User talk:MinorProphet/Archive 2

Archive date 2011-September-25

Contents: 2009-September

Please don't make any changes.

Notes to self
Busoni Piano Concerto - improve Movements section

Old Talk page temporarily archived, link at top.

Find refs:
 * Gozzi 1792
 * Vollmöller (1911) OK:


 * Turandot chinesisches Märchenspiel von Carlo Gozzi; Deutsch von Karl Vollmoeller.
 * Published in 1911, S. Fischer (Berlin) 118 pp. Here

Blätter des Deutschen Theaters, 1. Jahrgang Nr. 6. Berlin, Reiss, 27. Oktober 1911.

Gozzi ( Karl Vollmoeller ) / Zur Turandot Musik ( Ferruccio Busoni ) / Chinoiserie ( Ernst Stern ) / Aus den Unnützen Memoiren ( Carlo Gozzi ) / Commedia dell' arte ( Charles Fischer ) / Busoni ( Stefan Zweig ) / Die Trennung. Nach dem Chinesischen des Ma-Huang-Tscheng ( Hans Bethge )/ Der Aktschluß ( Egon Friedell ). Geleitet von Felix Hollaender und Arthur Kahane.

Second-hand available here

Chapter 2 of Brautwahl

Cast of 1921 perf. of Turandot:

Musikalische Leitung: General-Musik-Direktor Leo Blech In Szene gesetzt von Frantz Ludwig Hoerth

Altoum, Kaiser ...Otto Helgers Turandot, seine Tochter ... Lola Artot de Padilla Adelma, ihre Vertraute ... Margarete Arndt-Ober Kalaf ... Robert Hutt Barak, sein Getreuer ... Eduard Habich Die Koniginmutter von Samarkand, eine Mohrin ... Genia Guszalewicz Truffaldino, Haupt der Eunuchen ... Waldemar Henke Pantalone, Minister ... Herbert Stock Tartaglia, Minisiter ... Desider Zador 8 Doktoren ...Fritz Schroeder, Louis Kinder, Max Forkert, Walter Kopsch, Franz Schmeling, Paul Senftleben, Ludwig Vorbrodt, Ernst Wickelbach Eine Vorsaengerin ... Marg. Jaeger - Weigert Der Scharfrichter ... Friedrich Luecke

Birmanischer Tanz in 3.Bild: einstudiert von Alex Hoffman

Also pics from programme,

Turandot Article - 1911 performance
Aargh! Beaumont just makes it worse!
 * Sorry! Don't agree. He just doesn't give us enough detail. But it's definitely a lot more than what Dent gives us. --Robert.Allen (talk) 23:12, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

As I see it, there were two separate sets of music: the unpublished incidental music in MS with 13 numbers, as Beaumont says on p.76, and the score of the Suite with 8 numbers. So:


 * How does Beaumont know there were 13 numbers?
 * You say on the Turandot talk page that "No sketches, manuscripts, or scores from the 1911 production are known. Are there any sketches/MS at all for the 1905 incidental music?
 * Yes, there are 34 loose sheets for the 1905 version in the Busoni Archive. (Kindermann: "Dieses Autograph enthält Skizzen, die aus Klavierauszügen, Particell- und Partitur-Fassungen bestehen und die in der Reihenfolge der einzelnen Suitensätze geordnet sind." and Sitsky: ""No title. Sketches for the Turandot Suite.") I assume Beaumont looked at the sketches in detail and got the info on the melodrama music and some bits which did not end up in the 1911 version. (I'm referring to the sung versions of the riddle answers; not sure how he knows this, maybe from a letter? I'm still searching for things.) Too bad he doesn't provide more detail. Perhaps it's published in some musicological journal, but he doesn't seem to provide enough footnotes, so it's hard to say. Autographs for Verzweiflung and Altoums Warnung are unknown, acc. to K. --Robert.Allen (talk) 23:12, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Would FB not have simply used the 1905 incidental music for the 1911 Reinhardt production? There wouldn't be any other sketches, MS or scores if FB used what he wrote in 1905. Just an idea.
 * I was thinking that somebody must have prepared some instrumental parts. Sketches would not be suitable. I was doubting they used the suite music unaltered, since it seems to have concert endings. On the other hand one critic complained that the music had too much concert-like character. It's hard to know. The English version is apparently all that exists to tell us about the incidental music version, and it may have been altered in other ways, not just a reduction, esp. since Busoni was so enraged by it. (It's the first time he even considers converting the music to an opera, where at least alterations would be discouraged.) The Swayne score does not seem to have been published, at least when B wrote about it, or I'm sure he would have listed it. --Robert.Allen (talk) 23:12, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * How did the 1913 London music director get hold of what Beaumont on p 84 calls "the score? Do we know what music is in the score which AB says is owned by Giles Swayne?  I wonder if it's just a reduced orchestration of the published Suite, which alone hasn't got enough music in it. That might possibly account for Wijsman needing additional music (Rimsky etc). MinorProphet (talk) 21:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps nobody knows where he got it. There are always going to be mysteries in life, especially when it comes to history. --Robert.Allen (talk) 23:12, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Since the music was under copyright, and the Vollmoeller translation/adaptation, as well, the English producer must have gotten performance rights and materials from perhaps the Deutsches Theater (Reinhardt) and/or Busoni. Just because these were lent, doesn't mean Busoni would have known all the details of what they were doing with them. Usually there is some sort of written agreement, details of which the English may have ignored, and which Busoni could have used as the basis for the suit. But as he said, the production would be closed before it would have any effect. I suspect he decided he had too many other things to think about to get involved in a lawsuit. Besides, as one of his letters says, the English production was a big success with lots great press and attendance. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:12, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I have been under the impression that there was a full set of incidental music. I may have jumped to conclusions over what Beaumont called orchestrated sketches. 34 pages for 13 numbers isn't a lot. My questions were aimed at trying to find out how they fitted in. So what do we actually have?

Does this seem right?
 * Sketches from 1904-5, some of which were used in...
 * ...The 1905 Suite;
 * Verzweiflung (no MS) and nothing else at all for the 1911 production;
 * The Swayne score of 1913, contents unknown; thoughts of opera in a letter to Gerda;
 * The opera, and Altoums Warnung (no MS) in 1917.

But Beaumont says that Busoni refused to change a note of the score for Reinhardt. Is there much evidence that he actually did make any changes or write any new music, apart from Verzweiflung, for the 1911 production? > MinorProphet (talk) 10:26, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I've made some changes to the article, I'm rather happier with it now. > MinorProphet (talk) 23:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Looking much better. Some comments:
 * Couldn't you cite the Bithell version for the dedication to Busoni?
 * The dedication of the Berceuse to Wijsman appears on a manuscript dated 5 June 1909, so wasn't it earlier rather than later? (see ms #3 in article on the Elegies)
 * Your summary of the situation with regard to manuscripts seems accurate to me, except did you mean to say there are no mss for the opera? If so, that is not the case: there are several for the opera.
 * The 9 November 1916 letter to Egon Petri (Beaumont, 1987, pp. 251-252) would be a great source regarding Busoni's decision to write Turandot. Perhaps the letter should be quoted. Busoni was more or less forced to write something else: the Zurich theater was unwilling to accept Arlecchino for performance without a companion work (see Beaumont's footnote). --Robert.Allen (talk) 11:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Changes incorporated. Yes, I had imagined there were mss for the opera. I found Ambros' Geschichte der Musik and added it as a source. I may add something on the masque characters. > MinorProphet (talk) 14:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The plot thickens...
From The Theatre of Max Reinhardt (1914) By Huntly Carter. New York: Mitchell Kennerley

Available here Accessed 24th September 2009

Pages 244-258, the scanning process mangles the numbers.


 * "Turandot"
 * "Carlo Gozzi's Turandot was first produced in Berlin in October 1911. A special number of the Blatter des Deutschen Theaters was devoted to the exposition of its characteristics and to an explanation of the Commedia dell' Arte. Among the contributors were Karl Vollmoeller, who revised the plot ; Ferruccio Busoni, the Italian composer-pianist, who took the comedy as the basis for an Oriental Suite, which was adapted to the Vollmoeller play by Johann Wijsman ; and Ernst Stern, who designed the scenery and costumes. Sir George Alexander was present at the first production, and secured the English rights of the play. Hence its appearance at the St James's Theatre, London, in an English dress provided by Mr Jethro Bithell for the occasion. As to the origin and character of the play : historically, it represents the final struggle to preserve the traditions of the extemporaneous form of drama which began with the improvised comedy known as Commedia dell' Arte."

This makes it sound as if Wijsman made the arrangement for the 1911 production, but you can't believe everything you read :~)

More... plus lots about Reinhardt's production and lighting, and how the St James' theatre wasn't really suitable for it..


 * The Music
 * Busoni's music was cleverly adapted to tell the story. The prelude introduced us to the scene, and the principal characters were given their themes. The entrances were announced, the Emperor's by a fanfare, Turandot's being given out by the 'cellos and basses, and so on ; the music thus moving and acting throughout the play. Much of the music is indeed worthy of quotation as an example of its successful application to the needs of the drama.

> MinorProphet (talk) 16:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Reading a little more closely, it sounds as if the author only saw the London production, so perhaps he assumed Wijsman had done the music for Berlin in 1911. Since Busoni himself wrote the article in the Blatter des Deutsches Theater, it seems somewhat unlikely that Wijsman was involved. > MinorProphet (talk) 17:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

No, he did see the Berlin production:


 * Turandot afforded him [Stern]the widest scope for the display of his immense abilities ; and one gathered from such slender evidence as the production of the play at the St James's Theatre offered, that he had made a far more important thing of it even than The Miracle. The evidence was slender, owing to the restrictions put upon the production by the St James's Theatre, to which I shall refer presently. Whatever pleasing results were attained at this theatre, I think far better ones were attained at the Deutsches Theater, where everything was prepared to receive the play and to give it the widest expression.

Would he have recognised the music as being the same as in Germany? Hum. > MinorProphet (talk) 18:38, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Nice discoveries! I suspect that it is just sloppy writing concerning Wijsman and the Berlin music. He intermixes information on the two different productions. He does confirm and add to our info that there was some music for the play which was not included in the suite. Are you opposed to splitting the articles on the suite/play vs. the later opera? I think it will be less confusing and better in the long run to split the suite/play off from the opera. --Robert.Allen (talk) 18:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

There is rather a lot of it now: I think a split would be a good idea. > MinorProphet (talk) 18:55, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I finally got to take a quick look at the book on Reinhardt, and the Ambros on the Eastern melodies. These are great finds! --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:07, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

From Sibley Alexander-Rideout Collection

Turandot, Princess of China by Vollmoeller and Bithell First Night Programme Produced only by George Alexander 18th Jan. 1913

Turandot, Princess of China by Vollmoeller and Bithell Souvenir Programme containing story and music Produced only by George Alexander 1913

Versions of the Turandot story
Some of this information could possibly be moved to the article on Gozzi's play, which also could be expanded using some of the background information provided by Beaumont. I'm thinking of the earlier Persian source and others. Also the derivation of the name "Turandot" (Chinese daughter). And a paraphrase of Beaumont's plot summary of the Gozzi play could be added there as well. (So much work to be done!) --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:29, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * PS - I have not found a copy of Gozzi's original 5-act Italian version. Have you seen anything? (There does seem to be a German translation of it.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:42, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

An advanced search of Google Books for books in Italian spews up this:

Gozzi, Carlo (1801): ''Turandot. Fiaba chinese teatrale tragicomica in cinque atti. in Opere edite ed inedite del Co: Carlo Gozzi. Tomo Secondo.'' Venezia: Giacomo Zanardi. Google Books: Full Preview Accessed 24 Sepetember 2009

Which is probably as close as we'll get. > MinorProphet (talk) 23:33, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Ashbrook and Powers, pp. 56-57, and a letter from Puccini to Simoni after reading Maffei, 18 March 1920: Here Yesterday I talked to a foreign lady who told me about a production of this work in Germany with a mise-en-scene by Max Reinhardt, executed in a very curious and novel way ... In Reinhardt's production Turandot was a tiny woman, surrounded by tall men, specifically chosen for their height; huge chairs, huge furnishings, and this viper of a woman with the strange heart of an hysteric.

So it doesn't seem as if Puccini actually saw the production at all. AAAArgh > MinorProphet (talk) 23:59, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well here is a riddle that definitely needs clearing up. Again very unfortunate that Beaumont has not provided his source for his information. --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:39, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I found this page on Google Books that confirms it is an error, apparently propagated by at least two earlier Puccini biographies, with citations to the bios. Perhaps the letter quoted by Ashbrook and Powers had not yet come to light when Beaumont wrote his 1985 book. In any case, it's hard to hold it against him, but very glad you found passage in A & P! --Robert.Allen (talk) 03:38, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Try not to let this kind of thing aggravate you. It's really part of the fun of doing this, and shows how it pays to be as thorough and as careful as we can be. Again: good job! You're quite the sleuth, Sherlock! (Also, I edited the page to reflect this new info; please check that it's OK. You may wish to add more, or remove reference to Reinhardt at all. I thought it worth keeping.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 04:00, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry, I really enjoy this sort of thing! I added the Puccini letter to the Incidental Music section. I'll move some of the material to the Gozzi Turandot article. > MinorProphet (talk) 12:52, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Turandot Suite (Busoni)
I'm drafting a new article, Turandot Suite (Busoni) in my sandbox (top of this page). Feel free.> MinorProphet (talk) 12:52, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we should probably not make any more changes to the Turandot article, but instead concentrate on moving out sections to their relevant articles. > MinorProphet (talk) 13:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * German Wiki has some nice pictures in the Reinhardt article . Can we use some of them? If so, could you explain or point how to do this? > MinorProphet (talk) 03:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Here are links to Commons and the Commons Reinhardt category. You may have already used links like this, but may not have realized that most such images reside in Commons. --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:33, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Vollmöller was an astounding guy! With his brother, he designed and flew a plane in 1910! Reinhardt was an amazing guy. Stern was fab. Sir George Alexander was just as workaholic as Reinhardt. Everyone involved is top-notch. I've been finding lots of great pix, especially Stern's designs. too many almost.

For interest: (see my draft article - it's getting far too involved in everyone.)

Reinhardt Archive Stern design Search for Vollmoeller All that's left pdf Great Race 2/3 way round the world  Canteloube rehearsing with Georges Thill. Love that monocle!

I'm away for a few days, back Friday probably. > MinorProphet (talk) 00:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Great job! I went ahead and created the new page (Turandot Suite) with some revised and expanded on composition, plus your great new material from your Sandbox, which looks pretty good to me already. I put an "Under Construction" template. (This is rather bold of me, I know, but I trust you will not mind!) Will miss you doing all the great work. I'll try to slog along... --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

1926 Turandot Opera at Salzburg
Here

Digital Object Title 	Turandot, cast photo Component Associated Performing Art 	Drama Component 	Dress rehearsal Production 	1926Aug14, Salzburg, Festspielhaus, Reinhardt ensemble, Turandot Piece 	Turandot Component Activity Date 	Unknown Component Represented People 	Thimig, Helene (Actress), Darvas, Lili (Actress) , Romanowsky, Richard (Actor) Component Associated Character 	Pantalone, Turandot, Adelma Component Represented Language 	German Component Associated People 	Strnad, Oskar (Costume designer), Reinhardt, Max (Director) , Paumgartner, Bernhard (Musical director) Date Object Created 	1926 > MinorProphet (talk) 20:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)