User talk:Mo-Al/Archive 2

Re: WP:HE
Hi Mo-Al! Good point about those words (and many more). There are still some cases where it's pronounced /a/, like in Zoharim (lights), etc. I will amend the guideline accordingly. —Ynhockey (Talk) 10:38, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

welcome in aramic
בקשר ל-Reference_desk כתבת נכון, תוכל לראות כאן. אגב, איך אתה יודע כל כך הרבה שפות? --ישראל קרול (talk) 00:17, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * תודה בשבל העזרה. ובעצם אני רק יכול לדבר באנגלית ובעברית. אני מתעניין בשפות אבל קשה לי למצוא את הזמן והסבלנות ללמוד שפה אחת עד שאני יכול להביע את עצמי ברהיטות. Mo-Al (talk) 03:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Hebrew grammar
Hi Mo-Al! I've found the article Hebrew grammar over on the July 2007 articles to be copyedited list. Since I've recently copyedited a couple of language articles I thought I'd give it try, but may need some help. Do you mind if I ask for help, should I get stuck; or alternatively, would you like to take a shot at this first, as your expertise is much greater than mine, and then I can clean up the prose if necessary. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:15, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd certainly be willing to help. Do you know of any articles on grammars of specific languages which are currently high-quality? It would be useful to have a reference for what the format of an article of this type should be like. Mo-Al (talk) 21:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The only one I know of is Otomi grammar that Maunus created. I don't think he's completed it. The Hebrew grammar looks fairly comprehensive and I'm not sure why it's on the list, but it would be nice to get it cleaned up and take off the template. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well my first concern regarding this article is the phonetic transcription. Oriental Hebrew has the phonemes /ħ, ʕ/, which have merged into /χ, ʔ/ in non-Oriental Hebrew, and Oriental Hebrew also has /e/ and gemination in places where non-Oriental Hebrew does not. I'm not sure how much of this should be included. The article seems to go for a strange compromise by notating /ħ/ but nothing else, which doesn't make much sense to me. (By the way, my impression is that the majority of Israelis, especially younger speakers, are non-Oriental in speech.) Your input on this issue would be appreciated. Mo-Al (talk) 08:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, this is being resolved currently, so I don't think we need to worry about it. Mo-Al (talk) 22:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Question
What is the meaning of your statement that "there is no phonemic shva in modern Hebrew"? Debresser (talk) 18:07, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I may have meant to write "phonetic" instead of "phonemic", but I think this is still a true statement. Phonetically the sound [ə] doesn't exist in Modern Hebrew, replaced by [e] or null, and phonologically I see no reason why one would need to posit the existence of a separate phoneme /ə/ rather than explaining e-null alternations morphologically. Mo-Al (talk) 08:15, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It meant the phonetic side of things. Isn't there a [ə] in a word like "lecha" (to you)? Debresser (talk) 08:56, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No. In Modern Israeli Hebrew it's pronounced /leˈχa/. I can give you citations for that if you want. Mo-Al (talk) 16:55, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * What is the difference? I am not familiar with phonetic writing, just a little. But I ''do' speak Hebrew, and from what I seem to remember, that is a real shva. Could you give examples from English perhaps? Debresser (talk) 21:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I also speak Hebrew. The difference isn't totally contrastive in English since you don't really have [e] in unstressed syllables or [ə] in stressed syllables. However if you listen to the sound files at close-mid front unrounded vowel and mid central vowel you should see that the vowel in "lecha" sounds more like the former. Mo-Al (talk) 03:56, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It is as I suspected. The pronunciation of "lecha" doesn't come close to the sound file at close-mid front unrounded vowel but is precisely like in mid central vowel. So it should be "ləˈχa". You said you have citations saying otherwise? Debresser (talk) 10:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The one I was thinking of is the article in the Handbook of the IPA. The article Hebrew phonology agrees with me also, and I think there was a long discussion about this elsewhere. Out of curiosity, are you an Israeli? Because my impression is that many non-native speakers pronounce [ə] because they were taught to use it, even though it isn't found commonly in Israel. Mo-Al (talk) 21:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I asked the question there. Debresser (talk) 23:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I suppose we ought to take this discussion there anyway. Mo-Al (talk) 23:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I added some Hebrew, an interwiki and a sound file to the question there. But I didn't add another entry, because I really wouldn't want the two of us to clutter up the discussion to such an extend that others will refrain from replying. Thanks for your understanding. Debresser (talk) 06:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your help on the Chara phonology. Just noticed it! Now I can get back to work on that page! -Iudæus (talk) 01:25, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Central Morocco Tamazight

 * Hello!
 * You asked me about the source of the map that I made, I just remember that it was on a thesis of which I had a Pdf copy on my computer. Unfortunately, I lost most of my data with my hard drive, and I don't remember anything about the thesis, except that it was about languages in Morocco. However, by recovering my data, I got an edited version on which I marked the "citadin"-Arabic dialects for my personal use.
 * On the other hand, you can find the same information on other maps on some reliable websites such as the U-Laval page, or less reliable ones such as "apprendrelekabyle.com".
 * However, some specs such as Colin consider the eastern and north-eastern areas of my map as, the INALCO website reports the same information.
 * The INALCO website explains the situation by the fact that "Towards the North-East, the dialects have more Rifian phonetic and grammatical features, and towards the South (High Atlas and Jebel Sargho), the dialects approach the Tachelhit, so that the border between the two dialects is very uncertain."
 * (Plus l’on avance vers le Nord-Est, plus les parlers présentent des traits phonétiques et grammaticaux "rifains" ; plus l’on descend vers le Sud (Haut-Atlas et Djebel Sargho), plus l’on se rapproche du chleuh, au point que la frontière entre les deux variétés est très indécise.)
 * If there is any way I can make a more precise map... ;)
 * Regards,
 * Omar-Toons (talk) 20:13, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. For now I guess everything is fine. However, I'll definitely try to locate the source of that map -- it seems quite rare to come across Amazigh demographic information in that level of detail! Mo-Al (talk) 23:35, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

CMT
Central-Morocco Tamazight

It is necessary for these changes. due to the unification all Berber Dialects Upper North and the Upper South. the Term Central Tamazight is vague; it implies that all Dialects of the Middle-Atlas, High-Atlas, Anti-Atlas, Plains and Valleys and the greater canyon area.

Tachelhit Language is a Dialect of Central Tamazight.

when one, says " CENTRAL-TAMAZIGHT" it implies to all dialects of Central Area: Morocco (Tachelhit and it's sub-dialects, Tazenatit, Tandhirit, Taseghrushenit, etc..)

If you say Central-Upper-North-Tamazight (Middle-Atlas and area) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrar (talk • contribs) 00:46, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's carry out the discussion on your talk page. Mo-Al (talk) 18:28, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

(IRCAM - Royal Institute) Regulated a "National Standard Tamazight Language of Morocco" (TZM, ISO 639-3). IRCAM unified all Tribe dialects of Morocco.

(IRCAM) did NOT regulated one single regional/or a Tribe dialect.

since 2001, IRCAM (The Royal institute of the Amazigh Culture)  has committed it self to unify all dialects of Morocco, in order to  Standardized Tamazight Language of Morocco. And IT DID (TZM Standard Tamazight, For All Morocco).

TRIBE DIALECTS : (here are SOME: tribe dialects of Morocco; used): Ayt Achtouken,  Ayt Seghrouchen, Ayt Ihahan, Ayt Ntif, Tazerwalt, Ayt Hadiddu, Beni Iznacen, Ayt Igdmiwn, Ayt Ba'amran, Ayt Uwawzgit, Ait Atta, Imjjad, Ayt Yafelman, Zkara,  Mtalsa, Beni Ouriarel,  Beni Amret, etc....…(Rif-Highlands, Middle-Atlas, High-Atlas, Anti-Atlas)

Not true.only a few unknown authors use this term (central Morocco Tamazight). ALL Sources and authors use the words “Middle-Atlas”.

It is Formerly Known (Middle-Atlas/Moyen-Atlas ) and the most widely used term in all sources and publishing. eg. Linguistics, Phonology, researcher etc…

REMEMBER: Berber dialects of Morocco, are base on each  tribe,  not a region. The term "Middle-Atlas" ; remember, it  WAS use  for research : to differentiate the dialects with in the region.

Each tribe has there own distinct intonation of speech. especially in (Middle-Atlas, High-Atlas, Anit-Atlas) area

Classification of Berber languages

Group 1. Atlas Languages: Tashelhit and Middle Atlas Berber

Group 2. Zenati languages: Bem Ouarayn, Rif, Chawia,

Group 3. Kabyle

Group 4. Touareg, Ghadamsi

Group 5. Zenaga of" Mauntania

Here are Some : Linguistics and Phonology: researchers and authors on Berber Language and People

Abdel Massih; Edmond Destaing; J.-M. Dugoujon and G. Philippson; Maarren G. Kossmann; Dell, Francois; Elmedlaoui, Muhammad; Louali, Naïma; Lameen, Souag. Adrar (talk 08:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that this is a good suggestion, and I would like to rename the page. However, first let's figure out the details. Do you think "Central Atlas Tamazight" would be acceptable? Mo-Al (talk) 13:38, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Atlas Berber
There's a proposal to merge the Atlas lects of Berber, in case you're interested. — kwami (talk) 20:47, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Berber Latin alphabet
OK merci c'est juste. c'est plus correcte. Merci bcp.--196.217.203.230 (talk) 10:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * De rien :) Mo-Al (talk) 18:18, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Berber Latin Alphabet
Hi,

About your question on the Berber Latin Alphabet:

Sure. Check the contents of the link I provided. In the zip file go to the folder "1-5Presentacion" and then go to the PDF document called "(4) TRANSLITERACI¯N)".

http://www.melillainternet.org/general/mliltamazight/pdf%20CAMINANDO%20.zip

Also check the Berber Catalan worldlist from the University of Barcelona, which was compiled by Berber and Catalan linguists.

regards,

--Tussna (talk) 12:21, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi,
 * Thanks for taking interest in this topic. Your point about popular usage of the alphabet is valid, but linguists' practices do count especially when their works are destined primarily for the general reader. Bear in mind that Berber is in its early stages of transformation into mass writing and publishing. So we mostly have to look at what linguists publish (dictionaries, wordlists, grammar books...). There is an incubating Berber literature which uses the Berber Latin alphabet (not identical to INALCO's version, but sometimes very close) but most of it is published in paper and isn't available online.


 * In Catalonia, Spain, the people who authored the Berber-Catalan wordlist are also involved in a pilot project of teaching Berber to children of Moroccan migrants. So the alphabet is indeed being used there at least.


 * In Melilla, Spain/north Morocco, there is also a similar education project underway. That's why the grammar manuals (link below) were compiled in the first place.
 * http://www.melillainternet.org/mliltamazight.html


 * There is the element of politics of course. Pan-Arab governments of North Africa don't want to allow Berber to be written in Latin letters, fearing it will empower it and enable it to rival Arabic and French (inside North Africa). That's why most of those Latin alphabet-based initiatives come from abroad (France-Inalco, Spain-Univ. of Barcelona...). For example, you can't find Algerian of Moroccan schoolbooks in Berber with Latin characters because they simply don't exist. So the popular use of varieties of the Berber Latin alphabet (INALCO's, and the other ones) is usually dispersed over hundreds of websites and some books and poetry/literature works here and there.


 * Have a look at some of these websites containing Berber texts or lists:


 * http://www.azawan.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tussna (talk • contribs) 20:40, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * http://amaynu.net/


 * http://www.mondeberbere.com/


 * "La llengua rifenya"


 * "Webster's Tamazight-English Thesaurus"

--Tussna (talk) 20:38, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * J' ai lu ces discussions et j' approuve que Mr Tussna milite pour propager le langages des jeunes paresseux de web facile.. Vous trouvez là un intéressant ouvrage étude de Mr boukous le président de l' institue royal culture amazigh IRCAM .. J' espere que le monsieur qui semme les fausses caractére cesse de le faire.
 * Clavier tamazight talatinit en ligne:

--196.217.214.75 (talk) 10:37, 12 January 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.217.214.75 (talk) 10:00, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * You know what? Since this is apparently so controversial, I'll change the article so that both sides get their say. Mo-Al (talk) 02:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

El male rachamim
Shalom! As your are the original author of this article, would you not agree that a full translation should be provided for these Hebrew prayer version, given this is the English Wikipedia site? Looking forward! Le'hitraot! Kvitlach (talk) 23:10, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Today's motto
Thanks a lot! :-$   After figuring it out, I have added Number 8 signal (with appropriate redirect). --Thnidu (talk) 19:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Translation
Hey are you currently still involved in English to Hebrew translations on Wikipedia? AJona1992 (talk) 21:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Not so much but I can take a look if you need something translated. Mo-Al (talk) 06:30, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well I've been trying to create the Selena article in the Hebrew Wikipedia, but since I barely know the language the stub-article has been deleted. You don't have to do this if you don't want to. Cheers, and take care, AJona1992 (talk) 14:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've created something at סלינה. Mo-Al (talk) 17:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the time to create the article, your such a big help! Take care, AJona1992 (talk) 17:53, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Mau or miu, miit or miut?
Please answer, why according to Sir Budge an Egyptian word for cat was "mau" or it was a word for Ra's personification into a tom-cat? Why other sources give other words? Which one is more correct? Thank you in advance, -- Zara-arush (talk) 21:46, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I can't answer your question completely. I will tell you that -t is a feminine suffix in Egyptian, so I imagine "miut" is a female cat and "miu" a male cat. Mo-Al (talk) 16:29, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Proto-Semitic
Just as a side-sciptum, just wanted to emphasize that my recent comment on the PS talk page was in reference to what was visible on the talk page as well as what was currently visible on the article page (as opposed to the page that was current when the original poster made his/her comment) (in short, I was knowingly being lazy and not looking at the older page, but guessing on what might have been there from what was currently available). Also, want to emphasize my appreciation for your work I have seen on other WP pages. I avoid yiddish terms (I tend to stick to Hebrew, I'm ashkenazi-avoidant like that, no offense intended), but from what I have observed, your are a real mensch (do they have a mensch barnstar? they should). — al-Shimoni  (talk) 14:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much :) My range of knowledge is pretty narrow, so I'm glad someone finds what I'm doing useful. But in any case, I wouldn't take my old comments too seriously. Mo-Al (talk) 22:50, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Niqqudot
You interest in the alepbeyt wouldn't extend to the other systems of niqqudot, would it (Babylonian, Samaritan, etc)? I know WP is in need of elaborating on these other systems, but the information available to me i not too great. — al-Shimoni  (talk) 12:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I have been meaning to add information about these systems, as well as cleaning up the Tiberian article. I'll try to get to that soon. Mo-Al (talk) 16:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. :) — al-Shimoni  (talk) 07:13, 19 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I, just now, noticed that you had added articles for the Tiberian, Babylonian, and Samaritan systems (created soon after the above conversation, many months ago). Wanted to express appreciation to you for these additions to WP. :) — al-Shimoni  (talk) 10:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Vowel Reflexes
Was looking at your new addition with the vowel reflexes. I like it. But, I was wondering if it was possible to somehow indicate the Tiberian niqqud that the vowel is representing in each case where the Tiberian IPA vowel is indicated. The problem is, I don't really see any elegant way of doing that. I guess the niqqud could represent a group of cells, which would be accurate on the one hand in that each of those reflexes are represented in the Tiberian system with a particular sign (although their sounds are/may-be different). But on the other hand, it would be inaccurate as the non-Tiberian versions did not use the Tiberian niqqudot. I think having the Tiberian niqqud shown in some way would be helpful, especially if a reader isn't sure which Tiberian tradition is used (ie, Ashk/Seph/Yemn/etc.), but other reasons too. What thoughts do you have on this? — al-Shimoni  (talk) 09:52, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it would make more sense to explain how vowels were indicated graphically in the orthography section... Mo-Al (talk) 16:40, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * This is similar to what I've been trying to get at long-windedly at Talk:Biblical Hebrew. Our two separate lists/charts at Biblical Hebrew and niqqud ("Proto-Hebrew [u] has the following Tiberian reflexes" + "The Tiberian niqqud have the following phonological values") are left to the reader to be combined logically. Somewhere it would be appropriate to answer the question more straightforwardly, "How do you get from the Hebrew word as it is printed in BHS and the pronunciations taught in textbooks to a reconstructed pronunciation?"
 * Let me repeat my thanks for your interest & responsiveness here on your personal talk page! Wareh (talk) 22:29, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I would like to make it possible for a reader to figure this out; my concern is doing this without showing bias towards Tiberian Hebrew vis-a-vis the other traditions. I intend to add a chart in the orthography section that clarifies the phonetic values of the niqqud in the various traditions. Mo-Al (talk) 01:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Biblical Hebrew
Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I am glad to be reviewing the article Biblical Hebrew you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. – Quadell (talk) 19:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, I note that the lead of the Hebrew language article links Classical Hebrew and Biblical Hebrew separately, though one is now redirected to the other. Should this be reworded in the Hebrew Language article? If so, how? All the best, – Quadell (talk) 19:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The term "Classical Hebrew" may or may not include Mishnaic Hebrew as well as Biblical Hebrew; I'll try to make that clear in the Biblical Hebrew article. Mo-Al (talk) 08:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I have finished the review, and it is now on-hold, awaiting the resolution of a few remaining issues. You have already fixed most of the issues I have identified, so there is only a little left, and I have no doubt you'll take care of it soon. Thanks a lot! – Quadell (talk) 12:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Hebrew Language Article
I'm not terribly certain that this article should be broken up or not. What I am sure of is that the plethora of arcane items seems a might excessive. I've studied Biblical Hebrew for many years and am far from a whiz-bang. I'm better at Koine` and able to read and understand the general gist of things in it. Ivrit is another matter. One of the things I found a little difficult in this entry is the organization and lack of hyperlinked arcane terms. I now must try to install several language aids I don't have in order to really understand the glyphs that came through as ? & O's.

Ivrit is the love of my life even though I am a rank hacker. One of my great interests is learning more about ancient proto Ivrit. What always annoys me are assertions that TORAH was handed down orally to the Cohanim. Moses as a son of Pharoah would have of necessity learned to read, write, and speak at least two to four different languages: Ivrit from his real family until he was weaned about age three;Exodus 2: 8-10; "Bible History" Book 2 Chap 3 pg 158 Edersheim, Alfred A., Hendrickson Publishers, copyright 1995. Egyptian because he was legally in line to become Pharoah; ibid, Canaanitic-Assyrian for commerce and Cushite Ethiopic should one accept Flavius Josephus Antiq. II.10.1&2 along with several earlier Greek and Roman writers of which I forget their names and am unable to give a citation for. The very idea that Moses could easily converse with the high priest of Midyan indicates either a high paucity of actual deviation of the languages involved, a highly developed sign language like unto the Native Americans, or an incredible linguistic ability of Moses or a combination thereof in the late 17th Century BCE; see "Sepher HaYasher Chap 67:17-41. Also according to Sepher HaYasher, Avraham sat at the feet of Noach and Shem (Malki-Tzedek) as a young man; 9:4-6. The Chronology works. Yet the Bavel account clearly tells us that no one could understand each other. We have in fact many thousands of baked clay documents from the 4th Millenia BCE clearly showing that amongst the educated classes there was very little difficulty translating one to another. My gut instinct is that while the people might not be able to actually speak Summerian they like myself with koine`could read Summerian. The geminate and regular tri-consonantal roots are the most fascinating and sheerly stupendous feature of Ivrit, and to me a major clue to to solving the puzzle. As Dr. Danny Ben Gigy points out if you understand the word picture of the consonants you can divine the root's basic thrust. That is true Godlike genius, and means that all users of tri-consonantal word pictures could permit and probably did converse in one form or another. The entire language is pure genius of adaptation. And no, I do not believe Moshe stumbled upon the High Priest of Midian by accident. Either Amram or Yochaved told Moshe where his distant kinsman could be found. *see Sepher Hayasher 67:17-41* These omissions of reality are rather bothersome in several supposedly scholarly works. When we trace back Jacob, Isaac, and Avraham we always find they had no difficulty conversing in Chaldean, Canaanite. or Egyptian. Again linguistic genius, a lingua franca of pidgin dialect, or sign language? Okay, please forgive me for running off on that tangent.

I would really have liked to see the changing alephbet comparisons of the tri-consonantal languages according to the word picture idea. Not being a linguist of any sort, it would be of great help to me. Lastly in my ben Asher Leningrad text, are numerous references to the gaya? Hunh? What's that? Is that sort of like the ancient letter ghayin?

If I may be permitted, may I suggest simply slightly altering the format into separate sections with a little more detail in the foggy areas. Sort of like, tell me what you are going to say; then tell me what you have to say; and lastly tell me what what you have said in each area. I really would liked to have had more information and examples in a number of areas. But please let me be clear, I really enjoyed reading the various stages and forms Ivrit has gone through. I would like them clarified a little for goy idiots, such as myself. But I really got a handle for the first time on how incorrect my understanding of Ivrit was. That was a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And I am very grateful for the article. hsd24.239.28.229 (talk) 04:13, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Hopefully the articles will improve to your liking in the near future. Also, the term ga'ya is a synonym for the Hebrew punctuation mark meteg. Mo-Al (talk) 04:28, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry to butt in on your Talk page, but I thought I would add some thoughts: I'm fairly sure the article will be improving quite a bit in the near future (especially if Mo-Al has interest in improving it — a little more unsolicited praise for the work you do). Right now the Hebrew Language article is in quite a bit of a transition as it's focus was changed not too long ago, and what was contained there before had been moved to another article with a narrower focus.
 * Regarding the request for changing alphabet comparison, if you are referring to the alphabet itself, the Hebrew Alphabet article does this partly, however it doesn't currently directly reference the original pictographs from which the letters are based (some of those pictographs we have an idea of what they looked like, but many are currently still guesswork — Brian Colless (sp?) has done quite a bit in recent years on this, however there are a couple of his proposals I, myself, don't think he is correct on). If you look at articles for the individual letters, they use to depict (the|a few) proposed pictographs from which the letters derived (I believe Mr. Colless's work was the basis of these). I haven't looked at those pages for a while, but a quick glance at a couple pages just now showed that dalet, and heh still have these.
 * If you are referring to triconsonantal roots meaning being derived from a combination of pictographs to convey that meaning, I don't think you will likely find this in Wikipedia at any point in the near future. There is a person who has done his own original "research" who proposes this idea, but his view is considered fringe, and nearly all scholars do not believe there is anything to support his idea. Many of his proposed pictographic "etymologies" are a bit of a stretch of the imagination, and wouldn't be plain and obvious to someone who had just encountered a pictographic word. So, for now, I don't think his work is eligible for Wiki inclusion.
 * Hopefully this was helpful to you. — al-Shimoni  (talk) 17:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)