User talk:Mmberney

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Hello, Mmberney, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome! -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:34, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
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Reference Errors on 7 September
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Nomination of Carbuncle Awards for deletion
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Draft:Storm Barra Started
Hello. I am letting editors who worked on 2021–22 European windstorm season that I started Draft:Storm Barra as it is expected to impact people, (and not a fish storm), it could gain enough notability to have its own article. Elijahandskip (talk) 03:14, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, someone created the article (ignoring the draft), see Storm Barra. Elijahandskip (talk) 14:27, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

DYK for Preet Chandi
&mdash; Amakuru (talk) 00:02, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: GM Ringway (November 20)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Compusolus was:

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Compusolus (talk) 10:21, 20 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the feedback, Compusolus. Hopefully the additional citations from verifiable sources will be acceptable now. Mmberney (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

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Your submission at Articles for creation: GM Ringway (January 26)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by DGG was:

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 DGG ( talk ) 08:14, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

St Mark's, present or past tense?
Hi, I'm seeking debate on the above at Talk:St Mark's, Hamilton Terrace.--A bit iffy (talk) 20:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

GM Ringway
As a note, the comments seem to boil down to "It isn't notable *yet*, it is likely that one day it will be". That puts it in better shape than 90%+ of the proposed articles which come through AFC. Any idea when the first move from planning to actual signage or construction will be?Naraht (talk) 17:01, 1 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for your message Naraht, it's good to know that the article is considered in an 'ok' state at the moment. From what I can source, the proposed route is already navigable via Plotaroute, but "Greater Manchester Walking", the organisation awarded the funding, will fully establish the route and install on-the-ground signposting over the next two years. Source: GM Walking. So I guess it'll be a case of keeping an eye out for further updates, just not sure at what point the route will no longer be considered at 'planning stage'. Mmberney (talk) 17:18, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem. Any chance of newspaper coverage of a "groundbreaking" or something indicating that one of the sections is "open". (The money has to be used for *something*. :) Also, what other similar trails exist in the UK. Part of what me *lean* toward it isn't ready is that the entire GM Walking page is in the future tense. But *please* keep updating it and reach out to me when things change somewhat. While pages are generally dealt with randomly, once you get someone who has actually investigated, going to them isn't wrong. :)Naraht (talk) 20:20, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi again Naraht, hope you're well. It's been a few months but I've been periodically adding information and have just expanded the History section with a report about a local council leader having fully completed the route. Would you say that there's suitable evidence now to show that the walking path is publicly open and the article can join mainspace? Many thanks in advance. Mmberney (talk) 14:10, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and submit, I'll approve it when I get back to my computer. After it gets moved, there are categories that should be added based on those in Capital Ring, though some will be different based on where it is in the UK.Naraht (talk) 15:35, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Many thanks for this, BoyTheKingCanDance! Mmberney (talk) 11:30, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

161 Maiden Lane
Thank you for your recent edits to this page; I really appreciate them. I edit-conflicted with you while trying to add information to the page, so I apologize if I forgot to restore some of the changes you made in this edit.

Additionally, I am planning to nominate this article for WP:DYK within the next day or so. Would you be fine with me crediting you as a co-nominator? – Epicgenius (talk) 23:26, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * No apology necessary - you've massively improved the article from when I first edited it (and that was only a couple of suggested sections and a bit more background info). I like to go back to articles and see how they've 'evolved'. More than happy to be a co-nominator; I must admit I didn't know there was such a thing, as I'm still learning a lot about the wider editing process. Many thanks for reaching out. Mmberney (talk) 07:47, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Epicgenius, hope you're well. I just circled back to the article and was a tad embarrassed to read that it was a couple of my previous additions that held up the DYK nomination (consider that a lesson learnt to make sure not to paraphrase!). I gave the article another read through and slightly tweaked it here and there - see what you think. Hopefully it'll be a DYK feature soon :) Mmberney (talk) 10:24, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mmberney, thanks for the heads-up. It's all good - I fixed the close-paraphrasing issue last week, and your most recent changes look good. Everything should be good on that front. As for the DYK, there is currently a backlog of approved DYKs, so it may take a week or two before this article appears on the main page. – Epicgenius (talk) 12:49, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

DYK for 161 Maiden Lane
BorgQueen (talk) 00:06, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you!
Hi, Mmberney, thank you for cleaning up my article on Gabriele Evertz. I do have one question: I thought, the English wikipedia does want me to name not only "New York" but be more specific. Was that wrong? Do i not have to give the federal states of the US as well? Kind regards, and again thank you! Naomi Hennig (talk) 12:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Naomi Hennig, that's no problem at all - Gabriele Evertz is an interesting artist I'd not heard of before, so thank you for creating it! To answer your query, as you had provided links for the specific locations within New York state, for example, "Greenport, Suffolk County", you wouldn't need to provide the link to the state of New York as well.
 * The same goes for cities within countries. As the latter are the names of subjects with which most readers will be at least somewhat familiar, you'd only need to provide links to the former (e.g. Berlin, Germany). Provide a link to the first time a city is mentioned in the article and then don't link repeats of the same locations. I found this page quite helpful when creating and editing articles, as it advises on what to link to or not: Manual of Style/Linking. Happy editing :) Mmberney (talk) 14:29, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, dear Mmberney, thank you very much for the explanation and the wonderful link!!! Kind regards, --Naomi Hennig (talk) 15:40, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Jackie Siegel
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Ashton Hall
Hallo, Lancaster Golf Club is bolded as the target of an incoming redirect - see MOS:BOLDREDIRECT. "13th-century" has a hyphen when it's an adjective, but not when it's a noun: so "13th-century building demolished in 14th century". See MOS:CENTURY. Thanks. Pam D  08:35, 29 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi PamD, thanks for your message. I'd previously seen so many articles where there was no apparent consistency when it came to hyphen usage, it's helpful to know how they should be used. I'll bear this in mind for my future editing. Many thanks. Mmberney (talk) 12:05, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Always happy to explain and teach. I see you found the one I missed! Pam  D  13:29, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @PamD Shouldn't that hyphen in the infobox be deleted as it's a noun? Mmberney (talk) 20:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Aaargh, yes, of course - I think I hit ",rollback" when aiming for "Thank"! So sorry about that. Pam  D  05:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: GM Ringway (August 4)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Asilvering was:

The comment the reviewer left was:

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asilvering (talk) 19:00, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: GM Ringway has been accepted
 GM Ringway, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=GM_Ringway help desk] . Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider.

Thanks again, and happy editing! Naraht (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Unexpected access block
@Yamla - I'm unable to disable the VPN as it's needed so I can work from home for my job. Are you saying VPN access will prevent the ability to edit Wikipedia from now on (which is strange, as I had no issues until today), or that I need to temporarily disable the VPN so that the block will clear, and I can continue with the VPN switched on and still have access? I don't understand why this has only just happened, you see. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmberney (talk • contribs)
 * As a general rule, you need to edit with the VPN switched off. So, the VPN will prevent your ability to edit Wikipedia. As to why it hasn't happened before, most likely Wikipedia simply hadn't noticed the IP address you were using was a VPN. VPNs tend to use hundreds or thousands of IP addresses. --Yamla (talk) 11:00, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Yamla - Thanks for taking the time to explain why this has happened. I would have thought that having a registered user account associated with all the edits that have been / will be made would have been sufficient, but clearly not. --Mmberney

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I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, Mmberney. Thank you for your work on Square Gardens. SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

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&maltese; SunDawn &maltese;   (contact)   07:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, Mmberney. Thank you for your work on Bankside at Colliers Yard. SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

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Manchester buildings
A note of appreciation for your updating/improving some of this Manchester listed building articles I created quite a long time ago. I was rather slapdash then, and on a drive to complete the Grade II* listed list. Glad that someone is having another look at them. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 18:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the note, KJP1, it seems to have become a bit of a 'labour of love' recently and I've enjoyed finding out more about their histories whilst I've been updating :) Best to you, as well. Mmberney (talk) 18:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Ashton Hall
Hallo, after this edit there are red error messages about refs invoked but not defined: could you have another look? Thanks. Pam D  19:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Seems the inadvertent deletion of a ">" was the cause of the error - sorted now, thanks PamD. Mmberney (talk) 20:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Victorian Turkish baths
Hi Mmberney, Thank you for helping to remove some of the errors in this first part of the new article on Victorian Turkish baths. I am most grateful for your proofreading, and for your time taken in correcting the "s, hyphens, and extra spaces my keyboard seems to regularly add at the end of my draft lines. I am especially grateful to you for checking the bibliographical references because though I am a retired librarian, I am used to the AACR rules and not Wiki's rules. Some notes on your changes: 1. Thank you for your correction of title of the Baths and Washhouses Act & Newcastle upon Tyne (my carelessness).

2. In general, however, I have removed most of your wikilinks which distract during the reading process, do not usually relate to further knowledge about the subject of the article, and, I believe, should not aim to be a general index to the encyclopaedia nor a national gazeteer.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Overlink_crisis

At least one of them has not linked to an article important to the subject, but to a sentence in a much broader article.

3. I've removed my own wikilink on 'Hydropathic establishments' because the bracketed (hydros) explains what I mean. A more appropriate link to hydropathy follows later, and would be barred as a repeated link if the first one was retained.

4. I've left your first 'hammams' link (Terminology para2) although I understood that such links are not used when the subject appears in the main 'See also:' references at the end.

5. If I use a phrase which seems convoluted, eg, the London Borough of Camberwell’s Old Kent Road baths I do so advisedly; Camberwell's Old Kent Road baths does not mean the same. The wording could have been improved, and I hope I have now done so, but I understood that it was normal to discuss such changes before making them.

6. Newcastle Infirmary—different (successor) hospital and dates.

7. Forgive my saying so, but a link to Proselytism in the context of this article is, in my opinion, totally irrelevant.

8. I doubt the Co-operative Society would be delighted with your removal of their upper case C!

I am a wiki novice with no other ambition than to leave behind the nucleus of an accurate article on a single subject, in as clear a manner as I can. I have to admit, however, that at the age of 89 I have little patience for long convoluted arguments. In any event, at the moment, anyone searching Wikipedia for 'Turkish baths' is redirected to the article on 'Hammam' (a completely diffferent subject with almost no connection to it) so unless this redirect is changed to the Turkish bath (Disambiguation) page very few people will ever reach it, and I will probably not waste any more time on it. Hammam and Victorian Turkish bath are not synonyms; a search for Turkish bath should redirect straight to the disambiguation page to give searchers a simple choice of as to which of the two articles, or possibly both of the articles, they wish to read. It has been suggested that this completely logical action should only be performed after a lengthy consensus-seeking discussion. We should all live so long!

Thank you again, Mmberney, for your help. Ishpoloni (talk) 17:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi Ishpoloni, thank you for taking the time to message as comprehensively as you have done - it was a very interesting article to read through, which is why proofreading is such an interest of mine (on Wikipedia as well as off of it) as I get the opportunity to learn more about topics I'd not heard much or anything about previously. Please be assured that all of the edits were made in good faith, and given the length of, and level of detail within, the article (thanks to your obvious knowledge and research on the subject) I took the position of "a fresh pair of eyes" on this occasion. So for instance, words used such as "proselytiser" which I (and I'm sure many readers) wouldn't know what it meant without searching elsewhere online, was the reason for the wikilink. Granted, the links to the various towns and cities mentioned in the article may not be all warranted, but when articles are created we also need to consider the audience - can we expect someone to read dozens of paragraphs of 'plain' text with no links to elsewhere within the encyclopedia and not want to quickly link to something they may not have heard of previously before coming back to carry on reading?
 * To respond on two of your comments:
 * 4. Given the length of the article, not linking to a new term (for most readers) and only providing a 'See also' link right at the end is not likely to help comprehension.
 * 8. It's been my understanding that capitalisation of the organisation occurs in the first instance or when it is being directly mentioned by name, but when it's referred to in a sentence as something such as "the co-operative", it remains in lower case.
 * It's taken me quite some time to get to this position, but I try and keep BOLD in mind when editing articles and when I'm not feeling that it's particularly 'controversial' to do so. That being said, I won't be reverting any changes you've made as we've both informed each other of our reasonings.
 * As an aside, I did hope that the Victorian-style Turkish baths nearest to where I live (Victoria Baths in Manchester, opened 1906) may get a mention somewhere in the article :) All the best. Mmberney (talk) 20:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello again Mmberney, Many thanks for your kind words and for your understanding of my approach. This is what makes for mutual respect and trust. I never doubted that your edits were not made in good faith and it is so easy to get too close to what we're involved in that "a fresh pair of eyes" is always welcome.
 * I clearly misunderstood your reason for the 'proselytiser' link; the answer is simply to reword the sentences using a different word, which I have now done.
 * I'm perfectly happy with the Hammam link; it is needed. I simply thought it wasn't allowed. And I take your more general point about the need for links in order to break up the text a bit. But I've so far preferred to use images every couple of paras to try to do that, and have to date added about 80 which were not previously on Commons, in order to re-engage the wandering mind.
 * I will, within the next few days, go through the article again to see if I can add some more relevant links. I was fine with the important 'Finnish sauna' and was going to add one to 'Steam rooms' (ie, Steam bath) till I looked at it. "For other uses, see Water bath " ??? Then when I got to the 2nd para of the History section I became increasingly frustrated by all the irrelevant links, until reaching the last two which might have been helpful. 'Public bath' led to 'Bathing' and 'Public bathing'. As a newbie, I ask, how does one find out if there is a group able to take the whole area of human bathing and structure it with effective 'See:' and 'See also:' references and put 'Disambiguation' into the same dustbin as proselytising!
 * The amazingly successful Wikipedia, brought together with its articles maintained by this fantastic group of dedicated individuals, has taken advantage of the computer-offered opportunities of linking, adding images, audios, and videos so as to outclass, in some ways, the traditional encyclopaedia. But something seriously needs to be done, in my view, with its non-apparent structure, and its chaotic referencing and diverting systems. Please excuse the rant which aims to be a positive one.
 * I was completely wrong about the Rochdale baths, and have reverted to your lower-case 'c'. The baths were not, of course, owned by a Co-op but run co-operatively according to the Rochdale Principles.
 * As for your Manchester 'aside', it was far more than that because it signalled that the end section of 'The VTb today' had a missing sub-section—one noting those closed baths which now have well-organised groups working towards re-opening them. In addition to the Victoria Baths, there are groups in Carlisle and Glasgow working towards the same ends, and the Newcastle upon Tyne women's group was actually successful, so it can be done. I'll add this to the remaining pieces to be written.
 * As an ex-Liverpudlian, I've always had a soft spot for the Manchester baths since the time they won the first BBC Restoration award. Soon afterwards I helped the late, and very much missed, Gill Wright, to produce a leaflet for the baths about their Turkish baths. All the best. Ishpoloni (talk) 14:45, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Corrections to Victorian Turkish baths
Hi, Thank you again, Mmberney, for your help. I wonder if it would save time for both of us if you let me know which errors you intend to correct beforehand. I've already said how grateful I am for the correct key between inclusive date (which my keyboard doesn't seem to have), and I'm delighted that someone has the time to correct them for me.

However, when I use emphases or ampersands there is usually a reason, and I try always to write exactly what I intend to convey. There are always errors, of course, and I am grateful to have them pointed out. But with advance notice I can explain, or even use alterantive phrases which are less obectionable. Best wishes, as always, Ishpoloni (talk) 15:46, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

And yes, it should be 'alternative' and 'objectionable'! Why doesn't wikipedia have a spell-check? Or perhaps it does and I haven't found it. Ishpoloni (talk) 16:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi Ishpoloni, good to hear from you; it'd been quite a while since I'd last seen the article so came back to have a look at it now and it's so comprehensive! I would say, having created a few articles myself now, with the utmost respect, that it can at times seem difficult to realise that they are not "our" articles just because we created them. Contacting the original author to detail what amendments you intend to make isn't what happens on Wikipedia (at least, I'm not aware of this ever taking place); the vast majority of changes are made with the intention to improve the article's readability, accuracy or structure, of course. When we spend so much time developing a particular subject matter, we can perhaps feel a tad defensive about any changes made to it. Just something to bear in mind (I've been in a similar situation myself).
 * The use of the ampersand in articles (when not part of a company's name, for example) is typically informal, and so tends to stick out like a sore thumb in certain circumstances, that's why some were changed in this instance. Similarly when you added bold text to gallery images - if you look at other articles with galleries you'll see that the images don't have titles in bold, regardless of the information beneath them.
 * I'm not sure what you meant by your last sentence regarding 'alternative' and 'objectionable' - those were not words I edited; perhaps that was an earlier change from someone else? All the best. Mmberney (talk) 20:57, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi Mmberney, thank you for your good-natured gentle reply. I was not feeling defensive, but have on occasion consulted with those I know to have been involved with a page before making a change, and then refrained from doing so, and I have also been asked for my views in similar circumstances—though rarely, I admit.
 * I would not knowingly use an ampersand in the text, but in a caption I try also to consider the appearance of the page. So if one pic has a two-line caption which can be simply shortened to match a single line caption aligned with it, I see no harm, and rules, if they exist, should not get in the way unnecessarily. Similarly, I found it essential to separate the location (so that it can easily be searched for on Wikipedia or elsewhere) from the description and I see no other way of doing so in a caption. I don't know if this is another rule, but clarity should be the over-riding factor to be consdered in anything written for someone else.
 * Again, I do not consider the article to be mine, and once I've completed the sections outlined in the article's talk page, I shall retire from fussing over it, and others can continue to update and correct it. At the moment I'm resting until the redirect problem is sorted. There's no point in adding to the page if everyone is directed away from it to Hammam. However, this is under discussion, and we are currently waiting for consensus—though I'm too new to know how and when this is reached. I have been well advised to be patient, and that is what I'm being.
 * The 'alternative' and 'objectionable' was a joke at my own expense since in my self-righteous indicatiion that 'I try always to write exactly what I intend to convey', I actually made two spelling mistakes. All the best. Ishpoloni (talk) 22:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

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