User talk:Moni3/Castro Street

Due to technical advances ...
The Harvey Milk Institute seems to now point towards the high school in New York, but the actual HMI was "the world's largest center for queer studies" (founded by Jonathan D. Katz) and was later the main tenant and programming wing of the newly built San Francisco LGBT Community Center. They apparently got buried by the centers troubled finances and disbanded somewhere 2004-2005. : Banj e b oi   20:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions
A few suggestions: 1. List some other important people besides Sappho. There was another important Lesbos poet, but I can't think of her name even though I saw it earlier. 2. Perhaps you should mention the myth of the island as influenced by various works including the Odyssey (women forced to turn to other women because of lack of men kind of belief). 3. There are other forms of female/female relationships in history which should probably be mentioned. 4. Linguistically, there was an "expansion" of the term to including things outside of "from Lesbos" then a "narrowing" of the term to exclude "from Lesbos" from the meaning. I can provide you with some linguistic works that can define each process if needed. 5. You should also probably mention the reclassification of "affection" between females. It is still common place for females to hold hands and to kiss, but even that is fading into a sexual/relationship status instead of common place functions. However, there is a constant wavering between these standards. 6. Widow couples and other close bonds of frinedships that tend to happen later in life have sometimes been included as "lesbian" or "pseudo-lesbian" (especially with 18th and 19th century figures). Perhaps a distinction should be made. 7. Perhaps some form of female "homoeroticism" should be discussed, if there is such a term for it so much the better.

That should be just about all that I can think of which should probably come up in some form or another. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:03, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Right now I am just trying to arrange this article into some kind of logical flow. I may end up scrapping this for another outline of some kind.


 * Method to my madness is going to start with the origin of the word, clearly, and how it has been transformed by social concepts of women's sexuality. The history section will discuss some female to female relationships across culture and history, but there is an article for lesbian sexuality as well.


 * I'll take suggestions of course, but this is a very early draft of the article. It's going to take me a bit to complete this one. This topic is one of those that I just am not really excited that I have to do. But the article in mainspace gets questionable edits because it's incomplete and poorly written. No one has come along to fix it yet...so...I guess it has to be me. Yay. --Moni3 (talk) 05:16, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha, I know how that is. Poor Ada Lovelace was hit with attacks all the time until I cited all of the important and controversial material so we could distinguish what was good and what wasn't. Now she is down to being attacked only every other day. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 05:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Comments
I'll put further comments here rather than on your talk page. And, it would be very helpful to see that paper. :-) Graham. Graham Colm Talk 19:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no doubt that BV occurs in celibate women, it's more like thrush (Candida albicans) than an STD in this respect. I can provide a source for this, but trust me for now, I diagnose BV about 10 times every day.
 * HSV 2, is the more commonly sexually transmitted type, but both types are. Why do you specify HSV 1? I'll check the other, non-microbiological, stuff tomorrow, when I'm back at the hospital.
 * I may be able to send you all these papers. Let me know which ones you would like to see. If you email me I can attach. --Moni3 (talk) 19:37, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll email you now. The epidemiology one and this Frenkl TL and Potts J Sexually transmitted infections. would help a lot. Graham Graham Colm Talk 19:44, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Sexually transmitted diseases
 * This part Some sexually transmitted diseases are communicable between women, including Human Papilloma Virus (HPV)—specifically genital warts, squamous intraepithelial lesions, trichomoniasis and Herpes simplex virus (HSV) type 1.
 * - I would change to "Some sexually transmitted diseases are communicable between women, including Human Papilloma Virus (HPV)—specifically genital warts and squamous intraepithelial lesions, trichomoniasis and Herpes simplex virus."

I would not single-out HSV 1 as a culprit because there is little evidence to support it, apart from sero-epidemiological studies. It's just a hypothesis. Squamous intraepithelial lesions are almost certainly caused by HPV.


 * This part Bacterial vaginosis (BV) is considered sexually occurring, but it is unclear if BV is transmitted by sexual contact; it occurs in celibate as well as sexually active women. The rate of BV occurs 2.5 times higher in lesbians than heterosexual women, and often occurs in both partners in a lesbian relationship. - has some problems. "Sexually occuring" is vague (I am not sure what it means) and the increased rate of 2.5 times comes from just one study carried out in Leeds in the U.K. The authors did not exclude other risks (e.g. smoking) as the cause. I stress all women of child bearing age are susceptible to BV regardless of sexual activity.

You need to say something about syphilis and chlamydia, even though the relative risk is unknown.

Overall, I recommend keeping this section as simple as possible.

Ovarian cancer It might be worth adding that lesbians have a much reduced risk of STDs then most gay men.
 * There is a contradiction here No studies have been performed to determine difference in risks for ovarian cancer, - later -  The risk factors for developing ovarian cancer rates are higher in lesbians than heterosexual women, perhaps due to the fact that many lesbians lack protective factors of pregnancy, abortion, contraceptives, breast feeding, and miscarriages - perhaps delete the first sentence?
 * due to the fact that = "because"
 * You write about "receiving" Pap smears. A Pap smear is a test, so you should say "tested by" etc.

Physical


 * This is a little over the top: Medical studies tend to center on white heterosexual males and the branch of medicine dealing specifically with women, gynecology and obstetrics, centers on reproduction. For example, what's Hormone replacement therapy got to do with reproduction? Gynecology does not center on reproduction although it embraces it. And, but not related to this, in the UK more women attend genito-urinary medicine clinics than men. And, exactly what "medical studies" show this tendency?

All the best, Graham. Graham Colm Talk 16:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Graham, thanks once again for reading the sources and nudging me in the right direction. I'm sorry I took so long to get to this. I can't read what I have to read fast enough. However, I have some questions.
 * What do you recommend I say about chlamydia and syphilis? That it can hypothetically be transmitted? The sources I read indicated that, but confirmed cases of transmission were not recorded. If I need to read another source that counters that, I can, or if you recommend pointing out the hypothetical, I can do that too.
 * You recommend adding that lesbians have a much reduced risk of STDs compared to gay men. Did I miss that in the sources? I don't doubt it a bit, but that's a claim that needs pretty good sourcing, and I would like to know the disparity between women sexually active with women and those with men. Furthermore, one study I read suggested that the perceived lowered risk among women may give them false ideas about being safer and not requiring screening for STDs or using safer sex practices. What are your views on this?
 * Made changes based on your suggestions. I may re-visit this section again, as I plan to do with some other sections. Again, I'm open for anything you think may add to the article. Thanks again. --Moni3 (talk) 16:32, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Sources II
Australia:
 * 1) ‘Filthy, obscene and mad’: Engendering “homophobia” in Australia, 1940s-1960s’, in Shirleene Robinson, ed., Homophobia:An Australian History, Federation Press, 2008.
 * 2) 'Prove first you're a male': A farmhand's claim for wages in 1929 Australia', Labour History, No 90, May 2006, pp. 1-21‘
 * 3) “They give up domestic help and go out harvesting”; Women fruit-pickers and fruit-packers in 1912 Australia ', History Australia, vol.2, no.2, 2004, pp.07.1-07.12.
 * 4) ‘Rural Women workers struggling for wage justice through the Commonwealth Arbitration Court in pre-World War 1 Australia’ in Transforming Labour: proceedings of the Eight National Labour History Conference, eds., Bradley Bowden and John Kellet, Brisbane Labour History Association, Brisbane, 2003, pp.133-141.
 * 5) ‘'Sexuality and Madness: Regulating women's gender ‘deviance' through the Asylum', in Catharine Coleborne and Dolly MacKinnon, eds., Madness in Australia: History, Heritage and the Asylum, UQP/API, 2003, pp.109-120.
 * 6) ‘“The man-woman murderer”: sex fraud, sexual inversion and the unmentionable article in 1920s Australia ', Gender and History, vol.12, no.1, April 2000, pp.158-196.
 * 7) ‘Speculating on scrapbooks, sex and desire: issues in lesbian history', Australian Historical Studies, vol. 27, no.106, April 1996, pp.11-26.
 * 8) 'Lesbians and loose women: female sexuality and the women's services during World War 2', in Joy Damousi and Marilyn Lake, eds., Gender and War, Cambridge University Press, 1995, pp.81-104.
 * 9) 'Lady friends and sexual deviationists: lesbians and the law in Australia, 1920s - 1950s' in Diane Kirkby, ed., Sex, Power and Justice: historical perspectives on the law in Australia, 1788-1990, Oxford University Press, 1995, pp.33-49.
 * 10) 'They "were wed, and merrily rang the bells": Gender-crossing and same-sex marriage in Australia, 1900-1940' in Graham Willet and David Phillips, eds., Australian Gay and Lesbian Perspectives 5, Australian Centre for Lesbian and Gay Research, 2000, pp.41-66.
 * 11) ‘Disciplined, punished and resisting bodies: lesbian women and the Australian armed services, 1950s-60s', Lilith: a Feminist History Journal, no. 9, Autumn, 1996, pp.53-77.

Canada:
 * 1) Never going back : a history of queer activism in Canada Tom Warner. Author: Warner, Tom Published: Toronto : University of Toronto Press, 2002.

Etc
 * 1) The literature of lesbianism : a historical anthology from Ariosto to Stonewall
 * 2) The celluloid closet : homosexuality in the movies

possible images
Not sure if it can help but I have a stash of images that I was once working on for the random image bot. -- Banj e b oi   03:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Images are usually the last issue I concentrate on for an article, but in between copy edits, I hope to find some to dress it up. I'd love to find some of Harlem in the 1920s, Greenwich Village during the same time, women in the military in World War II, honest depiction of butch and femme in the 50s, militant feminists in the 1970s, images of romantic friendships or Boston marriages.... whatever I'm covering. Think you may have any of these? If not, I'm going to contact the June Mazer Library and the Lesbian Herstory Archives to see if they have anything I might use. --Moni3 (talk) 04:09, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You've done pretty good at churning up images in that way so I say go for helping the archivists release some. You might also browse through the images at commons as they have tons of older photos and more collections being donated. -- Banj e  b oi   04:26, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Great job
Finally gave a good side by side read of the current lesbian article and this one and it's easy to say, this is a huge improvement. The current article spends a lot of time on the evolution of the word and not on what the hell it means and has meant throughout history to be what is today understood as lesbian.

Have you looked at Lesbian American history lately? I think a lot of the WWII and other American sources you have could really spruce up that article. It looks like it had a motivated editor throughout 2007 who was pushing for good article status, but seems to have disappeared. The current history article also gives short shrift to post-Stonewall developments.

Are you thinking about a culture section? The current culture section is just kind of a mishmosh of famous lesbians (dare I say, celesbians. Aspects of lesbian culture that can be mentioned here are drag king Dyke March Dykes on Bikes Alison Bechdel some of the early or iconic bars etc.  At least to get it started, and maybe someday there will be its own article.

I heartily applaud you for taking this on. I get so caught up in my wikignoming that I couldn't imagine taking on an entire article like this. But I'm here for help as this article progresses. Scarykitty (talk) 05:48, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I appreciate the feedback, really. I did not especially want to take this article on because of the difficulties in writing a neutral and reliable high-quality article on this topic. I think I'm finding some good sources, though, and hope to have this somewhat wrapped up (95% complete) within a couple weeks. I keep finding new sources that seem to be pretty good, so I'm reading and editing at the same time. Though I go through spurts where I am remarkably productive, they are somewhat short-lived and definitely low on attention span. I will consider improving other related articles, such as Lesbian-American history, but it is not uncommon that I have to take a break of months in between writing a large article like this and work on something completely different. I wrote four articles related to the Everglades just to improve that one, and was so maxed out of attention on the Everglades that I haven't gotten around to copy-editing the big one for FA. That was in June and July 2008, and I feel really guilty about it, too.


 * I have not yet considered a section on contemporary culture, but I should. I'm not sure where it will be worked in, or if it should be weaved throughout, perhaps a paragraph or two in Current concepts of lesbian. Since my sources are standard fare for women's studies courses (is what they say), I would also like to keep my sources all at that level. So I need to find scholarly sources to discuss contemporary culture. Read: stay away from Curve and afterellen.com.


 * So to you or anyone else who may be watching this, I hope I am communicating the following in the article:
 * The meaning of Lesbian has changed since its widespread usage around the middle to late 19th century.
 * Lesbian identity was formed due to attempts to improve medical descriptions of women outside the "perfect" or "normal" range of sexual behavior or type. Lesbian identity became more defined with the increase in persecution women encountered.
 * Feminism, and lesbian-feminism in particular, has caused historians to view women's sexuality in the past differently.
 * Though I may not be stating this outright, and I am not sure I can, calling historic relationships lesbian, or women in the past lesbians when they did not use the word for themselves can not be translated to our current concept of what lesbians are, or what they do. Although there may have been lesbian elements to their relationships.


 * If I am not, let me know, and I will make these points stronger.


 * I'm taking any and all suggestions as well. This article needs discussion, and I have stated before I should not be the only person shaping what goes into it. --Moni3 (talk) 14:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Lesbian Sexual Behavior in Relation to STDs and HIV infection
Moni, this is the title of Chapter 14 (pp. 219-235) in:

Sexually Transmitted Diseases Authors: Holmes, King; Sparling, P.; Stamm, Walter; Piot, Peter; Wasserheit, Judith; Corey, Lawrence; Cohen, Myron Division: Professional ISBN-13: 978-0-07-141748-8 ISBN-10: 0071417486 ©2008 | 4th Edition | 2192 pages, Hardcover Status: Active, In Print Price: US$ 249

Below, (which will arrive in instalments), is a summary of the chapter. Graham Colm Talk 13:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Introduction

The term [lesbian] has been used variably, and often carelessly, to convey information about each of three distinct axes of sexuality (orientation, behavior and identity). Unfortunately, imprecise terminology, assumptions about sexual practices and previous sexual history, and general ignorance of the complexity of women's sexuality have all contributed to the relative lack of sophisticated, long-term data on the sexual practices, preferences, and history of a highly diverse group of women. For ease of reference in this chapter the author, (Jeanne M. Marrazzo) uses the term lesbian to define women who have sex with women. When referring specifically to the axis of sexual identity, the term is prefaced with self-identified. (p. 219)

Epidemiology of lesbian sexual behavior

Data to describe the population of women who practice sex with women, whether or not they self-identify as lesbians, is limited for several reasons. The challenges of terminology noted in the Introduction and the social stigma that still makes many women reluctant to disclose (homosexual) behaviors and feelings even in the context of a supposedly anonymous or confidential survey. This may be true for lesbians who live outside major urban areas. Critically, lesbians have been invisible in the data collected as part of the national disease surveillance systems and major women's health studies. (p. 219) The Women's Health Initiative did not begin to collect information on same-sex behavior or sexual identity until 1998, and the Nurses' Health Study began to do so in 1995. (p. 219-220)

In 2000, the US census for the first time collected and reported information referent to households in which two unmarried adults reported being the same sex and had a close personal relationship with each other. Although these data does not specifically focus on sexual behavior, they provide  an indirect and necessarily incomplete window into the prevalence of women who co-habitate. It is estimated that 2-2.8 % of the US population, (or 2 - 3 million) are lesbians. A similar prevalence of around 2-2.8% was estimated for the UK. (p.220)

Sexual identity, risk behaviors, and pregnancy-related outcomes among WSW

In all published studies that have queried lesbians about their lifetime sexual history, the majority of respondents (typically 80-95%) report prior sex with at least one male partner and often report risky sexual behaviors. (p. 221) Many lesbians report lifetime reproductive outcomes pregnancy, childbirth, and induced abortion. Lifetime prevalence of reported pregnancy in the few studies that have addressed this issue ranges from 23-35%. (p. 222)

Epidemiology of STDs and HIV infection in WSW

Despite the considerable numbers of women who engage in same-sex behavior, relatively little data are available on the health outcomes related to STD, or the attributable risk of STDs from sexual practices in which lesbians engage. In its 1999 report Lesbian Health: Current Assessment and Directions for the Future, the Institute of Medicine emphasized that more data on STDs, Pap smear screening, and risk of cervical cancer in lesbians was needed. (p. 223) Taken as a whole, these data-limited as they are-indicate that the risk of STD transmission depends on two major factors: 1. the specific STD under consideration and 2. the sexual practices in which lesbians engage. (p. 223)

Genital Human Papillomavirus

In addition to case reports, two studies that enrolled self-referred lesbians in Seattle have detected HPV DNA in 13-30% of subjects. (P. 225) Among the 150 women in the earlier of the two studies (1995-1997), HPV DNA was present in 30% of the subjects and in 19% who reported no prior sex with men. In the 1998-2001 study HPV DNA was detected in 13% of the 248 women tested. (p.225) Both oncogenic and no-oncogenic HPV types were detected. Both high- and low-grade squamous intra-epithelial lesions were detected by Pap smear in both studies, including among women who reported no prior sex with men. In a large study reporting Pap smear data for lesbians and heterosexual controls in an STD clinic in Melbourne, abnormal Pap smears occurred equally frequently in both groups. (p. 225) There are fewer data available for the clinical diagnosis of genital warts among lesbians, but this condition has been reported among lesbians who denied prior sex with men in several studies. Lesbians should undergo Pap smear screening using current US national guidelines, as recommended in the 2006 Sexually Transmitted Disease Treatment Guidelines form The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Genital Herpes

The majority of genital herpes is caused by HSV type-2 (HSV-2), although recent reports indicate a consistent trend towards more HSV-1 genital disease. In the Seattle Lesbian Health Study antibodies to HSV-1 were detected in 46% and HSV-2 in 8%. (p.226) HSV-1 seroprevalence, (HSV-1 specific antibodies in the blood) increased significantly with increasing numbers of sexual partners. Increasing age predicted higher seroprevalence to both HSV types, and HSV-2  seropositivity was associated with a reported history of having had a male partner genital herpes,  but not with prior number of male sex partners. Of 78 women reporting no prior sex with men, 3% were HSV-2 positive. The majority of the subjects (54%) in the Seattle Lesbian Health Study lacked antibodies to HSV-1. Because genital infection with HSV-1 is most likely acquired during receipt of oral sex, a behavior commonly practised by lesbians, a substantial proportion of lesbians engaging in receptive oral sex may be at risk for genital acquisition of HSV-1. However, other investigators have suggested that decreasing HSV-1 seroprevalence among young adults may place these individuals at a higher risk of subsequent HSV-1 acquisition. (p.227) While no studies have measured lesbians' HSV seroprevalance (exposure), others have assessed lesbians' self-report of genital herpes. Most have used self-referred, volunteer samples and reported a lifetime prevalence of 3.3-7.4%, (can give refs). Of 27 women attending a clinic for lesbians in London in the late 1980s, genital herpes was diagnosed in 3 women (11%). More recently, 1.1% of 708 new attendees of a clinic in Melbourne had genital herpes, including women with no prior sex with men.

HIV

While sexual transmission of HIV between women has been reported, the likelihood is unknown. (p.228) In the US, most HIV positive lesbians have risks factors such as intravenous drug use(IDU). National Surveillance data from reported AIDS cases from 1980-1989 identified 79 women who reported sex with women and 95% also reported IDU. (p. 228) In a study involving 18 discordant lesbian couples, (one HIV positive, the other negative), no transmission the negative partner occurred over several years of observation.

Viral hepatitis

No systematically collected data have been reported on sexual transmission of hepatitis B virus between women and although theoretically possible the frequency is unknown. (p.228)

Chlamydia trachomatis and Neisseria gonorrhoeae

Reports of transmission between women are rare. Clinic-based data from the US, UK and Australia indicate that the prevalence of both these infections is very low in lesbians (typically 3% of less). Among 708 lesbians attending a clinic in London the prevalence of C. trachomatis was 0.6% and that of N. gonorrhoeae 0.3%

Syphilis

Although relatively rare compared to other STDS, sexual transmission between female partners has been reported. Because some lesbians who choose to have sex with men may be more likely to choose bisexual men for partners it is important to note that early syphilis has markedly increased among gay men in the last several years.

Bacterial vaginosis

Although bacterial vaginosis (BV) is not a classic STD in that a specific microbial precipitant has not been found the prevalence of BV in lesbians is high. Studies have shown a prevalence of 24-51% in lesbians compared to 21% of heterosexual women. (p. 229) BV is frequently found in both members of monogamous lesbian couples and BV concordance within couples has been associated with specific sexual behaviors that are likely to result in the transfer of vaginal fluid and oral-anal sex. In a study of women with BV, 81% had partners with with BV whereas only 4% of those without BV had partners with BV (P<0.0001). This and other observations have prompted some authors to propose that transmission of some etiologic factor, as yet undefined, is responsible for BV in lesbians. (p. 229)

Trichomonas vaginalis

Finally, positing that transmission of vaginal fluid is likely during lesbian sex implies that vaginal cross-infection with T. vaginalis should occur. Among 708 women attending a clinic for lesbians in London, trichomoniasis was detected in 1.3%, including lesbians who reported no prior sex with men. (p. 230)

Moni, I hope some of this will be useful. The chapter gives more detail about the studies than I have given in this summary and there is a large table listing common and not so common lesbian sexual practices and the infectious risks involved. Let me know if you need any more detail and/or the primary sources cited in the book. Graham. Graham Colm Talk 17:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Graham, I'm going to try to get copies of this section of the book. It's available in one of the libraries I have access to. I'm coming off a sinus infection that is curtailing my energy and ability to concentrate. Thank you very much for this information. --Moni3 (talk) 19:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Moni, you are very welcome. I pity whoever has to copy the chapter—I can't pick the book up with one hand, it weighs about 2Kg! Best wishes, Graham. PS sorry to hear about your sinuses. Graham Colm Talk 22:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)