User talk:Mitchumch/sandbox

Question
I would like your input on a proposed article list. The proposed article list is a list of campaigns that were part of the civil rights movement. The list would not be restricted to the southern United States. As an example for proposed list, see List of World War II battles. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Mitchumch (talk) 05:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, I could consult with you on that. The tricky problem will be to set a definition and parameters for "campaign." Brucehartford (talk) 17:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you for responding. I agree with your assessment regarding the tricky problem.  At this point, I am apprehensive about my capacity to determine the parameter and definition for "campaign."  Compiling the list is a way for me to determine the proper scope of the article list.  What are your thoughts?


 * I've also sought the input of User:Randy Kryn. He suggested I create a sandbox page with the proposed list article.  I have done so at User:Mitchumch/sandbox.  It is a skeletal outline for the proposal.  The list is unimpressive in appearance.  First, I have included articles currently listed in the Template:African-American Civil Rights Movement.  Next, I will began to add the civil conflicts listed on the Civil Rights Movement Veterans website in the History & Timeline section.  From there I will began reviewing scholarly/academic sources and add entries as I go along.


 * I welcome any entries you think should be included. Please feel free to add them.  Mitchumch (talk) 04:49, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

After looking at your sandbox, the term "campaign" in your context is confusing to me because I wouldn't normally consider a speech by the president or a conference to be a "campaign." Perhaps "notable events" or "notable activities" related to the CRM would be more inclusive than "campaign."

As to the tricky question of which events/activities are significant enough to include in your list, perhaps rather than you trying to build a list of "significant" events/activities, instead you list events/activities that already have been chronicled or that in your opinion deserve an article. That's a subtle distinction, but it seems to me the advantage is that you don't have to decide what is, or isn't, significant, you let other people do that by whether or not they choose to create or suggest an article.

In looking at your sandbox list, I suggest you consider grouping components withing general articles rather than separate articles for each component. For example, you propose: St. Augustine movement: 1963–1964, St. Augustine school integration, St. Augustine sit-ins, Woolworths sit-in: July 18, 1963, St. Augustine night marches, St. Augustine selective buying campaign:, Ponce Motor Lodge, Monson Motor Lodge swimming pool incident. But for me, all of those events were in a continuous timeline by the same group of people so I see them as components of the "St. Augustine movement: 1963–1964" that should be included in an article about that movement rather than have separate articles. Brucehartford (talk) 16:31, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


 * You are correct that a speech or conference is not a movement. I've removed those two entries to reduce confusion.  I still want to develop a list of campaigns or movements.


 * In response to your thoughts about the tricky question, I agree totally.


 * I definitely agree that individual events/activities that were part of a local movement should go into a single article. Let me clarify the reason I'm creating a list of events/activities for a single locality.  I was making a sublist for later use.  Afterwards, I can pick a local movement, work with existing content throughout wikipedia, and combine the material into one article page and build it up from that point.  I've removed redlinks where no article or section within an article exists to remove confusion.


 * One more thing you will eventually notice about the list. My objective with this list is to also capture the counteroffensive campaigns of movement activists or participants.  If I find a wikipedia article, then I will list those entries within the proper locality.


 * On a separate note, I have a question about a conflict of claims on the 1956 timeline article at CRMV. The "Clinton, Tennessee — Desegregation of First White School (August)" section states Clinton High School was the first to desegregate.  Howvever, the Before Clinton or Little Rock, Oak Ridge Integration Made History article from Knoxville News Sentinel contradicts that claim.  What are your thoughts?


 * If I've misunderstood any points, please let me know.   Mitchumch (talk) 10:04, 24 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I hadn't known about Oak Ridge, I'll review the Timeline article and revise it, thanks. It's noteworthy, though, that at that time, Oak Ridge was governed by the AEC (a federal agency) rather than local elected officials who only had "advisory" power. So the Oak Ridge situation was, to some degree, similar to the desegregation of military-run grade schools on southern military bases that were desegregated by command order in 1953.


 * On another point, Mitch, since developing this list is your project, perhaps it would be better for you to create your own User and Talk pages and run discussions from there. I don't mind that the initial discussion has been started on my page, but since it's your project, your page and your Sandbox is where it should be held. Brucehartford (talk) 15:23, 24 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, good. I'll "watch" this page.


 * Hi guys, I haven't read the latest entries here, or the page itself, mostly because of time (have to sign off again now) but also to give Mitch the time to enact his vision. Will pay closer attention, thanks, and back later. Randy Kryn 12:49, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Organizations?
Do you want to include the major organizations in your list, or only events/campaigns? I added a few, and a few Alabama. I'll add more when I have time.

I also started adding some multi-state campaigns. I don't have time to search through Wikipedia to see if there is already some article about the event I added, most likely there isn't but you might want to check. Brucehartford (talk) 15:28, 28 June 2015 (UTC)


 * In regards to the list of organizations, please add them. I will start stub articles in sandboxes using Template:Infobox civil conflict for each local movement.  Afterwards, I can transfer those organizations to their respective templates and add increasing details.  I will also link each sandbox stub article to their respective movement on my main sandbox page.


 * In regards to the multi-state campaigns, that's great. I also have no problem finding existing articles or article sections within en.wikipedia.  Mitchumch (talk) 05:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, nice job so far in terms of completeness, I know nothing about most of the local city movement activity, so many of the names are new to me. Some good catches as well of obscure movements. I've made a few edits, a major page which has yet to be written is the Nashville Open Theater Movement, which is perhaps the most major-little-known movement of the era. Others I couldn't fit into a section, take the actions in Marion during the 1965 Selma Voting Rights Movement. There was much activity in Marion (maybe you include those in Black Belt activities) but it was organized by people from, and a part of, the Selma Movement. Also see Clara Luper's page for data on the Oklahoma City sit-ins, she was a grand lady. Thanks, will be back. Randy Kryn 16:07, 27 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks Randy for the compliments and sorry for the late response. I've reorganized your contributions and moved them to the respective sandbox pages.  Some of the contributions were duplicates of what existed in the sandbox page.  Some were new and I did the same thing - moved to their respective sandbox page.  I will try to set-up all the remaining red links into sandbox pages.  That way, additional content can be added whenever you find something.


 * Regarding the Nashville Open Theater Movement, I had not encountered anything about it. However, the literature on the CRM is vast.  Like yourself, most of these movements are obscure to me as well.  In regards to the Marion activity, I'll place it in the list as Selma and Marion movement.  There are a few other movements that are also multi-municipality movements.  I am trying to accommodate movement entries as I discover them.  Don't be scared to add anything.  It's only a sandbox page - no harm, no foul.


 * Regarding the Oklahoma sit-ins and Clara Luper, I had come across scholarly literature about them but did not set-up the Oklahoma movement sandbox page to incorporate them. Once I set-up all the redlink sandpages, then I can incorporate all the individuals in the CRM template that you created into their respective sandpages.


 * Also, for any movement that was organized across more than one county, a "multi-county" subsection was created for those activities. Examples include Selma to Montgomery marches and Alabama Voting Rights Project.  The same is also true for "multi-state" movement activities by a single organization, group, or individual.  An example, Meredith March Against Fear.


 * I think I covered everything. If I did something without giving an explanation, then please let me know.  Thanks again for adding content.  Mitchumch (talk) 05:15, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Mitch, and glad to see you are still hard at research and work. To comment on some of what you wrote, the Nashville Open Theater Movement occurred after the first meeting of SNCC, its founding meeting, where Bevel said that everyone decided that opening the theaters would be the next action. He went back to Nashville to work on that agreement, and set up its movement which, of course, he ran and organized. It was successful, but nobody else set up a movement on the issue. Again, Bevel initiated, organized, and directed a movement (as he would from then on until King's death). That's why there wasn't a separate Marion movement, it was part of the Selma Movement. Dividing up these major movements into segments, like multi-county activities in the Selma Voting Rights Movement, or some of the other things you are setting up pages for, seems to diminish the scope that these centralized movements worked on and brought forward. Don't many of them already have pages, or are covered in the page on that particular movement already? or, if not, couldn't those pages be expanded to include many of the items you are placing into sandbox segments? Through this you seem to be learning and sharing quite a bit of data, thanks. I, like Bruce and many others, have our own mental timelines which describe what the overall Civil Rights Movement was and did in those key years, and I would recommend that if you would like to get a fuller picture that you study James Bevel's work and where and how his work brought the movement activities into the country's recognition and acceptance of the major change which took place over a very short period of time. And, of course, people like Clara Luper, one of the unsung activists who set out to do something and did it successfully, without violence and by creating actions which themselves created a dialogue, will be better "sung" by your project. Nice work. Randy Kryn 23:32, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


 * there wasn't a separate Marion movement
 * there wasn't a separate Marion movement


 * I don't want to create non-existent local movements. Bruce set-up the multi-state section and listed various projects and campaigns that were operated by various organizations.  I extended that format to individual states to reflect that some campaigns or projects were operated across counties within states.  It also helps my research.  Not every locality will have a sizable body of academic literature to work from.  I can go into local newspapers to do my research.


 * Do you know the number and names of the various projects that SCLC and James Bevel created? If so, then I can place the localities under those projects so I know where to look for information.  Please remember, this list is focused on the CRM from a geographical standpoint.


 * Dividing up these major movements into segments ... seems to diminish the scope that these centralized movements worked on


 * Listing the parts of a centralized campaign, movement, or project that stretched into various localities should be possible without diminishing the scope of a movement. Please give me a better arrangement here so I can better understand what your aiming for.


 * Don't many of them already have pages, or are covered in the page on that particular movement already?


 * No, virtually +95% of them don't have pages set-up. That was a major factor for the creation of this page.  This situation also reflects popular conceptions of the CRM.  Popular conception being Montgomery, Selma, Birmingham, Greensboro, Little Rock, Freedom rides constitute the entirety of the CRM.  I read countless criticisms of this popular account in academic literature by scholars.  This geographical approach to CRM will rectify this problem with the wikipedia topic on CRM.


 * couldn't those pages be expanded to include many of the items you are placing into sandbox segments?


 * I can't expand pages that doesn't exists. I get the impression that I have misunderstood your point. If so, then please let me know.


 * have our own mental timelines which describe what the overall Civil Rights Movement was


 * I am only following the lead of academia and reputable news outlets. That's why I am currently adding citations to various localities.  Also, I understand the thesis that you presented in essays regarding James Bevel's role in CRM, but those essays will have to be synthesized along with other scholarly accounts into a single account.


 * Also, at this point I am only skimming the literature on CRM and trying to flesh out a sandbox page structure I can use to build upon. Please keep in mind this is only a sandbox and not an article.  What you see now may change substantially in the future.


 * I hope I addressed your points. If I have misunderstood anything, then please let me know.  Mitchumch (talk) 18:58, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi. I'll answer you more thoroughly in the near future, but maybe it's me who has misunderstood. I didn't realize that you were creating basically a geographical map of the movement activities in article form, covering as many of the localities where people organized as you can. Nice. I thought you were going to flesh out each and every item on the list, hence the sandboxes, in terms of complete movement data. And that might be what you are going for. It gets more interesting as the weeks go by, nice work. Randy Kryn 19:28, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm glade you'd raised issues surrounding local movements and their connections to a project organized by one or a coalition of organizations. That needs to be addressed on the list of local movements.


 * In regards to "flesh out each and every item on the list" I do want to write articles on those local movements - at least stub articles. But I want to make it very clear and unambiguous that a local movement was linked to a project.  The project itself deserves its own article, regardless if the project was a multi- state, county, or municipality project.  Again, I am trying to create a CRM list of battles comparable to List of World War II battles.  A reader should be able to quickly get a birds eye-view of the CRM with a list.  Thank you for raising good points.  Mitchumch (talk) 20:01, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Does anyone know source of claim?
Does anyone know where I can find a Justice Department report that claims,


 * "According to the Justice Department, in the 10 weeks before King's "I have a dream" speech there were 758 demonstrations in 186 cities resulting in 14,733 arrests."

I have repeatedly seen this claim mentioned by countless books, but I cannot track down the original source document. This quote came from

FYI, I have read the report Civil Rights: Year End Summary (1963) by the Southern Regional Council for comparable stats. Thanks. Mitchumch (talk) 17:37, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * No, I haven't personally heard of this or even why people thought it was needed. The Birmingham Children's Crusade, in the city itself and by the students planning on marching along the highways to Washington, had given the Kennedy administration the public and private nod to fully go ahead with writing a Civil Rights Act which was added to by SCLC, and this promised to end discrimination in public facilities nationwide. Many people outside of the movement organized things that they thought were part of the movement (such as the later Cicero March which occurred after SCLC had ended the Chicago Open Housing Movement because of private promises that a Fair Housing Act would be forthcoming), but were protesting about things which were already accomplished in name if not yet in deed. Randy Kryn 23:40, 9 August 2015 (UTC)