User talk:Moerou toukon

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Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place  after the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! Phillip Rosenthal 08:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
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You're welcome
That's exactly the kind of sentiment we need to make this a better encyclopedia. If you need any help let me know. Best wishes! Phillip Rosenthal 11:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No problem, actually once you have edited your sandbox or userpage too many times it's a good idea to have it deleted. You should copy/paste the code somewhere and make a new page. That way valuable WP space is saved and several kilobytes worth of useless personal page history versions are removed. The speedy delete may take one hour or upto three hours, depending upon the amount of pages listed at the given instant. I think mine is overdue as well. Cheers and don't hesitate to ask anything in the future ! Phillip Rosenthal 21:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Alcohol
Thanks for your bold merging of those alcohol articles! --Fl e x (talk|contribs) 23:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't overdo it
I reverted your edits to saddle. Your rearrangement was a bit too bold and inappropriate for the article, which is more about current saddles than historical uses. I suggest that before you take such drastic measures on relatively adequate, and active articles with multiple contributors, (particularly on a topic that your user page does not indicate you know anything about), you may want to consider checking on the talk page and asking for the sense of the group on whether or not anyone will care if you make certain changes.

While some of your material on stirrups was cited and probably as good as what was already in that article (parts of the stirrup article are a total mess grammatically and I have no time to fix it), you do not necessarily have to remove material with a "citation needed" tag just because it's tagged; often editors leave these tags as a "note to self" for themselves or someone else to verify later, when they get around to it (the difference between a wikipedia guideline and a policy is that you don't have to follow the guidelines when they don't fit the situation).

You also (inadvertently, I hope) removed a number of cited statements, I restored them. You also had statements in the material you added that were totally inaccurate (such as people hanging onto the horse by the mane due to lack of stirrups), that I also removed. The rest of your edits I kept, but did some rephrasing to integrate them into the material that was restored.

I did leave out the material that has a fact tag on it (though "February 2007" is hardly "months") However, in the future, unless you are certain the material is in fact inaccurate, it is better to incorporate your new material rather than just toss other people's work wholesale. Usually the person putting in the "citation needed" tag is the one who needs to take the responsibility of removing the challenged material if the contributing editor doesn't verify it.

The stirrup material also did not have to be repeated verbatim in the saddle article, and I have removed it, adding a comment to refer to the stirrup article for details on history.

I don't mean to dampen your enthusiasm, only to urge a bit of caution. I hate going through my watchlist and reverting long edits that people put a lot of work into, but sometimes I must. Montanabw 02:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply
Hi,

I disagree, the specifics are mentioned in the points given below :-


 * History and development sections belongs in the begining. Chronological arrangement is essential for encyclopedic entry.
 * The article had one citation, from the The Kentucky Horse Park. I'll provide the description of that source:-

The Kentucky Horse Park is an equine themed park and competition facility dedicated to man's relationship with the horse. Set on more than 1,200 acres in the heart of Kentucky's famous Bluegrass region, the park is THE place to get close to horses! Home to approximately 50 different breeds, large and small, the park introduces you to the world of the horse. Experience the behind-the-scenes sights and sounds of a real working horse farm as you explore the grounds, and enjoy spectacular live presentations, horse shows and special events throughout the year.

The citation The Kentucky Horse Park does not meet WP:ATT criteria.


 * The citation which I provided were from World Decade for Cultural Development 1988-1997. United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. World Decade Secretariat.

This citation is from a reliable source.

I provided only well sourced content in that article. The remaining is unsourced content that I did not blank as editors may bring reliable sources later.

Moerou toukon 18:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You apparently didn't pay any attention to the footnotes in the stirrup article, there were at least eight. I put most of them there.  Perhaps you didn't mean to, but you blanked several cited paragraphs.  Please do not blank other people's work again.
 * As for the saddle article, the Kentucky Horse Park is the home of the International Museum of the Horse, and a gold mire of reputable research.   The link to Kentucky Horse Park may need to be modified to the proper internal articles, but it provides very good data.
 * The saddle article isn't perfect, but it has been written by people knowledgable about horses. While there may be an argument to be made for putting the history section first, the article has many active editors and it is good "wikiquette" to discuss the matter on the talk page first.  It also is a waste of time to put identical material in different articles when one links to the other.
 * My point is that you appear to be quite new to wikipedia and need to understand that there is a place both for boldness and for seeking consensus. On these articles, discussion and consensus are the way to go.  It took me a lot of work to fix the problems you caused with those two articles and I would please urge you to propose changes on the talk pages, rather than just dive in an mess things up.Montanabw 02:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The reason why I refrained from editing the article further is that after the changes I made I looked up the history section and saw you edit 13 times. Your userpage clearly shows that you're knowledgeable about horseriding and the post above mine indicates that your involvement helped articles reach GA level.


 * I guess it would be unsetteling to have a new user edit the article you've worked so hard on.


 * Having said that, most of the sources in the footnotes section do not meet WP:ATT criteria; If you need any help with the citations I'll be happy to provide you with more reliable journals and books etc.


 * Best Wishes, Moerou toukon

Attribution
Attribution allows for a variety of sources, with some better than others. In the horse world, a tremendous amount of information is not published in peer-reviewed journals and many horse magazines and periodicals do not publish online articles, thus it is a real challenge to find something that was cited in Western Horseman 20 years ago... We have to take what we can get. Wikipedia guidelines understand this, that's why they differentiate between guidelines and politics.

Ironically, much peer-reviewed material on horses, other than as relates to veterinary medicine, is actually written by people who know squat about the animals. The argument over whether horses were first ridden or driven is a classic example. It is easy to find physical evidence of chariots and other metal equipment, it is virtually impossible to find physical evidence of rope or cloth; but cave paintings show people on horseback 2,000 years before chariots appeared. Yet the debate rages...sigh...

Well, hang in there. There are many orphaned articles out there that need work, if they have been neglected for several months, you can probably dive in and not step on any toes. Otherwise, always good to at least skim the talk page and see what people have been doing. Check out SuggestBot, that's a very fun little feature of Wikipedia, and it flags articles that have already been identified as needing help! Montanabw 18:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply
It's no intrusion; I just don't know a whole lot about the topic and I don't have a really strong feeling either way on whether or not this has any potential to be a decent article.--Isotope23 17:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Papermaking
It was not Meatwagon who removed the nonsense from 1863 but me. I replaced it with a more accurate summary, linked to two very fully referenced articles that give far more detail. To claim that the Chinese did not invent printing is just ridiculous, and a source on this subject dated 1863 must be considered outdated (especially when what it is credited as saying is patently nonsense). I notice you removed, without disclosing it in the summary, more material on Chinese paper-making. Do you have a POV on this matter? I shall be reverting your changes. I suggest you look at WP:RS. Johnbod 13:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

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Papermaking
I'll take a look into it. Phillip Rosenthal 04:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. Do take a look. If you need further help then message me as the user is clearly fond of using profane language in encyclopedic articles.
 * Phillip Rosenthal 05:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Gunpowder References
Hi Moerou toukon,

I don't know whether you have a copy of the book Gunpowder, Explosives and the State, but if you do can I ask that you look at page 43? There you will find that pages 42 to 50 were written by Asitesh Bhattacharya and they were first presented at the 25th Symposium of the International Committee for the History of Technology (ICOHTEC), in Lisbon, 1998. They form Chapter 2, entitled Gunpowder and its Applications in Ancient India. Brenda J Buchanan is the editor of the book, not the editor of the chapter. It is considered a misrepresentation to name Dr Buchanan as the author. Pyrotec 09:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Just in case you don't have a copy; here, from the publisher's website, is the [http://www.ashgate.com/subject_area/downloads/sample_chapters/Gunpowder_Explosives_and_the_State_Cont.pdf
 * Contents page]. Perhaps in future you would refrain from marking changes that you disagree with as vandalism. Pyrotec 11:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply. For information, I am basically using the full Harvard referencing plus an ISBN, although the wikipedia article does not provide that depth of explanation; also, whilst wikipedia book references tend to incorporate an ISBN, a Harvard book reference does not. Pyrotec 16:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks
I am asking you to strike-through or remove the unwarranted personal attacks you have now made on me at Talk:Papermaking and Talk:Four_Great_Inventions_of_ancient_China, accusing me of sockpuppetry and "vitriolic Chinese nationalism". Failure to do so (there and anywhere else you have posted such material) will result in the matter being taken further. Johnbod 14:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Reply. Moerou toukon 18:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

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