User talk:Naraht/Archive 13

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Alpha Delta Theta (social)
Their Tau chapter was at Minnesota. 1931-34. It died five years before the merger with Phi Mu. Jax MN (talk) 18:09, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I did a little work, adding an info box, pin (the Infobox template doesn't allow me to name it as a pin, only a crest), and I added the color swatches. Would you mind taking a look at the References section? I added a template at the bottom to show the standard reference syntax, but you have a couple of other notes there, and the styles of that section don't match.  --However you want to do it.  Thanks! Jax MN (talk) 18:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Pin should be moved down in the article if we can find the actual crest. In terms of colors, they may have changed during the years. See the contradiction at https://www.google.com/search?q=%22alpha+delta+theta%22+turquoise . The Baird's one can probably be dropped in favor of specifics. The Lamb and Butterfield can be made into standard references if we clean them up (and use template:rp)Naraht (talk) 19:12, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with you about the crests, whenever we can find them. I didn't see the conflict on the Google search link you sent - it appeared as if this was either a Christian service sorority of that name, or the medical fraternity, some other group with similar letters.  But I did refine the search, and found this image via Pinterest: Alpha Delta Theta pin, via pinterest, accessed 30 May 2020. I could replace my scan... Jax MN (talk) 19:47, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Wonder if Baird's has the crest. Sorry, I clipped too much. See https://www.google.com/search?q=%22alpha+delta+theta%22+turquoise&sxsrf=ALeKk00UhuDweoi3EOixCK9sli7ecNPetg:1590870451141&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjgr_6gttzpAhXChHIEHUMVCA0Q_AUoAXoECA8QCQ&biw=1372&bih=762 among the search on books.google.com. I don't know what the rules are on photographs of things which are no longer under copyright, I think that they are still problematic.Naraht (talk) 20:28, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I went to that URL again, tried to adjust it even, and only got a set of search outcomes that include some black and white books with Delta Gamma magazines. As to your second point, I tend to use the workaround that a single JPB, low-res from the original, is allowed as an identifier of an organization. --Even if after 1925 or whatever the current copyright cutoff is. Jax MN (talk) 20:49, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

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The Boulès
Hello, ...

I noticed that you reverted a number of my edits. In the edit summary, you said that my inclusion of the Boulès - and I would imagine all of the other upperclass Black American Greek organizations - in the category for Black elite was inappropriate due to the fact that they were groups and their inclusion wasn't referenced. I must admit that I'm confused by this.

One of the cited references for the page on the Boulès - and I would imagine the ones for a number of other Black Greeks as well - is Our Kind Of People. I've recently read that book, and in it it is explicitly stated that the Boulès are a cornerstone of the African-American upperclass. What other reference is required? Besides, I wasn't even aware that categories needed to be referenced to begin with.

As to including groups, I contend that that is in order as well. The Boulès and the top college frats are essentially the Black equivalent of Skull and Bones. If you were talking about the wider American upperclass, you couldn't avoid mentioning that society... Any more than you could the Bullingdon Club in Britain. Leaving them out of a category on Black elites is a glaring omission.

Anyway, I look forward to your response. Here's hoping that this finds you well.

Yours sincerely, O.ominirabluejack (talk) 21:20, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for writing back. A few points, which I hope will help point out why I deleted the category. While I am not a member of an NPHC Fraternity or Sorority (and White), I have become somewhat familiar with the culture as a representative to a Service Fraternity at Howard University and other research in regards to working on Greek Letter Organizations on Wikipedia for over a decade.


 * 1) Only some of the NPHC Fraternities and Sororities are included. Including APhiA and AKA (for example) and not Iota Phi Theta and Sigma Gamma Rho would require a significant reference in that regard.
 * 2) For the Greek Letter Organizations that I checked that were included, the word Elite was nowhere in the article *other* than in the Category name. And "Our Kind of People" is not referenced at all in the Alpha Phi Alpha article (I just checked).
 * 3) So the question is whether the Reference on page 14 of Our Kind of People is good enough. If it is, it needs to be referenced and attached to text in each of the respective articles and then the category can be restored, I guess.Naraht (talk) 22:05, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, ...

Firstly, I need to express my appreciation for you acknowledging your level of familiarity where the Black Greeks are concerned (in truth, it probably trumps mine... All I've got is a father who's a Howard alum and who MAY have belonged to one of the frats while there).

We all want for these pages to be as truthful as possible. As a result, I will hold off on adding the reference and restoring the category links since you still have reservations. If I manage to allay them, I will then proceed.

Be well in the meantime,

O.ominirabluejack (talk) 22:22, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

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List of Massachusetts Institute of Technology fraternities, sororities, and ILGs
I'm about ready to replace the old mainspace article with an entirely new one, which corrects many of the omissions and failings of the previous. In the discussion for deletion there has been surprisingly little comment... Any tips? I thought I should also delete several of the duplicate sections on the Talk page, where I was (probably incorrectly) using it as a sort of sandbox. On my own sandbox I've worked up a new intro section and have cleaned up the list portion further. I found some terrific graphics to port over. But I wonder what I should do about the duplicate sections on the Talk page now... Also, Naraht, I'd ask if you would determine if some of the warnings at the top ought now be removed, as they have been addressed. As a matter of form, WP wants these to be removed by a disinterested party.

Finally, after doing all this work I don't want EoRdE6 to delete the page. He/she has not addressed the substantive issues I raised, and just continues to pick away, in what appears to be an unnecessary and Quixotic quest to rid the world of this single article. I don't see what motivates him.


 * Link: Talk:List of Massachusetts Institute of Technology fraternities, sororities, and ILGs
 * Jax MN (talk) 16:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * following closely.Naraht (talk) 04:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you familiar with the Wikiproject Fraternities and Sororities group? Is there a place to ask them to weigh in on the AfD?  Not much traffic, not many voting either way. I also see that the Dartmouth page is listed as a "A" grade example.  I'm not convinced.  I like the Cornell style better. Jax MN (talk) 05:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Former members of the North American Interfraternity Conference


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Found this.
Do I have this right? I read the letters on this pin as Shin Bet Aleph... But the descriptor on the item for sale says it is a Phi Omega Pi pin (or earlier, for Achoth?). I think that is incorrect, or the pin description on the Phi Omega Pi page is incomplete. Vintage Sorority pin for sale. Is this an image we can use anywhere? Jax MN (talk) 01:03, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Phi Omega Pi is the only organization that I know of with that sort of irregular pentagon in its batch, see https://www.ebay.com/itm/14K-Gold-with-pearls-and-sapphire-Phi-Omega-Pi-Sorority-Pin-Merged-with-Delta-/262712071277 for example. So the idea of this being an Achoth pin is quite reasonable. Given the fact that *that* pin went left center down, my *guess* is that the Hebrew went to the reverse of that, so either Nun or possibly Kaf in the upper right, Sin/Shin below and Aleph in the Upper left. The Upper right is *very* unlikely to be a Bet, Bet *always* has a tail at the lower right, only Nun and Kaf are equal top and bottom, Nun is narrower. So Yes, I believe it, but I don't feel we've got enough proof. :(Naraht (talk) 01:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Certainly was hebrew before 1921, so I'm feeling even better about it. https://books.google.com/books?id=1R7PAAAAMAAJ&q=achoth+pentagon&dq=achoth+pentagon&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixh-j-mrXrAhW6oXIEHSHIBZkQ6AEwAHoECAEQAg Naraht (talk) 01:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * BINGO! Should have *started* with Baird's... https://books.google.com/books?id=j1rOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA450  "Originally, the fraternity, in accordance with the Masonic traditions, was called Achoth, a Hebrew name meaning sister, and the pin bore the Hebrew characters Shin, Nun, Aleph, the initial letters of the organization's motto, but in 1920 the letters were changed to Greek, and in October of 1922, the name was changed to correspond with the letters on the pin. The chapters formerly were named in the order of the Hebrew alphabet, but with the change of name, they automatically took the Greek alphabet." Looks like a good chunk of the 1923 Baird's entry should be added.
 * I don't mind grabbing the graphic and adding it to WP. We normally use crests, but this is useful as a secondary type of identifier. Thoughts? Jax MN (talk) 01:45, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd grab both the old one with the hebrew and the new one with the greek. Not like this article is going to be viewed as too long. :)Naraht (talk) 01:49, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I added the text from Baird's 10th and the JPG of the old Achoth pin. However, I didn't readily see the one with the Greek letters.  Didn't look too hard.  Jax MN (talk) 04:57, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/phi-omega-pi-now-delta-zeta-14k-seed-1802471360 is probably the best I can find.Naraht (talk) 11:25, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Beta Phi Alpha
Question about some of the closing categories you've added. I just did a format review of Beta Phi Alpha, adding an infobox, correcting formatting, adding references and a badge JPG. At the bottom of the article, you previously had added the category for 1919 establishments in California and Student organizations established in 1919. The predecessor to Beta Phi Alpha had originally formed in 1909. Ought we use that year? Baird's gives them that start year, instead of the year of incorporation under the new name. Jax MN (talk) 16:05, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , That can get tricky. When was it incorporated?Naraht (talk) 12:54, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , I cannot tell from the references. I just clarified in the article that Beta Phi Alpha continued to view 8 May, 1909 as its founders day, even while moving slowly to embrace national ambitions.  Incorporation probably came with the reforms during 1919, but of course, the previous decade they may have needed a legal structure to sign housing leases. May require a check of government records. Jax MN (talk) 15:52, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

New article
This was a fun project to research: Sigma Phi Sigma. Any missing categories, or cleanup you can see? Jax MN (talk) 05:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * First two things...


 * 1) Ref 14 is unclear. Is it referring to an article in another ref?
 * 2) 1927 Baird's has more information, will add it.Naraht (talk) 12:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I cleaned up Ref #14. Jax MN (talk) 15:59, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

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I don't understand...
Good morning. I noted that you removed the category from List_of_Jewish_fraternities_and_sororities. I don't understand this change. That page lists many organizations that have either merged or gone dormant. While yes, some on that page are still thriving, others fit the category perfectly. So isn't pointing to the page with the 'defunct' category reasonable? I think it is an effective grouping for research. Jax MN (talk) 15:13, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Some but not certainly not all (not even sure a majority). Feel free to make redirects from the entries that are inactive and put them in the category.Naraht (talk) 22:03, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

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Alpha Epsilon
Thanks for the additional dates. A couple of items - would you check the reference link you added at Alpha Epsilon? It didn't work when I tried to pull it up. Also, I wonder if it shows an Alpha Beta chapter and a Beta Beta chapter. Both of these would seem to fit the progression, but weren't listed among active chapters.

Also, would you look at Delta Pi's discussion for deletion and vote to Keep, if you feel so inclined? Someone included it as an AfD, which I don't think is warranted. I explain on its Talk page. Jax MN (talk) 12:59, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Achoth
I noticed that Baird's 1920 has a Northwestern University chapter of Achoth / Phi Omega Pi listed as its He chapter, forming in 1913 and marked as closing in 1914. It may have later been re-established. But I do not know where this fits in regarding the Washington chapter, or in chapter order. Do you have a better sense of this?

Is the Hebrew He the same as Hay? Jax MN (talk) 16:30, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I found something like 4 different sources with different orders and different entries for that group of chapters, including some that disagreed on what the schools actually are. I think I included them all as references.


 * Yes, the Hebrew letter He is the same as Hay. The spelling of the Hebrew letters by Achoth/OES/Masons isn't current standard, but not really a problem. It looks like a consistent transliteration, so I'm just fine with leaving it.Naraht (talk) 18:07, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

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Kappa Alpha Order
I just ran across an AfD discussion you participated in, regarding the list of chapters of Kappa Alpha Order. I know you voted to keep it. It appears to be the only fraternity left among the NIC and NPC groups that doesn't have its own chapter list page. What is the story here? Why did they delete it? It's such a waste of time to have to rebuild it. You didn't grab a copy of the page before it was lost, did you? Jax MN (talk) 19:28, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Grabbed at https://en.ever ybodywiki.com/List_of_Kappa_Alpha_Order_chapters Not even close to the only NIC group without a chapter page, none of the seven newest members have them (I just picked a group less likely), but given that Tau Phi Sigma only has 7 chapters (at least that's what the table says). Basically, the issue was that the page consisted *only* of chapter name and location split into active and inactive. Frankly, if we can add the year and table-ize it, that's probably enough to justify restoring.Naraht (talk) 19:54, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

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Philippines
Good afternoon - Regarding the List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines, there's been some activity by someone attempting to add a group called Alpha Phi Chi, which had previously been rejected. It doesn't have an article, thus is assumed not NOTIBLE, but they persist. It's on the page now, and incidentally, out of alphabetical order. The editor is either anonymous or no longer has a valid account. They'd tried several variations of the name, in article link form, clearly not understanding how name links work. But that may simply mean they are a newbie editor.

It brings up a question, though. On this list, is there an overriding reason not to allow red link articles as a tracker? It appears that this group exists, but that it simply does not have a WP article. I personally don't mind listing groups with good potential for articles, as a tracker. On the list pages like this... Jax MN (talk) 17:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, I just found this: Draft:Alpha Phi Chi Jax MN (talk) 17:43, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, a few things. First, I'm fine with dropping the non-collegiate ones (or moving to a new section). There are also well organized High School Fraternities (and possibly sororities) in the Philippines. Secondly, Please take a look at the way that it was in mid-2018 (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_fraternities_and_sororities_in_the_Philippines&oldid=856893079), user Drmies wanted it pared down to only those with articles. I'm actually planning to write Alpha Phi Beta. There are *many* GLOs in the Philippines that I seriously doubt could pass Notability, and the lack of school newspapers and such actually makes things worse. I've seen attempted additions to the list of organizations less than a year old with one chapter. It is *worse* than the addition of the Military Professionals to the list of Professional fraternities page. I do count myself as having a *slight* NNPOV, as a brother of Alpha Phi Omega, I want to see that one stay, but frankly any list of Fraternities in the Philippines with more than 10 items would include APO-Philippines.Naraht (talk) 22:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
 * That older list of Philippine fraternities was far larger than I would have assumed it would be. Were I to vote, I would prefer to list them all, with red links and notes if they are dormant, to spur some of the groups to write articles and find reliable sources. I also support the inclusion of ΑΦΩ- it makes sense to add the venerable service fraternity as well as law, engineering and medical fraternities. Casual readers would prefer to have all these listed in one place, even the locals, indicated as such.  This is what I am trying to do on the Fraternities and Sororities Watchlist, now up to 935 groups.  --Inclusion will help us reduce DAB issues and sift for edit improvements.
 * I figure there are three "categories", the ones with articles, the ones that have *any* secondary sources indicating that they exist and those that don't. There are *no* national councils, *no* equivalent to Baird's and many GLOs that are "community based" which means you won't even find any school listings for them. There is a difference between needing info and no proof of existence outside facebook, which many of the groups fell into. I've tried tracking down some of the groups, the effort isn't pretty. The only other real possibility of proof is whether they are registered with Securities and Exchange Commission (Philippines) which also includes the "company register" (the last column). If you want to change what's there, let's bring in DRMIES.Naraht (talk) 23:08, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Another issue is brewing for me, and I wondered your thoughts. The Divine 9, the most prominent NPHC fraternities and sororities, are by no means the only historically Black groups.  The list of these others winds on, and pretty quickly gets to groups like Iota Chi Kappa, (article now deleted as advertising), which is clearly just a vehicle for a Ms. Eboni Truss to sell books, real estate services and speaking fees.  Her use of a Greek letter name and tight control as its lone founder seems an offshoot of far too much focus on founders with elevated titles among the Black and Asian groups.  Even some of the Christian groups have adopted Greek letters more for convenience I think, rather than any serious interest in promoting Greek Life.  Yet I'm inclined to include many of these, the Black, Asian, and Christian groups - even when non-collegiate as was your complaint about some of the "military professional" groups.  It's too bad that so much bloat is allowed with the NPHC groups, whose WP articles can run five or ten times longer than other societies.  What I've settled on is that it is better to list them, noting that they are non-collegiate, in order to keep track of them.  The same issue came up for me a decade ago, wrestling with a list of Masonic grand lodges; the list of these on Wikipedia notes them by conference, so those that are merely profit-makers (ill-formed and illegitimate to most Masons) stand out negatively in comparison...  THIS is why I favor keeping the red link articles.  Any thoughts on the matter? Jax MN (talk) 22:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep track of them on a page on a project or a talk page, that's fine. Having many of these groups in Wikipedia lists with no references outside their own websites and facebook, *nope*. I don't consider myself a deletionist, but when it gets to the point where I'm doing the research as to whether or not a group should be in a listing page, *nope*.Naraht (talk) 23:08, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

New Page Patrol December Newsletter
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Capitalization discussion
You may be interested in this Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fraternities_and_Sororities Jax MN (talk) 15:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

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