User talk:Mutt Lunker/Archive 16

Answering your question from SPI
With IP sox, there's really no need to tag userpages at all, and the practice of doing so has been de facto abandoned by the SPI team. With registered accounts, the question is what the benefit is. If a registered account's sock-ness would be useful to CUs in the future, a tag is beneficial. Sometimes admins and clerks file pro forma SPIs after a block just to sort out the record and assign tags, which is generally less "expensive" in the sense meant in my essay. But we generally ask non-(admins/clerks) not to do that, which I recognize places you in a difficult position, told not to file simple cases, not to tag, and not to file pro forma. Do you have any thoughts on what the right way to handle this is? I know what I'd suggest but I often have idiosyncratic feelings on this sort of thing. -- Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 17:54, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * As expected, block-evading IP sock activity has recommenced by the prodigious User:Politialguru. The most recent IPs in question are User:2A01:4C8:1488:3AED:4165:F5A3:F7E1:5116, User:2A01:388:261:150:0:0:1:4C, User:2A01:388:261:150:0:0:1:179, User:2A02:C7F:B412:CB00:F0DA:AB5B:DB4C:DB1E and User:2A02:C7F:B412:CB00:296A:C7CD:E752:D637. Per your closing comments at the most recent SPI and immediately above, I'm unclear now as to the course of action to be taken but you mention you have a potential suggestion?
 * Ping who is also across recent abuse. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:26, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Odd edits that have a ring of familiarity
See Special:Contributions/70.162.236.66. It's a different IP location, and a bit more sophisticated with some edit summaries, but basically the same reversion of serial commas in with all the other edits. Celebrity focused, which was one of their targets. Another editor interefered with a trap I was laying, so I changed. tactics. We'll see if we catch anything. BilCat (talk) 23:01, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

On second look, probably not Hogg, but annoying enough that they got zapped.anyway. BilCat (talk) 01:11, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Just so you know...
I am NOT User:Hoggardhigh; I am his brother. I have a different email address than that account. We both browse Wikipedia often. YappityYapp (talk) 18:31, 24 January 2022 (UTC)


 * This editor has been blocked. Among other things, rapidly making edits not just aimed at getting EDO but some pretty strange ones. Doug Weller  talk 19:33, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, characteristic rubbish. Duck's brother. EDO? Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * EDO? What? Doug Weller  talk 09:56, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * You used a term or acronym "EDO" above but I don't know what it means. Can you tell me please? Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:51, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh hell. ECP. Extended confirmed protection. Sorry. Doug Weller  talk 11:48, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * EDO - emergency detention order in a mental health context. Maybe you thought the sockpuppet needed a checkup from the neck up. 10mmsocket (talk) 11:49, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 🤣 Doug Weller  talk 11:58, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Ha, I think you both might be on to something. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:35, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Hoggardhigh is now editing from User:173.93.113.83. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:33, 11 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks... - Ahunt (talk) 17:41, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * [User:Mz7 seems to have been the last Admin involved. It would have to be a duck block. Doug Weller  talk 19:28, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Bad ping, repeating. User:Mz7. Doug Weller  talk 19:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * But I can take away ECP when they get it. Doug Weller  talk 19:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I did some clean-up there. - Ahunt (talk) 20:12, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * An IP can get ECP? BilCat (talk) 21:01, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * No I was being stupid. I would have simply blocked. Doug Weller  talk 06:49, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Now blocked and reverted, thanks all. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:26, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * They've returned to use of User:173.93.123.163. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:36, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * BLocked for 3 months, not sure about what edits need reverting. Wasn't there a problem about the editing of missing Wikipedians? Thanks for letting me know. If I'm not around, Ponyo will certainly deal with it. Starting Chemo on Wednesday, hopefully I'll be able to keep editing through the 3 months. Doug Weller  talk 09:52, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks Doug. I made a check of the recent edits and, aside from a solitary actively positive edit (removing an extraneous comment from an article) it's all pointless meddling or active MOS style choice campaigning again; nothing actually wanted or needed. I've reverted all but that one edit. As User:YappityYapp they did some messing with missing Wikipedian material which resulted in reversion. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:05, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Doug Weller  talk 11:20, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Scotch-Irish
Hello, Mutt Lunker! Sorry, I was too bold. I opened Talk:Scotch-Irish where we can discuss all calmly. --Olchug (talk) 17:19, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Per an edit conflict with each of us posting to the other simultaneously, please see your talk page. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:31, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Farewell
You know I really didn't realize just how pathetic you were until I saw the Quora reference, Mutt, that really is a new low for you. Some fanatic on Quora thinks we should retranslate Bede's words as meaning a 'language group' because we can't acknowledge that this is generally what people have gone by for most of history and that most ethnic identities historically were just 'language groups'. Quora... Jesus Christ. I genuinely think you have neurosis. You are a demented, strange, sad little creature. England and Englishness truly lives rentfree in your heart, mind and soul, don't they. You will never be anything other than a self-hating, delusional little Englishman. Enjoy your fantasy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.170.32.206 (talk) 11:40, 18 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Wow, somebody is upset and clearly having a bad day. It really brightened my own day to see that. Properly PMSL. 10mmsocket (talk) 11:50, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
 * How do you read upset from that, lmao? 81.170.32.206 (talk) 12:03, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
 * You know it's funny, I remember Mutt initially starting off our disagreements by claiming people in Scotland weren't English just because they spoke English (even the ones that descend from English people, oddly enough). As a defence he brought up how people in Africa and India who speak English aren't English (of course he was ignoring that very few people in Africa and India speak English as a first language, they use it as a lingua franca for interethnic communication and the English-speaking rates are far lower in these places than you'd believe, he was also ignoring that the few Africans who do speak French or English or another European language as their first language, or only language, in the larger African cities actually are considered a different thing to the various surrounding tribes these days and are basically breaking off into their own ethnic group).
 * Yet at the same time, I've seen Mutt constantly warring on the English people talk page that black people in England are English, that South Asians in England are English. And that the English aren't Germanic (despite speaking a Germanic language) simply because some of them descend from Celtic or other absorbed groups over time.
 * It's such a weird double standard. It's also weird that Mutt doesn't care about calling people in Scotland who descend from Picts, Celtic Britons, Anglo-Saxons, Norsemen, Normans or other later groups Scottish, when they're clearly not under any parameter (they don't descend from the Gaels, and they don't speak a language descended from the Gaels, ergo they are not Scottish).
 * It's almost like Mutt is absolutely fixated on English people and dismantling the notion of them being an ethnic group, as well as articles relating to England. 81.170.32.206 (talk) 12:17, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Sockpuppet?
You left a comment at User talk:Francisbishopdown suggesting they're a sockpuppet of a blocked user. What's the backing for this? I'll block if confirmed. Fences &amp;  Windows  15:30, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi there, WP:DUCK basically. To those familiar (there are a few of us), they have a blindingly obvious MO: same set of interests (UK politics, NE England, police, emergency services, transport, occasional others (Germany, Canada) - listed in previous investigations), largely making apparently pointless, often sweeping but insignificant tweaks to articles that hardly seem worth following or counteracting; largely mobile edits. Just when you think it's hardly worth bothering with them any more, true to form they make some large scale unsourced or otherwise tendentious edit, sometimes lashing out. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:26, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Exactly what he said - North East England cities, boroughs, Metro stations, police & other emergency services, and a small set of UK politicians. Most of it, e.g. today on Fawdon Metro station‎ is multiple very small edits that ultimately achieve little other than a re-wording of the intro paragraph. 10mmsocket (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I finally got back to this. 1/4 of the pages they edited had earlier been edited by Politialguru or another sock. I've blocked them. Fences  &amp;  Windows  11:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, I'd just clocked the block and was about to thank you - thanks! Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:51, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yay! 10mmsocket (talk) 11:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Place your bets on the next game of whackamole! 10mmsocket (talk) 11:53, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Now at User:109.175.143.49. Would you be so kind ? Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:44, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Active anew. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:54, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Currently active again. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:21, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * User:Whooooareyou. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * User:ToonArmy81. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:36, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

England
Thanks for reverting my edit there on the England page. I misread the legal act on marriages in England and Wales - detail shows Welsh is specific to Wales only here. ThanksTitus Gold (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Edit Summaries
I'm sure you are frustrated over your style conflict with another editor but please be aware of, and avoid, WP:REVTALK in your edit summaries. Remember that the edit summary is meant to reflect the content changes themselves, and are not the place for accusations, assertions of other editor intentions, etc. Some of your recent summaries appear quite inflammatory or accusatory. As always, AGF, DBTN, I'm sure you've heard it all before, just take a breath and try to be kind. GabberFlasted (talk) 17:15, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I'll reflect on your assessment.
 * FWIW, and I'm not sure if it was your intention, but your characterisation of the issue as a "style conflict" would seem to indicate that I am an advocate of one or other style in question. Quite the opposite, and per MOS:OXFORD, my aim is to counter the needless imposition of one style to the exclusion of the other. I have similarly challenged those who wish to impose the absence of the Oxford comma. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:25, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Maxwell14134
Hello, I noticed your messages on this editors talk page. I am thinking of submitting a report to WP:AN/I since evidently, they are not heeding the notices they are recieving on their talk page. I checked their recent contributions, and while some of them were fine and in line with the ties to subject etc, clearly to a degree at least they are still making edits based on personal preference and making needless changes. Since they make a lot of edits, let me know if you have any particular diffs that can be used as examples in the report of them going against MOS:RETAIN, or of course you could make the report yourself if you'd like. Thanks. TylerBurden (talk) 17:31, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi Tyler, my attention was drawn by this edit and I saw this edit today, indicating their intent to continue their campaign. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:58, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I have some concern that national ties would be used as an excuse, so I'll keep an eye on it for now and see if they make anymore blatantly personal preference changes. Though the lack of communication and collaboration alone might be worthy of administrator attention. TylerBurden (talk) 19:39, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmm, a lot of Brits seem to have the misconception that -ise/-ize is a national ties issue but, as it's not, that shouldn't hold any sway. The internal consistency argument possibly but that doesn't seem to be our friend's motivation. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:29, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Huh, I thought -ise/-ize was, with -ize being American spelling and -ise British? But English is not my first language, and it doesn't seem to be covered on WP:ENGVAR so you appear to be correct. Well, that will make things a lot easier when creating the report then. I should have time to do it tomorrow, getting a bit late for me now, knowing our friend they will probably produce some more diffs in the meantime that should make it easy enough to pick a few examples espescially when taking the -ise/-ize into account. TylerBurden (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:ISE and MOS:IZE cover it. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:03, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This is somewhat pedantic and superfluous, this the usual pointles style pref change. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:13, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I created a brief report on WP:AN/I, feel free to add to it if you think I missed anything. TylerBurden (talk) 15:03, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

As I am on this page posting about something else I will add some clarity although -ize and -ise are used in Britain the overwhelming use in modern writing is -ise. Like soccer many Brits are of the opinion that it is an Americanisms sneaking into the language, and that they are wrong does not affect the general perception. Because of this and to save the need for repeated revert as other Brits come along it is probably better to accept -ise in British English spelt (sic) articles. -- PBS (talk) 13:26, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * As American English is more widespread, the more prevalent misconception driving repeated reverts is, in my experience, in the opposite direction, where editors used to -ize don't realise -ise is a valid styling, British or otherwise. If we are to submit to misconceptions, a blanket adoption of -ize as being the only acceptable spelling would be even more productive. I would also be against that. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

PBS-AWB error
Thanks for the heads up on the error I created. I have fixed it. If you want a quicker response, it is better to use my talk page rather than the talk page of AWB account I sometimes use. -- PBS (talk) 13:20, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

City status of Dunfermline.
As an EU resident it is not possible for me to view the website containing Letters Patent. If you live in the UK you may do so. Otherwise view this https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-scotland-63088391. Maybe in future, follow the news and not be such a prick. Williamgeorgefraser (talk) 12:25, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You're a delight. Nobody's asking for whatever official site you appear to be alluding to. The Google search for appropriate terms and three or four news sources I checked, including the Courier's article, did not adequately provide support so I thought that maybe rather than doing more of your work for you, I'd hand the job back. The BBC source is ample; you could have just added it. Take a leaf out of this book. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * And please heed WP:MINOR as requested if you want to minimise your encounters with pricks. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:58, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * As someone born in Dunfermline and extremely proud of it, I wanted to be the first to update the article. Unfortunately, I haven't updated Wiki articles for some time and have forgotten most of the system. No hard feelings. I'll try to do better next time. Williamgeorgefraser (talk) 14:31, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. You may or may not be aware (if you're interested, you can peruse the edit history) that you are very much not the first to update the article on the matter, since the announcement back in May, though you are the first to do so when the status has actually been conferred. The article has long been semi-protected due to the chronic premature shooting of the duff on the matter and, with my habituation to this pattern, I'd long become loathe to expend effort for more than initial checks at the next likely false dawn, particularly if unsupported. All the best. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:07, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Sock tags
Hi : I noticed you placed the Sock tag to some IPs. Note that this template should only be applied by Administrators or Clerks as part of the Sockpuppet investigations process. Also IPs should generally not be tagged, because they frequently get assigned to different people. Thank you. Best, MarioGom (talk) 18:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Languages
The "state" parameter does not have to be a state, although it can be considered a state within the sovereign state of the United Kingdom. It reads "native to". --IWI (talk) 19:12, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * That would appear to be a personal interpretation at best. There are countries in the UK but only one state. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:14, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, there are administrative regions of the UK termed 'countries'. Countries, of course, has multiple definitions like many words in the English language, the general usage though is for a sovereign state. German states are also referred to using a term that can also mean 'country', but few people (at least outside of Germany) would say Germany is made up of 16 countries. 79.69.122.167 (talk) 19:24, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This statement has no evident bearing on the preceding discussion and the edit it was discussing. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:45, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The point is, the administrative regions of the UK termed 'countries' are not really countries. They're just administrative regions with less sovereignty than most subdivisions. People in the British Isles don't seem to understand the meaning of words (ethnic group, country, nation, language/dialect etc. etc.) in their own mothertongue, for some bizarre reason. Either that or they pretend the words are so vague and lacking definition that they simply don't mean anything. 79.69.122.167 (talk) 20:01, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Again, that has no evident pertinence to the edit under discussion. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:49, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Notbroken
Hello. I spent time last year patiently nurturing a new editor who didn't seem to understand WP:NOTBROKEN. The account turned out to be a sock of. If you find yourself in a similar situation, you may save time by looking for similarities. Certes (talk) 22:17, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the tip. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:20, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I've submitted a report. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:36, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Well waddya know?! Thanks. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:43, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Well done – another one bites the dust. Certes (talk) 11:53, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

excellent MOS:TIES change
This is what global encyclopedic collaboration is all about. There were so many unnecessary linking words in red pudding that I scoured it, and it is joyous to see thoughtful usage restoration. (Comparably: it drives me bananas when non-local television/radio presenters call my U.S. state "nuh-VAAH-da", and makes me more trusting of those who know it's "nuh-VADD-a".) Thank you! -  Julietdeltalima   (talk)  15:54, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry about that
I meant to block the harasser, but dogs and family requests for help got in the way, and I ended up blocking you instead - my apologies!  Acroterion   (talk)   17:16, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * No worries, thanks and it gave me a chuckle (after the intial, bemused half-second)! Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:22, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * A little too much multitasking around here.  Acroterion   (talk)   17:40, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, I've been there, don't worry: on the go with fat digits on a small device, editing multiple articles at once and getting them mixed up... Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:47, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Acroterion the same thing happened to me. Doug Weller  talk 19:58, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi Doug, hope you're well. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:59, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Scotland edits
Mutt,

I notice you appear to revert the majority of the edits I make on articles, particularly edits relating to the Scotland article. From time to time, I appear with your points, however, I do not feel that the vast majority of what I edit is worthy of total reverting. For instance, the edits today to the Scotland article to include a part about the Lockerbie bombing, giving its significance to the Scottish and UK history as it remains the deadliest attack on UK soil, has been reverted, and I struggle to understand your reasons as to why none of this is worthy of being mentioned in the article? You stated it is too much context, so why not be a Wikipedian who helps and contribute rather than full on reverting? Similarly, why not fix the headings rather than revert fully, as I felt the inclusion of key moments of Scottish history such as the Treaty of Union and devolution would make readers navigate their way round the article much more easily.

I trust you read my message to you in good faith. It is not an attack on your reverts, but rather a question as to why you revert the entirety of the edits rather than help to fix.

Goodreg3 (talk) 15:43, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I have come nowhere near the vast bulk of your edits. Maybe I should but I do not relish the prospect.


 * As your queries regard the article, you should post there but I'll reply here briefly. If you make significant changes to an article and much of it is evidently detrimental, little or none of it actively beneficial, the easiest way for another editor to improve the article is to revert it to its previous state. I do not doubt the good faith of your edits but, having been familiar with them for some time, they are often characterised by pointless foutering about to establish your apparent idiosyncratic perception of neatness. I am not prepared to expend the considerable time required to sort the wheat from the chaff in such a sweeping edit, particularly when all that is apparent is chaff. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:13, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth and, I'll confess, to my surprise, these recent changes not only are not to the detriment of the article but seem either neutral or actively beneficial. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:51, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Is this...
..him? . Seems to pass the duck test. 10mmsocket (talk) 20:23, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Nice to see you back. I'd been wondering too. One to watch. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:59, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Agreed. 10mmsocket (talk) 07:21, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Am sure now and also at User:5.151.120.138 and User:5.151.120.141. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:15, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

The .138 IP sock has been active again, including today. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:08, 28 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Good catch. I'll try to be more observant. 10mmsocket (talk) 16:29, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks like is back online today. Thoughts? 10mmsocket (talk) 22:40, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Well-spotted. I've reverted the easy fixes but I'm going to have to leave any further action for now. Worth putting in an WP:SPI, if you're so inclined, per WP:QUACK. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:56, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

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