User talk:Mzajac/2022

Merchandise giveaway nomination

 * Thank you. That is very cool. —Michael Z. 15:03, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

How we will see unregistered users
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18:12, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!

 * I’m glad it worked out. I had just been looking at the source a few days ago, and it happened to provide a broad summary suitable for the infobox, if not perfect (it has a lot more detail, too). —Michael Z. 14:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Reverted move
Hello, you might be interested in being made aware of this edit. Super  Ψ   Dro  18:00, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Article s6 (init)
Good morning Mzajac. This article s6 (init) is as a draft, I think it should be published because it is relevant to the world of operating systems. Thank you very much. --Rstmnq1000 (talk) 02:57, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, User:Rstmnq1000. I’m not well versed with the subject. I suggest you post a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computer science to find someone who is. (If I were evaluating this, I’d determine whether whether the references are really good WP:reliable sources.) —Michael Z. 03:23, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

AE enforcement
As I promised earlier, I opened a topic at Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:24, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Minsk agreements
I understand that you are trying to cite Putin's comments, but you really should not insert TASS citations into articles at all, as you did at Minsk agreements. Please try and find a reliable source for this statement. Furthermore, I think you might be aware that TASS itself says nothing about Putin's claims being 'false'... RGloucester — ☎ 20:02, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, user:RGloucester. WP:RSP tells us “Editors consider TASS fairly reliable for statements of fact as stated by the Russian government.” I figured the absence of genocide is WP:BLUESKY as long as there is no evidence of it in WP:RS. Perhaps the words “false accusation” ought to link to 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis to support the notion. Thanks. —Michael Z. 20:45, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I added said link. —Michael Z. 20:47, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment
Hi, there is currently a requested move at Talk:Odessa that you may be interested in since you previously discussed renaming the article. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 10:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Premature closure of discussion
I've undone your premature closure of the discussion at WT:WikiProject Ukraine: If you still believe closure of this discussion is warranted (and I'm not saying it isn't warranted), please make a request at Closure requests, and allow a disinterested editor to be the one to perform the closure. Thanks. Mathglot (talk) 03:15, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Your closure reason is invalid; not every Talk page discussion is a proposal for a specific fix to a specific article, some discussions are brainstorming among interested editors, in order to develop consensus about some one or another point which would improve an article, at which point a proposal might be made. A discussion that possibly affects many articles, is entirely appropriate for a WP:WikiProject, and WP:WikiProject Ukraine in particular is a highly appropriate venue to discuss the question. The discussion should not be unilaterally shut down, while there are still editors interested in responding to it.
 * 2) You are WP:INVOLVED, and have no standing to close this, or to shut down active discussion on a topic that is apparently of interest to other editors. Furthermore, your comments in the discussion clearly show that you have a strong opinion about the point being discussed; all the more reason to be the very last person to unilaterally close it.
 * I have opinions about a lot of things, but I didn’t see any points leading to any concrete changes. But okay, have it your way, if you see the value that I missed. —Michael Z. 03:31, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

FAR for National emblem of Belarus
I have nominated National emblem of Belarus for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 17:30, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Chokha discussion
Hello,

A discussion page for chokha was started. I did make a reply to your comment. I was wondering how to make the discussion going so we can come to a conclusion on the page title. I did provide sources and everything is visible on the discussion page. Cherkezy (talk) 10:25, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Azov Battalion
I have started a discussion in which you may care to comment at [] Cheers Elinruby (talk) 00:28, 21 March 2022 (UTC) Elinruby (talk) 00:39, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Russo-Ukrainian War (disambiguation)


A tag has been placed on Russo-Ukrainian War (disambiguation) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G14 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a disambiguation page which either
 * disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
 * disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
 * is an orphaned redirect with a title ending in "(disambiguation)" that does not target a disambiguation page or page that has a disambiguation-like function.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the. Qwerfjkl talk  20:52, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Ideology
Hey, thank you for your contributions to the articles related with Russian invasion of Ukraine and WikiProject Ukraine in general. I would like to ask you to contribute to this page: Russian fascism (ideology) as it appears to be quite tough for many users to make it nice and neat. It has been also softly deleted (redirected) and I think it need more experienced users to be involded. Maybe you could find more English sources to make the article look more encyclopedic and neutral. Best --IgorTurzh (talk) 11:10, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

New administrator activity requirement
22:53, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Cyrillic
Template:Cyrillic has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Izno (talk) 16:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: List of damaged cultural sites during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been accepted
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Archiving notice
Hey! During your moving of Talk:Russian separatist forces in Donbas, you forgot to update the archive location. All you need to do is adjust the  parameter in the   template to the new page name. Don't worry, I've fixed this for you. Just keep this in mind if you move a page in the future. Thanks! Aidan9382 (talk) 16:43, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for May 21
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Armies of Kievan Rus and its successors, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Rus.

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Your submission at Articles for creation: 2022 bombing of Lviv (May 24)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Doric Loon was:

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Nomination of Atrocities in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Atrocities in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Atrocities in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. -- Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she&#124;they&#124;xe) 21:47, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

T-80UM2
Hello. Do you have some text from Steven Zaloga about Black Eagle and its history? MankubusDoom (talk) 09:23, 11 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @MankubusDoom My books are older, so probably not. Will get back to you if I can find anything. —Michael Z. 15:44, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * i found that zaloga writes differrent thjings in 2000-s book and in 2009-s book about T-80UM2. in 2000 he writes that T-80um2 have ERA Drozd-1 and have plane to upgrade this model by ERA Drozd-2, but in 2009 he writes that t-80um2 have drozd-2 since 1997. MankubusDoom (talk) 13:26, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Kaliningrad Oblast
Please join. Xx236 (talk) 10:21, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Battle of Odesa
Hi Mzajac, Battle of Odesa should be the disambiguation and Battle of Odesa (disambiguation) the redirect. Could you switch them? Thanks, Leschnei (talk) 16:40, 22 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @Leschnei, thanks. Will do. —Michael Z. 16:50, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Pro-Russian socks
Hi Mzajac. You've been active in this topic area for a while, I was wondering if you might have any knowledge you could share about any longer-term (or maybe just since Feb 24) Pro-Russian socks. I've started an investigation against one, but I'm sure that I haven't properly identified the master, if you have time I would very much appreciate your help.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:33, 25 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @Ermenrich, I’d love to help. Strongly non-NPOV anti-Ukrainian comments and edits are mostly drive-by anons and registered editors. I’ve been frustrated by multiple editors that push similar edits with a variety of different POVs in articles surrounding the Holodomor, but I have no evidence whether they’re in good faith or coordinated. I have no idea how to actually identify socks in any of these (none are blatantly obvious). —Michael Z. 18:47, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've been amazed by the number of well-established editors (apparently resident in Western countries as well) who seem to be regurgitating Kremlin propaganda on this site... Anyway, the editor in question is . My initial SPI was unsuccessful and they sort of just dismissed out of hand the next one where I pointed out his use of an IP to make a #vote at AfD while he was being investigated for the first one. Anything about him look familiar to you? There's no way he's really a new editor.--Ermenrich (talk) 12:41, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Article is over 420Kb again
My suggestion would be to split the full Reactions section out of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article, into a split article called 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions. If you agree and try to do it, then I'll support. The article is getting much too large. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:16, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Donetsk PR
On Donetsk PR you made a source a failed source when the source is about the cities outside the Oblast that are controlled by the DPR, not the rest of the map. CubanoBoi (talk) 16:09, 31 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @CubanoBoi, I assume you mean the Kyiv Independent article that says “Regional authorities relayed how some residents of the occupied district of Rozovka were forced to vote in a sham referendum to join the illegitimate occupation government in Donetsk Oblast last week.”
 * I don’t believe the in-passing mention of a report that such a sham meeting took place, with no mention of any resulting legal effects, recognition, or claim by any state or quasi-state entity, attests to what the map represents: either the original legend “occupied territories since 2022,” nor my updated version “Russian advances within Donetsk Oblast since February 24,” based on an actual map legend in the actual other source cited.
 * Furthermore, the map doesn’t show the defunct Rozivka raion nor the current Polohy Raion, only what looks like a tiny colouring error in a corner of it.
 * I am really tired of the maps with their legends and sources in the DLNR articles being repeatedly fudged to create the fake image of country. There are dozens of maps in the news every day, but people keep trying to make up some separatist fantasy and make it stick. Enough. —Michael Z. 17:53, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see what looks like a glitch is actually a spot around the location of the village of Rozivka. Still doesn’t correspond to what an illegal assembly supposedly voted for, to what the map purports to show, nor what any reliable source has put on a map. —Michael Z. 18:03, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Dispute between users Mzajac and Seryo93 (identified by user Jargo Nautilus)
Hi Michael Z (Mzajac). I would like to inform you that I have informally (or quasi-formally) initiated a conduct dispute between you and @Seryo93. It also involves me as well, because there is the possibility that Seryo93 might take actions against me directly. In any case, I've decided to strike-through the comment made by Seryo93 on Talk:Russia wherein he misquotes you as saying something that you didn't say, and ironically charges you with saying something that is untrue. Indeed, it is Seryo93's own comment that is objectively untrue, hence the need to strike-through Seryo93's comment. I have contacted Seryo93 about the matter so that he knows the exact reason for my actions. The talk discussion is here: User talk:Seryo93. The exact diff of my strike-through on Talk:Russia is here - 1. Thanks and regards, JN. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 00:26, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

"War in Donbass" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect War in Donbass and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 August 4 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Waltermaid (talk) 13:00, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Removing DPR references
Can you expain on what grounds you remove the information concerning the control of the city. Donetsk is currently controlled by Donetsk PR which is a hard fact. Why remove this reference? 62.122.109.139 (talk) 10:03, 7 August 2022 (UTC)


 * In which article? Please link to the diff if you can, so I know what you are referring to. —Michael Z. 13:24, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Here Donetsk and probably some others like here Mariupol. Donetsk is currently not under Ukrainian jurisdiction. That was reflected in the infobox. Donetsk is now the capital of Donetsk PR which is a breakway state. 62.122.109.159 (talk) 17:12, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, do you mean this change? Yes, I did that on a great number of articles. The previous infobox data was incorrect:
 * Regardless of the labels, entering that data set up an incorrect hierarchy, indicating that the “DNR” was a subdivision of Ukraine.
 * As a result, articles had automatically generated short descriptions like “City in Donetsk People's Republic, Ukraine.”
 * The infobox is meant to relate stable accepted information, like the internationally recognized country a place is in, and not show what military force occupies it as of yesterday and possibly no longer tomorrow.
 * Most of the affected places are referred to in WP:reliable sources as either in the state of being “Russian controlled,” if occupied since February 24, or “separatist controlled since 2014.” They do not refer to “Donetsk, DNR,” or “Donetsk, de facto in the DNR” or anything like that.
 * It was a misuse of the infobox. —Michael Z. 18:53, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * yes, but isn't that necessary for Wikipedia to reflect the changes that directly affect the national policies. Ukraine lost control over the certain areas, the DPR was recognized by Russia and two other counties I think.So regarding this city as part of Ukraine is misleading to say the least. Maybe it should follow the example of Simferopol so the country is shown as disputed. 62.122.109.135 (talk) 21:08, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It’s not misleading at all.
 * I suggest you see if you can find consensus in an appropriate talk page. Probably Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine, since this would affect scores of articles on places in Ukraine. —Michael Z. 23:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

"2022 evacuation of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republics" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect 2022 evacuation of the Donetsk People& and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 August 20 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:45, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Moskovske?
Moskovs'ke? Xx236 (talk) 07:42, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @Xx236 what about it? —Michael Z. 15:09, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Should it be written with ' ?? Xx236 (talk) 06:31, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah. Generally no. We use the Ukrainian National system – as outlined at WP:UKR and described in romanization of Ukrainian – which drops the soft sign ь.
 * (In articles about linguistics, the international scholarly system is sometimes used, but it is somewhat different with x, c, č, ju, ja, instead of kh, ts, ch, yu/iu, ia/ia, etc.) —Michael Z. 22:03, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

POV pushing
Pov pushing to claim that Russia's occupation have ended continues. Panam2014 (talk) 16:36, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

File:Russian Occupation of Kherson Oblast.svg
Hello! You requested that this map should show surrounding areas, and I was wondering what you think of this layout. Thanks!  Physeters ✉ 21:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Replied at commons:File talk:Russian Occupation of Kherson Oblast.svg —Michael Z. 23:31, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I've added the labels and removed all parts of Mykolaiv Oblast. They had been put there because back in early September, the Kherson Administration absorbed the duties of the Mykolaiv Administration, which claimed control of the two raions added to the map. However, in this current moment, they do nothing but confuse.  Physeters ✉ 00:22, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Wow, thanks. This is good.
 * I think the labels should say Mykolaiv Oblast and Zaporizhzhia Oblast, and have a matching one for Kherson Oblast. On their own they are the proper names of cities. You could abbreviate “Obl.”
 * (Dnipropetrovsk is a special case, its main city was renamed Dnipro during decommunization, but the oblast can’t be renamed until the constitution is amended).
 * Thanks for listening and all the work. —Michael Z. 00:29, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You are welcome. I put "Dnipro." because I couldn't get Dnipropetrovsk to look any good as the text had to be too small. I'll add the Oblast suffixes in the next update. Thanks for your interest in making the map better!  Physeters ✉ 00:33, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll also add "Autonomous Republic of" Crimea.  Physeters ✉ 00:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * “Dnipro. Obl.” would be an improvement, if that works.
 * And yes, A.R.C. —Michael Z. 00:40, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

DPR and LPR
Why Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic ended Anon-ymousTrecen (talk) 04:28, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Russia reasessment
Russia has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Xx236 (talk) 08:09, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

"Largest seizure attempted since World War II"
Regarding this edit, where the largest seizure attempted since World War II was added, did you mean the largest in general or specifically in Europe? The Reuters source says "the biggest annexation in Europe since World War Two" though I haven't really looked into other annexations but noticed Annexation of Western Sahara if this counts. Regards. Mellk (talk) 21:27, 7 October 2022 (UTC)


 * @Mellk, my mistake. Yes, it was based on that source, and should reflect what it says. I’ll correct it if not done yet. Thanks. —Michael Z. 22:37, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Are you telepath?
You literally but I still didn't get how these templates work. Don't you want to also join here? 85.238.103.38 (talk) 00:41, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Republic of Crimea
Hi

We should also change infobox for Republic of Crimea. Panam2014 (talk) 18:23, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

"Kyiv regime" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Kyiv regime and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 25 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. QueenofBithynia (talk) 20:20, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Encyclopedia_of_Ukraine
I've started a section, perhaps you'd like to expand it with other academic sources. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:59, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

ANI notice board
Regarding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#List_of_Nazi_monuments_in_Canada

As the person who started the article, it would have been courteous to let me know that you started an WP:ANI topic. Please take this as a complaint that you did not extend that courtesy. (talk) 16:54, 25 November 2022 (UTC)


 * @CT55555 I hadn’t considered it. You’re right, and I apologize for my oversight. —Michael Z. 17:20, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Appology accepted. Wishing you all the best, despite our differences of opinion at the AFD. CT55555 (talk) 18:40, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

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Bolding Konigsberg in the lead of Kaliningrad
Hello Mzajac! I noticed that you reverted my edit of reverting an IP user bolding "Konigsberg" (I can't easily type special characters) in the lead of Kaliningrad. I decided to read the relevant MOS and I'm not sure if the MOS supports the bolding of "Konigsberg" as MOS:BOLDALTNAMES says "Only the first occurrence of the title and significant alternative names (which should usually also redirect to the article) are placed in bold" (italics not mine). The main issue I have is that "Konigsberg" does not redirect to Kaliningrad, but instead has it's own article, and the MOS doesn't seem to say what to do in this case. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 15:43, 2 December 2022 (UTC)


 * @Blaze Wolf, I will self revert for now (also because the name is a link), but maybe there should be a discussion about this. In my view, these articles are about two (chronologically separated) aspects of one subject that has had two names. See, for example, Istanbul, but contrast with Constantinople and Byzantium. —Michael Z. 15:55, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Alright sounds good. I figured I would ask you first instead of just reverting since the MOS didn't exactly make it clear what to do in this case. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 15:56, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
This post is quite clearly a straw man argument. In responding, I did WP:AGF despite this. A strawman argument is a logical fallacy: A fallacy is reasoning that is logically invalid, or that undermines the logical validity of an argument. Your response (the first paragraph) not only represents a statement as a quote when no such statement was made but it is not even a reasonable paraphrase of what was actually said. It is another strawman argument. Given the first post referred to herein, I cannot see how this can be ascribed to a misunderstanding; however, if it is, I don't see that there would be a problem with redacting the first paragraph, notwithstanding that you might make a substitution. On the other hand, I would note that WP:STRAWMAN statements intentionally made are considered inherently against the civility policy. Either way, I would believe it appropriate to redact (strike through) the first para of your most recent post. I would also note that (per WP:P&G) it would be inappropriate to make edits to that paragraph at this time. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:34, 6 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Replied there. —Michael Z. 14:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Michael, I believe you are doing this again - ie talking to only part of a statement (out of context) rather than the full statement in which I said: While Crimea is disputed territory in the greater scheme of things, it was nonetheless held by Russia preinvasion. [emphasis added] I did not sneak anything in nor did I imply that the Russian claim was legitimate or had been legitimised. I was simply pointing out that being in Crimea is not so clear cut and [i]t is certainly not a clear line that an Iranian presence in Crimea constitutes "boots on the ground" and an act of aggression. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)


 * @Cinderella157, I replied to a statement that is absolutely wrong, in that context or out of it. Iranian illegal military presence within Ukraine’s borders is literally boots on the ground. Its participation in the invasion on the side of the aggressor state is clear involvement in the conflict and complicity in Russia’s crime of aggression (and may even constitute direct aggression according to the UN’s definition, para. 3[b]). —Michael Z. 00:25, 23 October 2022 (UTC)


 * My statement that: While Crimea is disputed territory in the greater scheme of things, it was nonetheless held by Russia preinvasion. is factually correct in every respect. And it is not a a clear line that an Iranian presence in Crimea constitutes "boots on the ground" and an act of aggression.  To argue that it is would be WP:OR - until we have authoritative sources (ie the UN) declaring that it is (as we have for Belarus?).  Please dial back the WP:BATTLEGROUNDy rhetoric and refrain from WP:STRAWMAN type arguments that misrepresent the full context of what was said. One can have a robust discussion within the reasonable bounds of civility. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:54, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

In the most recent discussion on this subject, you make the statement: I think you are wikilawyering by creating your own non-consensus interpretation of the guideline that you foxiest mentioned here, to prevent perfectly normal and reasonable information from being placed in the infobox. Earlier, you stated: That a lot of dancing around the language. Dancing around language is pretty much pettifogging but it was not stated as a personalised direct allegation regarding conduct. You are now making a personalised direct allegation regarding conduct and bad faith (see WP:AOBF) that can be construed as a personal attack because it has been personalised. You should take the matter to a drama board and substantiate your allegation or redact the statement. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:50, 5 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Pointing out your unsound argument is not a personal attack.
 * I should go to a drama board?! —Michael Z. 15:08, 5 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Pointing out an unsound argument is not a personal attack. Making a personalised (using you) direct allegation regarding conduct and bad faith is. Drama board = ANI. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:18, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I don’t think you are arguing in bad faith. I think your argument is unsound. I think you are applying an unreasonably strict and narrow interpretation of the advice in the guidelines on more than one count, and you don’t have consensus on your side. It is not a disciplinary matter, but it is needless obstruction of working on the article. —Michael Z. 22:24, 5 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I might make similar observations with respect to the arguments made to support inclusion. The distinction is that I address the argument not the person - ie the argument is unsound not your argument is unsound, which is personalised. One should avoid pejorative statements and definitely avoid personalising them (eg ... you are wikilawyering ...) unless you are actually making an allegation - because that is what it is. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:43, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
 * You have some nerve, after accusing me of “pettifogging.” —Michael Z. 01:43, 6 December 2022 (UTC)


 * No, what I said was: such a case [the argument] would appear to fall to WP:PETTIFOGGING. This was after you having stated: That a lot of dancing around the language and such a statement would pretty much be a definition of pettifogging.  The distinction is when one ceases to address the argument and starts to address the person. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:08, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Such an argument would appear to fall into the category of horse shit. —Michael Z. 04:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Michael, one of us is a fenagling, pettifogging, wikilawyering bastard and the RfC will reveal which. If it is me, and you undertake to reciprocate, I will stand butt naked at my front gate and send you a photo (back view and without mooning) as proof and offer an apology here explicitly stating that I am the person so described. In the chance that the RfC has "no consensus" (versus a decision one way or the other) I undertake to offer an apology here "for any angst caused" (again, reciprocated). Should you decline this challenge, the honourable thing is to reddact the offending sentence in full (I think you are wikilawyering by creating your own non-consensus interpretation ...) with a hyperlink to this section of your talk page. Cinderella157 (talk) 14:14, 6 December 2022 (UTC)


 * No interest in any of that. —Michael Z. 17:14, 6 December 2022 (UTC)