User talk:Miden/Archives/2010

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Speedy deletion nomination of California Winter League (2009–)
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If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. Steamroller Assault (talk) 18:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Bosnian Hockey Leauge
Dobar dan! I saw your edits on the BiH hockey league. The 2002-2003 season is actually rather problematic. I have seen that data before - do you know where it is from? What is troubling is that the goals for and goals against do not combine to be equal. There is a total of 445 goals scored and 338 goals received. Therefore this is wrong as over 100 goals come out of nowhere. Also, where did you get the data for the playoffs? (LAz17 (talk) 03:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)).
 * Yes, the GF/GA info is very problematic. You probably have seen it on a thread on internationalhockey.net. The playoff information was posted on another forum as well, but it was unclear to me if this was original information or if these were reposts of each other. Be it as is, this is the best info available and in order to preserve any information for the future, I decided to post it in good faith, hoping someone who knows more will run into this. There is a guy running a Bosnian Hockey blog that I was thinking of contacting to find out more. Miden (talk) 04:29, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, please contact him.
 * Do you think that you could find out when HK bosna was founded? Ya know, HK Stari Grad was founded in 2002 I think. Interesting how it did not participate in the first season - or maybe it had a different name back then? I don't know.
 * Also, can you find something about the 2004-2005 season? Perhaps there were only playoffs. Check this out,, , it shows that there was something. Can you look into that?
 * To je to za sada. :) (LAz17 (talk) 05:45, 25 January 2010 (UTC)).
 * Hk Bosna was formed in 1980 . HK Jahorina and HK Champion ended shortly after 2003, according to that. So what happened to HK Ilidza?
 * Apparently, Ilidza still exists, but does not compete. See bottom of the interview with Ermin Hasović here. Miden (talk) 15:12, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Tuzla still has an ice arena. Idioti u banja luci su je imali dve godine i onda pustili da "ode"... how can someone ruin their ice arena? How? (LAz17 (talk) 05:54, 25 January 2010 (UTC)).
 * Too bad about Banja Luka, to have meaningful competition and development, this needs to go beyond Sarajevo. A great deal of Bosnian hockey history can be learned here. Actually, this is such a treasure trove of information that it should be translated into English and "wikified". I note that the page has been recently updated, after being the same for years. Some information can be found here as well. Miden (talk) 15:12, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * see this, they expanded the page... they say that this season this year is the first season. Am I crazy? It also says "ledena dvora Skenderija"... Skenderija... does this mean that the teams do not play in zetra? (LAz17 (talk) 06:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)).
 * Perhaps a page called "History of Hockey in Bosnia and Herzegovina"? (LAz17 (talk) 20:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)).
 * Skenderija is definitely wrong, maybe they had plans? Looking at Skenderija website, there is no mention of ice. I am not sure what the situation is there today, but I do remember visiting before the troubles started, Skenderija was iffy -- while it had sports facilities, they were used for exhibitions and merchandise stalls. Miden (talk) 15:12, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It says that they have an ice rink there, but I guess it is not used? What about that link that says that this current season is the first one? What about the 2004-2005 thing? (LAz17 (talk) 20:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)).


 * There appears to be an additional "cup" competition for the current season. Hm, Canada just lost to the US... (LAz17 (talk) 03:02, 22 February 2010 (UTC)).

Non Free Images in your User Space
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logo
Why did you change this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BiHHokejLigaLogo.jpg ? (LAz17 (talk) 04:31, 13 February 2010 (UTC))
 * I noticed the change on the website @ shlbih.com.ba while updating scores. It seems the new logo is part of the logo-overhaul they did and complimentary to some others as well.
 * BTW, great work on separating the seasons and setting up the team sites.Miden (talk) 05:04, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh, what do you think - perhaps it might be better to use the old one because it shows the writing in the native language rather than in english?
 * D'you maybe know the team colors, or where to get those? Also, perhaps it won't hurt to have an USD Bosna page? (LAz17 (talk) 19:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Man, I'd kill to get my hands on an image of the team logo of those defunct teams. Maybe they did not have logos? (LAz17 (talk) 19:27, 13 February 2010 (UTC)).
 * Re: colors, I do not think they are there yet, but maybe the pictures on their website could show the jersey colors? And as far as the old teams go, there is virtually nothing on the web about them, logo included. I am not local and have virtually no other way of finding out. As far as the logo of the league goes, I like the old one much better myself, but as wikipedia is fact-based, and they changed the logo, I changed it on the site as well. The new one is very generic indeed.
 * Good point about the USD; did not think about that. USD Bosna's significance is (historically) huge and if individual teams like HK Bosna and KK Bosna have articles about them so should the USD, tying them together; IMO.Miden (talk) 01:22, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, take a look at these... Partizan Belgrade and Crvena zvezda. They seem to have several of the clubs listed. So I figured on why not do the same. There are a few more that I have in mind. The problem is with the logos and significance. FK Bosna would probably be the ideal next choice. But the team plays in the 2nd tier BH league. So difficulty increases as we go to weaker teams and or less popular things. Hrvacki Klub for example seems though. But there is a logo. I figured to try to get as many as we can get logos - how does that sound? But, there has to be significance. I wonder if they will delete or keep the VK Bosna article... man I wish they do. (LAz17 (talk) 04:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)).
 * Here are the logos that I can find...
 * Gymnastics
 * Soccer
 * Wrestling
 * Volleyball
 * Swimming (LAz17 (talk) 04:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC)).
 * Apparently some jerks do not feel that VK Bosna should exist. Gotta make it more established... I made this, Olimpijski Bazen Otoka. The next step should be: Bosnia and Herzegovina Waterpolo League. (LAz17 (talk) 18:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)). I'll take care of it today I hope. We have a prototype- Montenegrin Water Polo Cup. (LAz17 (talk) 19:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)).
 * Lookey lookey... http://www.kkbosna.com/download/USD_Bosna_Monografijat.pdf :) (LAz17 (talk) 20:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)).

slohokej
Actually the slohokej liga was not formed in 1991. For years it was called the Slovenian Championship... and the championship still exists - and occurs after the slohokej playoffs. Slohokej is a new thing. The most vivid example of how it is new is that it does not include the best teams of slovenia. (LAz17 (talk) 17:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)).
 * You are right, I assumed it was the successor league, but after reading a bit on slohokej.net, they will have a separate championship thereafter. The articles could to be separated a bit better, IMHO. Thanks for point this out. Miden (talk) 18:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I made the same mistake. :( (LAz17 (talk) 03:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)).

Non-free galleries and Thomas Sabo Ice Tigers
Miden, the use of non-free images in galleries is not an acceptable use in almost all cases. There are a few corner cases where it is allowable, but this is rare. A very similar case to the one here had to do with former logos of TV stations/networks. This was heavily debated last year, with the result that such logos were removed from galleries. See Media_copyright_questions/Archive/2009/August for some of the debate. Where this really falls afoul of our policies is significance. The slavish reproduction of the logos with no discussion of them in any respect (and really, there should be quite a bit to necessitate their inclusion) fails to meet the bar of significance. If you have concerns about this issue, I recommend you take up the issue at WT:NFC. Please do not restore the logo gallery. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The logos still fail our WP:NFCC policy. I know this all might seem overwhelming, nitpicky, what have you. There's no intention to be so. The simple fact is we are primarily a free content encyclopedia. Non-free content has to jump through some serious hoops before it gets included here. The logos fail WP:NFCC #1, #3a, and #8. How? In all three cases of the additional, non-current logos, the logos are not mentioned by the article text in any way. Whether the logos were there or not, the reader wouldn't be missing that information. In fact, the information presented in the logos, the then-current name of the team, is already in the prose. That's a clear failure of #1. They fail #3a because the article has four logos being displayed to depict one team. In fact, we have three logos being used to support six paragraphs. If this sort of ratio were applied to New York Yankees we'd have literally dozens and dozens of fair use images on that article. It's just too much. They fail #8 because there already is a logo in the infobox, and in the case of two of three of the logos we already know they used a stylized tiger for their mascot logo. When the logo galleries were stripped from the TV station articles, some editors of those articles attempted to do as has been done on this article; sprinkle the logos throughout the text. That is helpful, but it is just one step towards things being right, not by any means the last step. In most cases, such logo usage can't reach the last step by way of failing our WP:NFCC policy. This is such a case. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You mention TV Stations -- can you please point me to the relevant discussions, so I can read up on the ideas and conclusions?
 * I do want to point out that while it is a PITA to deal with this and we may have a difference in some opinions, I (a) understand your position and know you do this with the best of intentions; and (b) appreciate what you do. Miden (talk) 20:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * In specific, I can't point you to the specific areas where the sprinkling of logos was frowned upon. It's buried in the debate on the galleries in TV stations at the link I put in the first comment in this thread. To your other comments, THANK YOU. Most everyone that contributes to the encyclopedia by (at least in part) enforcing our NFCC policy are treated with incredible disdain. See the bottom of this for a case in point. I appreciate your kind words! --Hammersoft (talk) 20:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

german league
I saw your edits on the german league. I could help... you could finish the seasons from 1994, and I could fix up the teams in the seasons before the current season. Howabout that? (LAz17 (talk) 20:57, 28 February 2010 (UTC)).
 * I plan on doing all DEL seasons, first in a basic format, then hopefully expand them a bit. The german original articles are first rate. It will take some time, as I have a couple of busy weeks ahead of me. Any help on the teams is greatly appreciated, I saw some of your improvements on the current teams. THANKS! Miden (talk) 03:06, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I will continue fixing up current team articles... not sure about creating new team articles. I'm kinda lazy to do that. :( Lazyness kicks in often, but that's thanks in part to other stuff that occupy me. :/ Anyhows, I expanded the former team section just now. (LAz17 (talk) 06:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)).
 * I have a problem with the article that you may have an idea to fix. The team list in the history is disruptive to the article flow, not to mention it is one of 3 team lists on the same page. Most of the information can be deducted from the overall standings anyway, but some is unique. I was thinking of adding an "F" column in the standings before 1995 and have "B1" and "B2" in the column to indicate a "Founding" member of the DEL and whether they came from the 1st or 2nd Bundesliga. Some other information could go into the table footnotes. Thoughts? Any better idea? Any help editing this more readable is appreciated. Miden (talk) 22:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I like this former teams section. I suppose you made it recently. I will make a new table down there... but... not at this moment- wednesday probably. Btw, they brought back VK Bosna. (LAz17 (talk) 05:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)).

bih
Check this out, http://books.google.com/books?id=huA3Y4pU9noC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=&f=false, page 476... a Bosnian hockey league season for 2004-2005... Mistake or not? (LAz17 (talk) 19:08, 5 March 2010 (UTC)).
 * Wow, good research. It certainly is not corroborated anywhere else and appears to be a mistake, but who knows. I have sent an inquiry to the federation at some point to find out more, but have never received an answer. Miden (talk) 19:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * What bothers me is that I do not find any information whatsoever from the main federation site of the supposed first season. Did it take place? About the second one - perhaps they only had finals? (LAz17 (talk) 21:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)).
 * There is sufficient evidence that the fist season took place; AFAIK the IIHF requires a nation to have a championship with at least 4 teams in order to place a national team -- and would you know it, they just did that.
 * However, there is no credible evidence that anything official took place thereafter. From what I can deduct, maybe some few guys played against each other, recorded some results and called it a season, but nothing that the IIHF would recognize.Miden (talk) 17:17, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

USD Bosna
I expanded USD Bosna, adding FK Bosna and OK Bosna. You might wanna glance at the articles and see if you can improve them a bit? These are still left. They may be a bit harder to get though, as there is less information about these clubs. Swimming club was established in 1960. I might do that one next. (LAz17 (talk) 21:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)).
 * Gymnastics
 * Wrestling
 * Swimming
 * You think you could make a page on this? http://www.plivackisavez.ba/index.php . It would help establish PK Bosna. Which is one reason why I made the Yugoslav Volleyball League page, to help establish the significant of OK Bosna. (LAz17 (talk) 22:27, 7 March 2010 (UTC)).
 * Here you go:Swimming Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina -- Interestingly, links to it already existed, but there was no article Miden (talk) 17:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

2009–10 Erste Bank Eishockey Liga season
Thanks for this article; remember, however, that articles must be referenced and categorised. Verifiability is one of our most important policies, and the creation of unreferenced articles can lead to blocks; far better to just reference them! Regards, Ironholds (talk) 17:04, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Norwegian Ice Hockey task force
Hi Miden... I noticed you edited multiple Norwegian ice hockey articles last month, therefore I was wondering if you would join the Norwegian Ice Hockey task force, which I recently created? I've already assessed almost all of the Norway-related ice hockey articles, but we need more members in the task force to update the template... Hoping for positive response! Take care. lil2mas (talk) 00:35, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

hey
I finally got some time to get some more stuff done here. PK Bosna is up. Not sure about doing the equivalent in Banja Luka... they have their own website so I am tempted. But anyways... USD Bosna is approaching its limits. Strangely I found two more sites that may be of help... and  - note the second one, it's so weird, as if it is just starting up. (LAz17 (talk) 04:03, 26 March 2010 (UTC)).
 * Huh am I crazy or did I figure out that I could go really crazy with this?
 * Karate, What logo is better - the one on the main page or theo ne in this pdf  ?
 * Athletic club has a logo... heck as time goes on I feel more and more crazy to keep looking for more... and voila... , their site,
 * Diving club...
 * Table Tennis..., alternative logo?
 * Wanna make a Bosnian Tennis page like you did with the swimming one? Here's the tennis association's official link, . (LAz17 (talk) 04:27, 26 March 2010 (UTC)).
 * No other Tennis federation in Europe has this. Honestly, I feel it it would be a stretch.
 * After redoing the DEL page and finishing all seasons articles, I have a case of Wikipedia burn out and will lay low for a while. My primary interest right now is Ice Hockey so when I come back I may continue working on Junior Leagues in the US, where I have done some work prior. Miden (talk) 02:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, one just gets overwhelmed eventually. After some time I just get tired of things here and then lose interest for some time. :/ (LAz17 (talk) 04:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)).
 * Hm, it would be good to have a wikipedia category for "USD Bosna clubs"? (LAz17 (talk) 05:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)).

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