User talk:Misortie/Discussion Archive 1

Commenting
''004.034 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).''
 * For men being protectors and maintainers of women, it is true in evolutionary history. Because of the development of homo sapiens, we began to show even more sexual dimorphism than our primate ancestors did. As homo sapiens further began to aggressively pursue a hunter gatherer society, women who have less physical advantages than men when it comes to hunting, began to do other chores besides hunting. As the ecological disaster known as agriculture began, some of these changes stayed in human society, sometimes needed sometimes simply cultural. With the cultural acceptance of women in a work place that does not necessarily favour men, a woman can easily support her family now. As far as beating lightly, it refers to physically moving a woman. For example, shaking her, trying to make her think of the situation at hand. This verse precludes traditional gender relations; many of which don't apply anymore.

''002.222 They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.''
 * There are very few women and men who want to have sexual intercourse when a woman is on her moonflow; that's what this verse refers to. I've heard of this happening from a few kinky sources, but as a major in Biotechnology, it's not something I'd suggest doing medically anyway.

024.002 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
 * Shariah is a very complicated issue; not only was it for specific instances, there were instances where the Prophets or the Imam themselves did not follow shariah as one would have expected. The issue of adultery and fornication was a huge one; how bad is adultery and fornication in and of itself, and how bad is it to the culture at hand? Let's say there was no Islamic injunction against this for the Arabs at hand; having some knowledge of Islamic history, how would Arab culture have viewed those who fornicated? The issue came less from sexually transmitted diseases (which even in the communities most threatened due to blood transfer, such as homosexual men, can easily be avoided), and more from how a woman who committed fornication would be looked down upon, harming people's view of her for the rest of their lives. Also, the issue came of children (the Arabs of this time would us coitus interruptus which obviously is very ineffective considering that sperm comes out prior to the orgasm), who would economically support the children of this child? This is the same reason that it is allowed for men to have sex with slavewomen; the children are like children from other mothers, and in many cases become the successor to the father in political instances like the caliphate. Both the Sunni caliphs and the Shi'a Imams were often children of slavewomen.

Not trying to cause offense, just wondering what you think of them.
 * No problem, I'm happy to answer any questions. After all, Pashtuns are considered the traditional defenders of Islam. :P -- ♥ pashtun ismailiyya  05:17, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I see these are fairly complicated issues which, due to a lack of understanding in there proper context can lead to people misinterpreting them as abuse of women in Islam. I understood that, I just needed a broader answer from an actual Muslim, oh and a Female one at that! Misortie (talk) 10:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

RE:Another question for you.
“You seem intelligent and free thinking, and yet you follow a book that is nothing more than an outdated ideology, good for it's day but now has no meaning in modern day life"

'''The Holy Qur'an 12:111 (Asad's translation) - Indeed, in the stories of these men there is a lesson for those who are endowed with insight. [As for this revelation,”] it could not possibly be a discourse invented [by man]: nay indeed," it is [a divine writ] confirming the truth of whatever there still remains [of earlier revelations], clearly spelling out everything,"' and [offering] guidance and grace unto people who will believe.'''

We can both agree that the idea of simply following a book itself word for word is fallacious, and is an insult to the brevity of the human condition. What the Qur'an has brought, like many revelations before it, is a framework from which human thought and civilization can ascend from. Presuming there is a creator (completely separate from presuming there is a truth), should we assume this creator has given us the ability to reason, to create, to understand, with only the purpose of a narrow understanding of a single text? While some people may have the aforementioned position, no Muslim will ever say this is the meaning of Islam nor the purpose of the Qur'an. The Qur'an, to every Muslim, belongs to a large range of things. In some verses, including some of the ones you showed, it is extremely time specific.

The Holy Qur'an 19:59 (Asad's translation) - Yet they were succeeded by generations [of people] who lost all [thought of] prayer and followed [but] their own lusts; and these will, in time, meet with utter disillusion.

What does it mean to pray? What does it signify? Is it begging some omnipotent deity for more? Or is it signifying the greatness of a single truth that through which humanity can find peaceful submission, the literal meaning of Islam from the Arabic? Can a mankind which worships physical beauty and materialism and talent ever find happiness? Mankind, only by putting away these views that these things have value in comparison to the human soul; to hunger, to offensive war, to pain, can find peace. The Qur'an does not simply say do this and that, it speaks clearly about the state of life and how truth and justice is based upon how we treat it.

We must examine humanity through humanity's eyes. The greatest advances in modern human welfare has been the advent of the Enlightenment, and the advancing of ideas dealing with the rights of human beings and the purpose of governments. Looking throughout history, we discover that these ideas were only mentioned in passing for most faiths, and that most faiths concentrated on individual salvation whether through a certain belief or attaining a certain state of understanding from which one would be enlightened. Would it be right to then say these faiths were the complete answer to human sorrow? How many of these faiths, only after such ideas were founded, began to explore them? Even when these ideas entered into other faiths (such as Judaism through Maimonides), they were extremely in debt not internally, but to the religion which I follow.

The Holy Qura'n 4: 75 (Asad's translation) - And how could you refuse to fight in the cause of God and of the utterly helpless men and women and children who are crying, "O our Sustainer! Lead us forth [to freedom] out of this land whose people are oppressors, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, a protector, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, one who will bring us succour!"

One of the major underlying themes throughout the Qur'an is that it explains to humanity the folly of “polytheism”. One might be tempted to think it was simply attacking a form of theism, but rather, it attacks the worship in human society of all except a truth. This itself marked an important epoch in human history, and one that is still undergoing, of the destruction of worship other than the Truth which encompasses the human element. Pain, suffering; are these the things that one should worry about, or should one rather worry about a formulaic belief such as X is God or by doing Y one shall be enlightened?

This single theme in the Qur'an alone (out of its many) was expounded by many civilizations and their philosophers. I have studied other faiths, and read their scriptures, but in the end I became disillusioned. Truth and justice can only be understood through being a human being, through seeing suffering, through as the Qur'an teaches us, opening our eyes to it and ending it with both our bodies and our hearts. This is but one of the many messages of the Qur'an. One might say such things are self-evident, but even if they are, their application has been pitiful.

I really do appreciate you asking these questions; only through learning and understanding can mankind be helped, whether that learning is Islamic or not. To end this post, there is a famous story about the philosopher Nasir Khusraw. He was quite the alcoholic you see, and once in a dream an Islamic religious figure came to him in a dream. When he was told to take on righteousness he told the religious figure that no religion in the world could numb him like alcohol did. And the religious figure told him that any teacher that teaches him to numb himself to the world is misleading him. Truth is not to shun human relationships, material goods, and sexual pleasure. Rather, it is to open our eyes to these things and the world around us in order to discover the Truth, for our own self, and our brothers and sisters in humanity. -- Afghana [talk]  07:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)