User talk:Midgrid/Archive 8



Just in case you've forgotten....
...once you get back home from Uni at the end of the term, any chance you could look in your Autocourse 1995-96 to help improve this? ;) D.M.N. (talk) 22:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. By the way, have you ever thought of making some of the Forti articles into a good topic? I think this would be possible given how you've managed to get the Forti one up to GA. You're doing great work improving the articles related to Forti. ;) D.M.N. (talk) 16:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Okidokes. Just thought I'd point that out to you anyway! ;-) D.M.N. (talk) 17:11, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

You're Welcome
You're welcome; glad I could be of service, etc. I had fun doing it, though, so it wasn't really trouble. :) Vsst (talk) 05:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

2008 German Grand Prix Autocourse book refs
Would you mind putting the Autocourse book references for the "Standings after race" section on the 2008 German Grand Prix. I don't own a copy of this book. Thanks, Darth Newdar   (talk)  17:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Quite. I did mean Autocourse. Silly me! Darth Newdar   (talk)  17:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

WPF1 Newsletter (February)
– Cs-wolves  (talk)  10:00, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:F1 Newsletter Contributors
Hey there!

I noticed in the newsletter that you could contribute to the newsletter. I just wanted to know what this would involve, as I was intrested in helping. Thank you - DeMoN 2009  16:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Insane Idea newsletter (March)

 * I had fun doing it, but I don't know if the project produces enough material every month to make it feasible. We'll see. Aptery  gial  00:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Me again...
I am very embarrassed, but I made another mistake - while uploading the pics from this week's F1 testing at Jerez, I created a category for Toyota (Toyota RVX-09) that should not exist, as that is the name of the engine, not the chassis! I have already created the Toyota TF109 category, but I don´t know how to mark the RVX-09 for speed deletion - could you please do that for me? Thank you so much in advance! I have uploaded pics from the 2009 Force India and Toyota cars, and will upload a few more of those and the other cars/drivers over the weekend. Best regards, MorganaF1 (talk) 15:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Shannon Racing
A tag has been placed on Shannon Racing requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a company or corporation, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for companies and corporations.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. ww2censor (talk) 23:29, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

:O
Great plugging there, Diniz. ;-) I'll see if I can but for now I just wish to concentrate getting through this next fortnight before the end of term. *Sigh* I miss the old days of college where I didn't have much work and could edit Wiki for most of my time. :-( I was actually getting 'round to Tommy Bryne's article soon enough because hos story is a brilliant one to tell...just need the time. ;-) --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 18:53, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Re: File:Lewis rounds turn 2 Canada 2008 edit.PNG
Sure. It could do with a rename, though. My one concern would be that it doesn't have the colour (verve) as the Alonso one. We could start a trend, WP:F1 changes logo every year. Aptery gial  23:03, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. The idea that GP.com was not reliable or independent was just too much to bear, and I was annoyed that the speedy was so incorrectly applied. As for the countdown on my userpage, if you could come up with less dramatic wording, that'd be great (my edit summary says it all). I'm a little excited at the moment because my DYK of Force India VJM02 currently occupies the picture slot on the main page. Aptery  gial  01:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I improved the colour of the image. Aptery  gial  01:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Aagh
I've found testing ics that are so close to us being aloud to use them. Chubb enna  itor  14:53, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter, I've found a new set. Here it is anyway . Chubb  enna  itor  15:17, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. I said above. The link I gave you opens up better angles of some of the cars though. Chubb  enna  itor  15:24, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's okay, just there are some great ones in both. BTW: Why can't I see my images on Flickr when I search them? Chubb  enna  itor  15:29, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That set gives the Toro Rosso STR4. Chubb  enna  itor  15:58, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Bot
A bot has uploaded the last of the photos for the Catalunya test but hasn't removed the border. Did you get the bot in on this? Only asking. Chubb enna  itor  08:15, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

2009 British Grand Prix
I'm going to it for my Birthday. YYYYYEEEEEESSSSSS. Expect a lot of low quality pictures. Chubb enna  itor  19:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll probably meet LB22. He's going as well. I'll admit that it will be qualifying. Chubb  enna  itor  19:41, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Another kind of article
In light of your question at WT:MII about the 2008 cars being part of the project, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind having a shot at a car article (with your Autocourse) and see if we can work out whether promoting 12 car articles is a viable target. I'd be happy to co-write the article with you if that's what you want to do. Aptery gial  23:07, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Great! There's a couple of FAs and GAs that can be used as a base (Brabham BT19 and Brabham BT46, though they are radically different in structure). The car articles are also interesting from a sporting point of view because they give us a chance to tell a whole season from the team's perspective, rather than the whole field a race at a time. Aptery  gial  23:21, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * My suggestion would be something uncontroversial, probably a midfield car (Red Bull RB4, Toyota TF108 or Williams FW30). No point doing a Toro Rosso before a Red Bull, anyway. Aptery  gial  23:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

2008 German Grand Prix
Hi, I am currently sorting out the 2008 German Grand Prix article, and I would be interested in your opinions of the article. By the way, D.M.N has done the Autocourse refs for me.

Darth Newdar  (talk)  17:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks loads for your suggestions! I have done most of them, and I'll continue to do the others. If you'd be able to source McLaren's new car feature, that would be great! Darth Newdar   (talk)  12:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot for that contribution, it makes the whole background section look better! Just wondering, but are there any quotes from any McLaren team members/Hamilton/Kovalainen? They'd be good to have, if there are any. I have now done all the things you suggested to do, so I wondered whether you'd have a go at copyediting the article, and making the writing better? That would be very useful before I go to GAN with it. Thanks, Darth Newdar   (talk)  15:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for those quotes, I have used one of them as a quotebox in the race section. You can have a go at copyediting it now. Darth Newdar   (talk)  08:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

retiring
By. i've just had enough. Chubb enna  itor  21:22, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

BTCC - Wiki Help
Hi Diniz,

I attended a recent BTCC Media Day & have uploaded some of my images to Wiki Commons, I am looking for some help with putting these images in the right places on Wikipedia. I have seen that you have done some work with the motorsport/BTCC pages, I hope you don't mind me contacting you.

If you could help & show me how best to organise & distribute my images I would be most grateful. I will be attending a number of events this year taking (hopefully) lots of good photos, so it would be helpful if I knew what I was doing now rather than when I have a ton of images to sort.

I really believe in Wikipedia & Wiki Commons as knowledge repositories & would like to spread the wealth - as it were. If you can point me towards help that would also be most appreciated.

Appreciate you reading this.

Thanks Michael Darkroomwithaview

Wikimedia Commons conributions Wikipedia contributions —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkroomwithaview (talk • contribs) 15:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply & the template help. I'm still getting used to the way Wiki' works from a contributors position - sorry for not leaving the 4x~ last time.

I should have a load more pictures for Wiki Commons after next weeks BTCC 1st round at Brands Hatch :D

Cheers Michael Darkroomwithaview Darkroomwithaview (talk) 00:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Piccies
I've posted somethng on your WM account about photos. I have work to do and I was wondering, if you're available, whether you could upload them. Chubb enna  itor  16:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Re: Autosport
No I haven't. :( Could you by any chance scan the page(s) when you get a minute. No worries it you can't do it immediately, I'll probably be on "irregular sleep pattern" this weekend! Also, at some point, could you look in your Autocourse for 1995 European Grand Prix? Thanks. D.M.N. (talk) 19:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * E-mail sent. ;-)
 * Yep, sure, that's absolutely fine with me! D.M.N. (talk) 16:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I was just about to ask "Why isn't it in my inbox?". :P D.M.N. (talk) 16:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Recieved. Thanks. D.M.N. (talk) 16:35, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

As you have this week's Autosport, any chance you could enter it into the library with a brief description? Thanks. D.M.N. (talk) 20:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK. Fair enough. :) D.M.N. (talk) 21:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Any chance for a link? BTW, dunno whether you've noticed this or this in the past week which will almost certainly be handy for past race reports (as well as the other mini videos). Nice to hear that theme back. ;) D.M.N. (talk) 19:30, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Aaah. Some of the Europe ones been taken down. :( D.M.N. (talk) 07:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Colours?
I saw the way that colours had been used in the entry list of Indycar seasons to show the colour schemes of the cars. I decided it owuld be a good idea to move this across to the WRC, WTCC, V8 Supercar and BTCC pages. I never recieved any objections to these, with people making changes where and adding colours to new entries where neccessary, without any objections.

I added colours to the F1 2009 table last Friday, but they were hastily removed by LeaveSleaves, claiming they were distracting. I have not taken this up with him because I know he dislikes the idea, but I was wondering if you thought this was a good idea, to bring continuity amongst motor racing season articles, or whether LeaveSleaves' view was the general opinion. Thanks for your helpPetera93 (talk) 17:38, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I did what you suggested and raised my idea at WT:F1. However, I was able to make a verdict within an hour of the suggestion, this being a unanimous 'NO'. Thanks for your help-Petera93 (talk) 18:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Images
I've discovered this set sooo close to what we allow. Chubb enna  itor  16:51, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Monkey2funkey
has changed his licensing. Chubb enna  itor  06:38, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. I didn't upload all of them. LeaveSleaves uploaded all but two of which I did. Chubb  enna  itor  14:44, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Re:Insane Idea
I can't force you to do either one, it comes down to which one you find more interesting. The Renault is a good choice; it's probably the most interesting car from last year (what the hell did they do?) but Hungary was also fairly exciting (confusing for me, too, I was house sitting and the TV cut of the top and bottom of the picture, so I couldn't see the placings or the laps remaining). Assuming that at some point you are going to do both, I don't mind, but I am looking forward to seeing how a car article would go. Aptery gial  22:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm beginning to think they will have to included regardless, I can't imagine going to WP:FTC and saying we didn't do the car articles because they were too hard! Aptery  gial  23:06, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

If I'm brutally honest, I was hoping this would be met with a resounding "that's an excellent idea for an article"! I'll give Forti a PR within the next few days, and then it's off to the wonderful world of essays... Aptery gial  06:33, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello again. (I've gone mad)
One little niggle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chubbennaitor (talk • contribs)
 * I haven't done anything for that comment though. Plus I think he's made me go mad, yes, mad, thats a funny wrju isa't irx. Chubb  enna  itor  17:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)/~/~

Re: 1995 European Grand Prix - qualifying table
Looks good so far. I hate to be a pain, but any chance you could "transfer" that kind of table over to the Pacific and Japan articles? =O

Looking through, it looks good so far, one thing of mention though "Williams opted to race its FW17 chassis in "B"" is in the "Race" part, but I feel it should be in the "Background" part like how it was laid out in the Pacific article. Would be nice also to have a Benetton mention (or Ferrari) of any chassis developments if possible.

Just wondering, if they used the B car for Europe... am I right in saying they used it for the remainder of the season? If so, it'd be best to change the line in the Aida article just to note its the B version.

Also, FORIX requires log-in, which may prove difficult if at FAC.

Again, many thanks for doing this Diniz. :) D.M.N. (talk) 17:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, please change the tables in the Pacific and Japan articles if thats OK. Don't do the other 1995 articles as they haven't been fully-expanded yet. It's probably worth bringing it up at WT:F1; can't see anyone really disagreeing with it to be honest, but you never know. ;)


 * Ah, OK (regarding FW17B). Pitty there isn't anything in there about Benetton/Ferrari.


 * That was the first I'd heard of it as well.. never noticed it on any other site! I guess it's better than nothing, if it gets questioned we'll just have to say that no other sites have that data. Reliability shouldn't be a problem as its under the Autosport banner.


 * I brought up the point of event covers at WT:F1 a while back here and you raised it here. I don't think its needed, it doesn't really serve much purpose to the article TBH. D.M.N. (talk) 18:20, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think for the 1995 race report articles it is really needed, as it is focusing on one particular section... for the 1995 race reports the references are from a particular section in a book, not from all over (in most cases). D.M.N. (talk) 12:09, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, is the Barrichello/doping stuff related to this? May want to make a note of the other drivers' tested. D.M.N. (talk) 18:27, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing there's a page in the Autocourse which has a "summary" in it? If so, how could I possibly reference this? if there is a summary/team-by-team guide, could you tell me the page numbers which I'd need to reference? Thanks in advance. D.M.N. (talk) 17:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. Regarding the Pacific test driver... hmmm. This forum source points towards the test drivers being Katsumi Yamamoto and Paul Belmondo. The only article regarding Oliver Gavin/Pacific test driver I can find is this... but that appears to be for the 1994 season which doesn't help that much. I think the best thing to do maybe is just change it to n/a unless a (unlikely) concrete source comes to light?


 * Also, I thought I'd test something. Look at the references section in my sandbox. Note what I've tried and successfully done with the Autocourse refs? I might try and convert that over for the 1995 European articles, so each ref would be like for a specific section, i.e. "1995 Japanese Grand Prix: Qualifying" or "1995 Pacific Grand Prix: Hill launches tirade"... dunno how that'd work... I think it might work well... which may mean the refs for the Pacific/Japan articles may need to be restructured. Just a suggestion though. ;) D.M.N. (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Right, I'm going to test it out on the 1995 Pacific Grand Prix article... are the chapter names just generic (i.e. Pacific Grand Prix) or are they descriptive (i.e. Schumacher wins in Aida). If they are descriptive, what are the exact names of the last few race chapters in the book? Thanks. D.M.N. (talk) 17:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW, the sortable function for the "new" qualifying table layouts in the Pacific/Japan/Europe article [in sandbox] and Imola 1994 is dead, the function isn't working. Dunno whether it's a browser related issue (I use Firefox). D.M.N. (talk) 20:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll store the contents away somewhere safe. ;-) Many thanks for that, I appreciate it.
 * I'll remove the sortable feature, seeing as it appears that it does not work on some browsers. D.M.N. (talk) 20:48, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Oooh, that's good to know, that'll hopefully help us give a bit of variety in terms of book source: Autocourse, Formula 1 Yearbook and a few Schumacher books of my own... which, flicking through them earlier will come in handy for several rounds (notably Brazil, Imola and Britain). I've also got on my hard drive an Autosport edition from 1995... the Monaco GP Preview which has a handy feature of Mansell in it, so that can be put to good use. ;-) D.M.N. (talk) 21:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice memory flasback there. ;) "Unfortunately, Autocourse doesn't mention any of this." - well hopefully the other yearbook on order mentions some of it! Just as a FYI, you'll note me adding content to the Brazil and Argentine articles tomorrow as there is quite a bit in Schumacher's book(s) that I have which is quite relevant to these races. ;-) D.M.N. (talk) 21:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Looks very good... many thanks as always for doing this. As you've helped me expand it, if it does get a shiny star, you can display the shiny star on your userpage as without the Autocourse book... I'd probably be no where with this! I've made a few minor changes in your sandbox, mainly just for consistency (changing cite news to cite web; changing grandprix.com to GrandPrix.com/InsideF1) and so the minor niggles don't get brought up in FAC. I've also put some of the quotes either in quote or quote box, mainly so that they stand out more, I personally think quotes are one of the most important thing, hence why its good to have them in a quotebox. I think FORIX will pass RS at FAC, as its a "part" of Autosport... hopefully some of the things currently covered in the FORIX refs are noted in the Formula 1 Yearbook annual you've got on order! ;)

As far as I'm concerned, you can shift it into the main space (the only thing that needs adding is another paragraph or two in the lead). I'm not going to go for a peer review... simply because the process there seems extremely slow... I think I'll head straight for GA and on the basis of the GA pass (hopefully!) go to PR or FAC. D.M.N. (talk) 08:38, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

'94 San Marino GP Qualifying
I noticed with your new table was that Rubens Barrichello has a 14minute qualifying laptime. In the previous table, it showed him as not having set a time. Just wanted to check this out - I can't see how you'd be able to get a completed lap this long. AlexJ (talk) 18:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's strange because I'm pretty sure both those situations (receiving outside assistance and going through the pitlane) would result in the laptime being invalid. If that's what the sources say however, then I guess we've got to go with them. AlexJ (talk) 20:38, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

WPF1 Newsletter (March)
– Cs-wolves  (talk)  12:33, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

1995 Brazilian Grand Prix
When you have a mo, could you take a peek at 1995 Brazilian Grand Prix and add a bit of "skin" to it with detail from the Autocourse book? Kind regards, D.M.N. (talk) 21:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, does your Autocourse book above practice and qualifying times have something about the condition for each session "i.e. Conditions: Dry" or something along those lines? If so, what does it have for the Brazil sessions? And is there a bit in the book with "Rules and regulations"... need to source the practice and quali session length for Brazil, unfortunately Gale Force F1 only started up in mid-season so there's not much for the first part of the year! D.M.N. (talk) 17:22, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Okidokes. Thanks for that. :) D.M.N. (talk) 17:39, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That's good to know... I actually have 'Formula 1 Yearbook for the years 1997 right until 2007. Quite the collection. ;)
 * For Brazil 1995, I think I've done most of the Background... probably needs one or two extra bits adding, possibly quotes from the title rivals if possible. Europe 1995 BTW is up for GA, hopefully that gets reviewed sometime soon. As you may have gathered, I've grabbed hold of copies for the Brazil race (BBC) and Quali 1 (Eurosport) which is helping a lot. :) D.M.N. (talk) 07:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for finishing the Background for us... I'll trim it down a bit later. If there are important bits which could go in the season article, I'll move it from the Brazil article to the main season article. BTW, are there any quotes from Schumacher or Hill on how they think the season will go? Thanks, D.M.N. (talk) 08:10, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I've trimmed it down a bit also.. I've moved one or two bits into the main season article so I don't have to go round searching for refs if/when I revamp the season article. ;-) I've finished the "Practice and qualifying" section... the only thing that needs adding is a quick summary of the practice times from the Saturday morning session. D.M.N. (talk) 10:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing based on your recent edits to the Brazil article that you have your Autocourse on you? ;-)
 * If so, would you mind, at some point, adding a brief rundown for the Saturday morning practice session as the leading positions are not noted in any of the Eurosport commentary that I have. D.M.N. (talk) 21:16, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Good good! ;-) To be honest, my contributions will be very erratic as well come middle of May, go back to Sixth Form on Monday, then AS-level exams start middle of May, so contributions will be quite erratic. D.M.N. (talk) 21:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a good point, something which I'd previously not thought about. I think we should still keep it in one section (practice and qualifying) but just lay it out a little bit differently. I'm not sure if we should put down a running order though for Qualifying 1, because the reader may become confused with having two different 'sets' of qualifying times if you get what I'm saying. Hmm, not sure now. Maybe FP1 >> Schumacher detail in Qualifying 1 [just purely on Schumacher; without mentioning anyone else] >> Saturday Practice >> Qualifying.... I don't want to get into a situation where the reader becomes... confused with two sets of qualifying times; hence why the qualifying "times" are best summed up in one paragraph. D.M.N. (talk) 22:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Good work there; like the layout for the Practice and Qualifying section (although suggest this is just a one off case for this race). I don't think the generic description is needed from "Katayama and Mika Salo proved evenly-matched for Tyrrell............... in the second Footwork." for the second qualifying part as it isn't of particular noteworthy I don't think. I can see why the Barrichello bit is noteworthy because of the 1st Brazil GP since Senna death; and with the Simteks because of the red flag; and Fortis because its there debut, but don't really see need for the description involving Tyrrells, Minardis and Ligiers to be in there. D.M.N. (talk) 17:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

2008 Spanish Grand Prix
If you've got a mo, could you take a look at this little piece I scribbled off? Thank you dreadfully. (MII marches ever on!) :) Aptery  gial  14:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the copyedit. I'm a little off my feet at the moment with RL stuff, so I won't take the article to PR until next week. I don't know when you are planning on taking Forti to FAC, but if you wait until Tuesday I can finish off my copyedit. Good luck with the Renault article; I'm looking forward to finding out why they were the first people to put that hideous shark fin on the car (though they are by no means as culpable as Honda for those ram's horns...) Aptery  gial  07:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Just got my Autocourse, very inconvenient time, so you can let me know if you need anything from it. Aptery  gial  00:32, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Help?!
Hi

Apologies for this, I don't know if you're able to help me...

The article "Brook Johnston"... basically I'm pretty convinced is a complete hoax, not a real person. Similar opinions have been recently raised on a motorsport forum.

Hence, I want to see it deleted from Wikipedia! I put a article for deletion tag on it a few days ago, with an explanation. Noticed today this tag, along with other tags (including the hoax tag) were removed by an un-named IP user with no explanations. Can you advise how to proceed or help get this article deleted?

Many thanks Oli.meggitt (talk) 17:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Unlucky
Am I the unluckiest image uploader alive? every deal I've struck someone has uploaded the images before me. It doesn't help my internet didn;'t work. ann64 was my latest deal. Chubb enna  itor  15:57, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I can see that. Chubb  enna  itor  16:34, 21 April 2009 (UTC)