User talk:Myfishes

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Pharonic Emperors
Hi, I just noticed your restorations of the 'Pharoah' title to various Roman Emperor (Julio-Claudian) infoboxes, and as I've done a fair bit of work on the Imperial cult of ancient Rome, I thought I'd offer what litle I can remember of this stuff. It's a pretty minor, rather hollow title for a Roman emperor; more an honorific than an office. It wasn't refused, but nor was it officially adopted. No emperor governed Egypt directly. "Real" Pharoahs lived in Egypt, not Rome. The dynastic continuity claim relies on the pretence that everything was what it had always been, and Egypt would outlast any of its ruling dynasties, native or foreign. Definitely worth a footnote and pic., but I really don't think "Pharoah" merits a place in the infobox. Haploidavey (talk) 14:12, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I was following a recent trend of reconsidering the importance of the Thirty-fourth Dynasty of Egypt. I suppose the reason that there has been a reconsideration in recent years is due to the importance it had in Egypt itself. While that was only one portion of the Empire, it was a part of the Empire that had an immense history that had to be accommodated with the adoption of all kinds of imagery, titles and the adoption of new names, even if these names were only used by adherents to Egyptian religions. Gregory S. Dundas is part of this reconsideration and he says "Contrary to earlier thinking, recent studies now make clear that the Egyptian protocols and royal names of the emperors indicate a considerable break with tradition. Signs that Augustus had a hand in establishing the new rules are unmistakable." This shows that while many Emperors were not formally crowned as Pharaohs, the issue of their "Pharaohisation" was important to them and the Egyptian people. I suppose, what it comes down to for me is that while their role as Pharaoh was only one role among many, and not even the most important role, if Augustus, Tiberius, etc. had been only Pharaohs, their role as Pharaoh would be considered important enough to give them a wiki page and an infobox showing their predecessors and successors in this role. Dundas has shown that Augustus' role as a Pharaoh was not only deeply important to the Egyptians, but to Augustus as well. I think that is what makes it worthy of an infobox. talk 15:51, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Thank you for a very cogent reply (or riposte, more like). I won't respond in full, yet, because I think I should first read the sources used to construct the 34th Dynasty article, and the condition of scholarship on the matter; my immediate response is "who needs infoboxes?" I dislike them intensely, mostly because they can't accomodate nuanced material in any form. That being so, this kind of information should be presented in a manner that provokes the "least surprise" in an average reader, and doesn't really need sourcing in the infobox, because its dealt with in the article itself. Boldly (or baldly) announcing Augustus as a Pharaoh in the infobox seems to be rather overdoing it, when it's definitely the lesser title (even if it really mattered to him). New perspectives on old stuff (revisionist), can be very challenging to evaluate; it can take years of argument and counter-argument, and we're just an encyclopedia, at the end of the day, following the majority. I'll certainly get back to at some point, likely sooner than later. Regards, Haploidavey (talk) 15:43, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I've been mulling over this between Uni work, and I was wondering if there might be a subsection for each Emperor that had a significant reign as Pharaoh of Egypt and that there might be an infobox there. I'd done some edits for the Clovis section where his disputed status as saint is discussed, and I put an infobox there and that seems to have worked. Perhaps a subsection would keep the surprise factor to a minimum, but also would also allow for a representation of the sense of continuity that the 34th Dynasty had in the eyes of many at the time and in recent historiography. The infobox would include data explained in more detail in the actual subsection. In this section, the iconography and names they adopted for the purpose of their Pharaonic rule could be included along with whatever achievements and advances happened in Egypt. Let me know what you think... talk 11:30, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

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