User talk:Naraht/Archive 14

Great new reference
Naraht, I'd been in contact with Fran Becque, the national Historian from Pi Beta Phi and blogger. I believe you have also corresponded with her. After the 1991 editor of Baird's 20th died, his files went to a Delta Upsilon alum, Mr. Carroll Lurding, who has been laboriously sifting through collegiate yearbooks and other sources to collect updates to the file. I asked about a new version; Fran said that the 20th barely broke even, and an update would be a difficult sell: it would probably have to be in two volumes, with even smaller text. The two of them tried to give it to the NIC to manage, but Fran told me that group never really responded positively, and is too busy putting out fires. Helping Carroll, she was able to place the archive at the Student Life and Culture Archives at Illinois. I've been using it recently. It's extensive. It has a part time curator, and probably several other volunteers in addition to the work that Fran and Carroll do. I've sent Fran a couple pages of updates for it, and have alerted her to the work you and I and others are doing on the F&S Project. She remembered your communication.

Anyway, if you can use it, here's the main link to the archive... Baird's Manual Archive, at the University of Illinois Archives

I see you are working through a annoying proxy block. Best wishes with this. I will respond shortly on the matter of the Delta Beta Phi AfD request, on that page. I've been terribly busy with outside issues. Jax MN (talk) 04:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

User name
Is your user name a reference to the character from Star Trek novels and comic books? https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Dahai_Iohor_Naraht --Khajidha (talk) 21:35, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * yes. I have used it for more than 25 years and a handle.
 * Cool. --Khajidha (talk) 22:47, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Fraternity watchlist, and the Philippines
Another AfD has cropped up. I commented there; you might find it interesting. See Articles for deletion/Kappa Sigma (Philippines). Of course the Watchlist has several articles about Philippine (and Puerto Rican, and German...) fraternities, so prior to my comments, I did some additional research. For your convenience, here are the List pages with an extensive selection of Latino fraternities:

We've discussed before that that many once had Wikipedia pages, but these were deleted. Even as Stubs. The only residual traces are the redlinks for these pages, and when attempting to link to them, an alert pops up that they'd been previously deleted. At some point one of us can attempt to revive them. My attention has been on the US-based societies, but I dug in enough to confirm your earlier point that a flurry of these deletions came about in 2018, and was only stopped when someone began to argue that Philippine SEC registration conveys a level of authenticity. That made sense to me, and I therefore incorporated that rule in the project's rules for notability. --Subject to discussion, of course.
 * List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines
 * List of fraternities and sororities in Puerto Rico
 * Concilio Interfraternitario Puertorriqueño de la Florida
 * List of Latino Greek-letter organizations <--The table on this page has multiple errors that need cleanup. I plan to get to it.

In this particular AfD instance, the proposer slid in an "uncontested deletion" PROD, and was probably surprised when I objected, and (per the rules) deleted it. I provided a rationale for keeping it on its Talk page, as directed. But he/she persisted, and put it up for a formal debate. Such a waste of time.

This same person recently inserted a "citations needed" tag on a page I wrote, List of fraternities and sororities at the College of Wooster, which already has 110 references(!). An interesting campus, and I have no connection to it. Therefore all content on the page is from the noted references. I though he was playing a subtle joke, and reverted it, but he/she was serious. If this continues, I'll look into this editor further; I may file a harassment complaint. He wouldn't have noticed that Wooster page unless he was sifting through our project, or my personal efforts. I see no purpose in picking apart random, good articles like this and prefer a consistent, rules-based and methodical approach. Jax MN (talk) 21:19, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Kappa Sigma Philippines probably should go if we can't find anything else. I've seen groups that don't meet *any* standard of notability registered with the Philippine SEC. To put it mildly, I disagree with the addition. And almost *nothing* other than its existence is actually referenced. The google book is basically a copy of Wikipedia. I'm an inclusionist, but in its current state, it really has nothing other than SEC registration to go on. (And that would open up things to hundreds that only met that criteria) and the SEC verifies *nothing* when the registration happens.
 * On this, I don't speak Spanish, and hope that other editors would add references from publications or university websites in that language. It's why I kept them on the Project Watchlist, and have offered helpful To Do suggestions on their Talk pages. Regarding the Philippines generally, I don't have a dog in this fight.  As I understand it, some of the value of these inclusions (ΚΣ, ΑΤΩ, ΑΣΦ, even ΑΦΩ) are that they improve clarity for casual readers who think there is a connection between these societies and their US-based counterparts.  Also for groups that seek to form, and hope to find a combination of letters that aren't already being used.  Maybe the Philippine SEC registration is a sham...  It seemed a decent firewall to determine inclusion or not, where a tenth of the 300-or so societies were registered. I'd much prefer Filippino editors to work on this...
 * For the Philippine Fraternities it doesn't help and this is a *much* larger issue than Puerto Rico. Yes there are duplicates, and yes there relationships vary from completely bounded like Alpha Phi Omega to no relationship at all like "Alpha Tau Omega" (which was deliberate and which I have more completely unverifiable information on). But it isn't wikipedia's place to say anything other than to perhaps reference what the relationship is from the USA National website. None of these reasons are enough to keep an article just on that.Naraht (talk) 23:55, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As for the List of fraternities and sororities at the College of Wooster, at least half of the "References" are what I would call notes. For Example: "This is the Beta Tau chapter of ΔΦΑ." is *not* a reference, it is a note. I still find the request weird, but I certainly wouldn't count it as 110 references. I'll remove it as well.Naraht (talk) 22:18, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd used that syntax previously, and often. I'd thought through the issue and here is my rationale for writing them this way: I chose not to include chapter names in the visible list. These are non-controversial points, useful, and easily confirmed from the other references.  A citation for each is certainly possible but terribly, terribly redundant and would lead to reduced readability and clarity See WP:CITEKILL. Of course there is a function for a formal note and perhaps all of these should be transitioned over, but this would bloat these pages.  Jax MN (talk) 23:00, 25 January 2021 (UTC).
 * May I suggest REFGROUP?Naraht (talk) 23:55, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

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Persistent error
Hi Naraht. I cannot believe how often I make that specific typo, inserting a hyphen instead of a equals sign. Ugh. Thanks for correcting them. You can delete this comment once you see it. Jax MN (talk) 06:44, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

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Disambiguation link notification for March 15
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Alpha Sigma Alpha
Why did you revert my reformatting and cleanup of the List of Alpha Sigma Alpha chapters? The previous article had dozens and dozens of errors and omissions. Jax MN (talk) 20:56, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

SSM Japan
Hi,

With the recent SC ruling that SS couples can get alimony etc, recognizing them as domestic partnerships, do you think Japan should be light blue or medium blue on the map? DPs are normally med blue, but there are different conceptions of what a DP is, so I was hesitant to go that far.

— kwami (talk) 21:05, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * on which map?Naraht (talk) 14:18, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I changed the world maps for LGBT laws and SSM. — kwami (talk) 18:28, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Light blue sounds right to me.Naraht (talk) 17:46, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Quilting problem
Hey Naraht,

I see Circle measure problem is about to roll off the Maths desk. Tone doesn't carry well into text, and I wanted to make sure you didn't think there was an annoyed tone behind my "Another quilting problem?" question. The actual tone was that of delight! I remembered your interesting Smallest grid with four orientation and every possible 2x2 combination in it question, and wondered if your new question was related. I don't quilt, but I do appreciate its artistic+geometric representations.

Kind regards, ToE 12:57, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * No, not quilting related, actually just playing with colored disks. Thank you for your comment there. Was hoping was an easily measurable number, sometimes things just don't end up that way.Naraht (talk) 13:20, 23 March 2021 (UTC)


 * So (√3 - π/3) radians isn't easily measurable? No, I guess not, though it is "a more pleasing form" than a numerical solution.  I'm a bit sorry to hear it wasn't quilting related, but happy to have been of help.  Cheers! -- ToE 14:52, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed, pleasing, but was hoping for a specific fraction of pi. Now I need to look back and see if I actually got an answer to te quilting quesiton.:) Naraht (talk) 17:44, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

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regarding the sigma chi article, Gregory Johnson Jr must be mentioned.
It is imperative that Gregory Jr and the rampant racism that sigma chi is known for be mentioned, especially considering how much they try to cover it up. A Black man died under suspicious circumstances, his cause of death has been proven (pictures and all) to be due to blunt force trauma... yet he was found hanged. So many students testified that he was physically bullied by racists. Proof here from someone who was at the protests and spoke to actual students (why would they lie, it seems really credible) https://sanjosespotlight.com/as-country-gapples-with-racism-activists-renew-call-for-justice-in-sjsu-killing/ It happened just one year before 2009 yet its not mentioned? And the rampant racism sigma chi is known for isnt mentioned at all? It must be mentioned otherwise its strategically left out and the perpetrators really benefit from that. Dont leave it out please.

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Split?
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SSM map
Thanks, Randolf.

In case you're interested, there have been objections to including a few countries on the world SSM map, summarized on Commons talk page for File:World marriage-equality laws (up to date).svg. E.g., if we have 2ary sources reporting the president of Haiti decreed SSM, though parliament might override him, does that count as green? Registering your cohabitation in Vietnam count as light blue? One case of granting residency in Namibia as light purple? — kwami (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Ceres (women's fraternity)
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Kappa Kappa Kappa
Re: the Dartmouth local, I'm not an apologist for their ill-chosen name, but in this specific case I might be convinced that adding the clarifying word "Society" might be a helpful addition to both the article name and to the resulting infobox at Kappa Kappa Kappa. Jax MN (talk) 13:04, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * . Not ill chosen, they chose their name 20 years before the clan existed. And I doubt people who don't know what the Kappa looks like would associate them with white supremacy. I need to change the fact that the group actually changed its name in the 1990s and then changed it back 3 years later.Naraht (talk) 17:46, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you are right; they pre-date the Klan. I'll just say this is one tough PR battle to overcome with each new class of students, and to overcome with each person who reads a resume or Linked In profile where that organization name is cited. Talk about an uphill battle.  The swastika, too, is an ancient symbol of prosperity and good luck, but even old Jainist and Buddhist temples are covering it or de-emphasizing its use. Not my monkey, not my circus. Jax MN (talk) 21:05, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
 * One advantage is that it is New Hampshire. Be a tougher road to hoe if it was in Nashville or some place farther south. I'm Jewish and lost ancestors in the extermination Camps. The South Asians tend to use it with the lines Horizontal and Vertical *and* more heavily use the mirror image of the more common one for the Nazis. There are a *few* cases where the Nazis used it with Horizontal and Vertical lines, but rare. I tend to give anything made before 1920 in Europe and anything before about 1935 outside of Europe (and especially in Asia) a pass.Naraht (talk) 23:54, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

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Gamma Xi Phi
Hi,

SenusretI/Sen's Revenge from GC has some physical articles the fraternity was featured in and was wondering if photos of the actual news coverage would be acceptable?

Thanks SbBlue (talk) 21:35, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm on GC as well (and use the same handle there), I'm concerned about WP:Notability. I googled "Gamma Xi Psi" and most of what I found was either by the organization or not useful for this purpose. is about the only thing and that's pretty thin. If we know where the articles are from, we can either use them or additionally find where that info is online. (And I know Rashid pretty well).Naraht (talk) 22:21, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Alpha Sigma Phi (Philippines)
Good morning. Regarding Alpha Sigma Phi (Philippines), I saw youe infobox title change, following our general guidance. In this specific case, it may be better to include the parenthetical modifier, as does the article mane itself, because of potential confusion with the American fraternity of the same name and since the article does use (Philippines) in its title. Jax MN (talk) 15:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Good point, I'll change it back, we certainly are going to have a few that are different.Naraht (talk) 15:55, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * OTOH, consider Alpha Phi Omega and Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines). Both of them have the same "Alpha Phi Omega" in the infobox.Naraht (talk) 17:06, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The devil is in the details. I don't have a good answer for APO.  Do the two groups cooperate?  I believe Alpha Sigma Phi had a falling out with the Philippine group over some branding issue.  I would aim for clarity, first and foremost. Jax MN (talk) 03:31, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * A scouter from APO-USA brought the idea to the Philippines in 1950 and the chartering and expansion were with full knowledge and approval of the APO-USA National Office. Our relationship as OK but distant until the 1970s hazing(?) death of Ferdinand Tabtab, when they became almost non-existant. The groups started talking more to each other in the late 1980s. Now there is an International Council between the two groups. They do things somewhat differently, they call their women members sisters and have separate but equal chapters for men and women at colleges (some schools only have one). Same Initiation ceremony, but different Necrological (Funeral) rites. They are *fully* mentioned in the national Pledge Manual. The APO-USA national leadership *really* would prefer that the Oblation Run not be done at USA Colleges. Our National Officers generally attend their conventions and vice-versa. So does that count as cooperate? :)17:08, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Well that level of cooperation is certainly better than the situation with Alpha Sigma Phi. And I say that with no slight to the US version of that fraternity.  Again, I think clarity is the #1 goal.  We should remove unnecessary words (like "Ind.", "Fraternity" or "Society" where they don't add value, but use them certainly where the article name also uses those words, or where there is a risk of ambiguity. So, there is a judgement call regarding fringe situations.  Jax MN (talk) 17:32, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * True. And I was quite aware of the situation with Alpha Sigma Phi. There are others where the relationships are even wierder. Ranging from Kappa Sigma (which doesn't claim to have any relationship with the one in the USA) to Sigma Alpha Epsilon which sometimes does to a fraternity Sigma Lambda Phi that lists its founding date as 1933 apparently because a completely unrelated sorority(!) with those letters was founded at Duquesne in that year (and actually stayed active until about 2005). Naraht (talk) 21:05, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Chi Beta Phi
I just noticed a page deletion, on copyvio grounds. I hadn't seen an AfD warning, though: Chi Beta Phi. Some of these editors are so eager to delete, delete, delete... But could add so much more value by fixing articles. Did you have anything on this? I saw you posted a brief comment on the delete discussion. Jax MN (talk) 11:30, 24 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I reported it. Major part of article was exactly equal to the about us. Wikipedia entry was older than earliest entry in archive.org. we can recreate. Naraht (talk) 12:22, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

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Template problem
, would you take a look at a template error that has cropped into the template ?

In the past week's I've noticed that an errant piece of metadata shows up when using the template. It appears on the Xi Kappa page, on the Kappa Theta Pi and elsewhere. It looks like {{#if:||! Name}. --Just looking at it, the error returned appears to need a second, closing fancy parenthesis. But when I looked at the template page I was unfamiliar with the coding syntax. I'd attempt to adjust it, but others who better practiced at template editing than I would assess the error more easily. Thanks! Jax MN (talk) 17:06, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , A new editor edited Template:FratChapterStart. I have reverted Naraht (talk) Naraht (talk) 17:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Jax MN (talk) 18:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

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Your help desk question
Did you find a response to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2021_June_24#Notability:William_E._McClusky_-_opinions_wanted. this]?— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  22:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I did not.Naraht (talk) 23:33, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't really have any thoughts on the subject myself, but each time I find a question in the archives unanswered, I like to see if anything more can be done. I'm two months behind.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  17:15, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * No problem. I wasn't going to write an article about him, but rather whether he qualifies for list of members for my fraternity. I've noted him on the talk page as undone, so if someone does write an article (or thinks that he is notable) I can add him.Naraht (talk) 19:13, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Landsmannschaft Schottland and Landsmannschaft Zaringia Heidelberg
Do you mean that one example Landsmannschaft Schottland should join Landsmannschaft Zaringia Heidelberg together in a group? Or what? Regards, Wname1 (talk) 06:38, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * No, what it means is that a tool used for other things (called AutoWikiBrowser) noticed that there were zero links to Landsmannschaft Zaringia Heidelberg in the mainspace. I went looking for any places that did make sense to link to it and found Coburger Convent der akademischen Landsmannschaften und Turnerschaften. Since there now is a link, I'll go back in and remove the orphan notation on Landsmanschaft Zaringa Heidelberg. I'm not famiiar with the Landsmannschaften, I think there is a *lot* in the Coburger Convent that could be brought (properly translated) to Coburger Convent der akademischen Landsmannschaften und Turnerschaften.Naraht (talk) 20:24, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

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Category:Alpha Chi Sigma has been nominated for discussion
Category:Alpha Chi Sigma has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:25, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Gamma Delta Epsilon
Thank you for the kind message, Mr. Naraht. Well, to be honest, this would be my first article if wikipedia will accept my submission. Moreover, I need your kind assistance if ever since I have no prior experience when it comes to editing or creating articles here.

I do really appreciate your comment and suggestion. If there are some improvements that I need to respond or comply with, please don't hesitate to message me. Thank you, sir! Lawyist 22 (talk) 12:43, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm responding here to keep things in one place. I'll put a note on your page as well, but it *should* give you an alert that you've been mentioned (use for me, if you response anywhere other than my talk page) Also put a colon for each level of response (so your rows will start with :: )
 * Looking at the draft, the biggest issue is for the first reference finding either a better source *or* properly describing where the pdf is from. Sources do *not* have to be in English, but it does have to be shown where it was published. The reference for CJ Narvasa actually needs to mention he is a member of Gamma Delta Epsilon, even if that one is from a GDE maintained source (such as the 60th or 70th anniv book). Similarly references need to be found for the other claimed alumni. Do bar Topnotchers represent best at UST or across the entire of the Philippines for that year? Peralta and Narvasa do have Gamma Delta Epsilon mentioned on the wikipedia pages about them, but with no reference at all. Take a look at Alpha Phi Beta as a model and for places that would have sources. Unfortunately a google search of ust.edu.ph doesn't have *any* hits for Gamma Delta Epsilon, but if they did in the past and you know of either a year or where on the website it was, we can check out archive.org.Naraht (talk) 16:53, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Not sure if any of the pressreader hits will help https://www.pressreader.com/search?query=%22gamma%20delta%20epsilon%22 will help or not. Also Sigma Rho is another good one to use as a place to look for ideas.Naraht (talk) 17:08, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

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edits on 2022 United States Senate election in Connecticut
Hi, I saw you started the article, so I wanted to reach out about these edits. I would revert, but I worry about being in an edit war with the editor in question. They have been notified on their talk page about not providing reliable sources for mentions like "The political Chatter", an apparent YouTuber who may have expressed running for office. I don't think it's quite time for WP:AIV intervention, but the user has not responded to notes about edits without good sources.

Regards, paul2520 💬 04:08, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't even remember creating it. However I have reverted it. We are still a long way from an edit war, but I'll keep an eye on the article.Naraht (talk) 04:55, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

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"Alpha Sigma Delta sorority" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Alpha Sigma Delta sorority. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 December 14 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion.

I'm cleaning up a duplicate redirect, as there are two for Alpha Sigma Delta:
 * Alpha Sigma Delta (sorority) - the preferable one
 * Alpha Sigma Delta sorority - the unnecessary one, now that Lambda Omega has its own article.

This matter is up for discussion, and I'm alerting you as you had participated in creating the earlier version, long before we fully wrote out several articles for Lambda Omega and Theta Upsilon. Probably not controversial, once you look at it. Jax MN (talk) 02:50, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

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