User talk:Murella/Archive 1

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Speedy deletion nomination of Marie Warder
A tag has been placed on Marie Warder requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies. You may also wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag - if no such tag exists then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hangon tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 15:48, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I hope that my previous talk page in which I explained why I don't think that the article should be deleted, has not been discarded. I went into the reasons in some depthm and unfortunately typed "hang on" in the edit summary.

Murella (talk) 16:23, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Marie Warder


The article Marie Warder has been proposed for deletion because under Wikipedia policy, all biographies of living persons created after March 18, 2010, must have at least one source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't take offense. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners or ask at Help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the prod blp tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within ten days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one.

If I can find the "Upload image" to add the picture of THE BRONZE KILLER' which is in the COMMONS, I'll have the best refernce of all. The photo of TOM WARDER is also avilable in COMMONS I would like to upoad that as well.

A few more references: “As more and more physicians and researchers ‘do the talking these days, and invite me to participate out of courtesy or kindness’, Canada’s Iron Lady must surely feel vindicated.” (Charles Magill - Reader's Digest) “Once called crackpot—now called saint…” reads the headline of an article in the “Victoria Times Colonist”—but, Magill goes on to write, “She says she can’t help wishing that Haemochromatosis had been taken seriously long ago. She cannot help ‘mourning the ones who have suffered and died unnecessarily’ in the meantime!”

http://www.toomuchiron.ca

THE BOOK THAT GAVE A DISEASE A NEW NAME, evolved from 'Iron...the other side of the story!' (1984) which was the first book ever to be written on the subject of Hemochromatosis—iron overload. Please note alternative spelling, outside of North America, where the disorder is known as 'Haemochromatosis'.

http://www.nancysteinbeck.com/links.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Boyko

http://www.haemochromatosisza.org/

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&q=MARIE+WARDER&start=50&sa=N&fp=cd2fadebaa806004

I also happen to think that it's pretty cool for an 11-year-old kid to be able to sell an article to a newspaper. Murella (talk) 19:54, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

It is my intention, (if the article is not deleled) to add to the text a definition of Hemochromatos nad its treatment and also of Marie Warer's invitation to meet with the World Health Organization in Israel in 1993 - where she became a member of the first "unofficial" advisory board to the WHO on the "Prevention and Treatment of Hemochromatosis"

I am posting the following and will then stop, as I am concerned that, in my eagerness to convince you, I may actully be putting you off. After this I would like to take you up on the suggestion (offer?) to have better qualified people complete the task.

Re:The IAHS, brochures, etc. which require "citation" MARIE WARDER - A NAME SYNONYMOUS WITH HEMOCHROMATOSIS                                 Contributed by Elaine Murray Hemochromatosis. — There was a time when nine out of ten people had never heard of it and physicians considered it to be "too rare to be of concern”. It is now known to be the most common genetic disorder of all, and Marie Warder has played no small part in, as she puts it, "bringing the research that was mouldering on the shelves or in the filing cabinets, into the light of day." She found out first-hand what a devastating disease it could be when her husband became sick. For six years, she watched as his eyesight deteriorated, his personality changed and he grew sicker. Finally, a doctor diagnosed the problem: an overload of iron in his body. Luckily, it was caught in time and he was bled a gallon of blood per month to save his life. In The Bronze Killer, Warder provides much needed information about this common enemy, from recognizing its symptoms to stressing the importance of early detection and treatment. Recommended by physicians in many hospitals and clinics around the world, this book also includes a layman’s reference on the disease, Iron…The Other Side of the Story!

From the Back Cover Ø WHO SHOULD BE TESTED? — Anyone who suffers from: Ø DIABETES (sudden-, late-, maturity- onset) Ø CHRONIC FATIGUE Ø "BRONZING" OF THE SKIN Ø ARTHRITIS (PARTICULARLY OF THE THUMB JOINT AND THE KNUCKLES OF THE FIRST TWO FINGERS) Ø ARRHYTHMIA (IRREGULAR HEARTBEAT) Ø CIRRHOSIS OR CANCER OF THE LIVER, ENLARGED LIVER AND OTHER LIVER DISEASES OF UNDETERMINED CAUSE Ø CARDIOMYOPATHY (DISEASE OF THE HEART MUSCLE – FATIGUE AND SHORTNESS OF BREATH) Ø IN MEN, TESTICULAR ATROPHY, LOSS OF BODY HAIR, IMPOTENCE OR DIMINISHED INTEREST IN SEX Ø PREMATURE MENOPAUSE, AMENORRHEA (ABSENCE OF MENSTRUAL FLOW) OR OTHER MENSTRUAL IRREGULARITIES IN WOMEN Ø Also frequently misdiagnosed as chronic hepatitis, gall bladder and thyroid problems, gout, rheumatoid arthritis, polycythemia and iron deficiency. As some sufferers exhibit pronounced mood swings and other personality changes such as severe depression, anger, confusion or diminished memory, they can be incorrectly treated for mental illness. In some cases Alzheimer’s has been suspected. ONLY THE CORRECT TESTS WILL PROVIDE THE KEY!

Former Director-General of Genetic Services in South Africa "We are highly impressed by the evidence you have collected and summarised..."

HHC patient Quoted in the Canadian Reader's Digest,"She deserves the Order of Canada" Nancy Steinbeck (widow of John Steinbeck, daughter-in law of the famous writer and author of "Thanks to them, this disease will never mutely effect and confound patients and their families as it has in the past."

"If more people know about it, more people will live!" – Marie Warder in Maclean’s, October 6, 1986

THE BRONZE KILLER – THE BOOK THAT GAVE A DISEASE A NEW NAME. A valuable resource still in demand after nearly ten years. Recommended by physicians and hospitals in Canada and elsewhere. Earned high praise for its author in her 1992 citation for the prestigious Canada Volunteer Medal of Honour and Certificate of Honour. NOW WITH FOOTNOTES AND EDITOR’S POSTSCRIPT. About the Author Marie Warder, who, before writing her books on hemochromatosis, was already the author of fourteen published novels, is the founder and President Emeritus of both the Canadian Hemochromatosis Society and the Hemochromatosis Society of South Africa. She is also the founder of the International Association of Hemochromatosis Society of which she was, for many years, the President. As such, she has assisted in the establishment of affiliated societies in several countries.

Excerpt from The Bronze Killer: New Edition - The Story of a Family's Fight Against a Very Common Enemy - Hemochromatosis: The Story of a Family's Fight Against a Very Common Enemy - Hemochromatosis by Marie Warder. Copyright © 1989. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.

CHAPTER ONE When I say that I have had four husbands while remaining married to, faithful to and in love with the first — the true darling of my heart and the sweetheart of my youth — I do not mean to give the impression that I have indulged in polygamy. The explanation is, in fact, relatively simple; my husband was all of these men. Through no fault of his own, Tom’s personality underwent so many changes over a period of ten years, that at times I had to cling almost desperately to the memory of the man I had loved and who had shared my life for twenty-five years before this happened to him. In order to tolerate the second personality, I had to keep before me constantly the mental picture of the first. Tom, at nearly nineteen, was extraordinarily handsome, possessed of extraordinary physical strength and blessed with an extraordinarily beautiful body. He was a young man to make any girl’s heart beat faster but, apart from these outward and visible attractions, he was just thoroughly nice. Kind, gentle, patient and considerate; the perfect young man, outrageously good-looking in his Air Force uniform and I, at the age of sixteen, going on seventeen, fell head-over-heels in love at first sight. None of what I have described — or ascribed to him — is irrelevant in the story; nor is it attributable to the sentimentality of a loving heart who saw him through rose-coloured spectacles. Everyone who knew him, loved him; he was the ‘catch’ of our town and hours of swimming, or sailing his little yacht, had contributed to a magnificent tan which only enhanced the charm of flashing white teeth when he smiled.

Murella (talk) 17:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC) '''FOR THE BENEFIT OF ANY OF THE WIKIPEDIA EXPERTS WHO MAY CONSIDER TAKING OVER AND CONSTRUCTING AN ACCEPTABLE ARTICLE -I HAVE JUST FOUND THIS! ''' What an incredible memory this woman has!

'''August 18, 1969. My life would never be the same again! --The menace that would take over my life...''' Although I was of course not aware of it at the time, Hemochromatosis (caused by IRON — this evil with its grinning mask of virtue — which had already surreptitiously crept into my family at birth) reared its ugly head for the first time, on a South African Airways Boeing 40 years ago, between Rio de Janeiro and New York, and then deviously hid itself for seven years … taunting and torturing us until it finally revealed its true self - with a vengeance!

I remember the occasion clearly, because it was on this day, in this month, of that year, that I handed to my husband, Tom Warder, a magazine containing an account of the gruesome murder of Sharon Tate (winner of a Golden Globe Award for her performance in The Valley of the Dolls) by the followers of Charles Manson, and he, Tom - whom I would later recall had not been quite "himself" for some time - had to admit that he was having difficulty reading it.

Impaired eyesight

In The Bronze Killer I have written in detail of how, in the August of the year in which his sister was married, and just before he, himself, turned fifteen, we took our son, Shaun, to the United States, where he and I had an opportunity for sight-seeing while Tom, who had to complete a course of instruction related to the new aircraft which the airline had purchased, attended lectures. The only bad memory of that happy time is how he, Tom, kept complaining about his eyesight.

During the long flight to New York there had been no pleasure for him in glancing through newspapers or magazines to pass the time, because the print was blurred. Our son good-naturedly teased him with veiled references to “advancing years” and “the march of time” but soon it wasn’t funny any more because Tom was finding it difficult to discern what was written on the blackboard, and often didn’t recognize his lecturers outside of the classroom. It was decided that he would have his eyes tested as soon as we arrived home. When he could hardly see familiar people wave to him as they danced by at a wedding for which we played soon after our return, we knew he’d have to see about getting eye glasses.

It was not long after this that he began to exhibit all the classic signs of diabetes: loss of weight; excessive thirst; exhaustion. Strangely, however, it took the doctors a long time to find out what was wrong with him, and I wonder what would have happened if I hadn’t read an article in the Reader’s Digest and demanded that he be given a blood glucose test. This spelled the beginning of a major upheaval in our lives. Nothing would ever be the same again but, fortunately, we didn’t realize this at the time.I don't know what we would have have become of my husband if -- by the time he had was considered to have a life-expectancy of only twelve weeks -- an old friend, Dr. Paul Porteous, had not fortuitously come back into our lives ... just in time to lead us to a world expert on HH, Professor Thomas Bothwell. Later he and Professor Clement Finch of Seattle would become my mentors.

Looking back over these past 40 years

What happened to him after that has, as I have already said, been well documented. The years that followed were difficult and extremely painful, and, while I tell myself that only the many good things of the past matter, and I had actually planned to let go of Hemochromatosis for good — for the umpteenth time -- at the end of this month -- I find that I still cannot. Not while so many families are still at risk.

Please remember... Although Hemochromatosis is the the most common genetic disorder of all, it is also the only one that is treatable, and all the dreadful complications are avoidable through timely diagnosis and treatment.

Murella (talk) 21:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Status and advice
The present article is apparently copied intact from some previously published source. This is not permissible, and you must write the contents from scratch using previously published material as sources,  citing them in the article. Additionally, we are an encyclopedia, not a press release--the purpose is to inform, not sell the books,so we do not include vague praises and her personal recollections of what influenced her as a child. For the moment, I've reduced the article to one sentence. What is needed most is   references to reviews of her book in published sources.  DGG ( talk ) 05:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

As I do when I post updates on her website, I write a draft first, and then copy and paste. There are numerous reviews on Amazon - all "rave reviews" for both her hardcopy books and her e-Books. I am currently re arranging the order of the paragraphs. I also did the Wikipedia story about her husband TOM WARDER, but under a different pseudonym.

Murella (talk)

Having discussed details of our correspondence with her, Marie Warder has requested that I have the article deleted in order to put an end to all this wrangling. After a power failure cut off my corections last night, before I was able to save them, I am also ready to quit! Murella (talk) 15:20, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Re: The Bronze Killer and the reference to it's being the "definitive book: on the sujectof Hemochromatosis, I - as one of the editors - add my own point of view, just for your personal info:

Some years ago, a prominent South African researcher wrote about a book with the strange title of “The Bronze Killer” -— in which the writer, Marie Warder, described her husband’s horrific battle with a disease far too long considered rare -— that it was ‘the story of a remarkable man and an extraordinary relationship’. … To me it is more than just about a disease!

On the Internet I saw this book recently described as the 'definitive book about Haemochromatosis', and I agree. The reviewer was right -— but, to me, it is more than a layman's reference to a genetic disorder. It is a consummate love story. Love at first sight...the enduring adoration of a teenager for a young man -— adoration which would lead her, in time, along a thorny path and, against all odds, to a fight against ignorance of a disease. That fight has culminated in the saving of hundreds of thousands of lives around the world.

My thoughts go to a newspaper headline quoted by Charles Magill in his story about Marie Warder, in the ‘Reader’s Digest’, where he wrote “As more and more physicians and researchers ‘do the talking these days', and invite Marie to participate out of courtesy or kindness’, Canada’s Iron Lady must surely feel vindicated.”

“Once called crackpot -— now called saint…” reads the headline of an article in the “Victoria Times Colonist” -— but, Magill goes on to write, “She says she can’t help wishing that Haemochromatosis had been taken seriously long ago. She cannot help ‘mourning the ones who have suffered and died unnecessarily’ in the meantime!”

Charles Magill concludes his article by quoting Dr. Malcolm Brigden: “Marie has built an international organization, and tirelessly disseminated information about the disease,” he says. “To me, she’s an authentic Canadian hero.”

Former filmmaker, Eugene Boyko, went further. “The doctor I was going to was in a total quandary until Marie alerted us to the disease. Because of her and the treatment I have had, I have gained an extra ten or twenty years.”

And Magill, himself observes: “Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Haemochromatosis victims who have been diagnosed or helped, thanks to Marie Warder’s tireless crusade would say ‘amen’ to that.”

“ Not because of me,” she protests, shaking her head. “With God’s help, because of Tom!” Elaine Murray

Murella (talk) 17:28, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Please don't "quit" as Ms Warder very likely does meet the notability criteria for Wikipedia. But you must familiarize yourself with the Wikipedia guidelines for how articles are to be written.  Please review "Your first article" and "The five pillars".  Also, since you are writing about a living person, please review the guidelines regarding biographies of living persons. When searching for references for the article, please restrict yourself to reliable sources; comments made in blogs and forums do not count as reliable sources. Finally, please do not comment on the article content within the article itself -- that's what the article discussion page is for.  I have cleaned up your article, and added a second reference.  I have also removed some claims that likely could never be verified (youngest chief reporter ever).  This article has potential -- if you leave it in place, other editors like myself may well improve it.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:35, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

How can I provide reliable sources without scanning - for instance 1) - the reference to "The Journalist", in which she is referred to as "the youngest chief reporter in the world?" Don't forget there was a war on at that time, and as the male reporters went off to the battlefield, one after another, promotion was rapid. 2)The articles accepted when she was 17 - and a year later when she was 18? The most remarkable thing was that a South African teenaager should be published in the then very prestigious British magazine, "Everybody's" to which people like Evelyn Waugh contributed? There is indeed a a reference in BC BookWorld which I shall send you in due course.


 * References don't have to be available online. You can reference The Journalist merely by providing enough information that an interested third party could find the book and verify the claim -- the template cite book would work (The Journalist is a book, right?).  This template will allow you to provide the author's name, the book title, the book's publisher and publication date, and, if available, an ISBN number and a link to a website about the book.  The ISBN and link are not necessary, but the other information would be the minimum required for someone to look up the book.  However, even if the book claims that she was the youngest chief reporter ever, this is a broad claim that would be difficult to prove; the best you could say is that "Warder has been called the youngest chief reporter ever".  Proof that her articles were published at an early age would merely require a citation to the published articles (please see the documentation for the cite news template).   WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I can copy and paste some of the reviews referring to "The Bronze Killer", on its Amazon page, perhaps get the wording of the citation that came with her Medal of Honor, and provide you with recent articles, eg.from the online magazine for which she writes on a regular basis, and, if you go to Mobipocket.com (try searching her by her name or perhaps "The Bronze Killer")there is an e-Book containing nine essays on Hemochromatosis published last year.


 * You don't need to copy and paste anything, and you really shouldn't as this would be a copyright violation. You can merely cite the reviews using the standard citation mechanisms.  (cite web would work nicely for such a citation.)  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Numerous other references are to be found on Google, and at the bottom of the Bronze Killer page of the website www.dromedarisbooks.com there is actually a video in which she speaks for the first time on television about her intention to form The Canadian Hemochromatosis Society. I promise you that everything I have written about her is verifiable.

More later. Murella (talk) 14:20, 22 May 2010 (UTC) http://blogcritics.org/writers/marie-warder/ http://www.dromedarisbooks.com/14783.html http://www.abcbookworld.com/view_author.php?id=4441 (It is now known that 3,000,000 Canadians are affected.)
 * These sources are all blogs, and as such are not likely to be reliable. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Murella (talk) 14:46, 22 May 2010 (UTC) http://www.amazon.com/Bronze-Killer-New-Marie-Warder/product-reviews/0968735800/ref=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 An excellent article by Charles Magill, roving editor of the Canadian Reader’s Digest, provides possibly the most complete and concise overview of the 'years between.' “ South African Reader’s Digest, June 1997. La tueuse au masque du bronze,” Selection (Quebec), November 1995.
 * “The Bronze Killer”—Canadian Reader’s Digest, October 1995;

Re:The IAHS, brochures, etc. which require "citation" In the fall of 1990, it was reported in the society’s newsletter: Among Ourselves”: “The CHS is proud to be able to report that most provinces—and several CHS affiliated countries—now observe the Awareness week, and all Canadian Ministries of Health have become interested in HH. In 1990, to coincide with AWARENESS90, the Government of British Columbia assisted the society in the production of a special brochure— based upon text provided by Marie Warder —which was mailed by the B.C. Ministry of Health to every physician in the province. The CHS was made a gift of the unused copies—three thousand of which were distributed by the College of Pharmacists of British Columbia to registered pharmacists and that year’s graduates. In addition, both the Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences and the Faculty of Food Sciences arranged lectures on iron overload at the University of British Columbia.

“Acting on briefs presented by the CHS, the College of Pharmacists sent a letter to the Bureau of Non-Prescription Drugs of the Federal Health Protection Branch last year, calling for ‘additional labelling on iron-containing products’ and this has been supported by the British Columbia Ministry of Health. As a result misleading labelling such as ‘contains reduced iron’* on food packaging is no longer permitted†, and the possibility of mandatory warning labels on non-prescription products containing iron is currently under review.

“Another milestone was reached when, after twelve years of lobbying by the founder of the CHS, the Red Cross protocol regarding blood donation for transfusion was amended, allowing for the use of blood obtained by venesection from patients who meet the required criteria and who can produce a letter from their physicians attesting to this fact.” In 1991, referring to the “strategy adopted by the British Columbia Ministry of Health to provide information about hemochromatosis to physicians and pharmacists practising in that province”, Quebec’s Minister of Health informed the CHS that the Communications Branch of Quebec was revising and would ratify the French-language translation submitted by the President of Hemochromatosis Society. This text,dapted to meet the specific needs of Quebec’s French-speaking population, would be placed at the society’s disposal for the benefit of interested Francophones in other provinces. It was good news indeed to learn that another province was to become actively involved; to be assured, as the Hon. Marc-Yvan Côte of Quebec describes it, “of the intention to collaborate in the efforts to prevent hemochromatosis throughout Canada.”

Murella (talk) 01:05, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

In 1992, when the province of New Brunswick issued a proclamation for the Šrst time—because the society could now comply with the stipulation that all literature should be available in both official languages—the CHS had reason indeed to be grateful for the French translation provided by Quebec. “The society will continue to work towards the day,” Marie wrote, “when every province, supported by Health and Welfare Canada, has a program in place to educate physicians and inform the public; thus saving, not only millions of dollars which needs to be spent on the ongoing treatment of the complications of HH—the end result of a perfectly preventable condition—but also the needless suffering of those who suffer and die as a result of the abysmal ignorance surrounding hereditary hemochromatosis. Perhaps when tests for iron overload become a routine procedure and family physicians are better informed—so that all family members and individuals in high-risk groups (among them those suffering from diabetes, liver problems, sexual dysfunction and arthritis) are screened—there may be no need for the Canadian Hemochromatosis Society to continue its operations.”

In another newsletter: “The society has been mentioned in several o‹cial reports, has participated in a number of health care surveys and has provided assistance to members of the International Association of Haemochromatosis Societies. Most gratifying acknowledgements have come from many sources, among them one from the doctors involved in the screening program undertaken at the Health Sciences Centre, St. John’s, Newfoundland, and published in Vol.2 No.4 (Nov. 1988) of Clinical Gastroenterology under the heading of: ‘Should children of patients with hemochromatosis be screened for the disease?’”*

In a letter to the founder of the CHS, Professor Clement Finch of Seattle—a world-renowned authority on iron-overload, and another of Marie’s heroes—writes: “Your society is doing a remarkable job in educating people and physicians about a disease I have been interested in for many years‰ Our ultimate goal should be the institution of Transferrin Saturation and Ferritin Tests in routine screening proŠles. Since the genetic disorder gives no clue as to its presence for many years, the only way we can diagnose the disorder (unless a member of the family has already been diagnosed) before damage is done, is to include these tests in the standard blood profile done on all individuals having blood tests.* “Perhaps your efforts will ultimately lead to this.”

i-xvi 1-160 120351.qxd 5/22/00 11:17 AM Page 97
 * (MacIntosh, Bear, Simpson, Komusi and Barrowman).

Again, in an editorial in the September 1990 issue of the Western Journal of Medicine, Finch, then Professor of Medicine Emeritus of the University of Washington, says: “A strong case can be made for incorporating measurements of the plasma iron, iron-binding capacity and ferritin into the routine blood screen‰ Without such a survey, there is little hope of recognizing Hemochromatosis at a time when treatment has the greatest promise.” What must have been the most exciting to Marie, however, was that, in the same editorial, Professor Finch notes: “Lay societies have been formedItalic text whose mission is to disseminate information about the “BRONZE KILLER”. . . Their information program is so effective that the people they reach are sometimes far better informed than their physicians.” From a man she held in such high esteem, this was praise indeed. Murella (talk) 16:46, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I have responded to a few of your comments above. These last few paragraphs you have written seem to be an argument for the notability of the CHS, but not for Ms Warder herself.  I'd say that you should probably write a separate article on the CHS, but I suspect that you have a close connection with that organization, and writing about it would represent a serious conflict of interest.  Perhaps you can request an article at WP:RA, and hope an independent editor takes up the cause.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. To know about Marie Warder is to know about all the Hemochromatosies Societies she has helped to establish. She IS the CHS!

After further consideration, we have decided that we would like have the article deleted. Marie’s crusade has never been for her own aggrandizement. Surely no one, not even one of the Wikipedia editors, would choose to have his or her life taken so completely by what has come to be, to her, a sacred responsibility. Even today, when after strokes, heart attacks – you name it! – she carries on. She will declare that she is letting go of Hemochromatosis – but it will not let go of her. The phone still rings and the tail still wags the dog. Even today, after all these years, she still has physicians and lecturers – and patients - call for advice, because Hemochromatosis has become her life. May is Hemochromatosis Awareness month in Canada, which, to her at the moment, means posters, press releases and so on.

From the moment Tom Warder walked in her office, he became her life. Hemochromatosis took him from her, and then, like a cuckoo in the nest, took over that life. When their daughter was diagnosed, she realized that she knew things about the deadly disease that she had to share. She had proof that much of what was then known about HHC was incorrect. She had proof of its being hereditary, that young people could develop it, that women were also at risk, and she knew that it was not rare. To make this known became an awful responsibility – especially when she and Tom were just beginning to adapt to life and having to earn a living in a new country.

While we understand that the editors need to be very careful, we both feel that it is almost an insult to have to furnish proof of her having written more than 300 articles. We are talking here about a period of 30 years! Every time new info came to hand, the leaflets had to be re-written, and each had to be suitable for use in the other countries which had become part of the IAHS, operating under that umbrella until they were self-sufficient. The stub that now appears under her name, is ridiculous and the "chat" link in it is based only on what was known in the USA, where, incidentally one of the biggest psychiatric institutions also used her brochures in the eighties. In the note I posted concerning what Professor Finch wrote on a medical journal and in which he used the name of Marie's book - The Bronze Killer - to refer to Hemochromatosis - the "well-informed" groups who knew more than their physicians, were those of the IAHS... The International Association of Hemochromatosis Societies.

Over the years it has evolved, and when she was invited to meet with the World Health Organization in 1993, she also attended the first international BIOIRON a conference. It has since been held in several countries, and next year takes place in Vancouver - where she is to be the "keynote" speaker, but her health may preclude her from doing that.

I know that I have possted far too much info, but I was trying to substantiate all that I had written preciouslty, and by the way, the "Journalist" was a sort of newspaper and the reference I have came from the "Ficksburg News" which very proudly quoted it in regard to a to the fact that Marie had been born there, and that the editor had known her as a child.

Murella (talk) 17:10, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Still fuming about the citation needed for the "more than 300 articles", I have copied this for the benefit of thos who doubt the statement.

1990 Main Navigation www.toomuchiron.ca

* Home * The Disorder * Support Resources * About CHS * Get Involved * Donate Now

HEMOCHROMATOSIS Canada's most common genetic disorder — 1 in 9 are carriers Make a Difference

Header Information Did You Know... With your help we can improve quality of life for thousands of Canadians

Page Content (Right Column) Other Hemochromatosis Organizations

See Other HHC Organizations for a listing of hemochromatosis-related organizations in other countries.

Page Content (Middle Column) History The Society

The Canadian Hemochromatosis society, which was started in Victoria by Marie Warder, now has its headquarters in Richmond, British Columbia. Here the society, which was founded in 1980 and incorporated in 1982, maintains a central register of all known victims and their families. The CHS has established a database and publishes a newsletter which goes out to doctors and patients as far afield as Hong Kong, South Africa, Israel and the United Kingdom. The society is happy to include in its questionnaires, specific questions to aid researchers; and it assists families, especially with respect to screening, the correct tests and where to seek treatment. The medical advisers of the CHS are available to both professional and lay members. Although so much has been published in medical literature, the society – which has representatives in most provinces of Canada, and members in sixteen countries – was obliged to research and produce the first patient literature on the subject available to the public in several countries.

The Canadian Hemochromatosis Society is a registered charity which receives no government funding. Until very recently it was operated entirely by volunteers and it still is obliged to rely heavily on donations for its continued existence. Hundreds of requests for information and teaching aids are received by the CHS each year; from universities, patients and doctors; from libraries and hospitals (including such prestigious establishments as the New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation), stretching the slender resources of the society to the limit and contributing to the heavy workload of a handful of willing and dedicated people.

Today the society receives govt. funding and has a CEO - but who do you think had to write all the literature for those Hundreds of requests for information and teaching aids which were sent by the CHS each year to those universities, patients and doctors; from libraries and hospitals (including such prestigious establishments as the New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation)'''? Murella (talk) 18:25, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I must say that I am very confused with your postings. On the one hand you claim that you want the article deleted, but on the other hand you continue to argue for reasons that it should be preserved.  Which way is it?  I believe that the article should probably stay, but Wikipedia has strict policies on the verifiability of information, especially in biographies of living persons.  If such requirements have you "fuming", then you may want to choose another venue in which to write about Ms Warder.  As the only author of any substantive content on the page, if you wish to have it deleted, simply edit the page and replace the entire contents with the text  .  This will cause an administrator to delete the page.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't blame you, but I was so upset when I saw Paul's comments on Venturian's article about Tom Warder that I began to look for info to provide the necessary citations. In the process I learned enough to be able to do the same with the Marie Warder article. Now I'm rearin' to go once more - if you can stand it!

Murella (talk) 19:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

File source problem with File:MWarder.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:MWarder.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created [ in your upload log]. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 23:21, 24 May 2010 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Eeekster (talk) 23:21, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

As I write the text for her website (see Author Page) and also perform other duties such as uploading new titles by Marie, to Amazon, I have been given permission to use this image as I see fit. It has become a sort of "trademark" for her - on Facebook, on the covers of her books and can even be found in Google images. I have been given permission to release it into Commons and I have done so.

The image of Tom Warder is already in Commons.

Murella (talk) 23:47, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Conflict of interest
You have that you are Marie Warder's publicist. This constitutes a serious conflict of interest regarding your connection with her article. Please review the relevant Wikipedia guidelines prior to making any further edits to that article. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Notes on references
Please refer to my comments on Talk:Marie Warder regarding why some of the references you have added are not acceptable. Also, please note that as Ms Warder's former publicist, the same conflict of interest exists. Your desire to promote her efforts is in direct conflict with Wikipedia's goal of producing neutral articles. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * In the forward to her book, Tarnished Idols, she records this: "It was I who had the good fortune to by taken to meet Field Marshall Jan Christiaan Smuts, and it is I who regard that as one of the highlights of my own journalistic career.

Murella (talk) 16:33, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I presume this is in reference to the citation needed note placed on Marie Warder regarding her having interview Jan Smuts. The provided quote is not a valid reference for that fact for two reasons:
 * it is a primary source (i.e. the subject writing about herself); Wikipedia relies on secondary sources;
 * it doesn't really verify the fact. Meeting a person is entirely different than interviewing a person.
 * WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:48, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

She goes on to describe the interview. I doubt if anyone - having imigrated more than 30 years ago, would have kept every single newspaper, and as is the case with many biographies, one often has to go through letters. Confidentially, she still corresponds with Pat Boone, who sent her a re-mastered DVD of the Cross and the Switchblade for Christmas, and he often refers, apologetically, to the reason why the interview she had with him in Duban, had to be cut short. If the entire article hinges on those two references, I would be prepared to delete them

Murella (talk) 17:02, 27 May 2010 (UTC) Murella (talk) 17:04, 27 May 2010 (UTC) I may not have explained very clearly that I am NO LONGER her publicist - in fact I don't even live in Canada any more, but she made an impression on me long ago, and I have always wanted to write a story about her.

Murella (talk) 17:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It is all well and good if she goes on to describe the interview, but this is still a primary source. If the interview was published, publication details should be provided.  A citation such as this example:
 * Warder, Marie (10 December 1965) "An Interview with Jan Smuts" The South Africa Sunday Times 152 (220) p. 25
 * listing the author's name, the date of publication, the title of the article, the title of the publication in which the article appeared, optionally a volume and issue number, and, ideally, a page number. The newspaper does not have to be available online, but sufficient information must be given so that a dedicated researcher could search the relevant archives to find the interview.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 17:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

More notes on references
Please learn the difference between a reference and a note. A reference provides verification of the fact that it references. A note provides an interesting addition to the text that is not necessary to the cohesion of the article, but is a nice little extra. In this edit, you replaced a "citation needed" notice with a "reference" that read as follows:

Can you tell me how this paragraph verifies the fact that Ms Warder interviewed Jan Smuts? This is a "personal reflection" (as clearly indicated by the phrase "former colleagues recall") and really has no place in Wikipedia. Also, the extraneous information about Smuts is completely unnecessary as there is already a complete article on him. Adding the information on Ms Warder's page seems to serve only one purpose -- to aggrandize her accomplishments. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC) To supply the date of issue would be impossble. Those newspapers no longer exist. Like many other buildings in Germiston, the very premises have been vandalised....No window panes - and in some places bricks are mising from the walls. Even the once prestigious Carnegie Library is nothing but a charred shell. As to aggrandizing her accomplishments, that would hardly be necessary! Murella (talk) 00:44, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately before I could continue earlier today, my Internet service quit on me, so, although I have not yet checked on what the article looks like now, I must post this because I did not have a chance to complete what I wanted to say about aggrandisement. Much of my info about Marie's life - long before I knew got to know her - has had to be drawn from what more knowlegeable people could tell me. Her are some of the anecdotes, starting with the time when she joined the St. John's ambulance... "In time we even got used to seeing her flit in and out of the office in the black stockings and the black stockings, grey uniform and white veil of the St. John’s Ambulance. At weekends, and on some evenings, she still put in her designated hours at Wilton Haze, the stately Parktown Mansion whose owners had generously turned it over to be used as a military hospital and convalescent centre for the duration. She used to tell us that all she did was make tea, cut sandwiches and fill water carafes, but, whatever it was that she did there, she seemed to enjoy the confidence of the men to whom she ministered, and found the opportunity to chat with wives and sweethearts. Some of them trusted her enough to allow her to write their stories—which, when she gave them to her editor to read, seemed to touch the W.H. sufficiently to permit their publication. Out of those stories grew two subsequent features, “Is Soldiering Worthwhile?” and “Are Soldiers Fickle?” I firmly believe that it that it was only because of the discipline she had long imposed on herself that she was able to deal with the mountains of correspondence which these columns generated; but however she did it, our circulation increased by leaps and bounds."

"She also went regularly to meet troop trains at President Station which was within walking distance of the Advocate office. That had started when her boss first sent her to her to Park Station to see what sort of stories she could get out of it. When she learned that the trains stopped longer at President, in Germiston, that’s where she went. She said she wanted to—to help hand out sandwiches or whatever, to the 'halt, the maimed and blind'"

"By the beginning of March the following year, she had already moved two rungs up the ladder. It speaks for itself that such enthusiasm and diligence would not remain un-rewarded, but I was quite ridiculously pleased when, in due course, because yet another senior staff member had “joined up", she was promoted to fill his place—so becoming the youngest chief reporter we had ever had on our staff."

Although this info is probably superfluous and won't do any good, I have to get it off my chest. I said some time ago that I did not care what happened to my story, and I have now reached the stage where that is once more the case. Even if it is deleted, I'll still know that I tried. Murella (talk) 06:00, 28 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Information from personal anectdotes is not valid material for a Wikipedia article. The material must come from verifiable, published, reliable sources.  I keep providing these links to Wikipedia policy; have you been reading them?  Do you understand that we are trying to build an encyclopedia here, not a blog site?  Your former relationship as Ms Warder's publicist, even if it was in the past, has left you wishing to promote her article, and has made it impossible for you to be neutral on the subject.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 10:44, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

You are right about many things but not about "wishing to promote her article." I am trying to promote HER. And I hope you noticed that I did not post the personal anecdotes for possible inclusion in the article; only to support some of what I had written and to protest the "aggrandizing" accusation.

I also meant it when I said that I was tired of the battle. A friend of mine has written to the National Council of Women in Johannesburg, but does not hold out any hope of a reply.

Murella (talk) 17:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps my word choice was poor. Your attempt to promote HER is the very problem.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:05, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I read you. That's why I am leaving it to others less sentimental to "polish" up. I am, however, taking on the responsibility for uploading four images, because, apart from the one of Tom Warder - which is already in Commons, I am the only person besides, Marie, herself, who has the right to so so.

Does this reference help in supporting the statement about the support of doctors. ...There was some disbelief when acting upon more recent research - and following the example of Professor Leslie Valberg, then Dean of Medicine at the University of Western Ontario - the age was lowered to twelve. A strong case for further lowering of the accepted screening age was made in the book "The Bronze Killer” published in 1988, when the diagnosis of three Vancouver children (two sisters and a brother), aged 3, 5 and 7, was given in support of the belief that HH could no longer be regarded as an adult disease. The 7 - year old had already sustained some liver damage and the children were on phlebotomy therapy. She worked very closely with Prof. Valberg. (The date of publication refers to the early edition of Ther Bronze Killer. Murella (talk) 23:05, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Re:the remark: "As much as I believe Ms Warder is notable and deserving of a Wikipedia article, if these are the best references that can be found, perhaps my belief is unfounded." WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:17, 25 May 2010 (UTC) To support one of my remarks, I uploaded (or tried to upload) images, including a photo of Marie wearing her medal (a snapshot taken by her husband a year before his death and therefore now, as she was his sole beneficiary, hers to do with as she pleases. I obtained her permission to to use it, so why has it been rejected? The other images are all in Creative Commons, so why were they also not considered acceptable?

Murella (talk) 15:24, 31 May 2010 (UTC) I see that the images of Marie Warder were rejected because of isufficient Licensing info. She GAVE me unrestricted permission and perhaps I just used the wrong wording in assigning them to Creative Commons. - Should I try again?

Why was I also not permitted to post the Bronze Killer and Tom Warder photos? They are most definitely in Commons. Murella (talk) 00:37, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:MWarder.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:MWarder.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have created in [ your upload log].

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. FinalRapture - † ☪ 01:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The photo is in the Public Domain and on the back covers of all her books, but, to make doubly sure, I obtained her permission to use it and to release it to CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL. Unfortunately I can't understan how to carry out the media copy instructions. I'm also battling with the problem of how to utiize the image of Tom Warder, which is in the article TOM WARDER, also in the public domain and Creative Commons.


 * I have permission to use a photo of Marie wearing her medal, which would allay the doubts about her award, expressed by some of the Wikipedia editors.

Murella (talk) 20:00, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Photos on book jackets are almost universally not in the public domain. If the photo has graced Ms. Warder's book jacket, the copyright is held either by the original photographer, who would have received a commission or royalty to allow the publication of the photo on the book jacket, or it is held by the publisher.  It is doubtful that Ms Warder owns the copyright to the image unless she published the book by herself.  The copyright can only be released by the owner by specifically making a disclaimer in connection with the publication of the photo that it is released to the public domain under licensing conditions acceptable to Wikipedia.  Alternatively, the publisher may follow the directions at WP:Donating copyrighted materials in order to allow free publication of the photo.  As a note -- a photograph of a person wearing a medal is hardly verification that the person received any particular award, as it is very unlikely that the engraving on the medal which indicates what award it represents will be legible in the photograph.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:19, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

She actually did self-publish all versions of The Bronze Killer, and acceded to the request by Dromedaris (her publishers) to use the photo of her on all the back covers of her books. She did not give them the copyrights and, consequently uses that image, herself on her website, blogcritics.org, Facebook etc. It has become a sort of trademark.

I'm still having trouble figuring out why I can't import the image of her huband, TOM WARDER, from Creative Commons. Murella (talk) 21:38, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * If she owns the copyright, then the directions at WP:Donating copyrighted materials should give her (and you if you choose to assist her) insight into how to allow the material to be used at Wikipedia. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:47, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

A;ologies I was unable to delete all files named M.Warder, and even when I attempted to download "Marie Warder.jpg the M.Warder,jpg image kept appearing/ Murella (talk) 06:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Testing
Please stop testing edits on live articles, as you did with this edit to Marie Warder. Please use the "show preview" button prior to saving any changes to make sure they worked the way you intended. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:41, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry! I guess that "to err is human!" Sometimes I think it looks okay, and so I save it. And the taking a second "preview", just to make doubly sure, I see something with which I am not satisfied. Please just hang in there. Only three images to insert and then you're shot of me! I'm not exaggerating when I say that this has been a "hell" of an experience!

Murella (talk) 21:44, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I hope that I have succeeded in successfully uploading images from the Commons, to my article.

Murella (talk) 18:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Adding images
You repeatedly try to add images to Marie Warder, but the text you are adding is:

It appears that you are using the WikiEditor's "insert picture" function, but you are not editing the automatically generated text to insert your own pictures. What picture are you trying to insert into the article? Perhaps I or another editor can help. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 18:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd be very grateful for your help. In desperation I had asked Marie Warder for her permission and her help, and because I was not getting anywhere fast, I pleaded with her to insert the pictures for me. She accordingly created an account and, when using the WikiEditor's "insert picture" function, she is correctly referring to herself, hence the claim that they were her own.

Murella (talk) 19:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what it is you're trying to say when you write "when using the WikiEditor's 'insert picture' function, she is correctly referring to herself". The insert picture function creates a block of text in an article that one is editing which allows the editor to make a reference to a file that has already been uploaded to Wikipedia or WikiMedia Commons.  It does not insert the picture directly into the article being edited.  If the file has not already been properly uploaded, it cannot be referenced in an article.  If the file has been uploaded, please provide the name of the file as it exists on Wikipedia or WikiMedia Commons (not the filename as it exists on your computer), and I will attempt to insert the image into the article.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Am I permitted to refer here to the TOM WARDER article? Seven of us got together and our vote was unanimously that it should NOT be deleted. We consider it to be excellent. We do, however, want to offer the suggestion that, perhaps by deleting the EPILOGUE past of it, the editor who thinks it reads like an obituary might be appeased.

Murella (talk) 19:27, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You are permitted to refer to just about anything you want here. However, it does not good to discuss the Tom Warder article here -- if you have a comment to make regarding its deletion, you should make that comment at Articles for deletion/Tom Warder.  Note, however, that your assessment of the article as "excellent" may be more based on your familiarity with Mr. Warder and his widow than with the article's quality and its adherence to Wikipedia guidelines.  The article is a wonderful tribute to Mr. Warder, but that is not the purpose of Wikipedia.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Re the images I inserted. Marie released them into Commons. These included a photos of herself - one of which I particurly wanted to feature...the one her husband took in Ottawa after the Medal Ceremony. Not trying to be provocative, but what do you actually find wrong with the TOM WARDER article? I'm genuinely interested. It has been pasted on Facebook and Twitter, and the remarks have been good.

Also, what to I do now about pasting an image of Marie Warder on my article? Apart from getting permission and then attmpting to do it, myself, I twisted her arm to do it for me, via Commons, and it still doesn't seem to meet with your requirements. Again - I'm not being petulant, but PLEASE tell me what to do next! Since it is about her,it's incomplete without a face.

Murella (talk) 00:28, 3 June 2010 (UTC) Your kind offer "I will attempt to insert the image into the article." One Marie uploaded into Commond and which I want at the top is called Marie Warder, and the other - which I had hoped to paste near the text referring to her medal, is called Ottawa 1991. Keeping my fingers crossed!

By the way, how can one look at pictures that are in Commons. There is a link at the foot of the Tom Warder article, but, of course not under mine one about Marie. Murella (talk) 00:40, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I have added the images you requested. I have also removed the image of Tom Warder because 1) it is available on his article and 2) it would have made the article too crowded.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:13, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. It looks good and the folks at the CHS and HSSA are thrilled because it helps their cause.

You have been so patient and helpful. I have learned a great deal - but never again! My hair is three shades whiter! Now I need to try and find out how to post comments concerning the deletion of the TOM WARDER. Article. As I mentioned, a group of us have been emailing and there's a protest on Facebook, but I guess it won't help to note this here. Some of the comments really make sense. He really ISBold text "The world's most common HHC patient, and it is a fact that not a single day goes by without someone, somewhere reading "The Bronze Killer" which, in turn, motivates the readers to check the Net to find out more about him. -- What better place to go for research, than Wikipedia.


 * I'm glad I could help, because as I've said from the outset, I believe Ms Warder is notable as the founder of these various associations. However, as valuable as the CHS and HSSA may be, it is not the intention of Wikipedia to help their cause.  As for the Tom Warder case, please understand that the retention of his article (i.e. the outcome of Articles for deletion/Tom Warder is not a vote.  Enlisting your friends / associates to come to the discussion solely for the purpose of trying to tilt the outcome is considered canvassing and is generally frowned upon.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:32, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

An offer of help of a different kind
Now that we've straightened out the image problems on Marie Warder, can I offer assistance of another type. This talk page has gotten rather unwieldy. You can archive older content onto a backup page so that the current discussions are easier to find. If you would like, I could help you with that. Or you can seek assistance from any other experienced editor. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:34, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I shan't be "talking" after today. With your assistance my own article is "done" - glory be! And we did not solicit "sympathetic" responses.We asked for carefully considered opinions.

Murella (talk) 16:57, 3 June 2010 (UTC) So much for not talking any more! On second thoughts, although I can't see myself bothering you too much after this, I would appreciate it if you would archive older content onto a backup page, yourself.

Now my present reason for loggin in. Please believe me, I am not trying to be provocative; just genuinely curious. There is a "citation needed" remark attached to a reference citing ABC Bookworld and it puzzles me why that should be necessary. If it is true - as one of the editors has remarked - that auhors can upload their information themselves, then Marie could have done so, too. And if it is the story behind her own impulse, and posted there herself, what further citation is needed for what is in fact a personal admission? Murella (talk) 19:43, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Referring to ABC Bookworld, the remark to which I refer is "unreliable source" not "citation needed", but my remarks concerning the fact that if someone says anything about him or herself, that is a reliable source. May I remove that phrase?


 * BC Bookworld is an unreliable source for a number of reasons. First, it is essentially a blog where anyone can log in and claim they are an author of note and write a biography.  There is really no verification that the creator of the biography is the biographee themselves.  Second, if the creator IS actually the writer in question, this is considered a primary source, which are also considered unreliable for reasons given at that link.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Re: The Bronze Killer is recommended by professionals around the world. I need some help with this, please. Numerous documents (letters etc.) which confirm this statement have been placed at my disposal and there is even a very recent message - one from the University in Austin Texas -  in the guestbook on Marie's website, but, unlike what is printed in Prof. Finch's published document,I can offer no links. As private correspondence is not acceptable to Wikipedia, and I can't use resort to scanning or any other method of furnishing proof what can I do except hope that you take my word for this?

Murella (talk) 20:05, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll consider this a moot question at this point since you have provided a reference for this fact, in the form of the 1995 Canadian Reader's Digest. However, for future consideration, if you cannot find a reference that is in a valid reliable source, then it may well be that the fact cannot be allowed to stand.  A "fact" such as "The Bronze Killer is recommended by professionals around the world" is very hard to verify, as we can't poll professionals around the world to see if they are recommending the book. However, if a publication such as Reader's Digest makes such a claim, we can have a reasonable expectation that their editors have done due diligence to verify that it is true.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for that explantion. It makes sense. I am about to add a link to her citation for the Medal, and I hope that, as it appears on an official document, sufficient proof will have provided.

Murella (talk) 17:54, 6 June 2010 (UTC) I happened to go to the TOM WARDER article to see whether it was still listed for deletion - and sincerely hoping that it was NOT - and there happened to find a useful reference that I have now added to mine about MARIE.

Murella (talk) 19:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Dromedaris Books
I hardly think we can take Dromedaris Books as a reliable source concerning Marie Warder since she owns the publishing company and it is solely dedicated to publishing her books. Before editing this article any further, please review WP:Reliable sources to make sure that the sources you are adding are valid. Also, once again consider your own conflict of interest in this matter and think about whether you should be editing the article at all. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I understand, and in any case, except for adding a date to the Fickburg News ref, I've done all I can. Just to put the record straight on one account, if I had not worked with Marie for some time before following my geologist spouse around the world, I would never have had access to so much info about her. Whatever I contributed to the Dromedaris Books website was done nearly ten years ago, when the earlier books were still being published by Maple Lane, before Dromedaris Books took over. The three versions of the Bronze Killer were the self-published books. Thanks for all your help, Signing out now.

Citation
I have added the citation for Marie's medal. In the picture of her with the medal, it can be seen beside her. Murella (talk) 20:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Quoting the text of the citation is not a valid reference. As there is no published material stating that she won the award, we basically have your word for it that the text of the citation is as you have quoted, and that the citation was actually given.  And since you haven't provided the name of the organization that awarded the citation, it may be or may not be a meaningful event.  (If the citation was awarded by, say, Volunteer Canada, or some such other nationally-recognized organization, it would be significant.  If it was awarded by, say, the ladies' auxiliary of the local fire department or some other such minor group, it would be less significant.  If it was awarded by the Canadian Hemochromatosis Society, it would be almost totally insignificant, as this is the organization she founded, and such an award would be somewhat self-congratulatory.)  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The document is signed by Benoit Bouchard, then Minister of health. At the top of it is "goldleaf" medallion - the same as that on the medal - and it was awarded to her in Ottawa, on Parliament Hill (The House of Commons.

Somewhere in "talk" I had seen a remarl to the effect that there was no citation - so that is what I have sent you. Do you want me to send you the letters from members of Parliament who wrote to congratlate her? What a pity one can't fax Wikipedia.

Murella (talk) 22:14, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Describing the document in more detail does not, in itself, help much: it is still the case that we have only your word for any of the details. One of the requirements of an acceptable source is that it must be verifiable – that is, it must be possible for other Wikipedians, if they wish, to look at the source themselves and confirm that it says what it is claimed to say. This generally means that source should be publicly available, for instance in a professional publication; offering to send copies individually to anyone who wants to see them (apart from being an imposition on you) wouldn't satisfy the requirements. Things like letters sent to a private individual, such as the letters of congratulation you mention, are usually not accepted as sources in any case.


 * An example of something that might be an acceptable source is a professionally-published list of recipients of the medal, but as WikiDan has mentioned, such a thing is hard to track down without knowing the correct name of the medal and of the organisation that awarded it. —Paul A (talk) 02:36, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

(How refreshing to see organisation with and "s" after I have been trying, painstakingly to spell American! Having re-read that issue of the Reader's Digest I see that the award is referred to as the "Canada Volunteer Medal of Honour and Certificate of Honour" and it is presented by the Government of Canada.


 * I really hate to sound argumentative about this, but I can find no evidence that the Government of Canada awards a "Volunteer Medal of Honour". When I perform a Google search of "Canada Volunteer Medal of Honour", all I find are references to Marie Warder, as if she is the only one to have ever won the award.  A search of the Government of Canada website provides no relevant results.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:44, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I phoned Ottawa this morning and the person who answered was very helpful and has promised to call me back with the info. The name of that special medal - which was last awarded in about 2004 - has been changed. Meanwhile I am getting a photos of it for you. The front of it as well as the inscription on the back. (By the way, the very nice, French speaking person who is assisting me, is surprised that anyone should not recognise the ribbon as being the one used for Canadian Medals.

PS. Just has a phone call from Archives Canada, and I am now going to follow the leads provided to me. I am advised to go onto Google and check out Archives Canada Library and then type in Marie Warder. Have also been provided with another phone number in case I don't find what I am looking for. Murella (talk) 15:39, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Murella (talk) 15:39, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

This just received from Ottawa: (It's not much, as yet, but at least it proves that there is, or was, such  a medal.She assures me that mention is made of someone who was awarded it in 1993.

''Dear Ms. Murray:

This is the link I have just mentioned to you about a recipient of the Medal in 1993.

http://www.cbsc.ca/english/documents/annreports/annreport-1996-1997.pdf

I will contact you when I have found the precise information about the medal.

Sincerely,

Louise Caron''

Information and Research Services Division / Division des services de l’information et de la recherche

Library and Archives Canada / Bibliothèque et Archives Canada

395 Wellington Street, Ottawa, ON

Canada K1A 0N4

reference@lac-bac.gc.ca

Murella (talk) 18:09, 9 June 2010 (UTC) Searching through the document for which Ms Caron has provided, I found this:

Sally Hall continues to Chair the Prairie Regional Council. A long time consumer advocate and representative of the public, Sally served as President of the Consumers' Association of Canada in both Manitoba and Alberta before becoming National C.A.C. President for four terms. She is also a volunteer public representative on a variety of civic, provincial and national boards and committees and in 1995 was presented with the Canada Volunteer Medal of Honour at a ceremony in Ottawa.Italic text

This proves that. I await further info.

Murella (talk) 18:24, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


 * No, that just proves that someone else is claiming the same honor. It is not quite acceptable as verification that the award exists; it is not at all acceptable as evidence that Ms Warder has ever won the award.  Please understand that I'm not calling you or her a liar; I'm just trying to maintain the verifiability of information in this encyclopedia.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:42, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I realize that, but at least I have people in the Government Library doing research on Marie's behalf. Another message, received later, refers to the fact that records concerning the award of that particular medal don't go back further than 15 years, so I wait fot this lady to get back to work tomorrow. Just one small point. Where and how did the photo of her wearing the medal come about?

Murella (talk) 01:13, 10 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Since the currently uploaded photo shows no detail – none of the detail of the medal is visible, and none of the writing on the framed document is legible – all it demonstrates is that at some point Marie Warder stood next to a framed document while wearing a shiny circle around her neck. It can't be used to verify what the medal is, who it was awarded by, or what it was awarded for; for that matter, it's not even possible to be sure from the photo that they're Marie Warder's own medal and document, and not borrowed from somebody else.


 * You mention that the ribbon is a particular one used for Canadian Medals; I'm afraid this is a non-starter. You would have to find a verifiable source for this assertion, because "somebody said so in a conversation I had" isn't eligible, but I expect that could be done; the real problem is that any attempt to argue that Marie Warder's medal is a Canadian Medal because it is suspended on a Canadian Medal Ribbon would fall foul of Wikipedia's No Original Research rule. —Paul A (talk) 02:32, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

While I understand what motivates your remarks, I find them extremely insulting and somewhat childish. In any case, before reading this, I had already written to the Canadian Dept. of Information, and hope to have a response shortly. Do you really think that a woman of this calibre would go to the lengths of dressing up and wearing a fake medal? What would be the point? Murella (talk) 04:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC) Uploaded images of both medal and certificate. Murella (talk) 01:47, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I am sorry for the insult. It was not intended, and I promise you that I don't actually suspect Marie Warder of deceptive conduct. (I don't think I had better say any more on this subject unless I can be sure not to put my foot straight back into my mouth.) —Paul A (talk) 14:31, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Canada Volunteer Certificate of Honour.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:Canada Volunteer Certificate of Honour.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

http://btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-fra.html?lang=fra&srchtxt=canada%20volunteer%20award&i=1&index=enw

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created [ in your upload log]. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 05:42, 12 June 2010 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Salavat (talk) 05:42, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I went to her house and, although clearly a little embarrassed at the idea that so many images might cause people to think that she was showing off, she kindly allowed me to photograph both the medal and the certificate, and gave me persmission to release the pictures into Commons, so, to all intents and purposes that is my work. I did not take a picture of the citation, however, because I had already posted that in my article. .

The medal is in a beautiful royal blue velvet box, and I have a photo of that, too, but I wanted the image to be as large and clet as I could make it.

I don't know what else needs to be done now, but I even had  a girl at the Royal Mint involved.

Murella (talk) 06:17, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

There is a note at the bottom of the article advising me that the medal and certificate images will be deleted on the 19th unless more poof of their validity can be provided. Well, the mystery had been solved. The name of the award has been changed but the Govt. reference library sent me this link today. http://btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-fra.html?lang=fra&srchtxt=canada%20volunteer%20award&i=1&index=enw How do I pass this one to the Commons?

Murella (talk) 01:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Images again
Once again, you have tried to insert images into Marie Warder. Clearly, you do not understand how this process works. If you'll give me the names of the images you tried to insert, I'll try to help you. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:54, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. And you're right. I do not understand how this process works. I thought that the captions that came with the pictures were sufficient. One is the image of the Canada Volunteer Medal of Honour, and the other (which has the Minister's signature on it) is the Canada Volunteer Certificate of Honour.

I'm sure you'll be a as pleased as I am when all this hassle is behind us - but I have made some valuable new friends in the process. (I'm on first-name terms with folks from people who do the Government's website to a nice girl at the Royal Canadian Mint!)

Murella (talk) 14:51, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Needless to say - and quite understandably - Marie is very sad to discover that the article about her husband has been deleleted. Even more so because, for some inexplicable reason, the photo of him (which I did post to my article about her) has also been deleted. Can someone please explain this? I think it is in Commons, but I don't know how to access that.

Murella (talk) 16:29, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The English Wikipedia's copy of the Tom Warder photo was deleted precisely because it is now in Commons: once an image is in Commons, it's considered unnecessary (and potentially confusing) to have other copies of it elsewhere in Wikipedia. Here is its info page on Commons, and here is some sample code for adding it to an article:
 * —Paul A (talk) 15:01, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll explain it to her like that, Paul. I think she just felt that she had "stolen his thunder!" Anyhow, when I realzed that the TOM WARDER was about to be deleted, I copied it and posted it in one of her blogs and she is thrilled! I hope it was okay for me to do that as I had no sooner saved it than it was deleletd. Herewith the URL for the blog in case you're interested. http://thisisnotaperfectworld.blogspot.com/

Murella (talk) 20:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I think you've found the ideal solution!! WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:57, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

What a relief! I logged in with some apprehension, fearing that I had comitted some sort of contravention, but I think it's a beautiful blog and what has now been posted seems to fit in with what she wrote a few months ago. Murella (talk) 22:08, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I've read all your instructions concerning the importing of an image from the Commons, but I'm dashed if I can figure out how to do that. As I have wrtten once bfore, I think one needs a special PhD to understand how Wikipedia works. Anyhow, it's been fun in spite of the hassles. Murella (talk) 16:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Just add the following text to the article where you want the image to appear:


 * I would suggest that, since the picture is so large, you might want to consider adding it as a thumbnail instead:


 * This particular syntax will create a smaller copy (200 pixels wide) of the picture that floats to the left side of the page, with the caption "Tom Warder" and an alternate text to be used by page readers for the visually impaired. I hope this helps.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I really like what you have done and Marie will LOVE it!

Murella (talk) 18:31, 16 June 2010 (UTC) Would it be a good idea for me to enter a link to that blog about Tom Warder? http://thisisnotaperfectworld.blogspot.com/ Murella (talk) 18:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably not. Wikipedia has a policy regarding external links, and links to blogs are generally frowned upon.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I always appreciate your input. Murella (talk) 16:05, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

New Article
Murella, you posted the text of a proposed new article here, with the question: Should I use this as a separate article or add it to "Notes" on the Marie Warder article? Murella (talk) 06:18, 20 June 2010 (UTC) I have taken the opportunity to move the text to User:Murella/The Bronze Killer and to make a few minor formatting tweaks. I think it will be easier to discuss the new article in its own talk page. Please see my comments at User talk:Murella/The Bronze Killer. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:19, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Signatures
While it is encouraged for people to sign their messages on discussion pages, it is against the rules of Wikipedia to sign articles, because it implies that the article is the property of a single editor, instead of a shared work based on the contributions of many people. You need not worry that your individual contribution will be lost; that's what the page history is for.

For a fuller explanation of Wikipedia's guidelines in this area, please read Signatures. —Paul A (talk) 08:19, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I did this in error, only because I thought I ought to explain that I had removed two or three commas. I hope you were able to erase that.

Murella (talk) 14:52, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

New reference
Regarding this edit, in which you added a reference to "Notification 1963". Is "Notification" a magazine? Do you have a copy of the magazine? If so, a more complete reference would include the article title and author, and the date of the publication. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:39, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

No it's not a magazine and I use the word "notification" for waant of a better term. The "notification" came in the form of an announcement at a meeting and in a note. I'm still waiting for a response to all the emails I have sent to the National Council of Women in South Africa and I have also asked one of her former students (via Facebook) to phone the office - if it still exists - at a number I found on the Net.

I am also about to add a sentence and link to the first paragraph of the article, and I hope you will approve.

Murella (talk) 18:27, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * As you will probably already have found out, I didn't approve. The sentence you added read: "A gifted, self-taught musician, she played in her husband’s very successful band for thirty-five years – from the time she was nineteen."  Phrases like "gifted, self-taught" and "very successful" are called peacock terms and should be avoided, especially when not supported by the reference in any way.  The reference you provided barely verifies that Marie ever even played with the band, and it verifies that only through a very personal reflection section.  This is not at all a reliable source, and I'm hesitant to let it stand at all, except that the point being made is not so central to the article.  I have rewritten the sentence to contain the facts that are verifiable from the reference: "Warder was also a musician who appeared with her husband's band, The Venturians."  It is because of edits like this, where you're just trying to be nice and say nice things about your old friend, that I strongly urge you to not edit this article any further.  You do not seem to be able to see past your own conflict of interest.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Dan, I thought that, because her name and mention of her participation appear in that video, it would substantiate my remark about her musical prowess. You are right, of course, about my wanting to be nice, but you only have to seach the Web to find how many grateful people who owe their lives and those of their extended families, to the societies she founded or helped to find (including the Australian one), are equally loyal, and now that she is so very sick herself, I thought it was time to do this for her.
 * The fact that she played with a band does not indicated that she was either gifted or self-taught. Many really poor musicians play with bands of varying levels of success all the time.  If talent alone were enough to guarantee success, the musical landscape would be so much different than it is. And once again, I will say that your desire to praise your friend, who has done much good in the world, is laudable.  But Wikipedia isn't the place to do it.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:12, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Now - on another subject. Can you please advise me. In my opening remarks in the article, itself, I have the names of the HH societies and the dates of their establishment in the wrong order and would love to correct that, but I am nervous about doing so in case I mess up the order of the references. I promise you that I am really done with this - but I must pass on some more info, just for your interest.
 * According to the provided references, the CHS was founded in 1980 and the HSSA in 1988. The text of the article had the HSSA founded in 1987; I have corrected that.  Other than that, I don't see that any other correction is needed.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:12, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

According to a book I have just read, she really did learn to play by ear (when she was six - and in secret - because her mother had forbidden her to touch the piano!), her husband's band was so successful that  they played a minimum of four gigs at weekends, and it was chosen to play for the Coronation Ball in Germiston. Once she had immigrated to Canada, she earned her living by demontrating pianos and organs (even at the Pacific National Exhibition.) After this I shall really leave you in peace. Murella (talk) 18:56, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If the book was written by Warder herself, and published by Dromedaris Books (her private publishing company), I would consider that an unreliable source, and I would avoid adding the fact the article based on such a source. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:12, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

'''Oops! Never noticed this !'Italic text'' She did not play with the Venturians! That was the band of 27 Squadron in wartime. The video link to TOM WARDER'S post-war band mentions her and how she came to play in it. I'm hoping that once you have checked out this link, you'll decided to retain my original reference. Murella (talk) Murella (talk) 19:06, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I see you have already corrected the reference. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:12, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Even if you can't be persuaded to accept what I wrote about her as a musician, can that substitute sentence please be edited? I don't like the repetitiom of "Warder was also"

Having just been shown the Certificate of Recognition presented to Marie, and the reference to how the annual Awareness Month was instituted, I considered it important enough to add the the first pargraph.

Murella (talk) 05:19, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Murella (talk) 05:48, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if you disapprove of my prose style. You are free to edit the prose if you'd like.  Remember, however, that the Wikipedia Manual of Style calls for biographical subjects to be referred to by their family name rather than their given name, as this imparts a less personal tone to the article.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:12, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Not disapproving of your prose style at all. I just thought that we had too many repeats of "also". I would "also" like to change the "is" to "was" in connection with the presidency of the SA society, because she no longer retains that title.

Murella (talk) 18:00, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Citations again
How many times are we going to have to tell you that you can't just pepper an article (especially a biography with uncited facts, as you did with this edit to Marie Warder. The fact that you have "... just been shown the Certificate of Recognition presented to Marie" does not constitute a reference.  Your personal knowledge cannot be used as a verification.  We keep having this same discussion.  Please read and understand the guidelines that have been pointed out to you many times before.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:47, 3 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Please tell me how to provide you with the necessary citations in this case, short of sending you a copy of the Certificate of Appreciation? I can easily scan it, but I can't do this with the hundreds and hundreds of other proclamations (some of which are enormous!) Sincerely, Dan, although I know by now that you require citations, I really thought that this time, in providing you with the name of the Mayor, and the date of the presentation, I was complying with your requirements. Murella (talk) 15:18, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This problem arises a lot on Wikipedia. Basically, certificates and other memoribilia held in personal collections are not citable sources, because they are not available to the general public for verification.  If there is no public record of the event, then the event may not be notable enough for inclusion in the encyclopedia, even if the overall subject of the article is.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:13, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * More apologies. Today I tried to enter some details from the CHS website and other sources, thinking that I was providing the necessary citation concerning Mayor Blair and his proclamation (some of the details of which can be confirmed on the History page of the CHS website) but it did not work. I find it very difficult to read and  to insert details on an "Edit" page, and I have probably pasted the additional info in the wrong place. Going to HELP did not solve my problem.Murella (talk) 23:50, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what problem you had, so I'm not really able to help you as much as I'd like. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:13, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Copied and pasted from the History Page of the Canadian Hemochromatosis Society, but I'm darned if I can insert the reference in the right place.
 * Awareness Month


 * Each year since 2007, May 1-31 is observed as HHC Awareness Month. Prior to 2007, May 25-31 was observed yearly as Awareness Week. 523 new diagnoses can be directly attributed to the efforts of CHS volunteers during the first week of awareness, proclaimed in 1987 by the mayors of most Canadian cities and by the Government of British Columbia. In some families two, three or more – in one case nine affected members – were subsequently found. There must be hundreds of whom the society will never know. It is believed that in finding one person, there is the hope of saving an entire family Murella (talk) 23:59, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You added that material to the article, and I have reworded it to avoid copyright violation issues. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:13, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks again for your help. I am really done with it now, but need to ask one final question. Re: reference 5. "to follow suit".[5][citation needed]  -- Why, if there is already a citation, is another one needed? Murella (talk) 04:56, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The "citation needed" note still existed because, when you added the citation, you did not remove the cn tag that followed it. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:13, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Finally, regarding this series of edits, I have removed most of this information as it represents your own unverifiable personal reflections, not encyclopedic content. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:13, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again. Well, I guess it't time to quit and return to my "day job".

Murella (talk) 14:03, 4 July 2010 (UTC) Sorry! - I omitted to add the tildes at the foot of a sentence just added/ Murella (talk) 15:21, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Corrected two dates.

Murella (talk) 16:00, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Not done yet
You keep saying you're "really done" and yet you keep not being really done. This edit is inappropriate in that it links to a blog site, which is generally frowned upon per the Wikipedia policy on external links. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 15:16, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I understand. This was only added because, when I first wrote this article, there seemed to be some doubt re the "300 articles" and I was consequentlty - and quite naturally - thrilled to find proof. I don't intend to write any more on this subject, so should I stop searching for a citation for the story about the motivation behind her writing a story to earn money for the boots?

Murella (talk) 15:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I beg your pardon for once more signing off in the wrong place. I was only editing the very first part, and again could not find where to put the tildes. Now, since posting the info, I realize that, in copying and pasting info on behalf of someone else who was unsuccessful in doing so, herself, I omitted the word "lay" before "chaplain". I am planning to do that now, but I shan't sign off in case I don't do that properly. Murella (talk) 22:12, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You seem to be confused about signatures. They don't belong in articles at all.  No where.  Not where you've inserted new information, and not at the end of the article.  The article's page history will provide the evidence that you added the information, but the article itself should not contain evidence of you hand in it.  This violates the collaborative nature of the encyclopedia.  However, you should continue to sign your posts on talk pages, etc.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:46, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Lay chaplain
I'm sorry that we keep bumping heads like this, but you can't cite Dromedaris Books, a website owned and operated by Ms Warder and to which you, as her former publicist, no doubt had a hand in creating, as a reliable source of information for the Marie Warder article. In order to be considered a reliable source, the source must be independent of the subject. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:06, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I was hoping to scan the "certificate of appreciation" given her when she retired from the hospital, but she was not happy about that so I hope that  the citation I have inserted will be enough to bring the head-bumping to an end. I was delighted to be provided with a 2003 copy of the Delta Optimist. Unfortunately, however, as it is hardly in a pristine state, and Jan Westell could not be reached, I am not able to provide the precise dates re month and day in 2003. PS. Actually the website belongs to Dromedaris Books. There will soon be others dedicated to several new SA authors andI shan't be involved in providing text for them. Murella (talk) 21:06, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You provided this text as a reference in Marie Warder:
 * Marie Warder many years as a lay chaplain at the Hospital in Delta, British Columbia . ... Delta Optimist (June 1991) Vancouver Sun (June 1991),The Toronto ... 11 KB (1,534 words) - 11:07, 16 July 2010
 * This really isn't a valid reference because another editor would be unable to verify the information based on the vagueness of the source. Did the quote appear in the Delta Optimist?  The Vancouver Sun?  Some work in Toronto?  And what is the "11 KB (1,534 words) - 11:07, 16 July 2010" supposed to convey?  Please help clarify this reference so it can be properly used in the article.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:43, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

It appeared in all three papers, but I do not have the faintest idea of how that 1KB quote crept into this. If you hadn't pointed this out to me I should never have noticed it. I am about to insert info about Professor T. H. Bothwell - one of the world's foremost authorities on Hemochromatosis. Murella (talk) 20:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Bothwell
Regarding this edit, is it in any way relevant who diagnosed Warder's husband? Of equal importance, is it in any way verifiable? WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. I consider it of the greatest importance to mention Bothwell. - The world's greatest authority on Hemochromatosis. He and Finch go together like "love  and marriage",or "horse and carriage" and, as I wrote to Pieter Kuiper once, Marie says that if he hadn't taught her how to recognize HHC by looking at people's knuckles, she would not have written about that in The Bronze Killer and numerous patients would have fallen through the cracks.

Murella (talk) 00:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC) FYI Bothwell is famous for so many achievments.http://www.mrc.ac.za/healthdevelop/2006contents.pdf

[CITATION] Hemochromatosis TH Bothwell, RW Charlton, AG Motulsky - The Metabolic Basis of Inherited Disease, 6th ed, … Cited by 137 - Related articles

Murella (talk) 00:25, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The reference you made to Bothwell merely mentions that he diagnosed Tom Warder's condition. In that sense, the fact is completely irrelevant to the article, and amounts to "namedropping".  If Bothwell and Marie Warder had a relationship from which she derived knowledge of the disease, you should mention that, rather than just blindly dropping his name.  However, once again, the problem is one of verifiability.  Since there is likely little evidence of any contact between Warder and Bothwell, any mention of their relationship is problematic.  Best to leave it out.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I inserted the reference to Hemochromatosis and the mention of Sheldon(iv)because other articles on the subject (eg. Finch)described it as a (a)blood (b) disease and it is neither.

Murella (talk) 06:28, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If this is the change you're talking about, you must have forgotten to log in because that change was made by . As I mentioned on that user's talk page, this addition is irrelevant for two reasons:


 * 1) It is not a "reference" in the sense that it does not actually verify any facts in the article.
 * 2) The article is about Marie Warder, not about haemochromatosis.  That fact might well be useful in the haemochromatosis article, but it is fairly irrelevant in Warder's article.  (Of course, the fact that the source is 75 years out of date might make the factual information from that source somewhat irrelevant.)  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay I agree. In any case I had marked it incorrectly. The Sheldon reference is still quoted in most medical dictionaries and is accepted by all HH societies. The rest of it comes from the Bronze Killer and the CHS, and I added the bit about it only becoming a disease if left untreated because it is a proven fact, and several people who have clicked onto the Hemochomatosis link provided in my article, have commented on such errors in it. It is not a blood disease! I asked Marie if she would like to edit that article, but she wouldn't - regarding that as an imposition (despite her frustration at some of what is contained in it.)

Murella (talk) 16:19, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That's all very fascinating, and probably very germane to the hemochromatosis article, but it is not at all germane to the Marie Warder article. Feel free to edit the Iron overload or HFE hereditary hemochromatosis article if you feel they are inadequate.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll pass this on, and maybe she'll also get Bothwell and some of the American and Australian guys to have a look at it. This year the International BIOIRON conference, at which she is to be the key-note speaker (if she is well enough)is to be held in Vancouver, in September, and she will have the opportunity to discuss the article with them. Murella (talk) 16:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't understand your reluctance. You seem quite interested in getting out factual information about HHC -- then those articles are the place to do it.   WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 17:18, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Did not want to be an upstart, but no longer so reluctant. Got this via the CHS...

Inborn errors of metabolism comprise a large class of genetic diseases involving disorders of metabolism. The majority are due to defects of single genes that code for enzymes that facilitate conversion of various substances (substrates) into others (products). In most of the disorders, problems arise due to accumulation of substances which are toxic or interfere with normal function, or to the effects of reduced ability to synthesize essential compounds. Read more at Wikipedia'Italic text'

Web Search 79,249

•Inborn error of metabolism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Inborn errors of metabolism comprise a large class of genetic diseases involving disorders of metabolism. ... Inborn errors of metabolism are now often referred to as congenital ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inborn_error_of_me...

Murella (talk) 18:17, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

On second thoughts: I checked out all these links and NOT ONE of them mentions the most common of all - HEMOCHROMATOSIS! It would take forever to edit them all!

Murella (talk) 18:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

This is not your personal blog
Regarding this edit, please remember that the Marie Warder article is not your personal blog site. External links within the body of an article are highly discouraged, and are especially inappropriate if they don't really have anything to do with the article. Clement Finch already has an article on Wikipedia -- there is no need for you to link to Marie's personal blog on the topic of his passing. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:23, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Connection to Ladner and Delta
I have been trying to find links in response to a request for more info about Marie's associaiotn with Ladner and Delta.

[snip] Copyright material removed. [/snip]

Now I am waiting for the Editor of the Optimist to find the precise date of the article about the chaplaincy at Delta Hospital in Ladner.

Murella (talk) 00:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * As you can see, I have removed the copyrighted material you had included here -- its inclusion, even on your talk page, violates Wikipedia's copyright guidelines. It would have been better simply to paste the link to the site from which you copied that text than to paste the text itself.  However, that is all irrelevant as the text did not confirm the fact that she was a chaplain at the hospital.  (I don't doubt that fact, I just point out that the text you provided did not mention it.)  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 10:58, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I understand, and I'm hoping that the editor of the Optimist will come up with the necessary info today. Their archives don't see to go back very far. Regarding the other "links." I posted them because there seemed to be some doubt as to Marie's link with Ladner and Delta. I hope that, at least, I have convinced you that she fits into the "Famous People of the "category.

By the way the so-called "copyright" material which I took from the paper, itself, is on Google. As is the Wikipedia article. The remarks and the icon posted at the top of it, must be very embarrassing to Marie. When I have finallly found all the info you require, will you remove it? Murella (talk) 14:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC) Murella (talk) 14:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The material you had posted here had a very clear copyright statement associated with it. The material is not "on" Google, but was found by the Google search engine; the content is still owned by the original publisher.  As for Marie Warder's article being searchable by Google, that is true -- the Wikipedia article on many topics is often among the most prominent search results.  The "icon" (actually a template) at the top of her article merely states that the citation style used in the article is unclear.  How is this embarassing to Ms Warder?  The citations are, in many cases, unclear, as you have provided citations to articles without providing the exact dates of those articles.  I understand why you have done this, but it does make the citations unclear.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:13, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I had to provide an image of her medal in order to prove that she really did receive it. Will I have to scan the Delta Hospital and South Fraser Health Authority Certificiate of Recognition dated May 16, 2002, in order to substantiate the fact that she was a chaplain? Unfortunately the archives of the Delta Optimist only date back 5 years. No wonder the citations are, in many cases, unclear.

Murella (talk) 05:44, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The citation that exists there now is fine. The fact is not so central to the article that it needs to be iron-clad.  The reason the "clarification needed" tag is there is that you have not provided the name of the hospital; you've only referred to it as "the hospital in Delta."  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:08, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I am thrilled to have been given an old copy of the church's pew bulletin, from which I have taken the following info: "After having been inducted at St. David’s Anglican Church in Tsawwassen, British Columbia on January 19, 1997, as a member of the International  Order of Saint Luke — at a service following the pattern of the OSL" I am now going to insert it into the article. Murella (talk) 15:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't really a valid source for verifiability as it is not a source that is available to the general public. Newspapers and magazines are generally archived and, if necessary, can be accessed by anyone with the willingness to go to the effort to do so.  (For example, I can go to a public library in British Columbia and obtain back copies of the local paper there.)  Church bulletins are not publicly archived; your private copy does not represent a source that is publicly available (unless you would want perfect strangers knocking on your door to see a copy).  Also, the fact is mostly irrelevant; Ms Warder is notable for her work in the field of hemochromatosis, not for her involvement in religious activities.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 15:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * PS -- I was unaware of the manner in which you intended to use this snippet. The note you have added does not verify her work at the hospital, nor does it clarify the reference.  Clarification was needed for two points:
 * The sentence in question read "A devout Christian, she was familiar for many years as a lay chaplain at the Hospital in Delta, British Columbia." Clarification was needed as to the name of the hospital.  Your new version reads "A devout Christian, she was familiar for many years as a lay chaplain at the Delta Hospital in Ladner,British Columbia."  This clarifies the name of the hospital.
 * The reference previously given refers to an issue of the Delta Optimist published in 2003. As this is a bi-weekly newspaper, a date more specific than the year of publication is necessary to verify the quote.  This clarification has not been provided.
 * Since the note you added does not verify anything, and is in itself not verifiable, I should not have been added. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I thought that having the date would at least verify something and that providing the name "Delta Hospital" would help t remomve the "clarification" thing.

Murella (talk) 23:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Marie Warder .jpg
A tag has been placed on File:Marie Warder .jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section F9 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the image appears to be a blatant copyright infringement. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted images or text borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag - if no such tag exists then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hangon tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Eeekster (talk) 23:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Reference style
An open letter to those erudite and experienced editors who have posted comments like: ''“This article's citation style may be unclear. The references used may be made clearer with a different or consistent style of citation etc.”'' that you are dealing with an absolute amateur when it comes to posting an article on Wikipedia. I have only done this to honor a great lady, because of whom I - and many of my relatives around the world - enjoy a better quality of life than would have been the case without her endeavors. Many of the references are not of the best, I freely admit, but they have provided in an attempt to substantiate what I have written.

Murella (talk) 02:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You need to understand that such notices are called "maintenance templates". The text pre-written, and the user who put the notice on your page simply typed something like "citation style".  This is not meant to be an insult to you or to anyone, since Wikipedia articles are created my many different authors.  It is simply meant to indicate to an interested editor that the citations in the article need to be improved.  There are editors at Wikipedia who will see a notice like that and immediately take up the task of improving the references.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Delta Hospital
A tag has been placed on Delta Hospital, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing no content to the reader. Please note that external links, "See also" section, book reference, category tag, template tag, interwiki link, rephrasing of the title, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article don't count as content. Moreover, please add more verifiable sources, not only 3rd party sources. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content. You may wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.

Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. If you plan to expand the article, you can request that administrators wait a while for you to add contextual material. To do this, affix the template   to the page and state your intention on the article's talk page. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this.  Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 16:27, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Now that I have found and entered the link to Delta Hospital, can someone please delete the word "clarify" for me? I don't seem to be able to do that. Murella (talk) 23:14, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

More on references
I have removed the link to the Delta Hospitals Emergency Room hours page. I'm not sure what purpose such a link served other than to prove that the hospital exists, which was never in doubt. The fact that needs to be verified is that Warder acted as a chaplain there.

I have also restored the "clarification needed" tag. You don't seem to be getting the point we are trying to make here. The dates during which she was a chaplain are not the issue. You have provided a reference to a newspaper, but the only date you have provided is 2003. Since the Delta Optimist published 104 issues in 2003, a more specific date is needed in order for an independent editor to review the Optimist's archives to verify the fact in question. Can you give a specific date of the publication? I presume you have a copy or have seen a copy, since you provide a specific quote from the publication, so it should be easy enough to look at the publication and provide the date of its publication in the reference. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:29, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

WOW! FOUND IT! "Can you give a specific date of the publication?" - '''Yes! January 1st, 2003.''' Doubled-checked with "Optimist" and they do publish even on public holidays. All I am unable to do now, is insert that into my reference. I doubt if independent editor would find, it, however, becasue as someone has already stated, their records don't go back far enough. I am sorry, however, that the link to Delta Hosptital has been removed, because I think it was an oversight not to have one in the article about Ladher and Tsawwassen.

Murella (talk) 17:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC) Murella (talk) 17:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The date of the publication is sufficient. If someone is motivated enough, they can go to a public library in British Columbia and check the microfilm archives.  Thanks for finding it.  As to the link to the Delta Hospital, I removed that because it wasn't appropriate.  In general, external links (embedded URLs of the form http://www.someplace.org ) are inappropriate within the body of an article.  Internal links (of the form Example page ) are encouraged, but since there is no article on the Delta Hospital in Ladner, then an internal link will be a redlink like it is here, and we try to avoid those in articles.  The link was also inappropriate because it did not verify Ms Warder's activities at the hospital; it merely confirmed the existence of the hospital.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:10, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I wrote you a really flowery note to thank you for your help and your incredible patience. Somehow while saving it, I was cut off and obviously the message has not apeared here. Also inserted a reference,in the article, to Mayor Blair of Richmond's presentation of the certificate to Marie.

Murella (talk) 18:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Tom Warder (Large).jpg
Thank you for uploading File:Tom Warder (Large).jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created [ in your upload log]. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 17:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I got it from the owner, his wife, Marie Warder, who has left a message on her page about Tom Warder, to the effct that she has given me permission to use it and for it to be saved in Creative Commons. Murella (talk) 01:27, 18 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact that a user creates an account with the name Marie Warder does not guarantee that the actual Marie Warder owns the account. Anyone can create an account with any name.  I have never uploaded any images to Wikipedia, so I am not entirely familiar with the process, but since the pictures you uploaded (the cover image of The Bronze Killer and a picture of Tom Warder that appears in that book and on Warder's website) are clearly copyrighted by other sources, those sources (Warder herself and/or her publishing company) must contact the WikiMedia Foundation and directly inform them that the images are available according to WikiMedia's licensing guidelines.  (I.e. once properly uploaded here with proper licensing information, the images will be freely available for anyone to use in any way they choose, so long as they attribute the images to Wikipedia.)  If that is OK with Ms Warder and her publishers, they should follow the directions at WP:Donating copyrighted materials.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:25, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Tom Warder.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:Tom Warder.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created [ in your upload log]. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 18:21, 2 October 2010 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Slon02 (talk) 18:21, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

The images I uploaded today are now both in Creative Commons Share Alike

Murella (talk) 18:28, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi. If you got permission to use these, we need to get that on record. If you look at Requesting copyright permission, there is a list of the stuff that needs to be done and an example email that you could get Mrs Warder to send to us. If you have any questions about this, please ask me. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:29, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Marie has spent hours and hourstrying to complete the Commons form, but, because these are family pictures, and this one was one taken in 1953, it is repeatedly rejected as not having a specific photographer. It is on YouTube, among Google images, and in the public domain. To whom would you like her to address the email?

I have found two lovely pictures - one of Tom Warder (Frederick Abinger (Tom) Warder, and also the jpeg of Marie on the AUTHOR page of www.dromedarisbooks.com (http://www.dromedarisbooks.com/14721.html)

Murella (talk) 23:28, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

This is the picture we both like best, and it is in some of her blogs; however if having a photo on a website qualifies it for uploadingl I shall go to www.dromedarisbooks.com and choose one that is there.

Murella (talk) 23:20, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Murella (talk) 23:16, 3 October 2010 (UTC) The image of Tom Warder uploaded today, is not the one that was previously rejected.

 This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License. This applies to the images of Marie Warder, Tom Warder WW2 and The Bronze Killer.


 * You claim that these images are licensed under the Creative Commons license, but there is no indication of that at their source website. Since Ms Warder owns that website, she must contact the WikiMedia foundation, using an email address associates with that website (perhaps webmaster@dromedarisbooks.com or warder@dromedarisbooks.com or some such) indicating that permission is granted, OR she must place a disclaimer on that website claiming that all content is available by the Creative Commons license.  However, by doing so, she will be allowing any visitor to use these images for any purpose whatsoever, not limited to their use here on Wikipedia.  If she is willing to release the images that way, she should contact WikiMedia foundation ([mailto:permissions-en@wikimedia.org permissions-en@wikimedia.org]), and the text of her email should follow the guidelines shown at WP:CONSENT.  Failing this, these images are still considered a copyright violation.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:38, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Both she and Dromedaris Books have attempted to do that, without success; however I have found out that the 'Tom Warder.jpg' that I am now trying to upload  is in the Commons under Mandolin Players. It right down on the last row of rhe images. It won't be where I tried to insert the previous image but it will be better than nothing. In the meantime the webmaster has promised to do that. Evidently the one in contention (the image I have been trying to upload) is also free of copyrigh because it was taken during the WW2 and South African copyrights expire after 50 years.

Murella (talk) 18:06, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Modifying template documentation
I'm not sure how you ended up making this edit to a general use template documentation, but it was a mistake. (Don't worry, I've fixed it.) It appears that you are trying to justify the use of the image of the cover of Warder's book, The Bronze Killer, on the article about her. This does not conform to the fair use criteria under US copyright law (the laws that govern the English Wikipedia). The image could only be used to illustrate an article about the book itself, as its use there, in a low-resolution version, would constitute a "fair use" of the image. It cannot be used to illustrate an article on any other topic, including an article about the book's author. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 22:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Bestbk cover.jpg
Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:Bestbk cover.jpg. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the file description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. ww2censor (talk) 00:41, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Bestbk cover.jpg
 Thanks for uploading File:Bestbk cover.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. ww2censor (talk) 00:41, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Forgive me. Marie Warder's publishers (Dromedaris Books) assured me that they had been uploaded to Flickr and I was under the impression that images from there were considered okay to use. If that is not the case, I am prepared to let this go.

Murella (talk) 15:37, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Grammar
In this edit you corrected the word "last" to the word "latter". Latter can only be used when referring to two things; when referring to three or more, the word last must be used. (See this reference.) WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC) Sorry about that. I could not have been concentrating very well because I genuinely thought I was referring to only two. By the way, the citation for a new edition of the book, Penny of the Morning Star, will be forthcoming after Saturday.

Now I am sick of trying to upload images. Domedaris Books (whose webmaster is temporarily indiposed and unable to embed info into their website) sent me a copy of an email referring to 3 jpeg images uploaded to Flickr, which I cannot find; and no matter how hard I have tried, I have to insert this image from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Mandolin_players it is not accepted.

Murella (talk) 19:29, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe I have found and inserted the image you wanted. You may wish to move it somewhere else in the article, but you should keep the syntax:
 * [[Image:Tom Warder Mandolin.jpg|thumb|right|250px]]
 * intact.

Thank you for all your help. It is a rotten picture and Marie says she looks very "prissy" but at least it compensates for the deletion of the article she wrote about Tom Warder. There are several other images in the Commons, relevant to my article, but, as I wrote yesterday, I've had enough; and I'm sure you have, too. All I plan to do after the relevant story about the new version of "Penny of the Morning Star" appears in th press, is to upload a link in order to provide the necessary citation.

But here's one story I should share with you. After I had incessanly bothered the head of Dromedaris Books on the score of providing more forceful permission to use images of Marie and The Bronze Killer than I had been able to supply, she spent two nights trying to do this -- to put me out of my misery. Among other things she uploaded them to Flickr and assigned them from there. No success! Then she finally tried to open a Wikipedia account on behalf of Dromedaris Books... Encore!... Rejected! All attempts failed, so what else is new?

Anyhow you will no longer have to be pestered by me. I commend you for you patience throughout this marathon! Murella (talk) 15:35, 8 October 2010 (UTC) PS.Just HAD to come back for a final check - and guess what? I was led to discover - to my horror - that I had left out what, in connection with Hemochromatosis, is the most important word of all...hereditary!Italic text

Murella (talk) 17:09, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Link to Tom Warder images a the foot of my article. I said I was done with this article, until the lady I mentioned yesterday alerted me to the fact that a link to more images had been found in the Commons. How exciting that the very one we tried so hard to upload - more than a dozen times and claiming each time that is was free of copyright - is now uploadable. I have a good mind to try and do that now, just to see if that is possible.


 * Considering that the subject of the article is Marie Warder, the article really doesn't need two images of Tom Warder. One image would do.  I would suggest the picture without the mandolin, as it appears to be more recent and a better image overall.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:40, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I quite agree. It was not the image I wanted in the first place, but at least it was in Commons and, after you had so kindly found it, I was satisfied/ Now how do I remove it? Meanwhile I have found "The Bronze Killer" in Commons, and I'm planning to upload it. That will instill some colour into the article.

Murella (talk) 16:17, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Latest attempts to add an image
With this edit you attempted to add an image to the Marie Warder article. The syntax you used: The Bronze Killer.jpg would not have worked even if a file with that name actually existed on Wikipedia or at Wikimedia commons. The syntax you need to use is This will create a thumbnail image that floats to the right side of the page (or use "left" if you prefer), with a caption. However, since the image you tried to insert doesn't exist, I can't really help you. There is another image that you have uploaded (Image:Bestbk cover.jpg), but that image has been tagged for deletion because the licensing information is not clear. Book cover images are generally only allowed by fair use rules if they are used to illustrate an article about the book, but not to illustrate an article about the book's author. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I checked. Dromedaris Books uploaded it to Flickr and assigned it to Commons. How glad I am that you intervened so swiftly. By the way, Marie's last book (I mean 'last' not 'recently') is a the printers. Because of a neuromuscular disease she "spoke" in instead of writing it.

Murella (talk) 16:56, 12 October 2010 (UTC) Nothing works! The image is being confused with something called "Strong Poison" Murella (talk) 17:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry Ms Warder's health is failing. I hope there are others around the world to take up the mantle of informing the world about HHC.  As for your frustration with image uploading, I know it is a hard feature of Wikipedia to figure out.  I believe the confusion you're having with "Strong Poison" is that you are trying to edit a Wikipedia file called Template:Non-free use rationale/doc.  This file represents the documentation for the "non-free use rationale" template; it is not intended for you to edit it.  Rather, you are supposed to include the template on the Image:Bestbk cover.jpg page by typing the following:


 * After each of the "=" in the template, you enter the required information, as in the example below:


 * Again, I will tell you that, even though you can add this template to the Image:Bestbk cover.jpg page, I do not believe that this file meets the fair use criteria defined by United States Copyright Laws, because the image is not being used to illustrate an article about the book, but about the book's author, and I don't believe that usage qualified. In short, I do not believe that you can fairly add an image of this book cover to Ms Warder's article, unless her publisher is willing to relinquish all rights to the image.  (I.e. that would would allow me to print out copies of the book cover and slap it on any book I care to print, and the publisher would have no recourse because they released the image to the public domain.)  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 17:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I assure you that I have been informed that her publisher has released not only the image of the book cover, but also one of Marie that appears on every book in the Dromedaris Stories from South Africa series. Maybe it is taking a bit of time for this to appear in Commons, because evidently there is a sort of 'queue' system.

Meanwhile I have to edit and insert Tom Warder's full name. Murella (talk) 22:33, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Have just checked. Both the images of Marie and Tom are in Commons as jpegs. Murella (talk) 22:55, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

13 October 2010
You have been trying to add an image of Marie Warder to the Marie Warder article. Unfortunately, the image you are trying to add (File:Marie Warder.jpg) does not appear to exist on Wikipedia. Not sure where you think it is (as you wrote above that you just checked), but it is not at the page you are trying to link to. Perhaps if you can find the image, and then copy the URL (in the address bar at the top of your browser), and then past that URL here in your talk page, in response to this comment, I will be able to help you get the image into the article. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 18:57, 13 October 2010 (UTC) Thank you. The previously listed one Marie Warder.jpg - dating back to the deleated article about TOM WARDER - and in among a host of images in Google and the public domain - was considered to be too big - and I was pleased to find a replacement Marie Warder 2.jpg in Flickr, after I had read the email from Dromedaris Books. I'll go back into that correspondence and gratefully let you know. Murella (talk) 00:07, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Still trying to find image. Thanks for the offer of help. Murella (talk) 06:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Do not make the mistake that simply because an image is easy to find in Google or on Flikr that it is in the public domain. Google is a search engine -- the images displayed when you use the Google image search function are not hosted by Google but are owned by whatever website they are hosted on.  Images loaded to Flikr are owned either by Flikr or by the user who uploaded them, but there is no implied consent to release these images to the public domain.  Copyright issues are tricky, I know.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how your could have stuck it with me and my obsession for so long, and you don't know how much I appreciate all you have done to help me get this thing off the ground. However, although the email passed onto me by Dromedaris Books raised my hopes, before I went to bed last night, I made myself a promise that if the situation had not changed by this morning I would give up. Now please just tell me one more thing. I have to wait for the press announcements about Marie's new book in order to provide a citation for that, but wouldn't an Amazon reference do?

Murella (talk) 17:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, an amazon reference would be fine to indicate the existence of a book, but not much more. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 17:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info - but would that reference be sufficient to remove the "citation needed" thing? Murella (talk)
 * Yes. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

After all this, why are you guys still considering the deletion of the Tom Warder image? Murella (talk) Is it because when Pieter Kuiper had the picture added to Commons it was attached to the now deleted aricle written by Marie Warder about her husband? Surely once it's in Commons it remains there? If that is not the case, I am too discouraged to want to write an article about the singer/actress Melissa van der Schyff - Marie's granddaughter.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Tom_Warder All the pictures I have tried to use are in Commons - even in "Mandolin players." Murella (talk) 22:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not clear that all images in Wikimedia Commons are there legally. It's just that no one notices the copyright violation until the image is used.  I'm sorry I don't have any better answers for you on how to properly attribute these images to allow them to remain.  Perhaps you can try placing a helpme template here on your talk page, followed by the question of how to properly upload a picture, and a knowledgeable administrator will guide you through the process.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:04, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

That's okay. I am now going to try and insert a picture taken more that 50 years ago, which means the SA copyright has expired. But please tell me something.If hand you my camera an and ask you to take a picture of me, is it mine then - or yours? I have an image of Marie taken in the chapel of St.David's Church in Tsawwassen, at her request, to be sent to her children. Murella (talk)
 * The latest image you tried to add didn't work. There does not appear to be a file called File:Tom Warder: 27 Squadron South African Air Force, 1943.jpg.  Perhaps you uploaded it with a different name?  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:02, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I have forgotten how to insert the new image. Murella (talk)
 * If you can tell me the name of the image, I can insert it for you. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:11, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Tom Warder: 27 Squadron South African Air Force, 1943. He was 19 then. Murella (talk)
 * As I have noted above, there is no file with the name File:Tom Warder: 27 Squadron South African Air Force, 1943.jpg in Wikipedia. I can't add it to the article because it doesn't exist.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:28, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

It is an entirely new file, but I can't find the "upload" in the side bar to do that.

Murella (talk) 16:31, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * See Uploading images for help in uploading images. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 17:23, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I have done it with your help - for which I am eternally grateful - but have probably erred in designating it as being in Commons. By the way, Marie's book "With no remorse", which is in Commons features references to Tom's Squadron in Malta. He was 19 then.

Murella (talk)

Problems with upload of File:Tom Warder 27 Squadron South African Air Force, 1943 .jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Tom Warder 27 Squadron South African Air Force, 1943 .jpg. You don't seem to have said where the image came from, who created it, or what the copyright status is. We require this information to verify that the image is legally usable on Wikipedia, and because most image licenses require giving credit to the image's creator.

To add this information, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the information to the image's description. If you need help, post your question on Media copyright questions.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
 * Image use policy
 * Image copyright tags

Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 21:07, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Nothing happens when I click on the link, but I can supply the info. No one knows who took this picture because none of Tom Warder's contemporaries are alive any more. No copyright exists in South Africa after 50 years and it was found in a family album by his wife, Marie Warder, who is only too happy to have it included in the Wikipedia article about her.

Murella (talk) The images I have uploaded today are both in Commons. Murella (talk)

File source and copyright licensing problem with File:Venturians best.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Venturians best.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.

As well as adding the source, we also need to know the terms of the license that the copyright holder has published the file under, usually done by adding a licensing tag. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the GFDL-self tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Non-free content, use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have created [ in your upload log]. Unsourced and untagged files may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the file is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Fair use) then the file will be deleted 48 hours after 00:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. ww2censor (talk) 00:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Bestbk cover.jpg
 Thanks for uploading File:Bestbk cover.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. ww2censor (talk) 00:10, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Found The Venturians in ''Media related to Tom Warder at Wikimedia Commons" The book cover was part of an excellent article about Tom Warder, written by Marie Warder and was moved to Commons by Pieter Kuiper before the article was deleted on the grounds that he  - Tom Warder - was not "not important enough" to deserve an article about him.

When I could not successfully upload the book cover from Commons, I asked Marie help me download a different one from her computer - and it seems tha, in doing so, I spoiled eveything! There are numerous copies of it on Amazon, Google etc.

Murella (talk) I have just been informed that both the photo of Marie and the image of the Bronze Killer cover have been released into Commons. Do I reload them, or do you? Murella (talk) 15:54, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You can reinsert the images into the article if they have been uploaded to Wikimedia Commons. However, the mere fact that they have been uploaded does not mean they won't be deleted again.  Without proper licensing information, they won't be allowed to stay. (This has always been the problem with images you have tried to use in the past.)  If you can tell me the names of the files, I can help you out.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:17, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Evidently the images - Bestbk cover.jpg and mariewarder.jpg were sent to M.G. Bryant by Dromedaris Books, with permission for unrestricted use. A few exchanges that have kindly been shared with me: Thank you for your email. The whole situation regarding the use of the images by Murella has been a puzzle to us. Both images - namely those of The Bronze Killer and the author, Marie Warder -  which we are only too pleased to release into Creative Commons, appear on the same book cover and have been used repeatedly on the Internet for many years, yet "Murella" seems to have been unsuccessful in having them included in her article on Marie Warder. We are only too pleased to attach them here, for your use and trust that they are of a suitable size.

Murella (talk) 19:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The fact that the images have been used freely around the internet for years does not indicate that they are freely available; it only indicates that the owners are not strictly enforcing their ownership rights. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:13, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Having contacted Dromedaris Books personally I find that they are quite flabberghasted, and suggest that I was probably to blame for using the wrong terminology when uploading both images. I was reminded that in their response to M.G. Bryant they stated categorically that "We are only too pleased to attach them here, for your use and trust that they are of a suitable size."

They reminded me that they have lent over backwards to help me, even to the extent of inserting the images in Flickr (followed up with correspondence to Wikipedia) and that another of their covers - namely With no remorse...Italic text" which was also part of Marie's now deleted article about Tom Warder, has been retained in Commons. Murella (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2010 (UTC) Murella (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC) I have the assurance of Dromedaris Books that both the image of Marie and the cover of The Bronze Killer are already in Commons. But when I try to insert them, I am confronted with the usual request to assign them to Commons, and that gets in the way. Murella (talk) 00:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Have just had a message from Dromedaris Books to say that, following an email received by them, it doesn't look as though their efforts are going to be helpful. The man who assigned the images to Commons in order to help me has no way of knowing whether or not tney were accepted, and now that I have inserted a few more citations in my article, I'm ready to sign off, too. Anyhow, thank you so much for your patience and help. Murella (talk) 16:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Okay, now I have done EVERYTHING I was instructed to do. Both the image of Marie Warder and that of the book 'The Bronze Killer' are in Commons. Why am I unable to upload them? Murella (talk) 01:17, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Purpose of references
Regarding this edit to Marie Warder, please remember that references are intended to verify the facts in question. You may also create a separate group of notes that provide a footnote-like expansion of the text that is not necessarily suitable for the main body of the article. However, the edit in question did neither, it merely incorporated a link to Kimberly (which I presume meant to be a link to Kimberly, South Africa). Presumably this is where the HSSA was founded? If that is the case, a parenthetical phrase might have sufficed, but really, the exact location of the founding of the society is probably not relevant. In any case, your use of this reference really is not in line with the Wikipedia's use of such references, and so it has been reverted. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:48, 19 December 2010 (UTC) Thanks for the explanation. By the way, the spelling of the SA city is Kimberley

Murella (talk)

Please delete the "Citation" inadvertently added to my info on Marie Warder. It is not meant to be the title of a new article. (Finger trouble!!!) The web adddress for the Canadian Hemochromatosis Society has been changed to http://www.toomuchiron.ca/index.php which means that I have to update reference #4 of the article, but, having saved it, I am wary of accessing it again, as I am mindful now of the reprimands already received. Murella (talk) Sorry I have not been able to insert the following info successfully: or any of the others. In regard to the citations which are needed for the rest of the statements you are querying, literally dozens of photos and supportive info etc., will be posted on the Net, Facebook and Twitter during the coming week and I hope to add them to this article. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:17, 1 June 2011 (UTC) Twice deleted the incorrect insertion and rpleaced it with http://www.hemochromatosiscny.org/ not all do this in May, but it does not appear like that.

I am very grateful to you for ironing out the mess I made while trying to insert the URL of the American Society which observes an Awareness Week.. However, I am somewhat dissatisfied and concerned about certain other changes that were made to my article, for the reason that they are not strictly correct. For instance, my reference to the fact that an article by Marie Warder was accepted for publication by the British magazine everybody's, was worth mentioning for the plain and simple reason that she was only 17 at the time, and she actually wrote two articles for them.

As the Wikipedia article now reads it gives the impression that her books have all been self- published; whereas before she came to Canada she was a regular contributor to a leading book club as a result of which all her early novels were rated as "Books of the Month." Furthermore it is also not quite correct to conclude that she "owns" Dromedaris Books just because this is the name attached to her website and it gives the impression that every book she has written since coming to North America was self published. A more accurate study would reveal that some were published by Imperani Publishers and some by Maple Lane. Because it would be too confusing and too time-consuming to enter the details for each of her books, I think that Wikipedia would be better served by simply omitting any reference to which book was published by whom.

What I personally find remarkable, is that since she has been stricken with a neuro-muscular disorder, she is no longer able to write books. - She talks them, producing them with the aid of a voice-recognition device. This has now become too demanding, and April in Portugal will probably be the last book she would ever write. It is for this reason that I have tried to set down as much info as I have been able to put together.

Why do you need a citatiom for Dagbreek Book Club when you already have a Cat link 10 and a complete list of Marie's books to support it? Any way here is one. Dagbreek-Boekkring, a South African book publisher.[citation needed http://www.worldcat.org/title/niemand-so-blind/oclc/36230980 I am wary of fiddling with the article because I seem to have a problem with inserting links, but I shall correct a spelling error and one statement.

Adhering to my decision not to edit the aricle again and "save" too much, I supply the following info for you to do with as you please. First of all your statement: She married bandleader Tom Warder and moved with him to Canada” She married him when she was ninteen and he twenty-one, not long after his return from active service with the South African Airforce in North Africa, Oran and Malta. He was more than a bandleader and the world’s best known hemochromatosis patient. Frederick Abinger (Tom) Warder was not only the world's best known hemochromatosis patient, but was, in addition, an athlete, an inventor, a musician and an inventor whose expertise in the field of mechanical, electrical and gyroscopic instrumentation was acknowledged internationally. Among other things he was the inventor of the gyroscope brake, an  incubator in which babies were taken to South Africa to be for treatment by the famous heart transplant surgeon, Christiaan Barnard and, together with his brother, the inventor of the worlds first finger-removal bottle top... She moved with him to Canada in 1975 to be with their children who had emigrated from SA during the Angolan War. What a pity that the article about him was deleted from Wikipedia!

Secondly: "Warder was listed among South Africa’s top seven “favorite novelists” by Dagbreek-Boekkring, a South African book publisher." I have been given access to a regular Dagbreek mailout ciculated by Dagbreek - a South African bookclub  - and can scan it to convince you, but, as it is in Afrikaans it probably won’t be of much use to you. Her books were frequently chosen as the “book of the month.”

I have no way of knowing whether or not you have seen what I posted last night, so I can only continue to hope that you may take my comment relating to the "bald stement" that Tom Warder was "bandleader" seriously. Because of him many people are alive today. A while back you sent a note to the effect that one could post footnotes but I cannot find that message now.

While I am still unhappy about the "bald" statement that Marie married "bandleader" Tom Warder, considering that he only did that part-time while getting back from the war at the age of nineteen to take up to a job with a commercial airline, our greatest concern has been eliminated. Evidently the relevant Wikipedia editor realized overnight that, in listing books released by so many different publishers, his reference to Dromedaris Books was not valid. I am so relieved!We regarded the link stating that Marie Warder "owned" Dromedaris and used it to publish her own books as being libelous.

Re: “Self-published (Dromedaris Books is owned by Warder and exists solely to publish her books.”

We are infuriated by the comment that states that Marie Warder owns Dromedaris Books and uses it to publish her own books. How on earth did the Wikipedia editor of the article come to that conclusion? He or she overlooked the fact that there is a small heading above the website stating" "Marie Warder's Dromedaris Books." She just happens to be the first of the 'expat' South Africans (her final book for Dromedaris has just been released) but others are now writing, and as each new book is published, the writer is have his or her own name at the top. Please delete that statement.