User talk:Miskin/Archive 1

Welcome; edit summaries
thanks for signing up, and welcome to Wikipedia. You will find that more polite edit summaries will do wonders for the chances of survival of your edits. Anyway, while Decius may sound aggressive with his threats against nationalists (not without provocation, I would add), he is entirely correct about scholarly opinion on ancient Macedon. So, if you want to have any effect on the Macedon article, you will have to cite recent academic research questioning or attacking the established view. dab (&#5839;) 09:49, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * well, afaik, the common classification of the ancient Macedonian language has nothing to do with a compromise between Greek and FYROM nationalists. It's simply what linguists came up with based on the glosses. If you have specific points you want to make, simply bring them up at Talk:Ancient Macedonian language, preferably referencing printed publications. As for Hellenic vs. Greek, if they are synonymous, how can using either be wrong? We do have Hellenes and Greek (name), and as far as I can see the information therein is correct, so it doesn't take a terrific amount of education to know about these names, you simply have to find, and read, their articles. regards, dab (&#5839;) 14:52, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I know the "standard meaning of Hellenic", it's just that I sometimes use it to include languages that were close to the Greek dialects, but not close enough to be the same language. See Talk:Stobi where about a month ago I explained how I sometimes use Hellenic. I use Hellenic sometimes because there is no other term to use, though I realize the way I use it sometimes is confusing. But it's not completely inaccurate. Hellenic in my English dictionary can mean "of or relating to the ancient Greeks or their language"---since Macedonian was related to Greek to a degree, I feel that I can use the term Hellenic to apply it to them, to a degree: the problem is, Hellenic also can mean specifically "Greek", which is not accurate to describe the ancient Macedonians, just as the Dutch are not Germans, though they are Germanic. I know about the origin of the term Hellene, which is common knowledge, and also I know the origin of obscure ancient Greek terms like "Karkinoi" (who were attendants of Hephaistos) if you want to get into trivia. Decius 15:56, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I suppose German, Dutch, and Danish are all just "dialects" of each other too, then, and not separate languages. I sometimes choose to use "Hellenic" the way "Germanic" or "Teutonic" is used, so don't get worked up. Decius 16:02, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You seem to realize that Hellenic is also a more loose term, that is why you prefer to change it to Greek. Or else it shouldn't matter to you if Hellenic is used instead. Decius 16:12, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The fact that FYROM Slavs take advantage of the uncertainty surround the ancient Macedonians is really not my problem, and that problem should be addressed to them. I'm just trying to make sure that the true history of Macedon is represented. To me, the fantasy-history that the Macedonian Slav nationalists have created is irrelevant: Macedonian was not at all close to Slavic, and the language was already extinct by the time the Slavs came, so they have no case in trying to make the slightest connection, and no serious scholar considers what they have to say anyway. Decius 16:34, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't hate my country.
Really. You mistook my harsh critisism of the Greek attitude for hate. I love Greece. I've just had enough with

1. the Greek attidude: "ela mwre, den bariesai, mhn to skeftesai" - "Oxi, re, 8elw na to skeftwmai!" "Kai ti egine poy exei 200 eurw h DSL? Emeis pernoume ta lefta mas apo to dhmosio? PW PW PW ENAS KOLOS!!!! Alla poy na paw na ths thn pesw, prepei na exei parei ena syntagma sto mouni ths! Ti elega? Ti mas les twra oti phges fantaros kai den plhrwnwsouna 16 mhnes? kai? Emeis na eimaste kala! den gamiete..."

2. the partisan hacks we percieve as politicians today.

Greek people are living in a dream, dude. We got to wake up. that's all. We're head-high in shit and dept, but we insist on kissing every fucking politician's shit-staned underware to get into the Public Sector (Dhmosio).

Later! And welcome to wikipedia! :D Don't forget to list yourself in the Greek Wikipedians page!

Project2501a 22:50, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Childish comment
You childish response to Dab at does not bode well for your future credibility on Wikipedia. Don't be surprised if people start treating you with suspicion.--Wiglaf 09:34, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see you've been doing it for some time. Did you call him gay then too? Lectiodifficilior

I think you're forgetting that my 'childish comment' was the answer to a personal insult (which I simply ignored). As for being treated with suspicion, if it concerns people who are already suspected by myself, then I couldn't care less. Miskin


 * I never insulted you personally. Your editing behaviour was poor from the beginning, and is getting poorer, I am sorry to say. Experience shows that such a pattern takes you nowhere, on Wikipedia, but it's up to you. Just bring us your references, anything else is just tedious for everybody involved. My view of the subject may be changed totally, with a single good reference, I don't pretend to be an expert, and I may well have missed an important point. My view will not be changed by childish bickering, and my expectations that you'll provide anything useful eventually aren't exactly increased by it either. dab (&#5839;) 10:31, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Alexander the Great
Hi, I saw the dispute in this article and talked to User:Lectiodifficilior. You can see what I proposed on his talk page.

Regards, Gilgamesh he 10:23, 25 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the NPOV intervention. User:Lectiodifficilior is prejudiced against everything I say.

Miskin
 * Please see my new proposal in the talk page. This dispute is leading us to a shameful article. Modern politics have to stay away from the article. Gilgamesh he 20:20, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Greek language articles
Your suggestion for a better-organised series of articles looks good. I'll be happy to help out, time and my limited knowledge permitting! rossb 12:31, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cuisine of Greece
Hi, I guess Miskin = 134.157.116.130?

Ouzo is a distilled beverage with anise, which clouds when water is added. This is essentially the same as Turkish raki or Arab arak. Of course, in Greece, "raki" means something else, namely an unflavored distilled beverage, also called tsikoudia, and similar to Italian grappa. But I think it is correct to say that Greek ouzo, Turkish raki, and Arab arak are basically similar, despite differences.

As for Greek cooking being "Mediterranean" rather than "Middle Eastern", I don't agree. Yes, Greek cooking has commonalities with other Mediterreanean cooking, e.g. Turkish türlü = Greek briami / tourlou = French ratatouille = Catalan escalivada ... not exactly the same of course. But it has even more in common with Middle Eastern cooking. Think of both the dishes and the names: giouvetsi, moussaka, doner / gyros, souvlaki / shish kebab, tzatziki, keftes, kima. Yes, there is pastitsio (pasticcio) from Italy, but most of the dishes come from the east.... --Macrakis 16:59, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Apantao sta anglika dioti i sizitisi axizi na katalavenete ap olous...

I agree that souvlaki/shish kebab, etc. are not typical Greek home cooking -- but I don't think they're correctly classified as "tourist" cooking, either. They are the typical food of markets -- traditional fast food as it were. As for tourlou, yuvarlakia, etc. I certainly consider them typical home cooking -- at least in my home! I'm not sure which "real" Greek cooking based on seafood and meat you're talking about that's Medterranean but not Middle Eastern. There are certainly Middle Eastern dishes that are not Greek, but then they are not universally Middle Eastern, either: falafel is Egyptian, tabbouleh is Lebanese, etc. Greek cooking is pretty widely accepted as part of Middle Eastern cooking -- take a look at the M.E. cookbooks. On the other hand, Mediterranean cooking isn't even very well defined as a concept: what do Moroccan, Catalan, Genoese, Sicilian, and Lebanese cooking have in common? --Macrakis 19:10, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"&#924;&#945;&#954;&#949;&#948;&#972;&#957;&#949;&#962;"
&#924;&#953;&#945; &#956;&#953;&#954;&#961;&#942; &#965;&#960;&#949;&#957;&#952;&#973;&#956;&#953;&#963;&#951; &#947;&#953;&#945; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#968;&#951;&#966;&#959;&#966;&#959;&#961;&#943;&#945; &#960;&#959;&#965; &#948;&#953;&#949;&#958;&#940;&#947;&#949;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#963;&#964;&#959; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Macedonian_Slavs#The_poll. &#935;&#969;&#961;&#943;&#962; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#968;&#942;&#966;&#959; &#956;&#945;&#962;, &#952;&#945; &#949;&#960;&#953;&#954;&#961;&#945;&#964;&#942;&#963;&#949;&#953; &#964;&#959; "&#924;&#945;&#954;&#949;&#948;&#972;&#957;&#949;&#962;". &#924;&#949; &#948;&#949;&#948;&#959;&#956;&#941;&#957;&#951; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#972;&#955;&#959; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#965;&#961;&#973;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#951; &#967;&#961;&#942;&#963;&#951; &#964;&#959;&#965; Wiki &#963;&#949; &#972;&#955;&#959; &#964;&#959;&#957; &#954;&#972;&#963;&#956;&#959;, &#945;&#958;&#943;&#950;&#949;&#953; &#964;&#959;&#957; &#954;&#972;&#960;&#959; &#957;&#945; &#956;&#951;&#957; &#964;&#959; &#949;&#960;&#953;&#964;&#961;&#941;&#968;&#959;&#965;&#956;&#949;. &#913;&#960;&#955;&#940; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#956;&#972;&#957;&#959; &#947;&#953;&#945; &#964;&#959; &#947;&#945;&#956;&#974;&#964;&#959; &#964;&#951;&#962; &#965;&#960;&#972;&#952;&#949;&#963;&#951;&#962;.

Notifying
You might want to notify User:Ninio and User:Vergina (though Vergina has a bad rep)about the poll also, etc. Decius 12:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

&#929;&#949; &#963;&#965;, &#956;&#953;&#955;&#940;&#962; &#960;&#959;&#948;&#945;&#957;&#940;?
&#931;&#973;&#961;&#956;&#945;, &#955;&#945;&#954;&#945;&#956;&#940;, &#956;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#960;&#941;&#963;&#945;&#957;&#949; &#964;&#945; &#948;&#945;&#960;&#945;&#955;&#955;&#972;! &#932;&#953; &#959;&#956;&#940;&#948;&#945; &#949;&#943;&#963;&#945;&#953; (&#960;&#959;&#948;&#972;&#963;&#966;&#945;&#953;&#961;&#959;)?  &#917;&#943;&#963;&#945;&#953; &#963;&#949; &#954;&#945;&#957;&#949;&#957;&#945; &#966;&#972;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#956; &#959;&#960;&#945;&#948;&#953;&#954;&#972;? Chronographos 14:58, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Panathinaikos, esy? Den eimai se forum. Syggnomi alla den exo Elliniki grammatoseira edw pera pou vriskomai.


 * &#904;&#955;&#945; &#961;&#949; &#963;&#965;&#956;&#946;&#940;&#950;&#949;&#955;&#949;! &#913;&#957; &#952;&#949;&#962; &#947;&#961;&#940;&#968;&#959;&#965; &#963;&#964;&#959; &#966;&#972;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#956; &#964;&#969;&#957; GWF, &#954;&#945;&#953; '&#948;&#959;&#960;&#959;&#943;&#945; &#956;&#949;, &#947;&#945;&#956;&#974; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#932;&#963;&#959;&#965;&#954;&#945;&#955;&#940;&#948;&#949;&#962; &#960;&#959;&#965; &#941;&#967;&#959;&#965;&#956;&#949; &#956;&#960;&#955;&#941;&#958;&#949;&#953;! Chronographos 15:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * &#914;&#945;&#950;&#941;&#967;&#945; &#963;&#949; &#952;&#941;&#955;&#969;, &#947;&#961;&#942;&#947;&#959;&#961;&#959;, &#954;&#945;&#953; &#952;&#945; &#963;'&#964;&#959;&#957; &#954;&#940;&#957;&#969; &#949;&#947;&#974; &#964;&#959; &#957;&#945;&#954;&#953;&#956;&#959;&#973; &#964;&#959;&#957; &#931;&#959;&#961;&#943;&#957; &#924;&#945;&#964;&#941;&#953; &#957;&#945; &#964;&#959;&#957; &#954;&#955;&#945;&#953;&#957;' &#959;&#953; &#961;&#941;&#947;&#947;&#949;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;&#941;&#967;&#949;&#967;&#949; Chronographos 15:34, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * &#902;&#957;&#964;&#949; &#961;&#949;, &#947;&#961;&#940;&#966;&#964;&#951;&#954;&#949;&#962;? &#924;&#949; &#964;&#953; &#957;&#953;&#954;?

Syggnomi, eixa fygei apo ton ypologisti. Oraia ta eipes sto arthro "arxaia makedoniki". Exoun parei aera ta malakistiria. Miskin 08:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * &#905;&#961;&#949;&#956;&#945;&#945;&#945;&#945;&#945;&#945; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#964;' &#945;&#965;&#964;&#953;&#940; &#941;&#967;&#959;&#965;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#943;&#967;&#959;&#965;&#962;. &#915;&#961;&#940;&#966;&#964;&#951;&#954;&#949;&#962; &#963;&#964;&#959; GWF &#966;&#972;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#956;?

Den graftika akoma. Eixa akousta gia ena authentiko makedoniko keimeno kai to epsaxna kairo, opote i paremvasi sou mou irthe kouti. :) Miskin 09:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * &#925;&#945;&#953; &#945;&#955;&#955;&#940; &#960;&#974;&#962; &#952;&#945; &#963;&#965;&#957;&#957;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#947;&#953;&#972;&#956;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#949; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#957;&#945; &#956;&#951; &#956;&#945;&#962; &#960;&#945;&#943;&#961;&#957;&#959;&#965;&#957; &#963;&#973;&#961;&#956;&#945; &#964;&#945; &#954;&#959;&#965;&#964;&#972;&#966;&#961;&#945;&#947;&#954;&#945;?

Eimai sigouros pos tha yparxoun ki alloi tropoi. :) Miskin 10:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * &#928;&#949;&#962; &#941;&#957;&#945;&#957;!

Sto forum tha mas vlepoun kai asxetoi.


 * &#963;&#964;&#959; &#966;&#972;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#956; &#941;&#967;&#949;&#953; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#963;&#973;&#963;&#964;&#951;&#956;&#945; &#945;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#955;&#955;&#945;&#947;&#942;&#962; &#953;&#948;&#953;&#969;&#964;&#953;&#954;&#974;&#957; &#956;&#951;&#957;&#965;&#956;&#940;&#964;&#969;&#957;! &#953;&#961;&#954; &#948;&#949;&#957; &#941;&#967;&#969;. "&#917;&#923;&#932;&#913;" &#941;&#967;&#969; &#954;&#940;&#956;&#960;&#959;&#963;&#945;: &#948;&#959;&#954;&#943;&#956;&#945;&#963;&#949; &#964;&#959; trelomagkas-&#963;&#964;&#959;-"&#954;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#972;-&#964;&#945;&#967;&#965;&#948;&#961;&#959;&#956;&#949;&#943;&#959;" ;)

En taksei, m'epeises. Tha grafto kai tha sou po to onoma molis gyriso giati prepei na fygo twra. 134.157.119.194 12:11, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * &#946;&#961;&#949; &#956;&#940;&#955;&#945;&#958;, &#964;&#953; &#964;&#963;&#945;&#956;&#960;&#959;&#965;&#957;&#940;&#962; &#963;&#964;&#959; &#940;&#955;&#955;&#959; &#956;&#945;&#947;&#945;&#950;&#943;? &#916;&#949;&#957; &#960;&#945;&#943;&#961;&#957;&#959;&#965;&#957;&#949; &#960;&#961;&#941;&#966;&#945; &#957;&#959;&#956;&#943;&#950;&#949;&#953;&#962;?  &#931;&#946;&#942;&#963;&#964;&#945; &#960;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#952;&#949;&#956;&#940; &#963;&#949;! :-&#929;&#929;&#929; (&#932;&#940;&#954;&#951;&#962; &#934;&#973;&#963;&#963;&#945;&#962;) &#922;&#945;&#953; &#957;&#945; &#964;&#950;&#953;&#957;&#940;&#946;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#961;&#947;&#954;&#972; &#972;&#960;&#969;&#962; &#949;&#947;&#974; &#947;&#953;&#945;&#964;&#943; &#952;&#945; &#956;&#945;&#962; &#960;&#940;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#957; &#963;&#973;&#961;&#956;&#945;&#945;&#945;&#945;&#945;

Ela more siga. Akoma kai na katalaboune ti peirazei, den eipame kai tipota. Etsi ki allios kseroun pos eimaste kai oi dyo Romioi. Miskin 14:41, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * &#922;&#913;&#921; &#932;&#913; &#913;&#933;&#932;&#921;&#913; &#917;&#935;&#927;&#933;&#925; &#932;&#927;&#921;&#935;&#927;&#933;&#931;

&#924;&#949; &#964;&#959; &#948;&#972;&#957;&#960;&#945;&#961; &#960;&#959;&#965; &#957;&#969;&#946;&#945;&#943;&#949;&#960;&#949;&#956; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#956;&#951; &#958;&#949;&#964;&#949;&#964;&#961;&#959;, &#945;&#955;&#955;&#940; &#956;&#949; &#964;&#953;&#962; &#955;&#945;&#954;&#945;&#956;&#943;&#949;&#962; &#960;&#959;&#965; &#964;&#949;&#955;&#941; &#952;&#945; &#963;&#945;&#962; &#961;&#959;&#965;&#957;&#960;&#940; &#966;&#945;&#960;&#961;&#941;.&#923;&#974;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#967;&#945;&#955;&#945; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#956;&#949;&#964;&#949;&#954;&#940; &#972;,&#964;&#953; &#964;&#949;&#956;&#960;&#959;&#961;&#949;&#943;, &#945;&#955;&#955;&#940; &#969;&#963;&#959;&#960; &#956;&#949;&#955;&#949; &#963;&#964;&#951; &#957;&#953;&#954;&#953;&#963;&#945;&#955;&#959; &#955;&#945;&#967;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#945;&#945;&#945;&#940;!!!&#932;&#949;&#945;&#957; &#947;&#949;&#953;&#940; &#955;&#953;&#957;&#949;&#963;&#946;&#940; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#956;&#951; &#964;&#949;&#958;&#949;&#967;&#957;&#940;, &#929;&#951;&#945;, &#963;&#959;&#965;&#952;&#965;&#956;&#953; &#956;&#953;&#945; &#951;&#950;&#969; &#950;&#953;&#956;&#945; &#963;&#959;&#965;!!!&#913;&#963;&#963;&#949;&#959;&#948;&#965;&#962;.
 * &#927;&#965;&#963;&#964;, &#946;&#961;&#969;&#956;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#959;&#973;&#955;&#951;&#954;&#959; :-&#929;&#929;&#929;&#929; (&#928;&#955;&#955;&#955;&#955;&#955;&#940;&#954;&#945; &#963;&#949; &#954;&#940;&#957;&#969;, &#966;'&#955;&#945;&#961;&#940;&#954;') :-) Chronographos 12:35, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) (&#964;&#959; &#945;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#943;&#959; &#949;&#943;&#957;&#945;&#953; &#960;&#959;&#965; &#947;&#961;&#940;&#966;&#949;&#953; &#959; &#924;&#945;&#954;&#945;&#961;&#972;&#957;&#953;&#945;&#962; &#924;&#943;&#963;&#954;&#959;: &#947;&#961;&#943;&#954;&#955;&#953;&#962; "&#947;&#953;&#945; &#957;&#945; &#956;&#951; &#956;&#945;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#955;&#940;&#946;&#959;&#965;&#957;"!) &#929;&#949; &#913;&#954;&#940;&#954;&#953;&#949;, &#956;&#951;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#961;&#966;&#974;&#957;&#949;&#963;&#945;&#953; &#956;&#945;&#956;&#974; &#964;&#959;&#957; &#928;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#955;&#942; &#922;&#969;&#957;&#963;&#964;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#953;&#957;&#943;&#948;&#951; &#956;&#959;&#965; &#956;&#941;&#963;&#945;!
 * &#924;&#949; &#940;&#955;&#955;&#945; &#955;&#972;&#947;&#953;&#945;, &#960;&#961;&#941;&#960;&#949;&#953; &#957;&#945; &#949;&#943;&#956;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#949; &#916;&#941;&#955;&#955;&#949;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#972;&#967;&#953; &#922;&#959;&#955;&#964;&#963;&#943;&#948;&#949;&#962; &#963;&#964;&#951;&#957; &#940;&#956;&#965;&#957;&#945;, &#947;&#953;&#945;&#964;&#943; &#963;&#964;&#959; Champions' League &#948;&#949;&#957; &#941;&#967;&#949;&#953; &#932;&#949;&#946;&#949;&#954;&#941;&#955;&#951;&#948;&#949;&#962; &#957;&#945; &#954;&#940;&#957;&#959;&#965;&#957; &#964;&#945; &#963;&#964;&#961;&#945;&#946;&#940; &#956;&#940;&#964;&#953;&#945; &#963;&#964;&#945; &#956;&#960;&#949;&#957;&#940;&#955;&#957;&#964;&#953;&#945; :-) Chronographos 12:53, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

&#926;&#941;&#961;&#949;&#964;&#949; &#945;&#953;&#963;&#952;&#940;&#957;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953; &#955;&#943;&#947;&#959; &#960;&#949;&#961;&#943;&#949;&#961;&#947;&#945; &#947;&#953;&#945;&#964;&#943; &#964;&#959; &#952;&#941;&#956;&#945;, &#945;&#957; &#948;&#949;&#943;&#964;&#949; &#964;&#953;&#962; &#963;&#965;&#950;&#951;&#964;&#942;&#963;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#958;&#949;&#954;&#943;&#957;&#951;&#963;&#949; &#945;&#960;&#972; &#949;&#956;&#941;&#957;&#945;, &#972;&#964;&#945;&#957; &#949;&#943;&#948;&#945; &#964;&#953; &#960;&#945;&#960;&#945;&#964;&#950;&#953;&#955;&#943;&#954;&#953;&#945; &#947;&#961;&#940;&#966;&#945;&#957;&#949; &#959;&#953; &#964;&#973;&#960;&#959;&#953;.&#927;&#956;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#947;&#974; &#960;&#969;&#962; &#948;&#949;&#957; &#941;&#967;&#969; &#945;&#960;&#949;&#961;&#953;&#972;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#962; &#947;&#957;&#974;&#963;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#963;&#964;&#959; &#952;&#941;&#956;&#945; (&#941;&#957;&#945; &#946;&#953;&#946;&#955;&#943;&#959; &#964;&#959;&#965; &#924;&#960;&#945;&#956;&#960;&#953;&#957;&#953;&#974;&#964;&#951;, &#954;&#945;&#957;&#945; &#948;&#965;&#959; &#945;&#961;&#952;&#961;&#945;,&#954;&#964;&#955;), &#972;&#956;&#969;&#962; &#959;&#953; &#964;&#973;&#960;&#959;&#953;, &#949;&#953;&#948;&#953;&#954;&#940; &#959; &#951;&#956;&#943;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#959;&#962; &#945;&#965;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#959;&#973;&#947;&#947;&#961;&#959;&#962; &#949;&#943;&#957;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#958;&#945;&#953;&#961;&#949;&#964;&#953;&#954;&#940; &#945;&#955;&#955;&#945;&#950;&#972;&#957;&#949;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#954;&#945;&#964;&#949;&#953;&#955;&#955;&#951;&#956;&#941;&#957;&#959;&#953;, &#966;&#964;&#940;&#963;&#945;&#957;&#949; &#963;&#964;&#959; &#963;&#951;&#956;&#949;&#943;&#959; &#957;&#945; &#956;&#951;&#957; &#945;&#957;&#945;&#966;&#941;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#957; &#964;&#959; &#954;&#961;&#940;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#969;&#962; &#949;&#955;&#955;&#951;&#957;&#953;&#954;&#972;.&#913;! &#954;&#945;&#953; &#954;&#940;&#964;&#953; &#940;&#955;&#955;&#959;, &#959;&#953; &#963;&#954;&#959;&#960;&#953;&#945;&#957;&#959;&#943; &#963;&#967;&#949;&#948;&#953;&#940;&#950;&#959;&#965;&#957; &#957;&#945; &#949;&#960;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#955;&#940;&#946;&#959;&#965;&#957; &#964;&#951; &#968;&#951;&#966;&#959;&#966;&#959;&#961;&#943;&#945; &#963;&#964;&#959; &#956;&#941;&#955;&#955;&#959;&#957;, &#959;&#960;&#972;&#964;&#949; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#955;&#945;&#946;&#945;&#943;&#957;&#949;&#964;&#949; &#959;&#964;&#953; &#965;&#960;&#940;&#961;&#967;&#949;&#953; &#954;&#943;&#957;&#948;&#965;&#957;&#959;&#962; &#957;&#945; &#941;&#967;&#959;&#965;&#956;&#949; &#940;&#961;&#952;&#961;&#945; &#960;&#967; &#956;&#945;&#954;&#949;&#948;&#972;&#957;&#949;&#962;,&#956;&#945;&#954;&#949;&#948;&#959;&#957;&#953;&#954;&#942; &#947;&#955;&#974;&#963;&#963;&#945;,&#960;&#959;&#955;&#953;&#964;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#972;&#962; &#954;&#964;&#955; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#957;&#945; &#945;&#957;&#945;&#966;&#941;&#961;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#963;&#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#947;&#949;&#943;&#964;&#959;&#957;&#949;&#962;, &#957;&#945; &#956;&#951;&#957; &#960;&#969; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#947;&#953;&#945; &#964;&#945; &#940;&#961;&#952;&#945; &#960;&#959;&#965; &#945;&#966;&#959;&#961;&#959;&#973;&#957; &#956;&#945;&#954;&#949;&#948;&#972;&#957;&#949;&#962; &#946;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#955;&#949;&#943;&#962;,&#964;&#951; &#956;&#945;&#954;&#949;&#948;&#959;&#957;&#953;&#954;&#942; &#966;&#940;&#955;&#945;&#947;&#947;&#945;,&#954;&#964;&#955;. &#927;&#948;&#965;&#963;&#963;&#941;&#945;&#962;
 * &#916;&#949;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#955;&#945;&#946;&#945;&#943;&#957;&#969;, &#948;&#951;&#955;&#945;&#948;&#942; &#949;&#948;&#974; &#956;&#941;&#963;&#945; &#951; &#945;&#955;&#942;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#945; &#945;&#960;&#959;&#966;&#945;&#963;&#943;&#950;&#949;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#946;&#940;&#963;&#949;&#953; &#948;&#951;&#956;&#959;&#968;&#951;&#966;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#940;&#964;&#969;&#957;? Chronographos 01:17, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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 * &#934;&#943;&#955;&#949; &#956;&#959;&#965; &#972;&#963;&#959; &#954;&#940;&#957;&#949;&#953; &#954;&#959;&#965;&#956;&#940;&#957;&#964;&#959; &#959; &#954;&#940;&#952;&#949; &#931;&#945;&#959;&#965;&#961;&#943;&#948;&#951;&#962; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#954;&#959;&#960;&#942; &#948;&#949;&#957; &#952;&#945; &#948;&#949;&#953;&#962;. &#922;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#943;&#957;&#945;&#953; &#954;&#961;&#943;&#956;&#945; &#947;&#953;&#945;&#964;&#943;, &#945;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#946;&#940;&#950;&#949;&#955;&#959;&#962;, &#964;&#951;&#957; &#959;&#956;&#940;&#948;&#945; &#964;&#959;&#965; '80 (&#922;&#959;&#973;&#951;&#962;, &#914;&#941;&#957;&#959;&#962;, &#924;&#960;&#945;&#955;&#955;&#942;&#962;) &#964;&#951;&#957; &#955;&#940;&#964;&#961;&#949;&#965;&#945;.  &#932;&#941;&#955;&#959;&#962; &#960;&#940;&#957;&#964;&#969;&#957;.  &#927; &#951;&#956;&#943;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#959;&#962; &#960;&#959;&#965; &#955;&#949;&#962;, &#945;&#957; &#956;&#953;&#955;&#940;&#956;&#949; &#947;&#953;&#945; &#964;&#959; &#943;&#948;&#953;&#959; &#960;&#961;&#972;&#963;&#969;&#960;&#959;, &#948;&#949;&#957; &#956;&#959;&#965; &#966;&#945;&#943;&#957;&#949;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#964;&#972;&#963;&#959; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#954;&#945;&#964;&#949;&#953;&#955;&#951;&#956;&#956;&#941;&#957;&#959;&#962;.  &#922;&#940;&#957;&#969; &#955;&#940;&#952;&#959;&#962;?  Chronographos 12:01, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Poios einai o imiaimos re paidia? Miskin 29 June 2005 04:29 (UTC)

Πειράζει που έκανα τη Μολδοβλάχα νιμού της λάσπης?
Μουέεεεεεεεεεχεχεχεχεχεχεχεχεχε Chronographos 28 June 2005 10:55 (UTC)
 * Χρονογράφε, μπορεί να είσαι υπερβολικός ώρες-ώρες, αλλά το χιούμορ σου είναι άπαιχτο. Γέλασα με την ψυχή μου. Άντε, πολύ εξουσία μάς το παίζει τώρα τελευταία το αρωμουνίδιο, τύπου boyar μη χέσω.--Theathenae 29 June 2005 11:26 (UTC)
 * Δεν ξέρει με τι παλιά πουτάνα έχει μπλέξει, ο ψωμόλυσσας :-}} Chronographos 29 June 2005 11:35 (UTC)
 * Διάβασες την ετυμολογία μου για τον Δέκιο Μάξιμο Χωρίς-γουρούνια? Μα που τα σκέφτομαι ο παλιο-μπιπ!  Chronographos 29 June 2005 11:57 (UTC)
 * Πού, καλέ;--Theathenae 29 June 2005 13:51 (UTC)
 * Κοίτα καλύτερα Chronographos 29 June 2005 13:52 (UTC)
 * Ναι, αλλά πού όμως; Αλήθεια, πού έμαθες τέτοια αγγλικά;--Theathenae 29 June 2005 14:01 (UTC)
 * Στο τέλος της "Φοινικικής Επιγραφής". Αγγλικά έμαθα στο σχολείο μου.  Αργότερα έζησα στην Αμερική, αλλά εκεί χειροτέρεψαν :-} Chronographos 29 June 2005 14:08 (UTC)
 * Από τα καλά σου, όχι τα καλύτερα. ;)--Theathenae 29 June 2005 14:33 (UTC)

Φίλε Ακάκιε, δεν είσαι στα καλά σου
Τσιμπάς συνεχώς στις παγίδες που σου στήνουν τα δαπαλλό, τους δίνεις επιχειρήματα χωρίς καν να το καταλαβαίνεις, με άλλα λόγια ενώ ισχυρίζεσαι ότι είσαι Παναθηναϊκός, έχεις κλασσική συμπεριφορά γαύρου. Σύνελθε και δούλευε μεθοδικά, μη σε συνέλθω εγώ. Φιλικά, αλλά με ελάχιστη υπομονή: Chronographos 29 June 2005 13:56 (UTC)

Ti ekana o ermos? Miskin 29 June 2005 14:06 (UTC)
 * Όπως είπα: χωρίς καν να το καταλαβαίνεις. Chronographos 29 June 2005 14:17 (UTC)

Afou den mou eksigeis tha ypotheso pos den yparxei provlima. Miskin 29 June 2005 16:18 (UTC)
 * Τι να σου εξηγήσω ρε συ, αφού πας και τα μαρτυράς από μόνος σου. Δεν είναι εδώ κατάλληλο μέρος.  ΚΑΙ ΤΑ ΑΥΤΙΑ ΕΧΟΥΝ ΤΟΙΧΟΥΣ

Civility
I'm pretty sure that "ignorant nationalist" would fall under the label of a personal attack. I invite you to review that page as well as Civility in order to avoid unnecessary trouble. siafu 29 June 2005 19:56 (UTC)

I hope you're not serious about this. Are you manually picking on "personal attacks" or do you have a bot to do it for you? Either way, something needs reprogramming. Miskin 29 June 2005 20:18 (UTC)


 * If you prefer to keep on going the way you are, I'm in no position to stop you. I'm just pointing out that calling those you disagree with "ignorant nationalist" is against wikipedia policy, not to mention a very poor strategy for improving articles.  It doesn't cost you anything not to do it. siafu 29 June 2005 21:41 (UTC)

On the Greek language
I'm surprised that you want to remove Mycenean as one of the stages of the language - and I note that in your plan for the articles you did indeed have this as one of the main stages. In point of fact it doesn't make a great deal of difference, except that the main article does in fact go on to mention Mycenean, so to say that at the outset that it doesn't deal with Mycenean is not actually correct. I would prefer leaving the Mycenean reference in, since this is after all a documented phase of the language (even if sparsely documented), whereas proto-Greek by its nature has to be somewhat of a supposition. rossb 30 June 2005 18:31 (UTC)
 * By the way the article I'm referring to is of course Greek language - I suspect that you may have been referring to Modern Greek. rossb 30 June 2005 18:56 (UTC)

Some suggestions
Might I suggest that you take a look at Civility, Wikiquette, Resolving disputes and Neutral point of view? -- ChrisO 3 July 2005 14:17 (UTC)

Like every measurable magnitude in this word, patience has also its limits. Miskin 3 July 2005 14:20 (UTC)


 * Please don't start revert wars. I note that you've not yet been warned of the three-revert rule, so I'll do so now: technically you've already broken it. If you revert Macedonians once more you will be blocked. -- ChrisO 3 July 2005 14:28 (UTC)

I assume that you're not too familiar with the subject, as you have left this article in this biased state for months. That's the best scenario I can think of, assuming that you're not biased yourself of course. Anyway I don't have the time nor patience to explain to you why this article is biased and has no connection to its name. Although I don't take kindly to threats (especially the type which understimates my intelligence) I don't intend to keep blaking it out because the edit war will get nowhere. However as a temporary solution I'm just going to edit all lies off. With your permission of course, sir. Miskin 3 July 2005 14:40 (UTC)

Ancient Greek
Of course Ancient Greek has a surviving descendant. So does Latin. That's irrelevant to the question of whether it's extinct or not. If you want to propose that "List of extinct languages" be restricted only to languages without surviving descendants, please discuss this idea on Talk first. - Mustafaa 4 July 2005 18:12 (UTC)

Three-revert rule
Miskin, you are now in violation of the three-revert rule at List of extinct languages and have been reported at WP:AN3. --Angr/undefined 4 July 2005 21:49 (UTC)

You've also violated the 3RR on Demographic history of Macedonia. Edit warring is a bad idea, and edit warring after you've been warned about it is a really bad idea. I've blocked you for 24 hours to give you some time to calm down, and Demographic history of Macedonia has been protected in the meantime. When you get back, I suggest that you try using the discussion pages to work out your differences with other editors rather than just hitting the revert button every time. -- ChrisO 4 July 2005 22:26 (UTC)
 * I'll look at it, Miskin. I did not follow this whole 3RR thing, and have to piece together the evidence first. regards, dab (&#5839;) 6 July 2005 13:59 (UTC)

Response
It is extremely hard for me to see any logical reason as to why the article should be curtailed to begin with the Slavic settlement in the 6th century. No one has disputed the fact that Southern Macedonia was inhabited by Greeks at the time of the settlement of the Slavs but that's already in the article. Don't attempt to blame the Bulgarians for "appropriating" the history of Macedon, that's between you and the Macedonians. Besides, the view of the Macedonian Slavs is a fringe opinion in the scientific world, which meets no recognition worldwide. Don't try to intimidate me, either, this will not produce any result. I have no one on my side, if you are talking about ChrisO as my "ally", no he is not. He enjoys quite a good reputation here for being a neutral and unbiased editor - unlike you. You combine a very offensive online behaviour + an inability to see things from any other viewpoint different from the Greek one. You are pissing off far too many people at the same time and I am looking forward to the point when several administrators will get tired of you and your escapades and will take a definitive decision on some things... Then I am gonna open a bottle of champagne. Have a good day. VMORO July 7, 2005 18:05 (UTC)

Demographic history of Macedonia
Sorry about quoting VMORO, but you keep side-stepping the issue. What are the specific problems in the Demographic history of Macedonia as it is now? It's no use disputing the demarcation of Macedonia within the context of Wiki. That article is giving a Demographic history of that region from ancient times to the present. At first I thought the article was superfluous, but I realized it's a valid topic (I can't think of a very good argument against it). Excuse me for giving advice, but I think you should just point out the specific problems that you see in the article. Decius 8 July 2005 11:06 (UTC)

Galatian et al.
There's no point in using Decius's talk page to hash this out, so I'm moving it here.


 * That's because Galatian is a Kelto-Greek language, as it was formed by a diglossy between Gaulish and Greek. You didn't even know of its existence until some hours ago, so don't try to school me on something I taught you. Galatia was also called Gallo-Graecia Their being called in by the king of Bithynia for aid, when they had gained the victory, they divided the kingdom with him, and called that region Gallograecia."--Justin, xxv. 2., just read the article. Miskin 8 July 2005 10:06 (UTC)

How on earth can you pretend to know anything at all about a language whose entire attestation consists of 120 words and no complete sentences? And incidentally, I first heard of Galatian at least fifteen years ago, so don't flatter yourself into thinking you taught me anything. And although they may ethnically have been a mixture of Gauls and Greeks, that doesn't mean their language was a mixed language. It doesn't mean it wasn't one either, of course; the fact is no one knows enough about the Galatian language to know one way or the other.


 * Oh and as for my violations of "No Personal Attacks", you did report me earlier in the most cowardly and cunning way for something that I didn't do (vandalism on stub articles doesn't exist), therefore it's only fair to violate a rule against you. Of course you don't think you reported me for no reason, and I don't think that I have ever personally attacked you, so there's no reason talking about it.Miskin 8 July 2005 10:06 (UTC)

--Angr/undefined 8 July 2005 13:45 (UTC)
 * 1) Reporting vandalism isn't a personal attack.
 * 2) Where did you get the idea that "vandalism on stub articles doesn't exist"? Vandalism is vandalism, regardless of whether the article affected is labeled a stub or not.
 * 3) I didn't report you for vandalism, I reported you for violating the three-revert rule, which is not considered vandalism. (Reporting violations of the 3RR is not a personal attack either.)
 * 4) I did refer to one of your reverts as vandalism, for which I have publicly apologized.
 * 5) If you don't think it's making personal attacks to say things like "I tried to make it clear to you that I despise you" and "After looking at your user page, I realised that you probably already have a socially disturbed life", in addition to the numerous times you have called me ignorant, cowardly, and a troll, then I seriously wonder what does qualify as a personal attack for you.

I hope one day you learn the difference between terms such as "Vandalism" and "content dispute". Until then just refrain from using them. Miskin 16:02, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Οδυσσέας
Ρε συ, τι έγινε τελικά με το άρθρο?, αν δείς την talk page για τους σκοπιανούς, θα σαλτάρεις!!!Τώρα μας λένε οτι πρέπει να ακυρωθεί η ψηφορία και να αλλάξει όνομα το αρθρο!!!Odysseas

Δεν ξέρω καθόλου, εχω σταματίσει ν'ασχολούμαι με αυτό το αρθρο. Ας κάνουν ό,τι θέλουν, έτσι κι αλλιώς δε νομίζω να καταφέρουν να αλλάξουν το όνομα. Miskin 13:55, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Decius has a satori
Decius: "facts that are unproven cannot be called facts, even though I consider that almost a fact. Calling something unproven a 'fact' is what Miskinites do." Except Decius was correcting his own 16:34, 3 Apr 2005 "statement of fact", which read: "the fact (and it is a fact) that the ancient Macedonians spoke a distinct language". Therefore Decius is, by his own criterion, a "Miskinite". This must be very flattering (I guess) for someone, but I'm not sure for whom Chronographos 00:45, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, at the time, I was considering the XMK words and the various references I had seen over the years, and I was being aggresive based on my convictions. Now, I know about those Doricish inscriptions found in Macedon, so I'm more objective on the topic. My present view is that "more discoveries need to be made" to call Macedonian a Greek dialect with any certainty. You, Chronographos, however, seem to be convinced it was a Greek dialect, based mostly on those Doricish inscriptions. Decius 01:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * So "you used to be a Miskinite, but now you are not so sure"? Chronographos 01:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

It would be better not to be "sure" about this topic, because the evidence is too incomplete, and the evidence even seems to be contradictory (the Doric inscriptions don't match what we expect from the XMK glosses). Decius 01:18, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Now what replaced your erstwhile "Miskinism" with your new-found skepticism?  My Pella katadesmos article?  Chronographos 01:22, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Νοικοκύρεψα λίγο ...
... το άρθρο σου για τον μεγάλο Χορν Chronographos 12:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Ευχαριστώ! Έψαξα πολύ και για καλύτερη φωτογραφία αλλά δεν εβρήκα τίποτε αξιόλογο. . . Miskin 12:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Galatian again
Please provide a published source backing up the claim that Galatian is a mixed language. --Angr/undefined 18:29, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Apologia
I'm sincerely sorry for my "vandalism" of the Greek language article and I apologize. My intention was never to vandalize it...only to make it clearer. I am fluent in Ancient Greek so I didn't just edit everything for the heck of it. I really didn't know what I was doing though since I was not aware of the protocol. I never knew people would react so disfavorably. Also, on the languages style template page...it lists "History" as one of the bottom sections in a language article...above "Examples" I believe. When I changed the Greek language article to conform to this standard, the page was edited back...why is this so?

Sincerely sorry, Cubicalbubble88 20:06, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Πᾶν μέτρον ἄριστον, ὦ Kyle.--Theathenae 19:24, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Γεια σου φίλε
Αν σε ενδιαφέρει, δες αυτό το άρθρο:. Έχει μπει ένας και λέει ότι οι Αρβανίτες είναι Αλβανοί. Ίσως φάω αποκλεισμό αν συνεχίσω να revert, οπότε καλό θα είναι να συνεργαζόμαστε σ' αυτές τις περιπτώσεις. Eπίσης διεξάγεται συζήτηση στο Talk:Albanians για το ίδιο θέμα αν θες να καταθέσεις τη γνώμη σου.--Theathenae 19:44, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Auto pou kanei einai klasiki periptosi bandalismou, opote isos prepei na poume se kapoion admin na labei drasi. Proteino ton Elveto pou asxoleitai me tin archaia makedoniki kai entos eisagogikon mas "gnorizei". Miskin 23:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Δύσκολο. Τον αγκαζάρισε ένας Έλλην της Διασποράς που νομίζει ότι τα ξέρει όλα και ότι εμείς που φάγαμε τα νιάτα μας στα θρανία και τα βιβλία μασάμε ταραμά.  Αντί να γράφει γράμματα στο Γερουσιαστή του και να οργανώνει την Ομογένεια μπας και βοηθήσει την Ελλάδα  ...  Εδώ φέραμε τα πάνω-κάτω στη Μακεδονική γλώσσα και στο Σλαβομακεδονικό, και αυτός έχει κολλήσει στην ... Ευκτική Αορίστου!  Άλλωστε δεν μου αρέσει να ζητάω χάρες.  Chronographos 00:57, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Totes to analambano ego. Gia poion milas omos? Miskin
 * As'to, katalava. Ouden scholeion ektos... Ma ti malakas. Miskin
 * Pantos echo synantisei kai cheirotera. Miskin
 * Συν Αθηνά και χείρα κίνει ... Chronographos 23:14, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Συν Ποσειδώνι και τρίαιναν κίνει :-)) Chronographos 00:47, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Questions re. Greek language
Hi, I see you're active on some Greek language related pages. I was working on some Greek language related pages on Dutch wikipedia, and having more questions than answers here I go: Thanks if you can give me some help to send me in the right direction! --Francis Schonken 16:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Was Katharevousa in the 19th century (or beyond) important for uniformising the way Greek was written, I mean the common way to write Greek alphabet and/or which sounds were represented by which letters and/or accents & diacriticals?
 * Is it true that the "old" way of diacriticals (with spiritus asper/lenis and accents in various shape and direction) was only fixed in 19th century, to be abandoned in 1976 with the most recent spelling reform?
 * Is there difference between "new Greek" and "Modern Greek" (Dutch wikipedia made that difference before I came involved), "kini neo-elliniki glossa" = "common neo-Greek language" (the "official" Greek from after the last reform) being identified with "Modern Greek"?
 * Or is all this just invention of one of my predecessors?

DBachmann page
Hi, I can't help but notice that when you sent a note to DBachmann the link you gave, Talk:Arvanitic language, does not seem to exist on Wikipedia nor does Arvanitic language. You might want to check your link.Existentializer 16:32, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I wrote Arvanite language and then corrected it to Arvanitic language. Thanks anyway. Miskin 16:43, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

No problem, it must have not been moved when I clicked the link. Have a nice day!Existentializer 16:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Talk:Greek language
What sort of answer do you expect when you ask if I'm "retarded" and call my comments "idiocies"? And what's the problem with discussing the differences between New Testament Koine and Modern? I note that Chronographos hasn't answered a single one of my points; instead he mocks my spelling errors (so I might as well write in English). As for "les kai eipe kaneis allos oti prokeitai gia to idio kai to auto. Tis kseroume tis diafores"... Chronographos said quite explicitly "Dimotiki...versions [of the πατερ ημων] are practically the same as the Koine ones (give or take a participle here or a definite article there)". --Macrakis 17:24, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

By the way, I don't know why you put a message for Project1251a on my Talk page. I am copying it to his. --Macrakis 17:30, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I assume that Chronographos was referring to the degree of intelligibility, and not to the actual linguistic structure between the two. I'll give you another example:

"Από μικρόθεν μ'έλεγεν ο γέρων ο πατήρ μου: Παιδί μου μάθε γράμματα, και ωσάν εσέναν έχει. Βλέπεις τον δείνα τέκνον μου, πεζός περιεπάτει, και τώρα διπλοεντέληνος και παχυμουλαράτος. Αυτός όταν εμάνθανε υπόδησιν ούκ ειχεν, και τώρα, βλέπεις τον, φορεί τα μακρυμύτικά του. Αυτός όταν εμάνθανε, ποτέ του ουκ εκτενίσθη, και τώρα καλοκτένιστος και καμαροτριχάρης."
 * Χεχε, Πτωχοπρόδρομος, ε? Βάλτον να κάνει γλωσσική σύγκριση με την ιδίας εποχής "Αλεξιάδα" να μπλέξει χειρότερα ...  (Μετά βαλ' τον να συγκρίνει Μακρυγιάννη με Παπαδιαμάντη)  :-)) Chronographos 19:15, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Do you understand this text or not? This is a demotic text of the 11th century, if you make a 'Koine Modern Greek' translation its structure will change significantly, but its intelligibility will remain the same. Dhimotiki and Modern Greek are not only about the official state language of Greece since 1976. Miskin 17:50, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Κοίτα ρε...
... που ήρθανε τα άγρια να διώξουνε τα ήμερα, με τραμπουκισμούς και  χαρακτηρισμούς επί προσωπικού! Κατά τα άλλα, ωραία προωθείς τον Ελληνικό πολιτισμό! Βρίζοντας και μειώνοντας τους άλλους, και ιδίως συμπολίτες σου, και μάλιστα, τη στιγμή που κανένας δεν σε έχει βρίσει! Μου φαίνεται τα θέλει ο πισινός σου... Σου είχα βάλει την template &#123;{welcome}}, αλλά μου φαίνεται τα έγραψες στα παλαιότερα των υποδημάτων σου. Ως εδώ η παρατήρηση και η προειδοποίηση ότι δεν πας καλά.

Όσο για την "προάσπιση της πατρίδας μου" και απάντηση στο σχόλιο σου, με βάση την απαξίωση σου στο πρόσωπο μου και την μοδάτη -αριστερή- ιδεολογία μου:

Καλοφάγωτo το 1.3 δις (τουλάχιστο) που θα σας κοστίσουν τα 30 Φ-16 και τα 333 Λέοπαρντ που έχεις να πληρώνεις για τα επόμενα 40 χρόνια και τα οποία διέταξε το ΚΥΣΕΑ (και όχι ο ΥΠΕΘΑ) να αγοραστούν. Πες μου μετά, ποιος κάνει κουμάντο με τα λεφτά μου, και μήλα μου για δημοκρατία! Κάντε και μία απόβαση με αυτά, στη Αντάρτικη, γιατί μας οχτρεύονται οι πιγκουΐνοι και εκεί και θέλουν να μας πάρουν τα ιερά μας χώματα! Και με ότι σου μείνει, δραματοποίησε την απόβαση στην Νορμανδία και τη μάχη στις Θερμοπύλες, να εξτασιάζεται ο Ντουβάς! Άνοιξε τη Μανίτσα και κάψτε και 10 φαντάρους ακόμα, να πάει στο λύκο, μόνο 8,71 ευρώ το μήνα πάνε! Και μην ξεχάσεις να μάθεις στους φαντάρους που σας περισσεύουνε βήμα, να μην τους φάει ο οχτρός! Και από το πουλί που θα γυαλίζει, να παίρνεις και θάρρος!

Κατά τα άλλα, η παράγκα που έχετε ανοίξει, δουλεύει μια χαρά. Δεν με καλέσατε στα εγκαίνια, γιατί ξέρατε ότι θα σας χάλαγα το μαγαζί! Αλλά, εύγε! Πάει μια χαρά και μόνο του! Συνεχίστε να γράφετε άρθρα για πεθαμένους και ξεχάστε τους ζωντανούς, δεν τρέχει τίποτα! Θα μας σώσει ο Αλέξανδρος, όταν μας πουν οι Βρυξέλες "Τη βαζελίνη τοποθετήσατε, ΑΠ! (γιατί αλλιώς βγαίνετε από την Ευρώπη!)". Αλλά, εμείς είμαστε ποιο έξυπνοι από τους κουτόφραγκους, έτσι; Χαλαράαααααααα...

Όταν θα θες να βγεις σύνταξη το 2020 με 2040, θα πρέπει να μου γράψεις έκθεση ιδεών: "Τι είναι η πατρίς;", ΟΚ; Αλλιώς θα πρέπει να μου βγεις στον ΑΝΤ1 και να μου παραπονιέσαι πόσο έχουνε ακριβύνει τα ραπανάκια!

Φίλα μου τον καταραμένο όφη σταυρωτά! Όταν τον σφάξετε να περάσετε να σας δώσω το παράσημο της ανοιχτής παλάμης! Βρήκε ο κάθε νέοπας το Ιντερνετ και βγήκε να πεί Ζήτω η πατρίς! Πέ' και πέ', ρε! Άντε για και φιλάκια! Project2501a 20:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Pairneis narcotika? Miskin 21:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Απ' ότι έχω δεί είναι ένας τύπος που κλαίγεται ότι στην Ελλάδα υπάρχει "αρνητική ενέργεια" και ότι θέλει να φύγει στο εξωτερικό. "Αρνητική ενέργεια" υπάρχει όντως, αλλά την κουβαλάει ο καθένας μέσα του.  Εγώ όταν θέλησα να πάω στην Αμερική για να μάθω κάτι που εδώ δεν μπορούσα, πήγα, έκατσα 5 χρονάκια και όταν το έμαθα γύρισα.  Όση αρνητική ή θετική ενέργεια διεπίστωσα, εκεί ή εδώ, την κουβαλούσα μέσα μου κατά κύριο λόγο.  Είναι συνηθισμένη "σταση ζωής" πολλών ανθρώπων αυτή.  Για όλα φταίει κάποιος άλλος, ή γενικώς "οι άλλοι" και η αρνητική τους ενέργεια.  Δεν ξέρω πόση "αρνητική ενέργεια" έχει επηρεάσει τη ζωή μου, αλλα ξέρω ότι έχω κάνει τις απαραίτητες ενέργειες για να ορίζω τη ζωή μου εγώ, και όχι η όποια "ενέργεια" των άλλων.  Chronographos 00:16, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Κοίταξε φίλε μου Project2501a, το γεγονός οτι έμαθες να βλέπεις τον κόσμο μόνο από το αριστερό μάτι δεν σε κάνει αυτόματα μοναδικό κήνσωρα της αλήθειας. Πρέπει να συνειδητοποιήσεις οτι μπορεί να υπάρχουν άλλοι που να έχουν μάθει να τον βλέπουν μόνο με το δεξί (ή να προσπαθούν και με τα δύο) και να θεωρούν οτι αυτοί είναι οι ορθοί. Αν εσύ έχεις για κόλλημα τη στράτευση, άλλοι έχουν την ιστορία. Αν τους κατηγορείς οτι είναι εθνικιστές, εύκολα μπορούν να σε κατηγορήσουν οτι είσαι διεθνιστούλης. Υποτίθεται, ( τονίζω το υποτίθεται) οτι εδώ γράφουμε για τη τρέλα μας, για να μεταδώσουμε κάτι, κτλ. Όλους μας ενδιαφέρει νομίζω το καλύτερο για τη χώρα μας, ο καθένας (και εσύ φυσικά) με το τρόπο του. Και εγώ συμφωνώ οτι σε έναν ιδανικό κόσμο δεν πρέπει να υπάρχουν πόλεμοι και εγώ συμφωνώ οτι τα χρήματα που δίνουμε για όπλα είναι πολλά αλλά ο κόσμος μας δεν είναι ο ιδανικός και ρε φίλε, στο κάτω-κάτω, ΠΟΛΥ ΓΚΡΙΝΙΑΖΕΙΣ. Μόνο η γκρίνια δεν οδηγεί πουθενά. Τώρα, αν έχεις μάθει να σκύβεις και να τα δέχεσαι όλα (διαστρεύλωση και παραχάραξη της ιστορίας, ισοπέδωση των ιδιαιτεροτήτων κάθε λαού) γιατί έτσι προστάζουν οι πολιτικώς ορθές απόψεις της (πάλι υποτίθεται) 'προοδευτικής' σοσιαλδημοκρατίας (τύπου Μπλέρ, Φίσερ και των παρατρεχάμενων τους εδώ Συνασπισμού και Μπίστηδων), κακό του κεφαλιού σου, όταν θα καταλάβεις (γιατί κάποτε θα το καταλάβεις) οτι είσαι πιόνι τους θα'ναι αργά.

Και όχι, μην θεωρήσεις οτι είμαι πασόκος ή απολίτικος ή (όπως λέμε εδώ πάνω, στη Μακεδονία-ή μήπως πρέπει να πώ Aegean Macedonia, μή και σε προσβάλλω?- ντεμέκ) κεντρώος, δεξιός κάργα είμαι.Odysseas 12:09, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Navigational template (for Greek language related articles)
Hey, how am I doing thus far with this Template:History of the Greek language?


 * History of the Greek language

Just asking... don't restrain yourselves from improving that template, I think restructuring and reorganising the articles will be the easiest part afterwards! --Francis Schonken 21:07, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Δύο παρατηρήσεις: "Consisting of", όχι "in"
 * H Μεσαιωνική περίοδος θέλει σπάσιμο σε "Λόγια" και "Λαϊκή" γλώσσα ( η δεύτερη περιλαμβάνει Ακριτικά, Κρητικά έπη, Πτωχοπροδρομικά κλπ)
 * Δεν είμαι σίγουρος για το Koine Modern Greek ως απόδοση της "Νεοελληνικής Κοινής". Μήπως ρηξικέλευθα να τη λέγαμε Νeohellenic Koine ή ακόμα πιο επαναστατικά "Νέα Κοινή" (Νew Koine) ???  :-))) Chronographos 00:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I failed to notice you are a non-Greek. Can you read what I wrote or should I translate it into English?  Chronographos 00:28, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm... isos. Den exo petyxei os tora ton oro se ksenoglosso biblio. Ekana eleutheri metafrasi akolouthontas to "Koine Greek". To 'Koine' pantos einai genikos glossikos oros opote de prepei na einai teleios lathos. Miskin
 * I'll continue in English to make it easier for Francis: Babiniotis' preferred term in Greek, with which I agree, is Neoelliniki Koine. Translating it verbatim into Koine Modern Greek looks awkward to me.  Sounds like a car (!): this is Koine, and this is Koine Gran Turismo Sport.  :-)))    A more literal translation, "Common New Greek" also looks awkward to me.  I like "New Koine" (Νέα Κοινή) better, I think it looks more elegant.  What do you guys think?  Chronographos 00:44, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

If you think that Koini Elliniki gives Koine Greek, then Koini Neo-Elliniki should give... what exactly? Miskin
 * Koine Gran Turismo Sport! :-)) Chronographos 00:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

There seems to be a body of literature in English that uses the term Standard Modern Greek.--Theathenae 08:23, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * "Standard"? You mean, no airbags, no a/c, no ABS? :-PPP Chronographos 09:17, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Ναι ρε, στάνταρ.--Theathenae 09:22, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau
You are right when you say I am not familiar with the situation, but regardless of if he always inserts POV material and constantly reverts or not, there is no excuse for making personal attacks. If you feel that you need to stop a revert war or to force someoen to talk then request protection at WP:RFPP. If anyone breakes the 3RR note it at WP:AN/3. If anyone repeatedly refuses to listen to consensus or to engange with other editors initiate an RFC at WP:RFC. Thryduulf 08:09, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Miskin, γεια χαρά, να σε καλωσορίσω έστω και αργά στη Wikipedia. Απλά ήθελα να σου επισημάνω πως σύμφωνα με το παλιό σχολικό μου εγχειρίδιο, ο Κωνσταντίνος ο Μέγας άνηκε στη δυναστεία των «Ιλλυριών». Πάντοτε υπέθετα πως αυτό αναφέρεται στην καταγωγή του. Αν εσύ ξέρεις παραπάνω για το ζήτημα, έχει καλώς. Etz Haim 13:57, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Euxaristo. Den exei amesi sxesi to onoma tis dynasteias me tin katagogi ton autokratoron. Gia paradeigma o Basil I pou onomastike "Makedonas" kai idrise ti dunasteia ton Makedonon, itan stin pragmatikotita Armenian people, kai oi diadoxoi pou onomastikan episis "Makedones" den eixan oute ekeinoi katagogi apo ti Makedonia. Oso gia ton Mega Konstantino, einai pragmatika komiko-tragiko na anaferthei os autokratoras Illyrikis katagogis stin selida tis Albanikis istorias, gia ton aplo logo oti den yparxei oute ena katagegrameno Illyriko ixnos stin katagogi tou (i opoia epivevaionetai sta omonuma arthra). Miskin 14:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Επίσης, πρόσεξα πως αφαίρεσες την θεωρία του Morosi για την προέλευση του Griko, χωρίς να εξηγείς το γιατί. Etz Haim 14:07, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Auti i theoria ap'oso ksero exei katariptei toulaxiston apo ti dekaetia tou '60. Auto pou mporei akoma na upothei, einai oti to Ellinofono Byzantino stoixeio enisxuse tin omilia tis Italo-Dorikis dialektou. Se kamia periptosi omos den stekei i upothesi oti auti i dialektos proerxetai katheauto apo tous Byzantinous metanastes kai de sundeetai me tin arxaia Doriki tis perioxis (to opoio kai diorthosa). Miskin 14:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Γιατί μου τη πεφτεις ετσι για αυτο που εγραψα στο talk:Macedonia? Ουσιαστικά αυτο που κανει ειναι να αποδεικνυει οτι στην Ελλαδα δεν υπάρχει σλαβική γενετική επιδραση είτε απο σκοπιανους ειτε απο Βούλγαρους ή αλλους σλαβους

A! Δες και αυτο []

Den stin pefto bre ston Skopiano apeuthinomoun. Isos egrapsa se lathos simeio. Miskin 10:28, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Ρε συ είδες τι έκανες στο Μακεδονία; Επανέφερες (κατά λάθος, προφανώς) αυτά που υποτίθεται ότι είχες διορθώσει.

Names of the Greeks
Άν ενδιαφέρεσαι, έλα στο Featured article candidates και βοήθησε το Names of the Greeks να γίνει Featured Article. Πέσ'το και σε όσους νομίζεις ότι θα ενδιαφέονταν. Colossus 19:56, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

ok
but stop calling Sterbinski's edits "vandalism" when they are just about a content dispute. And make compromise suggestions. If he turns them down, that's his problem, but you want to look like you are prepared to listen to concerns, and improve the wording. dab (&#5839;) 13:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It is unknown whether makednos is a "Greek word". Suggestions include maki-kedon, with kedon Macedonian for Greek khthon. But this is uncertain. The origin of the name is unknown. dab (&#5839;) 14:14, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

vandalism report
Vandalism reports should be made at vandalism in progress (WP:VIP) or Administrator intervention against vandalism (WP:AIV). If you have a problem with another users behaviour, you should follow the dispute resolution process - see Resolving disputes. Thryduulf 14:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

New & Modern Greek in Dutch
Just to say thanks for your clarifications!

Yes, Dutch wikipedia made the distinction: "new" for "neo-ellēnikē" in general and "modern" for the written Greek resulting from the 1981 (or was it 1979?) reform.

I made a "template" similar to Template:History of the Greek language for Dutch wikipedia (nl:Sjabloon:Grieks, recently simplified by someone else), which I should adapt a bit, according to what you told me. But then first I'll have to find out for sure how language experts in Dutch-speaking countries approach this.

So anyway, thanks, you helped me. --Francis Schonken 14:21, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

grc templates
I saw that you removed the Babel page links to the grc ("Ancient Greek") templates (though the templates themselves still appear to exist). I won't argue with you over whether the grc templates were simply Attic, or whether that ought to be categorized under "Greek" more generally, but I think there is a need for templates that can be used by people like me who can't speak or read Greek as the language is used today, but who can still pick our way through classical texts. Do you have any ideas for making such templates? -EDM 18:51, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll certainly defer to you on the content of the templates and I'm not going to hasten to put them back. But there is a difference between those of us who can struggle through Homer or Sophocles with a Liddell & Scott next to us on the desk, and those who can go to Athens today and read a newspaper or have a casual conversation with a stranger in a cafe.  Templates to indicate the former level of proficiency would be of value. -EDM 19:22, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Μπράβο αστροπελέκι μου εσύ
Μόλις ταύτισες (ή τα 'φτυσες) τον Μακεδονικό Πολιτισμό με τον πολιτισμό των Σκοπίων. Αστέρι μου, φεγγάρι μου, της άνοιξης κλωνάρι μου ... Chronographos 15:55, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Μας δουλεύεις τώρα κι εσύ; Το άρθρο επαναλαμβάνει ουσιαστικά αυτά που μαθαίνουν τα Σκοπιανόπαιδα στα σχολεία τους κι εσενα σε πείραξε ο τίτλος και μία αναφορά που έκανε στους Έλληνες στην πρώτη παράγραφο; Τελος πάντων το συμμάξεψα λίγο. Εαν δεν καταφέρω να το διατηρήσω τότες θα το επαναφέρω στον αρχικό τίτλο. Miskin 16:27, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Πριν ένα μήνα είχα γράψει: "τους δίνεις επιχειρήματα χωρίς καν να το καταλαβαίνεις". Τώρα κάνεις τις ίδιες παπαριές, και το λιγοστό νιονιό που διαθέτεις δεν σου επιτρέπει να το καταλάβεις (οποία έκπληξις!).   Ας το ταΐσουμε λοιπόν το μωράκι σιγάαααααααααα-σιγα', μην πνιγεί και τι θα γίνουμε μετά.
 * Είμαι ένας άσχετος Ιάπων. Ή Λάπων.  Ή Μαλαισιανός.  Ή Κογκολέζος.  Είδα το έργο του Στόουν και πολύ μου άρεσε.  Θέλω λοιπόν να διαβάσω για το Μακεδονικό Πολιτισμό.  Ανοίγω τη Wikipedia και γράφω "Culture of Macedonia" στο κουτάκι.  Πατάω το "Go".  Και που με πάει?  Στον απόπατο.  Και ποιός έκανε τη σελίδα αυτή να οδηγεί στον απόπατο με το redirect του???  Η λακαμία που σε δέρνει.  Chronographos 16:51, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Για δισαμπίγκ και τέτοια τι λες;MATIA 17:03, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Tίποτα. Ο Μίσκιν τα 'κανε σαν τα μούτρα του, ο Μίσκιν να βγάλει άκρη.  Δεν μπορώ να νταντεύω το κάθε αυτιστικό Chronographos 17:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Για να είμαστε δίκαιοι, το έκτρωμα Culture of Macedonia προϋπήρχε της επέμβασης του User:Miskin. Γι' αυτό έριξα ένα redirect ώστε η αναζήτηση Culture of Macedonia να παραπέμπει κατευθείαν στο Macedonia. Έτσι ο Λάπων θα δει ότι δεν είναι μόνο αυτός προστατευόμενο είδος...--Theathenae 17:09, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Βεβαίως και προϋπήρχε. Εκείνος ήρθε και του έδωσε τη χαριστική βολή.  Και τώρα πρέπει να τρέχουμε εμείς να τα συμμαζέψουμε.  Θεαθήναι, μια και του άλλαξες Πάμπερς, βαλ' του και λίγη Φισσάν μη συγκαεί το σκασμένο Ηρώδης


 * Chronographe xalarose. Pare vathies anapnoes. Ase tin kardia sou na iremisei kai an xreiastei pare kai to xapi sou. Etsi mpravo. Kai tora akouse me prosoxi: Ta arthra me titlo 'culture of tade' epikentronontai os epi to pliston se yparxonta krati kai oxi se geographikes perioxes opos auta ta zoa isxirizontai gia ti Makedonia. Epipleon to 'tade' kommati tou arthrou simplironetai automata sinithos me "republic of" (tade), opos px 'republic of Greece' -> culture of greece. Auto simainei oti gia ton kathe tyxaio Ioapona to 'culture of Macedonia' sundeetai eksorismou me 'culture of RoM', kai kanenas den prokeitai na skeftei "hmmm edo den leei pos prokeitai gia to kratos Makedonia alla gia tin perioxi" opos fantasionesai. Amesos-amesos 2 logoi gia na allaksei o titlos. Fusika i allagi tou titlou de eftane gia na ksevgalthoun ola ta aplyta ton Skopianon propagandiston, gi auto ekana kai kapoia proxeira edits (stin kirioleksia sto podi) ta opoia antikathistousan 'Makedones' me 'slavomakedones' i 'Boulgarous' kai ta sxetika. O theathenae ekane katalathos redirect sto "Culture of macedonia", pou einai diaforetiko apo to "Culture of Macedonia", sto opoio epanaferthike to arthro. Oi ypokrites pou to epaneferan, parolo pou isxiristikan pos to arthro milaei gia tin cultura tis perioxis kai oxi tou kratous, ekanan redirect apo to 'culture of RoM' sto 'culture of Macedonia'. Mia deuteri lisi tha itan na valoume anafores Ellinomakedonon sto arthro me ton isxirismo "afou exei thema tin perioxi monaxa". Mesa s'ola ta aisxi, to arthro milaei gia mesaioniki kai Othomaniki periodo ton Slavon tis "Makedonias", kati pou einai atopo eksorismou epeidi os gnoston prin ton 20o aiona den ypirxan Slavoi pou na autoapokalountai Makedones. Auto pou thelo na po einai pos kai "culture of RoM" na to valoume pali de tha stekei, kai pali poly tha tous peftei. Isos i kalyteri lusi tha itan na kataferoume na to steiloume olo mazi ston klado anakyklosis. Miskin 12:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Καλά, τραγούδα και βγάλε άκρη μόνος σου. Εμένα άσε με απέξω.  Chronographos 12:55, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Cut-and-paste moves
Hi Miskin. You recently moved "Culture of Macedonia" to "Culture of Republic of Macedonia". To go about this, you simply cut the content out of the old article title and pasted it into the new title. This is not the way to go about moving a page. Just click the "move" tab at the top of the article you want to move, and specify the new title. That way, it retains the edit history of the article at the new page. - Mark 15:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Urgent... please contact User:Plugwash about your browser
Hello,

Your recent edits have introduced some sort of non-standard Unicode characters. For instance, your recent edit to Saint Cyril (here) broke many interwiki links.

I will ask User:Plugwash to get in touch with you to find out what browser you are using, so that he can modify the Mediawiki software to work with it. Can you please delay editing in the meantime, or perhaps use a different browser? Hopefully, this can be resolved very soon. -- Curps 16:16, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I had to revert Demographic history of Macedonia to fix the unicode damage mentioned above. If possible, can you try reapplying your changes with a common browser like Internet Explorer or Firefox? Thanks in advance if you can assist in this. I would do this myself if time permitted, but I need to check all the other pages to see if they also have unicode damage. I'm not taking any position in any content disputes, just trying to fix this accidental damage. -- Curps 17:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok i'm here as requested and now watching this talk page ;). Please inform us what browser you are using and any internationalisation settings in the browser and/or os. Plugwash 21:22, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

The problem occurs on a specific browser of a specific public place. I'll make sure it doesn't happen again. Miskin 16:19, 14 September 2005 (UTC) Hello again,

Unfortunately, your browser is once again garbling Unicode characters in your most recent edits:. Once again, please get in touch with User:Plugwash so he can identify how to modify the Mediawiki software so it can handle your browser. This is fairly urgent... every edit you make introduces Unicode garbling that has to be repaired by hand. Even if you stop using this browser and use another one, it would still be useful to identify the browser and handle it properly, so please provide User:Plugwash with the necessary information.

Unfortunately, I'll have to go over your contributions since last time to try to fix any Unicode garbling. If it's simple to fix I'll do it, but otherwise I may need to revert and ask you to reapply your changes. If so, I'll let you know which articles are affected. -- Curps 22:02, 13 September 2005 (UTC)


 * What browser are you using? Do you need any help? MATIA 07:29, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Hello again,

I hate to keep pestering you, but today you edited Pete Sampras again and again introduced Unicode garbling. I reverted your changes (for this reason alone, not because of content change or any editing dispute).

As far as I can tell, you haven't contacted User:Plugwash about this. Please do so very soon. I don't know why you are delaying doing so. Once he knows which browser you are using, it should be very simple to add it to a list of browsers that need special handling by Mediawiki software, and then there should be no problem for you to use this browser in the future. -- Curps 16:00, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

The problem occurs on a specific browser of a specific public place. I'll make sure it doesn't happen again. Miskin 16:21, 14 September 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, but there are still a couple of things:


 * 1) It would be better to fix Mediawiki so that every browser can be used, instead of "forbidding" certain browsers
 * 2) Some other user might use the same browser and cause the same problem.  In fact, this guy seems to have done so:


 * So, could you please do one more thing. The next time you use that "browser in a public place" that you used before:
 * Please visit http://aspnet.4guysfromrolla.com/demos/UserAgent.aspx
 * Look at the line displayed under "Your user-agent string is:"
 * Cut and paste that line (ctrl-C, ctrl-V under Windows) and post it here or to my talk page.


 * If you could provide the above information (shouldn't take more than a few seconds), it would be extremely helpful for Wikipedia. And after a short while (enough time to allow a fix to be applied), you'd probably even be able to start using that browser again. Thanks. -- Curps 18:27, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Your user-agent string is: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1) In fact it's an IE. Miskin 10:50, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmmmmm.... is that user-agent string for the "public place browser" (the one that caused the Unicode garbling), or the one you're using now?  If that was the public-place browser, perhaps it's spoofing what it really is, which would be quite unfortunate. I'll let Plugwash know and hopefully he might have some answers. -- Curps 12:11, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

No that was the naughty one, I've changed to a decent one just now. It's probably spoofing it because despite what it said, it was an IE. Miskin 12:16, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Or at least I thought it was decent. Your user-agent string is: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; fr; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050720 Fedora/1.0.6-1.1.fc4 Firefox/1.0.6 Miskin 12:22, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, well that's a mystery. If it's spoofing it's very hard to adjust for it.  I'm not sure how an IE browser can do that... or was it the Gecko browser that was doing it wrong?  I'm a bit confused.


 * In the meantime, can you please redo your edit on Demographic history of Macedonia with the good browser? I hate to bug you about it, but the other browser introduced garbling again, just a few minutes ago. -- Curps 12:25, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Forget about the second one (Gecko), it appears to be fine. The last edit you had to revert was the result of a revert to an already damaged version. It's the first one (IE) that has the problem. Miskin 13:10, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


 * at a guess the SV1 represents some kind of toolbar or spyware that may be causing the problem, lemme look into this. Plugwash 13:47, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


 * no on further research it just seems to be an indicator of XP service pack 2 Plugwash 13:54, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that browser has problem again, be careful when editing sections that have unicode characters (perhaps don't edit such sections with this browser). MATIA 15:14, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Various love messages
I hope you get hit by a bus you fucking dipshit......or better yet...introduce yourself to every Macedonian that you meet and share your views with them......then when you get out of the hospital...if its not too much....could your write me back and tell me of your experiance?You fuckin loser.....got nothing better to do than spread PROPAGANDA?GET A LIFE. 24.57.117.176

No problem. What's your email address? Miskin

STEALING GREEK AND BULGARIAN HISTORY?ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?ITS THE OTHER WAY AROUND YOU FUCKING GIMP...I HOPE WITH ALL MY HEART THAT YOU SUFFER GREAT PAIN BEFORE YOUR DEMISE.....YOU ARE THE LOWEST TYPE OF SCUM ON THIS EARTH....SPREADING YOUR LIES FROM THE COMFORT OF A SAFE ENVIRONMENT....IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE ANY OF THIS....WHY DONT YOU GO INTO A ROOM FULL OF MACEDONIANS AND TELL THEM WHAT YOU THINK....TELL THEM WHAT THEY ARE....IM SURE YOU WOULD:)))ANYWAYS JUST KNOW THAT YOURE DOING MORE HARM TO A PEOPLE THAN YOU COULD POSSIBLY IMAGINE....IGNORANT FUCKERS WONT RECOGNIZE YOUR DECEPTION AND THEYLL TAKE WHAT YOUVE WRITTEN AS BEING TRUTHFUL....I ON THE OTHERHAND KNOW YOURE FULL OF SHIT. 24.57.117.176 (d57-117-176.home.cgocable.net)

Actually I was quite serious. In fact I'm wondering whether you're serious to be doubting my being serious. The social brainwash of ex-commie nations does never cease to amaze me. Thanks for helping me back up my claims by providing solid, real-time evidence (such as yourself). Miskin 15:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Miskin... your stupidity has no borders, no deliniations and no division lines... Immense as outer space... VMORO 23:41, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Wicked. Sounds like X-Files material. Miskin

Mediation
Are you going to agree to mediation as proposed by Zocky for Macedonian Slavs (Talk) or not? GrandfatherJoe 17:57, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

First reply from Bomac
Hello!

What I want to say is that you are wrong when you think that Tsar Samuil was Bulgarian and st. Cyril was Greek. I mean, Cyril is not even a greek name! Bomac 13:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

OK about your facts, but, as you know, the blood never transforms into water, so... Bomac 14:45, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

The Byzantine emperor Bassileios B' who defeated him was nicknamed "Boulgaroktonos" which is Greek for "Bulgar-Slayer".

Obviously, he was some kind of Greece-related person, or the Greeks gave him that name. Then, it's normally he wasn't called Makedoktonos (or Macedon-Slayer). Bomac 15:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

If you say that in that time, there weren't slavic nations, then I don't get it, why in the last reply (at my talk-page) you said this:

They were born to a Slavic mother, that's a fact? Bomac 16:42, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Don't be angry on me, but I think that you are blinded with nationalism, and that stops you from seeing the things as they are (...Oh, I know it's hard for you!). You are so blinded, that you are confused in your own greek nationalistic lies. Regards. Bomac 17:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it's fair to say that Saints Cyril and Methodius were ethnically half-Slavic. But they were Greek in language and culture and the modern Skopjan nationalists' attempts to claim them as their own are laughable, especially in view of the fact that the Slavs of Macedonia were called Bulgarians at that time.--Theathenae 17:37, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Don't try to pull-out the atention, Theathenae. Bomac 17:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Famous Macedonians
Miskin, who exactly do you not approve of in the picture for the heading of the table on Macedonian Slavs? I'll look into it and may replace him with someone else if strictly speaking he isn't a Slavic Macedonian. REX 19:44, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I see your point Miskin. I know that Samuel II was a Bulgarian ruler who fancied himself as an ημιαργείος (half-Greek, G*d knows why). As for Cyril, I don't know if he was Slavic or not. If he was half Slavic and spent a large amount of his life amongst the Slavs then his picture can be used. After all, Maria Callas has a big picture on Greece and she was American! I will remove the picture of Samuel II once I find something suitable to replace him with. REX 10:13, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Let's say it's OK about the pictures. But, why do you erase the number of Macedonians in Greece?!? Bomac 09:19, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

So, let me guess: you are trying to say that there isn't a macedonian community (and ethnicity) in Greece?!? Bomac 09:45, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Bomac, there is a Slavic speaking Macedonian minority in and Ethnologue clearly states the figures. REX 10:13, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Naturally it's a small number. That's because Greece cared to drive-out by force (Greek civil war) the Macedonians. Very ,,democratic'', indeed. Bomac 10:15, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Metaxas and the Macedonians
Don't runaway from the point, Miskin! We are talking about Metaxas and the Macedonians.

By the way, with your, so-called explanation about Metaxas, tells how much you are unsure about Metaxas and Macedonians and confused. P.S. Metaxas is a nazy, from that which you recommended me to read. Regards. Bomac 11:03, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Miskin, do you think that you can explain the following: I must say, I find all this very disturbing and shocking! REX 12:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Greece: Report on the Macedonian minority
 * Greece: Inhuman refusal of entry and denaturalization of ethnic Macedonians in Greece
 * Macedonian diaspora leaders met UN envoy Matthew Nimetz

Note
You think a lil' bit about other peoples' patience. Others (such as I) can report you for vandalism because, actually, you are doing the POV pushing (Macedonians want that picture to be there, and the number of Macedonians in Greece, too). So quit it. Bomac 17:33, 6 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Bomac, given that Misqin can't prove that what we are putting on the article is incorrect, the administrators wouldn't see it as vandalism, but as a content dispute. REX 17:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

hello friend
Ignore any provocations and stay WP:COOL. +MATIA &#9742; 18:09, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Quit
Don't send me any more messages. If you do so, I'll consider that as personal attack and I'll ignore or report you. Bomac 12:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Miskin, you cannot prove that the figures provided by Ethnologue are inaccurate. We'll just have to use them until Greece comes to her senses and recognises its minorities and counts them in her censi. I find it appalling that Greece, having been in the EU for so long, having had so much aid spent on her from other EU countries is refusing to grant its minorities basic human rights such as the freedom to associate or the freedom to self identification. Until then we will just have to use Ethnologue's figures. REX 13:45, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The only reason I add the pictures is because I revert the removal of the Ethnologue figures. I personally think that that picture should be changed. I don't believe that Samuel II was Macedonian. As for Cyril, he is debetable. As for your confident claims about the tiny Macedonian speaking minority as you call it, read the Helsinki Report. It tosses some mud at your governments, that's the least it says. REX 14:10, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Cyril's nationality most certainly is debatable. If the descendants of the ethnic group of his mother are either partly or wholly today's Slavic speaking Macedonians, then it is not inconceivable to use his picture. REX 14:30, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Miskin, will you stop saying such hateful things. Saying that the Slavic Macedonians are not a real nation. Of course they are. Do you know what a nation is? If not, I suggest you read nation. If the Americans, the Australians, the Canadians etc can call themselves nations, then the Slavic speaking Macedonians most certainly can. It is well known now that you hate this ethnic group, but insults of this nature against a nation is a very rude thing to do. You can criticise their governments as much as you like though, most governments are cr*p anyway, but what you say almost touches upon racism. It sounds like Hitler all over again saying: the Germans create culture, the Japanese preserve culture and the Jews destroy culture. REX 15:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Miskin, I don't know if your single brain cell can comprehend this, but ethnic group X, whatever they're called, didn't just drop out of the sky on a rainy day. They are a Slavic nation much like any other. Their case is similar to the Ukrainians and the Byelorussians, who were regarded as a subset of a larger Slavic ethnic group and who later gained their independence and established a state and started to promote ideas of a separate nationhood. Why don't we check out the sad Greek tale of a government who tried to impose Katharevusa on the Greeks because they wanted people to think that that was their language, but that was a case of pathetic lies, wasn't it? REX 15:40, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Why do you make yourself look so ridiculous by trying to discuss matters that you're blatantly not familiar with? Nevermind, no need to answer that. It was a rhetorical question. Miskin 16:10, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Was Skenderbeg partly Serb? Macedonians are not a nations. Macedonian Slavs are. The Austrian rulers during the turbolent XIX century have claimed that "Italy is not a nation, but a mere geographical region" Today, the Italians are a people. But Cyril did have a Slavic mother. A Slavic, and there's the end (no Macedonian or something like it...) HolyRomanEmperor 12:06, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Macedonian Slavs
''Why did you protect the article on its POV version? This is against wikipedia rules. Do you know who the people depicted supposedly as "Macedonian Slavs" are? It's a disgrace to wikipedia to promote such POVs, even when it's about a content dispute. That would be like protecting the article of Israel under the name Palestine until Arab-Jewish conflicts are solved in Talk. Articles should be protected in their original version, until the disputing party makes a valid point in discussion, not the other way around. Miskin 12:04, 10 October 2005 (UTC)''
 * According to the protection policy, administrators are not supposed to protect one version of a page instead of another, unless one is clear vandalism. I have unprotected the article for other reasons, but please tread carefully and do not resort to solely reverting if you disagree with the other editors.  There are methods to resolve disputes. -- BMIComp (talk, HOWS MY DRIVING) 03:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

While that paragraph may need expansion to look better (about ancient macedonians mac.slavs etc) I don't think it should be removed. perhaps you could restore it. take care. +MATIA &#9742; 10:09, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I understand about "their way" but I believe mediation will solve this and undo the move. I still believe you should restore that paragraph - if you read it better you'll see it has NPOV potential. Restore and then expand. +MATIA &#9742; 10:19, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Forming alliances is against Wikipedia policies but we can certainly co-operate (and we do) in matters of interest... :-)) VMORO 15:34, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll probably leave for a wiki-vacation. Be WP:CIV and WP:COOL even if they continue to provoke you. Take care. +MATIA &#9742; 10:21, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * And I believe that WP:NPOV is the way to go, but with patience. +MATIA &#9742; 10:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Σκόπια - Μοναστήρι

 * Hi Miskin, I know you and I have never seen eye to eye, but I was hoping that we could reach some kind of agreement over the Macedonians (ethnic group) article. I've tried to make the article as neutral and with less explosive and controversial statements as possible, please check the last version by me. In itself, I don't think that it could provoke reaction form anyone. There is none of that ridiculous propaganda of the variety one could find on those pro-Mac websites, regarding their "history and ancestry". Nor is there any of the "they are Bulgarians on Prozac" kind of thing you would normally find on the cover of Ta Nea. The least said the better. If the article is to remain where it is, it only makes sense to emphasise their Slavic background in order to reach a compromise and to avoid misunderstandings. In NO circumstances though must questionable claims from anyone be included. I know you probably think of me as some kind or rabid anti-Greek Albanian nationalist whose only purpose here is to degrade Greece; that is not the case. For example in the Greek language article, I wrote and added the Lord's prayer and the Nicene Creed (it took me hours to write them in polytonic script), I added the phonetics tables, I introduced the IPA, I added whole paragraphs on how modern Greek resembles Ancient Greek, some of which are still there today. Check the edit-history, I don't really hate Greece. I really think that some compromise can be reached and you seem to be one of the few people on that talk page with something approximating sanity, as opposed to those 'blinded by nationalism' users. I do hope that we can work together. REX 17:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I've noticed that you've been trying to be more moderate but I also noticed that you changed my edits on the origin section and the beginning of the article, so I don't really see where your compromise comes into (probably in the edits of others that I haven't been following). Since the article has changed its name then it's absolutely necessarry to point out in its very beginning that it's unrelated to what most people regard as Macedonian. I'm going to be restoring this paragraph completely, knowing that Bomac and his crew will be reverting it everyday (truth hurts but it has to be stated). Similarly I'll be removing the POV pushing of "Macedonian historians" believing in an artificial and racial connection between modern and ancient Macedonian. I know it's only a reference to this comical fact, but it's completely out of context as it adds extreme POVs to a supposedly serious encyclopedia. For the time I'm mass reverting only because I don't have the time to edit independently. The meaning of Neutrality is misunderstood by most editors here in wikipedia (including admins). Neutrality is not about finding a random compromise solution that would satisfy or piss off both opposite parties at an equal degree. Neutrality is about providing raw truth in a gentle manner, even if that means to give support to a party over the other. When this "gentle manner" crosses the limit to hide information, neutrality is simply killed. Miskin 21:19, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Firstly, I changed your edits on the origin section because it was too long, and a link to a disambiguation page would suffice. My compromise can be seen everywhere, I removed that bit about the appalling treatment of the Macedonian-speaking minority in Greece, where even freedom of religion has been tampered with, in recent years. If you don't believe me, see United Nations 61th Session of the Commission on Human Rights 14 March – 22 April 2005, Geneva The Macedonian Minority in Greece. Also, I have removed as many references to Macedonian Slavs (or Macedonians) as possible, replacing them with this ethnic group or they etc. As for your disambiguation paragraph, I'll see if I can convince Bomac to agree with it, he probably will. I agree with you in removing references to genetic linkage between modern day Slavic speaking Macedonians and the Ancient Macedonians. As for you mentioning neutrality, I sincerely hope that you don't think that the article is "neutral" now. Of course it's a fact that these people, whatever they're called, were once part of another larger ethnic group. Just in the same way that Ukrainians and Byelorussians were once Russians, or Kazakhs and Uzbeks were once Turks or Maltese were once Arabs, the list is endless. No one says that the Ukrainians are an artificial nation. Anyway, as far as I know, neutrality is stating and analysing all views, but supporting none of them. I agree with you that since the page is now called Macedonians, a qualifier is not unacceptable. I'll have a word with Bomac about it. REX 22:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Ancient Greek pronunciation - NPOV issue
Hello, I want to warn you that User:Thrax is falsifying the page Ancient Greek pronunciation with unscientific non-NPOV statements that the pronunciation of Classical Greek was the same as that of Modern Greek. I am sure that, some day, he will do the same with other pages on Modern Greek. I urge you to participate in the debate: Talk:Ancient Greek pronunciation and voice your opinion. Maybe there some other users who are intereste in this. Andreas 19:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for participating in this discussion. In Ancient Greek, Thrax states that "Greek philologists have challenged the Erasmian derivations since the 19th century and this has resulted in stalemate" and introduces a "Greek Model" that he confronts with an "Erasmian model". Maybe you wanted to do some editing there. I think that you would be more qualified to do this than I am. Andreas 03:22, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Kastrioti
Thanks for bringing this to my attention - I'll keep an eye on the articles you mentioned and take action if necessary. I note that Kastrioti has already been warned for revert-warring. -- ChrisO 22:29, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Blocked for a 3RR violation.
Thanks for reporting Kastrioti's violation- he's been blocked for 24 hours. However, you violated the three-revert rule as well, and I've therefore blocked you for 24 hours as well. Please try not to continue to revert in the future- if another editor is reverting you, or you are reverting him, it might be best to try and compromise on the talk page, or file a article request for comment, so that other users will be more likely to visit the page and offer suggestions.

If you have any questions, post them on this page (you are allowed to edit this page, even while blocked), and I'll try to answer them as soon as possible. Ral315 (talk) 08:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

The 3RR says: "This policy does not apply to self-reverts, correcting simple vandalism, or reversions for the purpose of maintenance (such as on the Introduction or the Sandbox)." You're most likely not familiar with the content dispute that concerns Epirus, but to change the name of the Comnenus into Mihal Kmneni is almost vandalism material. The guy has been going around in days making revert wars on Greek-related articles, I knew he was gonna get blocked already. They only reason I kept reverting him was in order to keep the right version of those articles for those few hours that they were unattended. He's been breaking 3RR for days and after warning, and I once decided to break it in order to restore the original content page that was being changed with no discussion or reason. Under what regime would I get punished for protecting the "state"? Maybe you should consider removing this unfair block. Miskin 13:43, 13 November 2005 (UTC) Needless to say that I have been blocked in the past for restoring the original page from people who are reverting 3RR, but after I explained the situation to other admins my block was removed, hence why I continue protecting articles. You see blocking people at random and with no warnings actually encourages edit warring, as none of the parties will ever be confident enough to ask for administration support. Miskin 13:55, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not really planning to make any edits today, but if you don't unblock me I'll take this whole event to the mailing list for the sake of the encyclopedia. An administrator should be capable enough of making correct judgement on the editors before taking any actions, otherwise he doesn't deserve to be one. Nothing personal, just my opinion on the flaws on wikipedia's administration system. Miskin 18:17, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You say it's "almost vandalism". The policy says "simple vandalism".  Obviously, if it's ALMOST vandalism, then it's not SIMPLE.  I shouldn't have to stare at the edits, and see if one side is right or not.  If he was changing the name to Adolf Hitler, that's vandalism.  This was a content dispute, and you broke 3RR.  I will not unblock you, and feel free to go to the mailing list.  I enjoy being threatened "for the sake of the encyclopedia".  Ral315 (talk) 23:03, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, your note about how I should have warned was downright laughable. YOU asked me to enforce a 3RR violation, and therefore you knew about the policy.  Stating that you don't deserve to be blocked because I didn't give you a formal warning, despite your knowledge of the policy, and your request to enforce a block on another user, is against every letter of the rules.  It's like complaining when you get your wallet stolen, then stealing someone else's wallet and claiming you didn't know it was wrong.  Ral315 (talk) 23:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

That's right. But that's because I was under the illusion that I was dealing with an adult. In a way, it's not your fault. If society judges that different laws should apply between adults and children, then I suppose wikipedia should apply different rules. Either way I'm reporting you, not for any other reason, just for the sake of wise adminship. Miskin 15:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Wholesale reversions around one point: Reversing a whole series of edits based on a disagreement with one point in it, rather than editing the one point. According to the above citation it does. Read Simple vandalism more carefully next time. Miskin 15:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * One other thing...you mention an administrator's judgment. By rule, we're not supposed to judge who's right and who's wrong, or who's doing so in good faith.  3RR still applies.  Ral315 (talk) 23:17, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. You just made clear what I meant by "mature" adminship. Miskin 15:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

To make the long story short, 3RR explicitely points out: ''The fact that users may be blocked for excessive reverting does not imply that they will be blocked. The admins are under no obligation to block a user for breaking the 3RR, for instance if they see that the problem has been resolved in another manner.'' Even if you don't consider that act as simple vandalism, I would expect from a serious administrator to be mature enough to realise which party can be considered as a "well established editor", and act accordingly. Giving out blocks that are based on an isolated line of 3RR (which is apparently contradicted by others), is not an action of a serious administrator. The 3RR is defined abstractly enough, so that an "experienced" editor such as an admin can take the right decisions. User:Kastriotis, despite his warnings, had started edit-wars in at least 3 different articles and he would revert 30 times a day or so. I reverted 4 times in order to keep the neutral version online, and I get the exact same punishment with no prior warning. That my friend reveals a lack of critical judgment, decisiveness, and maturity. Miskin 15:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

And to make the story even shorter, Simple vandalism states: '''Wholesale reversions around one point Reversing a whole series of edits based on a disagreement with one point in it, rather than editing the one point.''' The edits of User:Kastrioti apply to that rule, so even if you admit your lack of judgement and justify your block by quoting lines from the wiki-rules, you still lose. Miskin 15:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps Miskin should RFC the other editor or we should check with an admin who is familiar with those edits. I think vandalism also reffers to edits that compromise WP's integrity. Anyway. +MATIA &#9742; 23:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Scanderbeg
You were right, Skenderbeg was half-Serbian and half-Albanian! HolyRomanEmperor 20:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually he was many things, that was the way the politics of the Eastern Roman Empire worked. +MATIA &#9742; 21:40, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Skanderbeg's mother being Serbian is common knowledge outside Albania. Some of the Albanian editors in wikipedia actually do admit it, but don't expect from them to put it in the article. And of course don't expect from any administrators to care enough about the reliability of this article's content. Welcome to wikipedia. Miskin 15:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The seal of Scanderbeg that I personally stuck in the article is another example. I'm certain that every single one of the Albanian editors knew about it, but they chose to sweep it under the rug. Why? Because Scanderbeg calls himself the Emperor of the Greeks, in Greek. I can't be arsed anymore to waste my time on ethnic debates agaist 19th century-style nationalism. At the end of the day nobody cares about Skanderbeg except the Albanians themselves, so let them believe in the ridiculous POVs the article says. After all he's all, they got. Him and that pop singer who won the Italian version of Star Academy (or whatever it's called). Miskin 15:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The Macedonians (ethnic group) article has been unlocked and the MacSlavs are running wild. I need support to hold them back. Coming? VMORO 00:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

ancient greek phonology
Hello there! I think we need more info at the relavant article. You may share your thoughts at Talk:Ancient_Greek_phonetics, or you may mention one or more books that we should check at Talk:Ancient_Greek_phonetics. Thanks! +MATIA &#9742; 13:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice but I'm aware of this dispute and I've already stated my opinion on it. I haven't read any phonology-specific books, but the ones I've read on the history of the Greek agree with the general linguistic view, so I don't see what different information a phonology-specific source would provide (except maybe a more detailed approach on the matter). Regards. Miskin 13:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer :) +MATIA &#9742; 13:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Epirus
You have just reverted orthographical changes in Epirus. Check here. I suppose it was a mistake and I would appreciate if you put it back as it were. If you do not agree with the POV sign, just remove it (it was not me who put it anyway). Do not play their game by reverting blindly.

My suggestions: Keep on improving the article. We can add economy, monuments, local songs, rivers, lakes, current issues etc. Let others revert to a much much older version.--FocalPoint 14:43, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. I agree, Epirus needs some work. I'll have a look at it and see if I can suggest a few changes. -- ChrisO 23:00, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Macedonia
why didn't I do anything? Because the article is not on my watchlist, and I don't feel obliged to babysit the entire internet-connected population of the Balkans. I sometimes intervened in Macedonian affairs in the past, but that doesn't mean I'm dedicated to the subject 24/7. Please consider WP:RM or WP:AN/I. regards, dab (&#5839;) 15:26, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Disclaimer on Greeks article
I put the disclaimer there at about the same time that I put the timeline in. It has helped as a tool in reducing the flamewars on the subject, and to keep everyone (over-eager hellenes and hellenophobes alike) from filling up the timeline "me to konto tous kai to makri tous". Of the entire article, the disclaimer (and the timeline in general) have been the parts least subject to edit wars. Please don't delete it without agreement from the other editors. Thanks, Sysin 20:19, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Clarification
Let me clarify something. I am not a Slavophone. A Slavophone is an ethnic Greek who speaks a Slavic language. I am not an ethnic Greek. I was not born in Greece. I was born and living in Canada. My parents are MACEDONIANS and were born in the Greek part of Macedonia. They speak broken Greek for the reason that Macedonian is mostly spoken in the Northern Greek districts. So no Miskin, I do not speak Greek. I speak English and Macedonian. I do however, only know one phrase roughly in Greek : Δεν μιλώ τα ελληνικά, και δεν θέλω να μάθω πώς να μιλήσω τα ελληνικά. Μιλώ Μακεδόνικά και αγγλικά μόνο. - Makedon45

See reply in Talk:Macedonian Slavs. Miskin 15:57, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

from user:makedonas
Kat'arxin eyxaristw gia tin yperaspisi sto thema 'what is fyrom?' pou egrapsa.Auti i apli protasi periexei oli tin apopsi mou gia ta Skopia.Exw asxolithei arketa me to thema.Eimai apo Kozani,spoudasa sti Sofija Voulgarias,kai doulepsa 2 xronia sti florina sta synora me fyrom.Exw pollous filous voulgarous kai skopianous(me tous opoious fysika milaw voulgarika-ta skopianika exoun 10 lekseis diaforetikes apo ta voulgarika!).Fysika exw sizitisei mazi tous gia to thema,alla autoi sto myalo tous exoun plasei enan fantastiko kosmo kai den vgainei akri otan milas mazi tous:)Oi skopianoi einai kathara voulgaroi pou theloun aposxisi apo ti Voulgaria(eksou kai to voulgariko anekdoto:ti menei otan kanei mpanio mia skopiani?-vromiko nero kai kathari voulgara:)Opou mporw na voithisw eimai etoimos...Kales giortes! - user talk:makedonas--Makedonas 12:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Min anisyxeis, exo ki ego mia idea peri tinos prokeitai. Para tis prospathies mas, ta arthra tous einai kata 50% basismena se ethnikistika onoira therinis nyktos. Den peirazei omos, etsi ki allios to kratos tous exei imerominia liksis. Kales giortes. Miskin 15:55, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Vergina
Miskin, I have a very good understanding of this issue. I have restrained User:Macedonia from putting his Slav-Macedonian POV, and I will restrain you too. Putting "Macedonian" in quotes is a provocation. Asserting that there is no such thing as a Macedonian nationality is a provocation. Calling Greek nationalism "patriotism" is a provocation. I love Greece and the Greeks dearly, but I have no illusions about the virulence of petty Greek nationalism. (Yes, I know other people's petty nationalism is just as bad, but I have higher expectations of the Hellenes). I have given up on most of the Greece-Macedonia-Turkey-Cyprus complex of articles, but since this is mainly an article about Vergina as an archaeological site which I have visited, I am continuing to monitor it. Adam 02:01, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I would appreciate if you stopped throwing out words such as 'nationalists' as if they were candy. You can remove the quotes if you like, I had no intention to use them in such manner (we could replace them by single quotes). The term "Macedonian" is used between Greeks in the same manner of "Cretan". It's a regional identification, which is historically with an ethnic Greek origin. I'm not talking about Greek patriots nor nationalists, I'm talking about practically every single Greek there is. So, what I did was to state why do Greeks oppose the name. I never said that they're right or wrong to think so. I think it's a pretty simply concept to understand. The fact is that Greeks do think like that, whether their opinion is right or wrong is irrelevant. Now I call this a fact because it was one of the official arguments that the Greek government presented in the United Nations in order to prevent the use of the Vergina flag, it's not something I'm making it up. It's wikipedia policy to retain the factual version, as you can't compromise with facts. Anyway I suppose that the word "compromise" in your edit summary was a metaphor, you just reverted to an older POV version. Miskin 02:21, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't dispute that virtually all Greeks take a nationalist position on Macedonia - after 20 years of competitive nationalist demagoguery from Panandreou, Mitsotakis etc etc that is hardly surprising. But the fact is that Macedonia is an independent state whose people identify themselves as Macedonians, which on geographical grounds they have a perfect right to do - and even if they didn't they have a right to call their country whatever they like. Sooner or later Greek politicians and Greek public opinion will have to accept that. As to this article, it is an article about a small town and an archaeological site, and not yet another arena for the Greece-Macedonia dispute. The Star of Vergina controversy must be mentioned, but beyond that I think political references should be kept to a minimum. Adam 02:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

PS Please archive this page. Adam 02:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

That's not a nationalist position. You could be an anarchist or a commie, and you would still naturally combine the word "Macedonian" with an ethic Greek. The term "nationalist" is completely misused in that context and I'm obliged to remedy that. To make the long story short, I'll source my edit from a wikipedia article that was supervised by Macedonian Slavs: So now that I hope you understood, with your permission, I'm reverting to a sourced version. Miskin 02:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * "The indeterminate status of the Republic of Macedonia's name arises from a long-running dispute with Greece, which criticizes the use of what it considers to be an Hellenic name and symbols." That's the reason for the dispute, period.

I have rephrased the first sentence to avoid the nationalism v patriotism question, which is of no relevance. I have restored the reference to an implied territorial claim, which was the real and legitimate grounds for objection to Macedonia's use of the Vergina Star and the White Tower as national symbols. I have deleted the references to what Greeks think about the Macedonian question in general, which is not relevant to this question. Adam 03:17, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

That is much better. Miskin 03:31, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Efharisto poli. Adam 03:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

XMK
Miskin, you have just spoiled my little fun with the Slavic "theory". Or didn't you see the "inkblot test" reference? dab (&#5839;) 16:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I must have missed it. I thought it was leftovers of trash sneaked in by Bomac or Makedonski45. Miskin 16:53, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah I completely missed it. And so did he I guess. Miskin 17:01, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

He must have found out after reading this. I know that he's watching my personal page and that he's stalking me in general. He probably read the discussion in XMK and thought "this article disfavors the view that I hate, that's my chance to write whatever" or something along those lines. Makes me wonder why wikipedia doesn't have a policy against such users, whose editing activity is strictly restricted in ethnic edit-warring. Miskin 17:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

borderline vandalism
there are borderline cases. I am being stalked by a borderline vandal myself, recently. In most cases, reasonable editors will outnumber the trolls, and 3RR will prevent the trolls from having any effect. In religious or nationalistic topics, the fundamentalists may outnumber bona fide editors. In these cases, it is best to ask an uninvolved admin to review the case. If no solution is possible, there is always WP:RfAr. But it should not be necessary to take minor trolling to the arbcom, this is an ultima ratio reserved for really persistent disruption. dab (&#5839;) 18:09, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Manakia brothers etc.
Re "And now I'm wondering about yourself". Nothing to wonder about. Though I am of Greek origin, I am not a Greek chauvinist or nationalist, and strive for NPOV. I make mistakes, of course, and am happy to be corrected in a collegial way. I do try to question nationalist myths all around, including of course Macedonian nationalist myths but also Greek nationalist myths. I will certainly not support the so-called "Greek position" automatically. Does that make things clearer? --Macrakis 19:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. Then again terms such as "nationalist" have obtained metaphoric meanings in this place. Miskin 19:37, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * What metaphor did you have in mind? --Macrakis 21:02, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Blocked
You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future.

Two hours admin and a block? :D Miskin

Justice requires sacrifices. Miskin 13:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm blocking you for violating the 3RR, and for more reverts on other articles besides that. I prefer to block rather than protect (I realize you were just unblocked) because blocking targets the offenders, while protection hurts all of our editors. I was responding to the protection request and thought this was a better solution. Please do not use revert warring again, but discussion, or if that gets nowhere, mediation. Dmcdevit·t 18:54, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The discussion pages were literally flooded by me. Did you even look? Doubt it. Miskin 21:25, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Please reread my statement, rather than being rude (and failing to WP:AGF). Discussion does not justify edit warring (nothing does). If that fails, then you ought to resort to mediation, not edit warring. Dmcdevit·t 21:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I wasn't being rude. I was merely pointing out that I did use discussion, and that I wasn't simply revert warring. I removed POV links and blatant unsourced content, which had been added by people who are well-known POV-pushers. According to wikipedia's official policy I have every right to question the validity of unsourced content by moving it to the discussion page (as I did). User:CDThieme did not only not provide sources, ignored the ongoing discussion, but he kept reverting blindly to a version which contained NPOV, Before making excessive reverts to his action, I checked with various administrators (who removed my earlier block), in order to verify that this kind of behaviour violates official policy and is borderline-vandalism that can be reverted. Besides all that, I don't see the point in your trying to change Izehar's tactics. The way he approached this was much more benefitting, as everyone would finally participate on the discussion (Macedonians (ethnic group). Now your block has not only interrupted the on-going discussion, but it has also allowed opposing parties (User:Macedonian) to claim fallacies in attempt to convince the other editors that he was favoured by an admin decision (which is not true as he was also blocked). Now the atmosphere between the debating sides has become much more hostile than before. Lastly, User:Jonathunder who reported us, has never participated in the editing nor the discussion of the Macedonian Slav related articles and their neutrality, so I don't really know what his problem was. You can clearly see in the edit summaries by other editors on Macedonian Orthodox Church the reason why I kept reverting: rvt, the Macedonian orthodox church does not have any roots whatsoever beyond the 1940s and is NOT in communion with any other orthodox jurisdiction. . The fact is that certain editors of certain ethnic groups (oftenly in large numbers), devote their work in wikipedia on making solely nationalist edits, which are almost always unsourced and in question by other editors. You can check on your own the "contributions" of the two editors' who were reverting me, to see if there's actually any. Those are things that in my opinion admins should take into account before sharing blocks and following blindly the rules. Miskin 23:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that even if the other party is reverting against policy or against consensus, engaging in revert wars is not warranted. Under any circumstances. If you are discussing and he is violating policy or consensus, your proper route to follow is mediation, or WP:RFC, or arbitration if it gets that far, not revert warring. The "rude" I was talking about is your assumption that I made the block "blindly", and didn't read the discussion pages or look at the edits to find out what was going on. I did. And I decided that a block was more than warranted. Using blocks is a way to try to end the war without adversely affecting the article itself with protection. If I have ended the edit war and the blocks stimulate both parties to use only discussion rather than reverting, then protection is averted and it is for the better. Dmcdevit·t 00:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Miskin, I have protected the article you violated the 3RR on, so IMO there is little point in your block now. After all, the point of the 3RR is to prevent edit-warring. I am willing to lift your block if you are willing to discuss your changes on the talk page. I'll make the same offer to User:Macedonia who is also blocked. If you want to accept this offer, please e-mail me your IP address so that I can unblock it. Izehar 14:09, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I've sent you an email. Miskin 14:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Unblocked User:Merovingian had already unblocked you. Izehar 16:22, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: Strange block == ==

I don't really know what to think. If the admin in question had warned VMORO before not to make personal attacks and VMORO persisted, then that may fall under the disruption clause of the Blocking policy:
 * Sysops may, at their judgement, block IP addresses or usernames that disrupt the normal functioning of Wikipedia. Such disruption may include changing other users' signed comments, making deliberately misleading edits, harassment, and excessive personal attacks. Users should normally be warned before they are blocked. For dynamic IPs, such blocks should last 24 hours. For static IPs and user names, such blocks should initially last 24 hours, but repeat violators may be blocked for a maximum of one month.

So, by fitting everything into the marked slots, we get: Seems a valid block IMO. Izehar 10:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * A user makes excessive personal attacks
 * The same user is warned to stop
 * The user doesn't stop
 * An admin can block for up to 24 hours at first