User talk:Morriswa/Archives/2012/January

US 17-1
IF that highway designation was actually signed, it would not have used the marker generated by the "US" type. That type of marker was developed in 1971, several decades after this highway designation was retired. During the life of US 17-1, it would have used the 1926 specifications for its marker, and that graphic does not yet exist. Please don't change the article back to display an anachronistic marker in in the infobox, thank you.  Imzadi 1979  →   01:20, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for letting me know about the signage for U.S. Route 17-1. I just didn't realize that there was a discrepancy between the article and the sign.
 * On a side note, although I am grateful that you corrected my "short-sightedness", I don't appreciate what I feel (or at least think I feel) was a bit of rudeness toward it.
 * Also, I have a Wikipedia Book that I need help cleaning up. If there are any suggestions that you can give me, please let me know.  Please don't just edit it.  Let me know what you think needs to change (or whatever).  Thank you for your help.
 * One more thing: How do I make my signature (4 tildes) contain a link to my talk page?
 * Allen 01:28, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I wasn't attempting to be rude at all, so I'm sorry if you perceived it that way. There are US 1926, US 1948, US 1961 and US (which would be for the 1971) types for the infobox and jct templates to display the appropriate vintage markers. (Assuming the correct state-specific markers exist as well, the templates will use them.)
 * As for you signature, you'll have to add the link into your signature preferences and tell the server to render that as wikicode. My preferences have  as my signature; the server appends the date and time afterwards automatically. You apparently just have "Allen" as your signature preferences with or without it being treated as wikicode.  Imzadi 1979   →   01:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry about misinterpreting your intentions.
 * I will try to change my signature. Thank you for your help.
 * Allen 01:38, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Just to let you know, but if you generate a book, and you use a link to a redirect, then the book will pull the target of the redirect for printing. I wouldn't be creating redirects just for your book, and I would be careful what redirects you're using because you might end up with articles used twice in surprising ways. Also, WP:USRD is currently in the middle of a stub-reduction drive, so creating stubs is kinda frowned upon at the moment. That isn't to say that stubs are bad, but it's better if an article is expanded to start-class or higher. (Stub class= 0 or 1 of the Big 3, start=2 of the Big 3 and C and higher is all 3 of the RD, History and junction list/exit lists sections.) Sometimes, if there is a better location to add the information, just add it there instead of creating a stub. If the article gets too big at a later date through the course of normal expansion, it can be split apart. The moral is that not every highway needs a separate article. Former Michigan spur routes is proof that sometimes a good list is better than dozens of short stubs with little hope for expansion.  Imzadi 1979  →   06:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I have been trying to make a book that would list EVERY Interstate & U.S. Highways that have formerly existed, currently existed, and are planned to exist, including unsigned ones. If there is any help that you can provide, then that would be very helpful. Allen (talk) 20:14, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I have a book in my userspace right now for every highway that's existed in Michigan. M-131 doesn't appear on the list because it redirects to M-119. M-160 likewise doesn't appear because it redirects into Former Michigan spur routes. Yours sounds like an ambitious project, but honestly, the articles need work first before a book is created, and any book will need future updates to fix as articles are merged or split apart. Work on those articles first, deal with the book later.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:34, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Would a list (or some other format) be better for my "project"?
 * Also, could you refer this to others for help?
 * Thanks.
 * Allen (talk) 02:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Las Vegas Beltway
Are you sure those links are dead as opposed to a temporary problem at the wayback machine? Vegaswikian (talk) 01:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of County Road 210 (St. Johns County, Florida)
The article County Road 210 (St. Johns County, Florida) has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern: Recently recreated article; it was previously PROD-ed with "Non-notable road" as the concern, and yet the new article doesn't address notability. While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons. You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page. Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.  Imzadi 1979  →   02:31, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * To me, that is bad news. I have been wanting this article for a long time.
 * What do I need to do to keep the file?
 * Allen (talk) 02:34, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Contested Deletion - Pirates of the Caribbean 5 (2013 film)
I have removed the Speedy Deletion from Pirates of the Caribbean 5 (2013 film), see the article's |talk page for more detail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callanecc (talk • contribs) 15:15, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

List of State Roads in Florida
While it's great that you are tackling this list, I strongly encourage you to not use Jct in the tables. With over 300 rows and four columns that can take Jct, the page is sure to go over the template limit somewhere around SR 250. Anything below the limit will not display images no matter what you do.

For tables like these, the best practice would be to not use templates at all; everything should be hard coded. Yes, it takes longer, but the page will load much faster in the end. –Fredddie™ 19:51, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Fredddie,
 * I knew nothing about any "template limit". In fact, I just started using the jct template.
 * Do you know of any easier way to do this? The template makes the page look so much better.
 * Allen (talk) 20:36, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Sadly, the only way to get around the template limit is to not use templates. I wouldn't even use route markers for anything but the route name column.  WP:MOSICON suggests icons, which is effectively what the shields are, should be used sparingly where there could be confusion.  Luckily, editors before us created a ton of redirect links for us to use.  For instance,   (Interstate 75 in Florida) can be shortened to   (I-75).  Same with US Highways US 98 and state roads SR A1A. –Fredddie™ 22:35, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The templates actually stopped working around SR 100.
 * Anyway, I have split the article into pieces. Hopefully, that will work.
 * Allen (talk) 22:49, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Splitting the article will create other issues, namely that you will have several lists instead of one. The only graphics that should appear in the table are in the "Road name" column, and none of the other columns. That will mean that you can't use jct in the other columns. There are a number of reasons why you shouldn't use graphics in the other columns. Visually, the graphics are eye catching, and in this sort of article, that focus should be on the subject of each row of the table. Second, the extra graphics increase article loading time. Third, as you've seen, the article hits the template limits, yet you can manually format the entry in the table to bypass the templates.


 * Instead of:
 * use:
 * Florida A1A.svg SR&amp;nbsp;A1A
 * Florida A1A.svg SR A1A (FL)
 * Both options will format the graphic at the same size and format as jct, and produce a link. For the other links in the body of the table, don't include the graphics.  Imzadi 1979  →   23:09, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Both options will format the graphic at the same size and format as jct, and produce a link. For the other links in the body of the table, don't include the graphics.  Imzadi 1979  →   23:09, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


 * If only I had known about this earlier!
 * So, what do we do about the "other" columns?
 * Allen (talk) 23:16, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep the content, but format it using hand-coded links. You can't use jct in the body of an article, so it's not really any different in adding the links in the body of the table.  Imzadi 1979  →   23:24, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I unsplit the list article. I also went through and removed the jct template from the first column of that first table. Lastly, I hardcoded links in the up through SR 11 in the table. Now, since you added the rest of them, I'm leaving it in your hands to take care of the rest. I understand that you probably just figured out how to use jct, and it seems like such a handy invention. Well, it is... except in cases like this one.

That template can only be used so many times in an article before you hit the template limits. For most articles, we never hit the limits, but in ones like this, you can and did hit the limit. (We have a special piece of code in jct that looks to make sure the shield exists; after the 500th time it performs that check, the server defaults to "no, it doesn't exist" and stops looking so the shield graphics stop loading. There are still limits on the total template count as well so you'd eventually stop getting any links.) That's the technical limitations on why you shouldn't use the template. In short, only use jct in the infobox and junction/exit list of regular road articles.

For the practical limitation, it's one of aesthetics. The little shield graphics are eye-catching; that attention should be used on the subject of each row. The roads at the termini don't need that attention, and any roads mentioned in the notes should never have icons. We don't use the icons in the middle of the writing in an article, and we never use them in the notes column of a junction list.

A last couple of items are about some specifics in the formatting. You'll notice that I used  in the image coding. The reason has to do with alternate text for graphics. Run your cursor over the graphics in the first table. Starting with SR 151, you can click on the graphic and load the image description page, but you can't do that below 151. See, the server links each graphic to its description page, but you can turn that off by entering  The blank   generates blank alternate text. If a blind reader of Wikipedia loads this page, his screen reader won't read out loud anything for the graphics formatted that way; it will read something like "link graphic File:Florida 151.svg" before the "SR 151". These are "purely decorative", so jct uses the blank alt and link like I hand-formatted and a screen reader won't read anything for the graphic. (In other articles, like our Featured Articles, we actually take the time to give some alternate text for the photos in the article.)

The &amp;nbsp; code I used instead of a space between SR and A1A is a non-breaking space; you should use that so that a browser can't insert a line break between the two and separate them on different lines. Finally, the  at the top of the table gives a screen reader information so it actually will repeat the column name when it reads each cell in the table. Something like "Road name SR A1A, South or west terminus Bertha Street, Key West, North or east terminus US 1/US 23/US 301/SR 200, Callahan ... ".  Imzadi 1979  →   13:20, 21 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, I did just discover the jct template. And, yes, it does appear to be a very cool thing.
 * Before you told me about it, I knew nothing about template limits.
 * Couldn't we leave the jct template in the first column, and just remove it from the rest? You did say they were eye-catching.  It would just give extra credence to the "subject" of each row.
 * I may have asked this before (blast my defective memory!), but isn't there a script, program, or some other means of automatically doing these edits? It is so time-consuming to do them all by hand.
 * How did you fix the template that included the Florida's Turnpike?
 * Thank you, again, for your help, advice, and insight on this matter.
 * Are there any other road articles/projects/lists/categories/etc. to which I can contribute?
 * Allen (talk) 13:52, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There are going to be too many templates by the time you hit the end of the list, so no, you can't and shouldn't use it. You don't need to split the list up to avoid the template limits because at this point, the article isn't big enough to warrant splitting by size. Now, once all of the cells of all the tables are filled in, we might need to discuss splitting the article in half or thirds (not quarters).
 * There may be a way to write a script to automate this, but I'm not a programmer of such things.
 * All you're using jct to do is create the assembly of . You can do that by hand in this case, which is what I did. (jct can do so much more in more complicated situations, but in this case, you're using the most basic display it produces.) You're still getting the graphic (the eye-catching part) but you're not using the template to do so.
 * As for fixing the line with the turnpike, something to remember is that jct alternates between and . is alternating between type (US), number (41), type (M) and number (28). Well, for the turnpike, the number is ... nothing. You need to use  (notice that the value for a number after that FLTP type code is blank). Some states (the smart ones!) use a type of "TP" for turnpike and a number of "CT" or whatever the state name is, but not Florida. You didn't have enough pipes in there, so it went from a type of FLTP to a number of US to a type of 441 instead of a type of FLTP to a number of to a type of US to a number of 441. All type codes need a number code, even if that number is literally a space or even nothing.
 * Now, I just changed how the "browselinks" at the bottom of the infobox display for Florida. In short, the CR links no longer appear for SR articles and vice versa. It means that someone will need to go through all of the county lists and add the missing coding. I left some comments over on DanTD's talk page on what needs to be done, but this list needs someone to work on it at some point as well.  Imzadi 1979  →   14:16, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Formatting consistency
Just a suggestion but when adding stuff into an article, you should try to match the abbreviation formats used by the rest of the article. In the Santa Ana Freeway article, you used "U.S. 101", yet for California, we use "US 101". Also, you used "California 10", but the CA articles all use "SR 10". (Using a state name and number like that is a roadgeek habit to differentiate between states, but we tend not to do that unless the state DOT does.) Just some food for thought.  Imzadi 1979  →   03:16, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Stub template question
I don't know if you saw the answer or not, but it's archived now. (All state projects except three were demoted last night, their talk pages archived and then the talk pages were redirected to WT:USRD.) The short answer is that stub templates are not created by USRD, but rather by WP:WikiProject Stub Sorting, and they've only created one road stub template per state. There's simply no need to create a type just for CRs.  Imzadi 1979  →   12:28, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the barnstar, but as I told Parsa, we're in the early stages of consolidating stuff. We don't even know if that new star will be kept or deleted. We may deprecate the existing templates and develop one. I'd rather we have that conversation before we create any more barnstars and award them.  Imzadi 1979  →   02:14, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I apologize. I saw it, and I immediately knew I wanted to send it to you.
 * On a side note, what is "deprecated"? I've been seeing it all over Wikipedia, but I haven't heard what it means.
 * Allen (talk) 02:17, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * deprecate: 2. To declare something obsolescent, i.e., to recommend against a function, technique, command, etc, that still works but has been replaced.
 * As an aside, be very careful when you add categories to templates. If you add them directly, instead of wrapping them in  tags, then whatever pages transclude them will be added to the templates. This applies to things like userboxes or barnstars that might not be hosted in the   namespace.  Imzadi 1979   →   05:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, again.
 * Now, what does "transclude"? Is it similar to "include"?
 * Allen (talk) 10:35, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Here's the basic primer on transclusion. In a nutshell, we transclude templates, but we also transclude other things. For instance, on WP:HWY/ACR, the Highway's project A-Class Review page, we are currently transcluding the review pages for California State Route 57, Colorado State Highway 74 and M-553 (Michigan highway). The overall ACR page has references to WikiProject Highways/Assessment/A-Class Review/California State Route 57, WikiProject Highways/Assessment/A-Class Review/Colorado State Highway 74, and WikiProject Highways/Assessment/A-Class Review/M-553 (Michigan highway), and those pages show up in the "Current discussions" section of the main ACR page. The opposite is substitution, which is used in some template situations. Welcome and warning messages are often substituted, which directly adds a copy of the code from the template into the page; no matter how many times that warning template might be updated, the welcome on your talk page won't be changed. Transclusion preserves the "live update" function of a template (update the color of the headers in infobox road and every article changes), but substitution makes a one-time copy of that barnstar on your talk page.  Imzadi 1979  →   11:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)