User talk:Mudwater/Archive 8

NFL Draft section format
Hey, I saw that you're a contributor to college football articles, so could you leave your opinion here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject College football. I'm trying to get responses. Kobra98 (talk) 05:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Brewery Lists
I left a comment on IronGargoyle's talk page regarding the breweries of the U.S. It's really getting crazy! I went to Vermont list today to find a particular brewery and add a citation, only to find the entire list gone and also redirected to another page - and the list had been removed from that page as well! Diffs are in my note to the editor who created the situation. I saw your unanswered communication above and wished to inform you that I am very concerned about this and seek consensus. Any ideas? Ellin Beltz (talk) 16:15, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure of the best way to proceed. I was sort of hoping that more people from WikiProject Beer, or editors watching the "List of breweries in Illinois" page, would comment.  Maybe that'll still happen.  Another idea is to create a Request For Comment.  I've done that a few times before, and it's sometimes a good way to get more editors to participate in a discussion. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:10, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I've never dealt with a situation like this on Wiki; the other editor is rigid and inflexible and is losing information by redirecting the lists to the "Brewing in ____" pages as I pointed out for the Vermont page... His reply was that the list didn't seem "long enough" to include. He's got a lot of opinions, but the way he's wiping out the old pages by redirecting them to a different page without any form of consensus seems like a very strange way to get around using the Merge Tags and following that process instead of being a one-man-band and redirecting everything in sight.  I never used to give a fig about beer articles and I think I may return to that state of bliss.  I have copied out all the information for our local breweries to my home computer to prevent the citations from being lost.  I never thought I'd have to back up a Wikipedia article!  Ellin Beltz (talk) 16:13, 21 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Mudwater, thanks for your work to improve the List of breweries in Illinois article. Also, thanks for your work to improve the The Pizza Tapes article. Steal your square icon.jpg Cheers, Northamerica1000(talk) 16:48, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

A beer for you!

 * Thanks for the feedback, and the beer. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:02, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Just started Dave's Picks 9 article
Greetings. Just to inform you that I just started the Dave's Picks 9 article. TraxPlayer (talk) 23:36, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Cool. Thanks for letting me know. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:03, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

A beer for you!

 * Thanks for the feedback. It's been a lot of work, but I think it was worth it.   — Mudwater (Talk) 17:10, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, major expansions often take significant time, but it's worth it..."line up a long shot maybe try it two times, maybe more..." Northamerica1000(talk) 20:17, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Play All Night: Live at the Beacon Theatre 1992
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Speedy deletion declined: Niagrara Falls (Greg Hawkes album)
Hello Mudwater. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Niagrara Falls (Greg Hawkes album), a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Not a recently created redirect - consider WP:RfD. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:50, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay. Thanks for letting me know. — Mudwater (Talk) 04:31, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I've submitted the redirect to Redirects For Discussion. Feel free to join in the fun, at Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 March 4. — Mudwater (Talk) 12:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 15:20, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

An RfC that you may be interested in...
As one of the previous contributors to Infobox film or as one of the commenters on it's talk page, I would like to inform you that there has been a RfC started on the talk page as to implementation of previously deprecated parameters. Your comments and thoughts on the matter would be welcomed. Happy editing!
 * This message was sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) on behalf of &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (t • e • c) 18:26, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Talk, please
Instead of just reverting my edits, twice now, despite my tweaking the wording, could you please discuss, either here or on the Gun laws in the United States by state talk page? We need to find a compromise here. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 00:09, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Weigh in on discussion?
Hi. Would you care to weigh in on this discussion? It concerns whether a particular review quote should be removed from an article. Dan56 (talk) 11:21, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

"Notable"
There's more meanings to the word "notable" than just those specified in Notability--the dictionary will tell you that. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 00:36, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
 * True! Some editors mistakenly think that all article contents must be notable in the Wikipedia sense of the term.  Glad to hear that you're not one of them.  — Mudwater (Talk) 02:58, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, we've both been around the block a few times here. That Sofie is delicious, by the way. Drmies (talk) 03:25, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Live at Hampton Coliseum
Greetings follow deadhead,

Very nice work with a lot of Grateful Dead articles ? Can you help with this Live at Hampton Coliseum ?

Regards TraxPlayer (talk) 22:59, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Greetings! Thanks for the feedback.  Right now I'm quite busy with a few things off Wikipedia, so I'm not able to spend as much time as I'd like working on articles.  But I'm still here some of the time, so I can probably help with a "Live at Hampton Coliseum" article.  I have several suggestions about this.  (1) When you create an article about an album, or about anything, it's a very good idea to have several reliable, third-party references to use for footnotes.  Good references make an article much better.  And also, if an article doesn't have any references, other editors might question whether the subject of the article meets the notability guidelines.  (2) If you look here, at the redirect for the album, you will see two references that can be used.  In my opinion that would be adequate.  But another approach would be to wait until after the album is released and see if there are more references to use after that.  I think either way would be okay in this case.  (3) If you want to you can work on an article for a while before you actually create it, by editing it on your user page, or an a sub-page of your user page.  That's what I do, but some people prefer not to do it that way, which is okay too.  (4) If you have any questions, just post them here in this section of my talk page.  I'll respond here with a "notification" to you as I've done with this post.  — Mudwater (Talk) 23:38, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, this may be "too much information", but in case you're interested, you will find the Album Article Style Guide at MOS:ALBUM. — Mudwater (Talk) 02:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for useful suggestion and information. TraxPlayer (talk) 06:56, 15 April 2014 (UTC)


 * This evening, inspiration struck, and I felt compelled to create the Live at Hampton Coliseum article. Feel free to improve it if you can.  Thanks. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:09, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Grateful Dead and Counterculture
Yeah, your description nailed it. Thanks!Learner001 (talk) 23:08, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You might dig this: http://austin.culturemap.com/news/arts/10-28-11-08-29-one-of-the-worlds-biggest-deadheads-comes-to-austin-to-talk-about-preserving-the-bands-legacy/ Learner001 (talk) 14:54, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Nice, thanks. Seen this? — Mudwater (Talk) 22:22, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow, what a great article, and a fantastic resource for any number of pages! Thanks so much for sharing! Learner001 (talk) 13:07, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

CSA flag.
Could you help out at the CSA info box flag? I'm at three reverts for the unsourced, never seen, unfabricated "Blood-stained-banner" 3d National Flag of the neo-Confederates. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Notice of duplicated material
While working on another article today, I became aware that there is a newer article that duplicates all/part of the section of an older article. If of interest, please discuss at Talk:Bullet button. Lightbreather (talk) 17:25, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that
Sorry. I thought the person I reverted was adding folk. I misread it and reverted him. Thanks for cleaning up my mess. I wasn't trying to add it. I was trying to remove it. Which it didn't need to be, because it was being removed and not added. Moral of the story: I'm a complete idiot, and need to thank you for cleaning up my idiocy. -- Jayron  32  18:49, 3 May 2014 (UTC)


 * It's wasn't idiocy, but I was pretty sure that your edit was inadvertent, if that's the right word. So, glad I could help out, and thanks for the note. — Mudwater (Talk) 19:16, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

File:PowerglideInsert.jpeg listed for deletion
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:PowerglideInsert.jpeg, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Response to Changes to List of Illinois Breweries
Thanks for all of your work on the List of Illinois Breweries page. I recently added three that were deleted or moved and I wanted to have a philosophical discussion about how we're defining a "brewery". The three breweries in question were Forbidden Root (currently brewing and serving their beer at various locations, but without a storefront of their own), Imperial Oak Brewing (opened for business this past weekend in Willow Springs), and Transient Artisan Ales (a "gypsy brewer" for now).

For Forbidden Root and others that may not have a storefront or taproom open yet they are serving and/or distributing beer, when do they warrant an entry? I guess this opens up a broader question that I've been thinking about: Shouldn't the page have a fourth column for those brewers that are in production and distributing/serving but may not be bottling/canning nor have a physical storefront/taproom/brewpub? I think Imperial Oak should be added back to the list, as they soft-opened this weekend, with a grand opening planned for 5/31. Check out my Instagram account (@tnawara) if you want to see a picture of their taproom from this weekend. And I guess Transient can be in a special category, but couldn't they just as easily fit into the same category as my first point? Chris is one of the hottest brewers in Chicago these days, with rave reviews at many festivals and pairing dinners at several restaurants - I'm not sure it matters that he happens to brew on other's equipment. Mikkeller?

Once again, thanks for your attention to this page. I know the Midwest brewing scene pretty well, but I'm a relative newbie at Wikipedia editing, so go easy on me.

Tnawara (talk) 05:58, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the note, and also thanks for the information. Although the article is "List of breweries in Illinois", I think that currently active commercial brewers that do not have their own brewery should still be listed in the article, so I've put Transient and Forbidden Root into the "Other beer companies" section of the article.  And since Imperial Oak is actually open for business now, I put them back in the main "Breweries" list.  I'd be glad to discuss this further here, but it would actually be better to take this discussion over to the talk page of the article.  That way it's a lot more likely that other interested editors would see the conversation, and comment with their own opinions.  I would therefore request that you read Talk:List of breweries in Illinois and Talk:List of breweries in Illinois, where I've made several posts about all this, and comment there, if you want to.  But if you have any general questions about editing Wikipedia, just post them here on my talk page, and I'll answer them if I can.  Thanks again. — Mudwater (Talk) 23:27, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

A long and winding road... for a foreigner ;-)
Thanks a lot for your kind explanation following my what request in ABB at Fillmore East album. So I realise know is a noun here, directly linked to roads, and the possessive case would have helped me ... should I be neither too exacting nor too old-fashioned ;-) --Bibliorock (talk) 03:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. These things can be confusing even to a native speaker.  It reminds me of the newspaper story headlines that I sometimes see, where a word can be understood as either a verb or a noun.  For example, "Campaign Contribution Limits Face Test".  That means that limits to campaign contributions are facing a test, but it can also be interpreted to mean that a campaign contribution caused the test of a face to be limited.  . — Mudwater (Talk) 11:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Soliciting comment...
Hi! Would you care to review my FA nomination for the article Of Human Feelings? The article is about a jazz album by Ornette Coleman. If not, feel free to ignore this message. Cheers! Dan56 (talk) 03:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the note. That article looks great.  If I get a chance, I'll read through it, and see if I can make any modest improvements or copy edits.  But I'm afraid I won't have time to do a full-blown FA review.  I appreciate the invitation though. — Mudwater (Talk) 11:55, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Dave's Picks 11
Hi, thanks for adding Dave's Picks 11. Just curious-- how did you get the info on it already? Numkinface (talk) 19:10, 21 July 2014 (UTC)Numkinface


 * Three days ago, people who bought a subscription to the 2014 Dave's Picks albums got an email from dead.net reminding them to send their updated mailing address if they had moved. The email casually mentioned the date and venue of the Volume 11 concert.  I noticed this on a few discussion forums, when googling "Dave's Picks Volume 11".  Examples are here and here.  Usually dead.net makes a more formal announcement, and that gets picked up and reported by some reliable third-party sites that can be used as references for the album article.  I'm not sure why they haven't done that yet.  "P.S." As you can see I moved your post, here on my user talk page -- it's customary to add new sections at the bottom of a talk page for a user or article.  See WP:TALKNEW. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:46, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Ed Thrasher
Hello. Did you create the Ed Thrasher page? Thanks - I'm his son. -Jeff. Hollywood on bicycle (talk) 19:20, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Greetings, and welcome to Wikipedia. You can see who created the Ed Thrasher article by going to that page, and then clicking on the View History tab, near the upper right.  That will show you the complete edit history for the article, including the first edit, which is the creation of the article.  And for a good overview of things like that, and how to edit articles, see the Tutorial.  Also, if you have more questions, feel free to post them here in this section of my user talk page. — Mudwater (Talk) 00:24, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Request to provide law and order in Wikipedia
Hello. I used your advice (move the info from "Gun laws" into "Gun politics"). I ask you to make roll back vs vandals here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gun_politics_in_the_United_States&action=history This text must be saved: "Second Amendment is the main trump and subject for misuse from the side of the National Rifle Association. Lobbing and corruption, which have relation to this organization, often are the reason of mass murders with help of firearms in the US (simple citizens are victims). Gun control in the United States almost does not exist by the fault of the NRA. For gradual stopping of mass murders can be organized special investigation to identify corrupt members of the US Congress and take relevant action vs them. Besides that, Barak Obama seeks support and attention of the US population, to decide the problem via different methods. He promises not to cancel the Second Amendment and explains, that restrictions are very needed on the federal and regional level - in relation of other relevant laws.[115] [116] [117] [118] [119]" Thank you. - 95.29.132.136 (talk) 23:04, 5 August 2014 (UTC).


 * Hi. Thanks for the note.  What I said was that "if properly presented as opinions they *might* have a place" in the Gun politics in the United States  article.  To present those points as opinions you would need to attribute them -- for example, "According to Rolling Stone writer Tim Dickinson, 'the NRA has morphed into a front group for the firearms industry, whose profits are increasingly dependent on the sale of military-bred weapons...'", etc.  And also this would probably fit better in the "Public policy arguments" section, which presents a number of pro-gun-control arguments.  Another point to mention is that repeatedly putting the same edit back into the article will sometimes be seen as edit warring, so it's probably best to avoid that.  But my number one suggestion to you is to start a new section at Talk:Gun politics in the United States, and try to persuade other editors about how and why the article should be updated.  I think you'll find that most editors want to maintain an even balance of perspectives, especially in articles, like these, about highly controversial topics.  One more point: You should probably consider creating an account and editing while signed in.  It's very easy to do, and your identity is well protected.  There are some editors who will be more willing to listen to what you have to day if you do this.  In summary, I think your best bet is to discuss these edits on the talk page of the article, in a calm and rational manner.  — Mudwater (Talk) 00:10, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for adding those summary tables on the Gun laws in the United States by state article. I completely forgot to do that. Appreciate the help. -SantiLak (Talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:07, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Grateful Dead May 1977.jpg
 Thanks for uploading File:Grateful Dead May 1977.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 17:01, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Johnny Winter discography
I am considering creating a separate Johnny Winter discography, along the lines of the Muddy Waters discography. Since you are active at JW, any thoughts? —Ojorojo (talk) 14:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable to me. Johnny Winter has a pretty fair number of albums, so I think a separate discography article is justified.  On the other hand the number of albums is not huge, so I think it's not essential to split off the discography.  I guess it's fair to say that I don't have a strong opinion either way.  But if you do create a separate discography article, I'd say first take a look at WikiProject Discographies/style, if you haven't already.  That's just a guide but they have some good suggestions I think.  More or less following the sample formats is probably a good idea, although personally I'm less interested in chart positions and sales than whoever put those together. — Mudwater (Talk) 15:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree about the sales info – with all the chart columns shown in WPDISCOG, the other info is squeezed into the margins. It is tedious and visually unappealing; I've never seen a published discography with that layout.  An earlier version I added I thought was more appropriate, but part of it was changed to a wikitable.  If it is to remain in the table format, that should be applied to all the subsections, which would necessitate a separate page.  Or maybe just revert to the earlier layout with updates? (the table editor doesn't seem active anymore). —Ojorojo (talk) 16:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * If there's a separate article for the discography, I'd favor using wikitables. I'm thinking they should be similar to the ones in the discography style guide, but with few, or possibly even no, columns for chart position, sales, and certifications.  If the discography is left as part of the article, I think either wikitables or bulleted lists are fine.  — Mudwater (Talk) 16:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums
I won't get into an argument whether I should have hidden the conversation, but you should not have deleted my ancillary post. Please amend your edit. Thanks (NB I would revert you, but I am happy if you re-instate my post). --Richhoncho (talk) 15:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Sorry about that. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. — Mudwater (Talk) 16:19, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * No problem. It can stay as it is restored. --Richhoncho (talk) 16:58, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on edit war
Hi. I noticed that you are an editor of WikiProject Albums/Album article style guide and I would greatly appreciate if you could give your opinion on the matter of track listing formatting in the edit war that User:Radiopathy started at Talk:Shades of Deep Purple. Lewismaster (talk) 14:15, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Track list numbering
Thank you for your comments at Talk:Shades of Deep Purple. A Rfc is currently open at Template talk:Track listing to finally settle the dispute. It would be greatly appreciated if you could give your opinion on the matter one last time. Lewismaster (talk) 19:27, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

October 2014
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Halloween cheer!


Happy Halloween!

Hello Mudwater: Thanks for all of your contributions to improve Wikipedia, and have a happy and enjoyable Halloween!   –  NorthAmerica1000 02:10, 28 October 2014 (UTC) Send Halloween cheer by adding {{subst:Happy Halloween}} to user talk pages with a friendly message.


 * Thanks, you too. — Mudwater (Talk) 02:14, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Layla credits
Hi Mudwater. I've seen you over at Del and the Dominos, and I just wondered whether you might have access to an original copy of Layla (or at least the '70s-era LP)? I've started a discussion about the album article's Personnel list, and I'm interested in finding out whether Duane Allman's name was clearly listed with the four official Dominos (as is the case on the CD I bought in about 2006) or separated into a "special guest" credit of some sort. Feel free to join the discussion anyway, of course. Cheers, JG66 (talk) 11:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Hello. Thanks for the note.  I don't have Layla on LP, unfortunately -- just the 20th anniversary CD.  On my copy there's not a listing of the band as such, instead there are musician credits for each song, with Duane Allman, when present, listed second (i.e. Clapton, Allman, Whitlock, Radle, Gordon).  I know someone who most likely does have a vinyl copy and I've sent him an email asking him about this.  He'll probably reply within a few days, and if and when he does I'll let you know.  In the meantime I might join the discussion anyway. — Mudwater (Talk) 12:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Fabulous – thank you. So Allman appears second … oh dear, that partly shoots down my argument at the article talk page, about how odd the order of band members is currently! Cheers, JG66 (talk) 12:25, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. So far I'm thinking that it would be best to list Allman second, based on the CD liner notes, as I think you're implying.  — Mudwater (Talk) 12:35, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, yes and no … I still struggle with that order (just as much as I do with Whitlock appearing fifth, as given in the article currently) because I know the LP I used to have, from the late '80s or early '90s, listed Allman last – perhaps as if he was a member, perhaps as a "special guest", I can't be sure which. And then there's this 2006 CD I've got now, which lists Allman fifth (twice – on the back, and in the CD booklet).
 * Added to that, after looking at so many sources for the band article (AllMusic; Uncut; A.V. Club; Mojo and Blender articles available through Rock's Backpages; Whitlock and Clapton's autobiographies; bios by Harry Shapiro and Jan Reid) – at no stage have I got the impression that Allman actually joined the band or was ever going to. He obviously developed a fast friendship with EC, but everything Duane did that was Domino-oriented was in his downtime from the Allmans. As a for-instance of sorts, musicians such as Nicky Hopkins and Billy Preston came to dominate recordings they made with the Stones, but they'd never be elevated to sit, say, above Bill Wyman and Charlie Watts. So, because I've been working on the Dominos band article, and I'm thinking about consistency from one article to the next, I can't get my head around Allman appearing second when (apparently) he wasn't a member of the band …
 * But hey, please do bring that point to the discussion, about the order you're seeing on your CD. If you get a reply re the original LP, then that'll be great too.
 * So sorry to go on here – all the above belongs on that talk page also, not cluttering up yours! JG66 (talk) 13:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm definitely open to the argument that Allman was not an official band member, and so should be listed last, or even separately. As far as the current order, I'd say don't worry about that.  Someone decided to put the musicians in alphabetical order, but that's not the best approach for this album, and that was before the Album Article Style Guide said anything about musician order, I'm pretty sure. — Mudwater (Talk) 13:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks – wise words! JG66 (talk) 13:40, 5 November 2014 (UTC)