User talk:Mjpresson/Archive 2

I would like your advice
Greetings fellow filth fan:

I could use your advice in dealing with an editing skirmish.

Backstory

I heard John Waters say he cast Edith Massey in his movies because of her Chatty Cathy voice, so I checked out the Wiki entry on Chatty Cathy. It needed editing to conform to Wiki standards, so I rewrote parts of it; others did too. Just when the entry was starting to resemble something remotely Wiki-like, a self-proclaimed Chatty Cathy expert began repeatedly reverting to earlier, lesser versions of the entry.

At this point I began communicating with Chattissimo. Sorry to insert such a long block of text below, but if you read it, I think you'll see why I'm so frustrated:

Chattissimo: I am the expert on this topic and if you would like to edit, fine. But do NOT try to re-write something that you know only a little about.

Kinkyturnip: I've noticed you've recently made some changes to the Chatty Cathy and Charmin' Chatty entries. I'd like to gently remind you that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such, a dry, detached, dispassionate writing style is its hallmark. So even when writing about something you may think is cute and cuddly such as a doll, it's not appropriate to refer to it as "her" or mention "her tiny little hands" or "introducing her to it's (sic) new owner." (I understand many people make the mistake of using "it's" as a possessive when they mean "its", the proper possessive. But if everyone would take just a few minutes to proofread what they've written/added/edited/deleted, these common grammar mistakes are easily spotted.)

Also, when revising text, think about where specialized information you may have should most logically appear, instead of inserting text willy-nilly without regard for chronology, context, etc. Also, it's best to ask ourselves, "How can I explain Chatty Cathy to readers who know little or nothing about this subject?" When I'm writing for Wikipedia, I try to keep in mind the catchphrase from Dragnet: "Just the facts, ma'am."

I want to thank you for your esoteric contributions to these entries. After all, few people know how many phrases a doll made almost 50 years ago could say, what outfits it came with, etc. So I think your highly specialized fetish for certain aspects of popular culture is indeed commendable.

When I clicked on the link to your talk pages, the first thing I saw was a confrontational statement. While everyone is indeed entitled to their opinions and free to write what they like, I'd like to suggest softening it up a bit to conform to the friendly, collaborative nature of a daunting project such as Wikipedia.

By the way, do you have a photo of the doll(s) you could provide for the article(s)? I'm guessing you have quite a doll collection!

Thanks again for your input, and feel free to contact me. Cheers.

Chattissimo: Hey Kinkyturnip, how do I contact you? When I click on your talk page...when it says eMail this user it comes up with nothing.

Kinkyturnip: Just click on the word "talk" next to my username above your last comment.

By the way, if you visit the Mattel website listed at the bottom of the See 'n Say wiki entry, you'll see that the toy company itself spells it with a lowercase "n". So please don't change the correct spelling in the See 'n Say entry--it's time-consuming to correct each separate mention of See 'n Say, and I'd rather not. Thanks.

Chattissimo: I should say that the information that I am using is the 1965 Mattel Catalog and the printing on the original packaging. The See 'N Say is spelled just that way and you find that alot in the packaging for other things too... Charmin' Chatty's outfit Let's Talk 'N Travel in Foreign Lands pop into my head. I still cannot make this thing work... when I click on talk it just goes to a page with instructions on how to use Wikipedia.

Kinkyturnip,this is for you!!!!!!!!!!!! I have collected Mattel toys for more than 30 years and I have pictures of more than 1000 things. I have usually tried to get things that have never been removed from the box to get that rare and perfect picture. But I do NOT have a huge collection, as most things I buy get photographed and then sold... My favorite doll though is Charmin' Chatty and I do have a small collection of her and the things that were sold separately for her. But there is so much to write that most people don't care about. Such as the fact that her tiny Chatty Records were black vinyl at first, but they warped and had such flaws like the record surface getting bubbled up... they changed it to white vinyl very quickly. When I spoke with Ruth Handler at a doll show in NYC she told me that Charmin' Chatty was one Mattel doll that very nearly didn't happen! Shocking huh? So you might say that I am approaching much of this like a curator. I am using Mattel's own information from the 1960's along with things gleened from a variety of other sources. I do not pay much attention to what Mattel says now as they are not that great on the subject of their own history... they would bore you all day long talking about Barbie and Hot Wheels... only because they still sell them... never a mention of Chatty Cathy or any of the talking dolls and toys that were so much of their success in the '60s and '70s. You should watch the You Tube Chatty Cathy and Charmin' Chatty commercials!!!!!!!!!! Chattissimo

Kinkyturnip: If you can cite a reliable source, consider including the change from black to white vinyl used in Chatty Records. I don't collect Chattys, I collect rock records, but I found this most interesting. I'm having a hard time finding sources for citations. I'll probably have to endure reading that Chatty Cathy and her Talking Friends book. I'm already dreading it because the title is distressingly sloppy--the H in her should be capitalized. But I'll try to approach it with an open mind. With nearly 2,500 separate Wiki edits, I hardly have time to read.

Thank again for your input.

Chattissimo: Kinkyturnip, My pat response to your last note is, "do we have to be so technical?". I suppose when you think you are writing the encyclopedia... I really DID have an editor that went over the book with a fine tooth comb. I chose the title, BUT, not the spelling. You would really like the book and I honestly hope you get a copy... and READ it. You will see what I am talking about in some of my assertions about the history of the Chatty dolls and toys. I was just at a party at Mattel and wrote the Elliot Handler wiki article... have you seen that? Keep in touch, Chattissimo!

Kinkyturnip: I had no idea you wrote Chatty Cathy and her Talking Friends, but I'm glad you mentioned it, because it raises several troubling issues:


 * One of the five pillars of Wikipedia is neutral point of view. Are you able to be neutral writing about a subject that is near and dear to you?
 * This entry has been tagged for lack of in-text citations. Would it be proper for you to cite a book you wrote when writing for Wikipedia?
 * Another Wikipedia policy is reliable, third-party references for citations. You are not a third party — you wrote the book yourself.
 * Anyone interested in painstaking details about Chatty Cathy and her ilk (e.g., the packaging, detailed descriptions of every outfit, the exact corporate jargon name for the toy maker Mattel) can read your book rather than glean the information from here.
 * Inserting the website address for your book's publisher is bad form at the least, self-promotion at worst. And it violates Wiki guidelines.

I hope you will consider these issues carefully before making further edits to this entry and others whose subjects appear in your book.

I will be conferring with a colleague about the best way to handle this, but I'm leaning toward dispute resolution and/or involving Wiki administrators. I hope you understand the ethical issues raised here.

Still with me, or are you pulling your hair out yet?
If you don't want to get involved in this dispute, I would certainly understand. I'm requesting your help because you're a good writer and I trust your judgment. E.g., if I made changes to John Waters entries and you didn't agree with them, I would not be offended if you undid the changes because you have good writing chops. On the other hand, Chattissimo's first Wiki article on Elliot Handler falls far short of Wiki standards and should probably be deleted or merged into the Mattel entry.

Again, sorry to be such a Chatty Cathy, but I needed some advice. Cheers. Keep up the good work. Kinkyturnip (talk) 17:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)