User talk:Murphanian777/Archive 2020

== Your submission at Articles for creation: 1895 Indianapolis Light Artillery Eleven football team (April 6) ==  Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Sulfurboy was:

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Sulfurboy (talk) 20:10, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Draft:1895 Indianapolis Light Artillery Eleven football team
Wow. Your work on Draft:1895 Indianapolis Light Artillery Eleven football team is really great, and I'd be happy to assist in having it moved to main space. The biggest problem I see with it (as with your recent filling out the NC State season articles) is the use of bare urls. See WP:BAREURLS for an explanation as to why this is problematic. Could you go back and fill in fuller citations on the 1895 Light Artillery article? Cbl62 (talk) 17:42, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * BTW, I started a stub for 1894 Indianapolis Light Artillery football team. Feel free to expand if you have interest. Cbl62 (talk) 23:15, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

College football season articles
Murphanian777, thanks for creating all those early NC State (North Carolina A&M) season article. I've made a bunch of edits to them to clean up the formatting. If you plan to create more articles like these, which would be great, please take at look some of the changes I've made to ones you've already initiated. I'd be happy to discussion any of the points of style there. also had some feedback for you about citations in his edit summaries at 1916 North Carolina A&M Aggies football team. Keep up the good work. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:30, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: List of NC State Wolfpack head football coaches has been accepted
 List of NC State Wolfpack head football coaches, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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Thanks again, and happy editing! Sulfurboy (talk) 22:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of 1892 South Bend High School football team


The article 1892 South Bend High School football team has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "No indication of meeting WP:NSEASONS."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.  Willsome 4 29  (say hey or see my edits!) 03:03, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

1893 De La Salle Institute football team
Thanks for your efforts in creating articles on historic college football teams. However, 1893 De La Salle Institute football team raised an eyebrow. According to its Wikipedia article, De La Salle Institute is a high school. Wikipedia generally does not permit season articles on high school football teams, and there doesn't appear to be anything extraordinary about 1893 De La Salle that would warrant an exception. Cbl62 (talk) 17:10, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * 1892 South Bend High School football team also falls into this same category. Both of these articles would almost certainly be deleted if brought to AfD. Better to avoid disappointment by not creating further season articles on high school teams. Cbl62 (talk) 17:13, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip, I only had four more planned articles for High School teams anyway. Murphanian777
 * FYI, I plan to nominate these for deletion. It's nothing against your great efforts.  We just need to hold the line on season articles on high school teams.  Allowing them would open an unmanageable flood gate. I hope no offense is taken. Cbl62 (talk) 02:38, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The deletion discussion for the 1897 South Bend High team can be found at Articles for deletion/1892 South Bend High School football team. If you believe I'm wrong in nominating this, you are, of course, welcome to state your view there. Cbl62 (talk) 02:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The second discussion is found at Articles for deletion/1893 De La Salle Institute football team. Cbl62 (talk) 04:07, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

None taken. They weren't exactly packed with content. If I may ask, what is the reason for your policy against high school season articles? I'm guessing it's a notability issue. Murphanian777 (talk) 21:34, 23 May 2020 (UTC)Murphanian777
 * While it's not "my" policy, I do think it's a sound policy for a couple reasons. One is notability.  Second, though, and more important, it would be impossible to monitor and maintain quality. There are 24,000 public high schools in the US, probably 30,000 when you count the private high schools. If we were to have season articles for all of those high schools, we'd be opening the door to something like 2-4 million season articles on high school football teams. Cbl62 (talk) 23:35, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

cfb link
Murphanian777, hey, per your edit at 1955 Notre Dame Fighting Irish football team on the Penn link, there's no need to edit instances of Template:Cfb link, provided they are set up with the correct team name and year. As soon the relevant specific season article is created, the cfb link template will point its hyperlink to it, and then a few hours later a bot will update the code. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:43, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Noted, thank you. Murphanian777 (talk) 06:54, 19 May 2020 (UTC)Murphanian777

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1909 Miami Redskins football team moved to draftspace
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Speedy deletion nomination of Beloit College football
Hello, Murphanian777,

Welcome to Wikipedia! I edit here too, under the username Meatsgains and it's nice to meet you :-)

I wanted to let you know that I have tagged Beloit College football for deletion, because it doesn't appear to contain any encyclopedic content. You may find our guide for writing quality articles to be extremely informative.

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Meatsgains (talk) 23:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh thanks, I wanted someone to delete that, I was trying to redirect Beloit to their college Wikipedia article, and accidentally created a new page.

stylistic request
Hey Murph -- I have one more stylistic request that will save time down the road. Wikipedia's stylistic approach is to use only initial caps for newspaper headlines, even when the newspaper itself uses all caps. Accordingly, the title line describing a newspaper source should read "Knox, 68; Chicago Dentals, 5" rather than "KNOX, 68; CHICAGO DENTALS, 5". Thanks and keep up the good work. Cbl62 (talk) 20:24, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Category:St. Viator football seasons
Hi, Murphanian777,

Could you please add some parent categories to this category so that it is integrated into Wikipedia's category structure and not isolated? I'm not sure what St. Viator is but other similar football organizations would probably be appropriate. Liz Read! Talk! 22:10, 12 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Liz, did you have anything in mind? I'm unfamiliar with the category structure. Murphanian777 (talk) 03:08, 13 June 2020 (UTC)Murphanian777


 * Liz, thanks for dropping the message. Murphanian777, when you create a new category, you need to categorize that category, in similar fashion to how you categorize articles, so that the category becomes part of the tree of categories. Note that the correct category for the St. Viator season articles is Category:St. Viator Irish football seasons. Check out the code in there in edit view. I think you'll get it. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:26, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of 1908 Franklin Baptists football team


The article 1908 Franklin Baptists football team has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Fails NSEASONS, no indication of notability."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

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Proposed deletion of 1908 Chicago Physicians and Surgeons football team


The article 1908 Chicago Physicians and Surgeons football team has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Fails NSEASONS, no indication of notability."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. JTtheOG (talk) 21:01, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of 1908 Wabash Little Giants football team


The article 1908 Wabash Little Giants football team has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Fails NSEASONS, no indication of notability."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. JTtheOG (talk) 21:01, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * FYI - I thought you handled this prod very effectively. Most people would be surprised that Wabash played at a very high level at this time. Just look at the 1908 schedule with opponents including Notre Dame, Nebraska, Michigan State, and Miami (OH). Cbl62 (talk) 21:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of 1892 Kalamazoo football team


The article 1892 Kalamazoo football team has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Fails NSEASONS, no indication of notability."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

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Ways to improve 1909 Rose Polytechnic football team
Hello, Murphanian777,

Thank you for creating 1909 Rose Polytechnic football team.

I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:

"Very obviously notable, but just one reference won't suffice."

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and prepend it with. And, don't forget to sign your reply with. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

 Java Hurricane  02:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Just fixed it, thank you. Murphanian777 (talk) 03:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)Murphanian777

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1911 in sports in New York


A tag has been placed on Category:1911 in sports in New York requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

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In this case, we should use Category:1911 in sports in New York (state) or Category:1911 in sports in New York City instead. Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 04:05, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Dartmouth College
Hi - Thanks for adding the college and university sports teams articles. Going forward, could you make sure to use Dartmouth College rather than Dartmouth University? If you follow the university link, you will see it only existed for a couple years in the early 19th century. The Ivy League school is Dartmouth College. Best wishes, --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:06, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I've already finished the seasons I needed to create for Dartmouth, but thanks for the tip.Murphanian777 (talk) 18:07, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Murphanian

Nomination of 1921 DePauw Tigers football team for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article 1921 DePauw Tigers football team is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/1921 DePauw Tigers football team until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.  Willsome 4 29  (say hey or see my edits!) 20:01, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks
Haha, I really appreciate receiving my first barnstar from you Cbl62, and thank you for the switch. Murphanian777

Use of the "minor edit" button
Hi Murphanian777! I noticed that you recently marked an edit as minor that may not have been. "Minor edit" has a very specific definition on Wikipedia – it refers only to superficial edits that could never be the subject of a dispute, such as typo corrections or reverting obvious vandalism. Any edit that changes the meaning of an article is not a minor edit, even if it only concerns a single word. Please see Help:Minor edit for more information. Thank you. SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Unions of Columbia
Murphanian, interesting and valuable work, as always, on the club football organizations in New York in the 1880s.

I do have a concern with treating 1886 Unions of Columbia football team the same way as the official varsity teams. These were not official Columbia teams (I'll defer to your obviously more in-depth research on this topic, but do we even know for certain that all members of the Unions club were Columbia students? Sometimes clubs associated with colleges also include alumni). I also think this sets a bad precedent that would result even more confusion if applied to club, freshman and jayvee sports at every college up to the present day. The foregoing is offered in a spirit of amity and collaboration. Your thoughts? ``` t b w i l l i e ` $1.25 ` 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * First, a factual quibble -- the infobox on the article shouldn't say "Columbia Lions football", as the "Lions" mascot was not adopted until 1910. Note, e.g., 1884 Columbia football team, where the infobox is headed "1884 Columbia football team". Here the infobox should bear some version of the correct name of this team, such as "1886 Unions of Columbia" or "1886 Unions of Columbia football", or "1886 Columbia Union Club football" or something.
 * Second, I don't think links to this article (and future ones like it) belong in the navbox, or at least not in the main "Seasons" listing. I get that it fills in a gap where there were previously just gray unlinked years, but to my mind having that gap was useful: it showed the reader immediately that there was no varsity program in those years. The name of the navbox is "Columbia Lions football", and the links in the navbox should be to Columbia Lions varsity teams, as well as their recognized predecessors in years before the name "Lions" was adopted. I know the situation was a bit more fluid in the early days of college football, but today's sources, starting with the university athletic department itself, recognize only the varsity program as representing Columbia during this era, and today's sources say there's a gap, 1885-88, when Columbia had no team. It may make sense to add a new section to the navbox, below "Seasons", called "1880s club teams" or "Unions of Columbia seasons". My preferred solution would be to add it to "Culture & lore" as something like "Union Club seasons: 1885 &middot; 1886 &middot; 1887 &middot; 1888", singling out this particular club as important to the history of Columbia football without inviting future editors to add links to every club football team that's ever been fielded at Morningside Heights.

@Toll Booth Willie, thank you for bringing this to my attention. I'm afraid that I will be indisposed for most of the day, so I will not be able to address your suggestions immediately, but I do agree on most of your points. Firstly, I will fix the infobox for any pages I do create involving the Unions club team, it was more related to lazy editing than anything. Secondly, I agree with you on your stance on gray linked years. The precedent that I worked off of were season articles like the 1943 Alabama Informals football team, which did not include a Varsity football team, but discussed why the Varsity team was absent (World War II), and detailed the schedule and season of an unsanctioned team that used the facilities. I will admit though, I thought that this direction was flawed, specifically for the reason that it appears from the navbox that Alabama hosted a Varsity team in 1943, when in fact it is quite a stretch to call the informals an Alabama football team at all. The solution will indeed be for me to create a subsection under Culture & Lore, possibly a single article that details each season of the Unions and can better explain their history and importance in the AFU in as concise a manner as possible. As you've said, I have done considerable research on the Unions of Columbia, and can say with some certainty that they only existed in 1885, 1886, and part of the 1887 season. It appears that the team was disbanded to focus on intramural football teams composed of the Juniors and Freshmen, as opposed to a single club team. Because of this I am not sure if multiple articles are even necessary.

As always, I appreciate any helpful insight and direction, and thank you again for bringing this to light. Murphanian777 (talk) 19:31, 14 August 2020 (UTC)Murphanian777


 * There's WP:NODEADLINE, so no worries on the timeframe. I agree a single article under "Culture & lore" is just as good an idea as three or four Union Club "season" articles -- whatever best fits the sourcing. From my own research on Columbia football, which does not date back as far as yours, I understand that during the varsity hiatus of 1906-1914 the only form of university-sanctioned football on campus was annual "class" games (freshmen vs. juniors, etc. -- all four classes). It would not surprise me if a similar structure applied during the 1880s and 1890s hiatuses as well. Now, opening the can of worms that is "informals" ... I'm sure different schools handled World War II informal schedules differently, but when I got to 1943 Harvard Crimson football team in my current project bluelinking the Ivy League, I treated them like a varsity team. I suppose in some ways this is inconsistent with my stance on club teams, but they are included in the school's official record book (albeit labeled "informal"), they played home games at their usual varsity home stadium, and they played exclusively against other colleges or against the sorts of military camp/base teams that were prevalent on college schedules at the time. There was even talk of trying to arrange a Harvard-Yale game in 1944, which would have been an informal team playing a (still-)major team. ``` t b w i l l i e ` $1.25 ` 20:57, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Season articles on early club teams
Hi Murphanian - I've noticed that you've devoted a good deal of time and effort creating season articles on early club teams. This is an area that has been neglected, and season articles on notable teams like the Crescent Athletic Club, Orange Athletic Club, Duquesne Country and Athletic Club, Chicago Athletic Association, and Homestead Library & Athletic Club are terrific. These teams are an important interim step in the sport's evolution from a purely college endeavor to a formal undertaking by alumni of prominent colleges and then to the inclusion of paid players and eventually to the development of the modern professional game.

That said, I suggest proceeding with caution in rolling out season articles on lesser clubs which may or may not satisfy notability requirements. Under WP:GNG, there needs to be significant coverage in multiple, reliable, independent sources in order to support each article. Where such coverage cannot be found, then the articles are vulnerable to being deleted at AfD. Examples of recent creations where notability appears uncertain (at least based on the current sourcing) include: 1914 Wabash Athletic Association football team, 1895 Entre Nous Athletic Association football team, 1895 Syracuse Athletic Association football team, 1895 Elmira Athletic Club football team, and 1895 New Jersey Athletic Club football team. Cbl62 (talk) 08:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC)


 * , thanks for bring up this subject. Another issue we need to think about is how we square the participation of these turn-of-the-century club teams with proper college football teams. Are the club and quasi-pro teams part of college football? Are some, but not all? did a bunch of work a few years back on such teams from Pennsylvania, e.g. 1898 Greensburg Athletic Association season. He built those articles using NFL formatting and presented them an not part of college football, whereas the more recent articles that you and Murphanian have created treat such club teams as a part of college football. Thoughts on how we reconcile all of this? Jweiss11 (talk) 18:01, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * When it comes to independents templates (e.g., Template:1900 Eastern college football independents records), I think everyone would agree that club (and service teams) don't belong because they aren't college teams. When it comes to categories (e.g., Category:1900 in American football vs. Category:1900 college football season), it may depend on the extent to which the club and service teams compete against college teams. If such teams play a significant portion of their games against college teams (e.g., 1892 Crescent Athletic Club football team, 1901 Homestead Library & Athletic Club football team, 1918 Great Lakes Navy Bluejackets football team, I don't see a problem with putting them in a college football category, but could be persuaded that the parent category is more accurate. As for which infobox or schedule template to use, I'm open to dialogue. Cbl62 (talk) 19:37, 2 September 2020 (UTC)


 * As a matter of fact, I have been debating these questions myself in recent weeks. First, to address 's first concern, I have no doubt I can secure significant coverage for (most) the articles you've listed.  The New Jersey AC may have been an American Football Union team in 1895, which has been one of my two projects over the last few weeks.  Syracuse AA played a good portion of their games against college teams, including two future D1 schools.  They also faced off against Syracuse nineteen times in the 1890s.  Wabash Athletic Association was one of the first teams I worked on that I considered would fit an NFL format, but in my opinion that graphic looks outdated and strange compared to the college style (although I am probably biased by my extensive use of it).  The reason I created them was because of their game against Corby Hall of Notre Dame, which ties into my bigger project on a super article for all Notre Dame Non-Varsity football teams.  I will admit, Elmira AC and the Entre Nous club of Paterson will be more difficult tasks. Elmira was created because I was attempting to type up articles for all the clubs that contested against AFU members, and Entre Nous was typed up because of how incredibly obscure their organization seemed, although in retrospect I can see why they do not meet the proper criteria.  That being said I defer back to my original statement that I can find reliable sourcing and more constructive info for every team.
 * To the question of NFL and college formatting for club football teams and their place in the history of American football laid out by, I am of the opinion that it would be most appropriate to classify these teams in the parent category of American football. Recently I have stopped categorizing Athletic organizations in college football, and moved them to the parent category, because in all honestly, these were not college football teams in any respect.  The reason all of my Athletic Club teams are in the college format is merely a preference in style.  However, if I had to choose between whether these early club teams were more aligned with pro or college football, I would side with the latter for a couple reasons.  The most important to me is that the mere notion of professional football was relatively unknown among the Athletic Association ranks in the 1880s and 1890s.  Any mention of professionalism during the years I've researched had only been for the condemnation of such a practice.  I understand the reasoning behind Pittsburgh Penguin's formatting, as he worked on teams that did employ professionals (i.e. Pudge Heffelfinger and Sport Donnelly), but in general 19th century associations still fell under the rules of amateurism.  20th century athletic clubs however, like the Wabash Athletic Association, were most likely semi-professional, and played a professional team schedule as opposed to a schedule consisting of amateur athletic clubs and collegiate teams.  Because of this disparity I would say the wisest option is to simply default to the general football category.Murphanian777
 * I'm fine with categorizing club and service teams under xxxx in American football. Cbl62 (talk) 21:38, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:Notre Dame non-varsity football navbox


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