User talk:Minfremi

Moneynoob?
You changed your username from User:Moneynoob to User:Minfremi, yes? Just wondering.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 22:11, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

 ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 05:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Central Okinawan paper reviewed
First and second sentences:


 * "central Okinawan is one of the six seven languages spoken within the Ryukyu Islands spread throughout the East China Sea and the Pacific Ocean between Japan and Taiwan. Central Okinawan (from now on shortened to just 'Okinawan') itself is spoken in northern central and southern Okinawa and surrounding islands."

Japanese should be included here, making it seven. Northern Okinawa is where Kunigami language is spoken.

First sentence on page 2:


 * "Due to Japanese annexation and forced assimilation, the Okinawan language became to be was labeled a Japanese dialect, and so instead of it being called Okinawa-go in Japan, it is officially Okinawa-hōgen, or Okinawa-ben."

This is better wording of what happened.

Page 4, third paragraph, sixth sentence:


 * "Tableaux will be created to..."

I just thought the word "tableaux" was a little odd, but I wouldn't know if it was wrong.

And finally, your works cited. I noticed that you only used internet sources, half of which ("half" sounds inappropriate with a small number, hope I don't offend) were Wikipedia pages. Just saying, some professors won't accept Wikipedia and/or demand at least one book as a source, but I'm guessing yours wasn't a strict one. Overall a great paper!

Btw, did you ever come across any sources that basically "prove" that 沖縄口 is the correct Okinawan kanji for Okinawan? I'm in a dispute on Japanese Wikipedia over this.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 02:39, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


 * ニフェーデービル
 * Japanese
 * Yes, I seem to have completely forgotten Japanese in one of the languages spoken in Okinawa...
 * Tableaux
 * Even our teacher wasn't really sure on how to word this. I will leave this as is. What's in the "tableaux" itself was more important than how to call it, I guess.
 * Sources
 * As long as there was a source other than Wikipedia, it was fine. The teacher wasn't so strict on it. I did the minimum number of sources asked.
 * 沖縄口
 * Is this the thing on 口 vs 語？I actually have no clue. I only presumed that 沖縄口 is the kanji for Okinawan, considering ウチナー（沖縄） and グチ（口）.
 * Others
 * I'm was sort of surprised you didn't stop at the population of Okinawan speakers. I put down less than 300,000 but Wikipedia says 980,000 or something like that. I took the 300000 number from somewhere and it looked like a legit number, considering how Okinawan is endangered and the population of the prefecture.
 * Minfremi (talk) 03:06, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

沖縄口

 * It's complicated, it's about a babel userbox for Okinawan, but a user disputes the use of kanji in it. He acted like I made up 沖縄口, but after I provided a source he responded with this:
 * なるほど. 沖縄語というものの中に「うちなーぐち」という単語があって、漢字で「沖縄口」と書くと言うのが、ミーラー強斗武さんが仰りたいことなのですね. ここまでは把握しました.
 * さて、提示された資料を確認しましたが、その中で『どの漢字を使うかは自由ですが、問題は読み手がどう読み、どう理解するかです. 書き手と読み手が同じ情報を授受するのでなければ、意味がありません. 』という文言および『筆者は「沖縄（うちなー）」を使っています. 』という文言に注目しました. つまり、「うちなー」を漢字で書くとした場合、どう書くかについては、統一した合意があるわけではなく、各々の判断に委ねられるということなのではないでしょうか. であるなら、「沖縄口」と書いて「うちなーぐち」と読むのは個人の好みの問題であり、やはり一般的ではないということです. 前にも言いましたが、通常「沖縄」と書いて「うちなー」とは読みません. 「沖縄」は「おきなわ」と読みます. 何度言ってもご理解いただけないのでしょうか.
 * また、「うちなーぐち」というひらがな表記で意味が通用するものを、わざわざ「沖縄口」と漢字にする必要性を全く感じません. 「おきなわぐち」と誤読される可能性が高いです. ひらがなを必ず漢字に直さねばならないという法はありません.
 * 以上により、わざわざ「うちなーぐち」という言葉を漢字で表記する必要はありません. --Nanafa（会話） 2014年4月22日 (火) 05:34 (UTC)


 * Sorry for all the text, but yeah. And as for the numbers, I don't know where the article gets it's numbers, as the Japanese government doesn't collect census data on this. Surely there aren't a million fluent speakers, more likely what you had.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 03:28, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't really get what that person is saying... so is he saying that this Chinese phrase 我要一隻貓 would read わよういちせきねこ, because it doesn't. Okinawan and Japanese are different languages, so Japanese readings should not be used for Okinawan kanji use. If whatever I wrote made sense. Minfremi (talk) 03:33, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


 * He's making some kind of comparison that's irrelevant because they're different languages. He basically is saying that "everyone" should understand it (even though no non-Okinawan speaker can), and that using the kanji will confuse (Japanese) people who'll read the kanji wrong. I'm actually surprised that he didn't rewrite it in katakana. The Japanese version of Template:User ryu-1 is the main template we're arguing over, but ryu-2 and ryu-N are part of it and the Okinawan language article. He also removed 沖縄口 from the Okinawan language article although it'd been there since 2006.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 04:06, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

And I just lost the argument because there isn't an official standard for writing Okinawan...  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 17:02, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't know how scholarly or legit this source is, but JLect has Okinawan language as 沖縄口, along with two hiragana ways to write it. This JLect page lists many words and phrases from Okinawan, in hiragana and kanji if there is kanji for it, and half of the things have corresponding IPA, and definitions.
 * Japan needs to treat Okinawa similar to how the US treats Hawaii; being able to have an official language that is not de facto of the whole country.
 * Minfremi (talk) 20:04, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * User Nanafa should go to Chinese speaking countries and enforce Japanese readings to all the Chinese characters, or enforce Chinese pronunciation in Japan to get rid of said "confusion". If s/he does that then we'll listen to him/her. Minfremi (talk) 20:10, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I used JLect as a source, but still lost because of the standardization issue. And I agree with you, but neither will happen anytime soon. Look at the last section of my Japanese talk page if you want to see the results for yourself.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 20:47, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * もう双方の意見をとって片仮名、平仮名、漢字を全部書いたら良いのではないでしょうか. . . あるいは、漢字を使って、日本語での振り仮名みたく、漢字の上に沖縄語仮名を付け足したら読みは間違えないでしょう. ネット上は仕方ないから沖縄口（うちなーぐち）みたいな形で.
 * 全部仮名にしてしまうと、朝鮮で使うハングルみたく、読めるけど意味が漢字表記より伝わらないものになってしまうと感じます. 日本人として、中国語は読めないけど意味は伝わる、朝鮮語は逆に読めるが意味は伝わらない、と似ている、かな. Minfremi (talk) 22:22, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * You want me to say that to him?  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 23:02, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe yes, if you want??? If you are, you can reword things as long as the context stays the same. And don't use my username: I'm not an expert on Okinawan and I don't want to get in an argument (again). If you do, please link it so I can see what you guys write afterwords. Minfremi (talk) 23:09, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright then, although I probably won't get a reply for a few hours. I'll copy and paste so I don't screw up the meaning or something. Just check here later. TBH, this will probably just get me chewed out by Nanafa, but at this point is much better than nothing.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 23:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow, just wow.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 00:24, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I was surprised that he answered so soon, but damn is he pissed at me... He's using some strong Japanese.   ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 00:29, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * They're accusing you of using a machine translator. Is that true? They are now angry at how you edit Japanese Wikipedia without having an extensive knowledge of the Japanese language. Minfremi (talk) 00:42, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I know, and sometimes. I know hiragana and katakana, I understand Japanese grammar, and I know some basic kanji and a lot of place names. I have my dictionary most of the time, but for walls of text like Nanafa posts I'll use a machine translator to get an idea of it, then maybe look up the stuff the translator screwed up. I've only sent a few machine translated messages that're more of a "you're not worth my time" kind of thing than really communicating with him.
 * you know, all of my edits on Japanese Wikipedia either were minor and well within a basic speaker's ability (like changing a kanji or adding a simple sentence) or didn't involve any knowledge of Japanese (like adding a picture or editing a template written in Okinawan). As far as I know, he didn't have a problem with the use of 沖縄口 until I came along.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 02:17, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you got any notification or anything but I semi-translated your post on Nanafa's talk page, so he wont ignore it because it's in the Japanese Wikipedia's language. Minfremi (talk) 03:31, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks Minfremi.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 04:37, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh and he responded if you didn't already know. "Motherfucker" was just my first thought when he accused me of being a sock and reverted me, and I got blocked for it.  ミーラー強斗武  (talk) 05:00, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

メリークリスマス！
Just wishing you a merry Christmas!  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 03:40, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Merry Christmas to you to! Minfremi (talk) 00:13, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Okinawan as a dialect of Ryukyuan
Hey I noticed this as a section under Classification. I've heard some Japanese at JaWP make this argument so they could keep using 沖縄方言, but I don't think I've ever seen an academic use this. Even if this argument is made, it's just circular reasoning. Okinawan was the official language of Ryukyu, but if Okinawan is a dialect of Ryukyuan, then what is Ryukyuan? Did you have a source for this viewpoint? If so I definitely want to read it, and I guess the section should stay.  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 04:54, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I saw somewhere (I don't know where to find it) on Wikipedia some time ago, three venn diagram like pictures, each with a different way of classification, which is the reason why I put down Japonic>>Ryukyuan Language>>>Okinawan Dialect. I did not want to force one idea or leave an idea out, to be fair. I thought it would be best if we discuss pros and cons, affirm or deny ideas, instead of having a huge fight on the talk page. Minfremi (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Ah ok I guess that works.. But it still needs at least one source. I'll try looking for the images.  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 22:39, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

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 * Done
 * Minfremi (talk) 17:10, 1 July 2023 (UTC)