User talk:MohammedsMagicCamel

January 2024
Hello, I'm RodRabelo7. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions&#32;to Khaybar have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse or the Help desk. Thanks. RodRabelo7 (talk) 23:56, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Khaybar. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. Repeated vandalism may result in the loss of editing privileges. Thank you. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 23:58, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

 You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for making personal attacks towards other editors. If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page:. Girth Summit  (blether) 00:07, 21 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Note: I was not the one who deleted either of your questions on my talk page. Chaotıċ Enby  (talk · contribs) 00:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Apologies, I am still learning how editing Wikipedia works. I do see that you didn't delete them. My mistake. MohammedsMagicCamel (talk) 00:26, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Answering your question
No, it's not about the identity of the people committing ethnic cleansing, it's because we need a consensus in reliable sources to label it as such. See Talk:Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians for a good example of a debate on this topic. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 00:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I see. And you don't feel there's enough of a historical consensus that Khaybar was an incident of ethnic cleansing already? Why? The Jews of Khaybar were expelled and moved by force to Syria/Iraq. The Caliph Umar also forbade all non-Muslims from residing in the entire Hejaz region afterwards. How does this not clearly constitute ethnic cleansing, in your opinion? MohammedsMagicCamel (talk) 00:14, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Do I personally think it was ethnic cleansing? Yes. Same for Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh. Do the majority of historical sources explicitly call it "ethnic cleansing"? That's another question, and you should provide sources to support it. Chaotıċ Enby  (talk · contribs) 00:17, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * That's absurd, though. The majority of historical sources commenting on this event were written dozens, if not hundreds of years, before the term "ethnic cleansing" was even coined in the 1990s in response to the conflict in the former Yugoslavia. How could historical sources possibly utilize a term that didn't even exist yet? MohammedsMagicCamel (talk) 00:21, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * You make a good point, but there are certainly modern sources about this event, and it could be good to check if they use such terms. If you have a few, it could be good to open a discussion on the talk page about it. (I could do it if there are modern historical works describing it in those terms)Even in cases that seem pretty obvious, it can still be contentious to use terms like "ethnic cleansing" (or even more for "genocide"), and it's best to get a consensus beforehand. Chaotıċ Enby  (talk · contribs) 00:24, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * That seems somewhat reasonable, and I understand and appreciate where you're coming from about it, but I'm not seeing much immediately out there that utilizes this specific term.
 * I still think that's likely because most of the sources of this event's occurence are not in English, and the ones that are were mostly published 50-100 years ago, such as the one referenced in the source of the Khaybar article itself. Certainly, the descendants of those who may have committed such an act don't likely want to advertise that their ancestors committed it, no? It seems like under the circumstances, it would be akin to trusting the police to investigate themselves, trusting a government to investigate itself, etc. Given that that is the case, I would again urge you to simply examine the facts as they stand and see if they meet the standard of the definition of the term "ethnic cleansing."
 * I think it is virtually indisputable that they do, and couldn't a discussion/talk be opened based on that alone, and allow those who might disagree to provide evidence to the contrary? MohammedsMagicCamel (talk) 00:35, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's ethnic cleansing, but again, it's just not how Wikipedia works. Verifiability is a stronger criterion than being true, and unfortunately, a label as strong as "ethnic cleansing" is hard to add without sources using the label. While it's true that historical research is often tainted by nationalistic bias, I don't think every person of that ethnicity/religion would be reticent to describing it objectively. Chaotıċ Enby  (talk · contribs) 01:28, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, I understand. Thank you. MohammedsMagicCamel (talk) 03:45, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

OK, stop
Hi - your account is very new, and you are throwing around some outrageously offensive accusations - hence why I have blocked your account. Now, if you are willing to calm down and discuss things, the block doesn't need to be permanent. Please take a moment to read WP:AGF, and WP:V. Once you've done that, if you would like to discuss the possibility of being allowed to edit here, please take a look at the guidance at Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict. Once you have done that, you may follow the guidance at WP:GAB and request that your account be unblocked. Best wishes Girth Summit  (blether)  00:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about, "outrageously offensive accusations?" It's simply recorded and well-documented history, the Jews of Khaybar were expelled by force from their homes and forced to relocate to Syria and Iraq. This is even stated and sourced in the Wiki article about Khaybar itself. It's a historical fact that isn't in dispute. How is this not a clear incident of ethnic cleansing?
 * Moreover, how does this have anything whatsoever to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict? This event occurred centuries before the establishment of the modern state of Israel... MohammedsMagicCamel (talk) 00:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I have misunderstood. Could you explain what you meant by clearly demonstrating their violent intent and lack of willingness to engage in diplomatic efforts towards peace or a two-state solution in this diff? I assumed it was a reference to modern politics in the region. Girth Summit  (blether)  00:31, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see. I thought you were referring to the "ethnic cleansing" aspect of my edits, which was what you blocked my account over (reverted by ChaoticEnby).
 * In that case, yes, that comment was in reference to the Arab-Israeli conflict. I completely understand that comments relating to that conflict can be contentious, but my intent was not to provoke.
 * That being said, is it unreasonable or even a stretch to suggest that individuals who chant a reference to a historical event in which Jews were massacred, subjugated, and then expelled, whilst they claim to be supposedly merely protesting for the rights and freedom of Palestinians, do not have a peaceful and diplomatic intent towards resolution of this conflict in mind?
 * I mean, for heaven's sake, the Iranian military even named a medium-range missile after the event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kheibar_Shekan). The article on Khaybar itself notes that Hamas popularized the chant in its propaganda against Israel.
 * Again, I do appreciate the contentious nature of the situation, but at what point are we ignoring the obvious here? Are Israelis who chant "death to Arabs" to be given the same leeway to suggest that they somehow don't really mean it? I think we should take individuals at their word when they express violent intent, don't you? MohammedsMagicCamel (talk) 00:43, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It's late here, I'll take another look at this tomorrow. Be advised, however, that this is a project where we are trying to write an encyclopedia. We seek to do this by summarising reliable sources. Arguments that run along the lines of 'don't you agree that X equals Y' don't really hold any water here. We try to identify the best sources for any particular subjects, and then summarise their content - that is all. We also try to avoid impugning the motives of our fellow collaborators. You will need to try harder in this regard if you wish to contribute here. Girth Summit  (blether)  01:50, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I understand. Thank you MohammedsMagicCamel (talk) 03:45, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Right, I've looked over your contributions again in more detail. I won't get into the content that you were trying to add and its lack of sourcing, or even the fact that the subject area is contentious, and new editors are not permitted to edit within it. What you did in more that one post on individual users' talk pages was to strongly imply that they were motivated by antisemitism. I don't know what kind of discussion forums you are accustomed to, but here that kind of thing is regarded as a personal attack, as described here, and is not permitted. The fact that your username seems to be designed to be some sort of taunt towards Islam does not help the matter (see WP:UPOL for the username policy). If you want to contribute here, you are at liberty to make another unblock request, but it is unlikely to be granted unless you can demonstrate an understanding of what you did wrong, and a familiarity with the policies and guidelines I've linked to; I would also suggest that a topic ban from this subject area, and a username change request, would be necessary. Girth Summit  (blether)  11:53, 21 January 2024 (UTC)