User talk:Nigel PG Dale

Proposed deletion of Patera Building


The article Patera Building has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Non-notable, fails WP:GNG"

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. DoubleGrazing (talk) 19:01, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

The section 'Innovations in Design and Manufacture' has been removed. I can live with that - the condensed article reads well enough. I have included some websites as current sources, and I have posted a single photo with added caption. If possible (DG) please remove == Proposed deletion of Patera Building == Thanks for your help.Nigel PG Dale (talk) 21:48, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Article exists
At present, the article exists, and no one has submitted it to Articles for Deletion. Congrats on having created an article. I suggest you put it on your Watchlist (menu option, upper right), so that you are aware of edits going forward. But take care not to act as if you 'own' the article. I have no intention of editing the article in the future. David notMD (talk) 14:37, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Signing comments
Remember to 'sign' your comments by typing four of ~ at the end. This lets editors know who wrote what. David notMD (talk) 17:17, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Images on Patera Building
Hello, could you please clarify where the images on Patera Building came from? You've uploaded them marked as your 'own work', but (to my non-expert eye) the top image looks like a photograph or scan of a printed image? If that's the case, whose copyright is the original image?

Also, the building diagram looks like it might have come from some publication, given that it has the 'Fig.1' note included. The file description says "provided by Mark Whitby", but it's not clear what that means. Thanks, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 13:07, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * ... it has the 'Fig.1' note included ... Yes, it was provided by Mark Whitby as it appears in the Publication Building with Steel (as referred to as a source) page 22. Whitby was the author of that article. I shall give photo credits with permissions for both of the other images. ~ ~ ~ ~


 * I'm no expert in what comes to copyright here, but if Mark Whitby is the copyright owner, you need to provide some evidence that he has allowed the image(s) to be placed freely in the public domain under commons licence. Just giving photo credits may not suffice. Also, I don't think you should upload images or other files as your own work, if they aren't in fact your own work. I'm going to comment out all the images in that article for now, until it has been somehow confirmed that they don't trespass on anyone's copyright; I trust you're okay with that. (PS: When you're replying on your talk page, I don't get alerted unless you 'ping' me.) Thanks, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:21, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi DG, I appreciate your concerns over copyright issues. I share your alarm when I see copyrighted material flying around on line. As a published author who deals regularly with © issues and permissions, I can assure you that I have permission to use these three images. The bottom one at Albert Island was taken in October 2020 by Colin Pugh, a lecturer at Manchester University School of Architecture. He has given, in writing, his permission to use his image. The top photo is a copy of one of hundreds given out in a press-release pack to coincide with the 1981 Interbuild Exhibition at the NEC. It was produced by the Longton Industrial Holdings Plc Publicity Dept with the express intention that it should be published. Finally, the Graphic by Mark Whitby is contained within one of the quoted sources, and thus, as long as it is correctly attributed, and I have permission from MW to use it - which I have, there can be little difference between this and quoting text from an attributed source. I don't see any requirement that only the © holder can post onto Wikimedia Commons. With permission, I find nothing wrong with my carrying out the mechanics of uploading these images. I take on board your concerns over © issues, but in this case you are pushing against an open door. Thanks for your help throughout. ps Please confirm that when I repost the above, you will leave them be. ~ ~ ~ ~


 * Thanks for your comments (and good thing I checked your talk page, since you're still not pinging me...). A few thoughts in response:
 * I wasn't so much commenting on whether you do or don't have permission to use the images; I was saying that without something to substantiate that, it's just your assertion, which isn't really enough. Or if the permission stems from a commons licence or similar, again that needs to be made clear.
 * Be that as it may, you shouldn't be describing things as your 'own work', when they're not; that right there is a violation of something. Saying that a piece of IP is your own work is not the same as saying that it's someone else's IP but that you have the owner's permission to use it.
 * Whether or not I will "leave them be" isn't really the point; if there is a copyright violation somewhere, and even if I do ignore it, doesn't resolve the problem, it just means that I'll be ignoring it. I really think this needs to be addressed at the source level, not within the article.
 * Regards, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 17:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Clarification
This has no business in the article unless it can be completely referenced. Even if, it is about what the Patera Building is not, which is not relevant. David notMD (talk) 22:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

yes, point agreed, I'll fully reference this section. Nigel PG Dale (talk) 06:47, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

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British High Tech architecture moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, British High Tech architecture, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of " " before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. CommanderWaterford (talk) 10:31, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Patera Building structure moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, Patera Building structure, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of " " before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 12:00, 6 July 2021 (UTC) I'll continue to work on this as a draft Nigel PG Dale (talk) 12:19, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Patera Building Stoke-on-Trent 1982 Hybrid Structure © Mark Whitby Graphic.jpeg
Thanks for uploading File:Patera Building Stoke-on-Trent 1982 Hybrid Structure © Mark Whitby Graphic.jpeg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Concern regarding Draft:High Tech Building Systems
Hello, Nigel PG Dale. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:High Tech Building Systems, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again&#32;or request that it be moved to your userspace.

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Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 14:01, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Patera Building structure


Hello, Nigel PG Dale. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Patera Building structure".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. If you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. ✗ plicit  12:45, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

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William Hammerton Smith moved to draftspace
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 * It is an article that can be added to by reference to reputable sources such as BBC News, national daily newspapers and specialist magazines covering the topic. Over a twenty-five year period, the subject Bill Smith went on to recover Bluebird K7 from the lakebed, rebuild it to the WSR specification and trial the craft on Loch Fad Isle of Bute in 2018. There will be no shortage of citations or links. Bluebird K7 has fourteen Wiki editors of which I am one. This article will draw on sources from many of those. Nigel PG Dale (talk) 15:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: William Hammerton Smith (May 10)
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KylieTastic (talk) 15:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: William Hammerton Smith (May 10)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Theroadislong was:

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Theroadislong (talk) 15:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

AfC notification: Draft:William Hammerton Smith has a new comment
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Change of agreed terms of Bluebird K7 page
By changing ‘Restored Bluebird K7 and parts or any of them’, to ‘but engineless Bluebird K7 and parts’ you are misrepresenting legal agreement with bias towards your client William Hammerton Smith and the Bluebird Project. The publicly available Tomlin Order states that the defendants agree to transfer, with immediate effect to the Clamant all rights, title, and interest that they or either of them have in the Restored Bluebird K7 and the Parts and all of them. To continue to edit the Bluebird K7 page with bias and distortion of the public and legally available evidence, in an attempt to make a false truth to support a book you are involved with is a breach of wiki rules. 90.251.76.84 (talk) 10:26, 22 June 2024 (UTC)


 * "... bias towards your client William Hammerton Smith and the Bluebird Project": Bill Smith is not a "client" of mine. I am not involved in any book about the history of K7 in cooperation with Bill Smith - he has undertaken to write an account of events himself in due course. It is an indisputable fact that Bluebird K7 was transported to Coniston in March 2024 without its engine. I have not broken any Wiki rules. Kindly desist from spreading false information and false accusations of my having broken Wiki rules.Nigel PG Dale 11:47, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Nigel PG Dale
 * I support the initial poster of the information.
 * The Tomlin order states the following.
 * B. the Defendants: (William Hammerton Smith / Bluebird Project Ltd)
 * (1) shall bear their own costs of this action
 * (2) agree to transfer, with immediate effect to the Clamant all rights, title, and interest that they or either of them have in the Restored Bluebird K7 and THE PARTS AND ALL OF THEM;
 * (3) confirm that they nor either of them has any further right, title or interest in the Restored Bluebird K7 AND THE PARTS AND ALL OF THEM;
 * (4) agree that they, nor either of them, have any rights, claim nor causes of action against the Claimant of whatsoever nature;
 * Your bias towards ‘the defendants’ is clear to see by your continued attempts to minimise the facts of a legally agreed (and signed by both parties) document dated February 7th 2024 in
 * THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
 * BUSINESS AND PROPERTY COURTS AT NEWCASTLE PROPERTY TRUSTS AND PROBATE LIST (ChD)
 * Case ref PT-2023-NCL-000016
 * HIS HONOUR JUDGE DAVIS-WHITE KC (sitting as a Judge of the High Court). 80.3.122.252 (talk) 12:47, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Under the terms of the Tonmlin order, does the museum have title over the Orpheus engine, owned by a third party but loaned to Bluebird Project for the purposes of running K7 on Loch Fad in 2018? If not, then the description "...the restored but engineless Bluebird K7..." is accurate. Nigel PG Dale 13:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The Tomlin order is clear on ALL PARTS AND ANY OF THEM excluding the engine:
 * ‘New Parts: all parts obtained by, received by, made by, or purchased by, or on behalf of, the Defendants and or Kiltech Underwater Limited, save the Engine, forming any part of the Restored Bluebird K7’
 * Trying to minimise ‘the parts’ is an attempt at trying to hide what has had to be given up, which is everything sans the engine.
 * Smith and BBP no longer have claim nor rights to anything as per the Tomlin order.
 * Your bias is clearly shown by your personal posts via ‘X’
 * https://x.com/otboae/status/1802727923113148808?s=61
 * https://x.com/otboae/status/1790279296394662107?s=61
 * https://x.com/otboae/status/1802951765840523586?s=61
 * https://x.com/otboae/status/1800286550279823376?s=61
 * https://x.com/otboae/status/1801989042600370278?s=61
 * https://x.com/otboae/status/1801262048258466225?s=61
 * https://x.com/otboae/status/1802778209504911689?s=61 80.3.122.252 (talk) 13:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you. My description of "The case was settled without a full hearing after Smith decided to "walk away" resulting in a Tomlin order, which confirmed that neither Bill Smith or the Bluebird Project had any further right, title or interest in the restored but engineless Bluebird K7 and parts." is correct. Nigel PG Dale 13:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ‘All parts and any of them sans the engine’ would be more accurate and truthful. 80.3.122.252 (talk) 14:05, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * https://x.com/otboae/status/1804530834990338483?s=61
 * No one is attacking you, we are posting the truth, but yet more evidence of your bias by complaining on the official bluebird project x pages. 80.3.122.252 (talk) 15:19, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This comment begs the question who is the "we" in all of this as in "we are posting the truth"? Nigel PG Dale 15:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * we are ‘the truth tellers’
 * we show what we say is the truth without conjecture 83.137.6.230 (talk) 16:18, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course you are attacking me personally by spreading false information and making false accusations. a) that Bill Smith is a "client" of mine and b) that I am writing a book about all of this which you say breaks Wiki rules. I'm not writing a book about it, and Bill Smith is not a client of mine - in fact I have never met him. Please withdraw these smears. Nigel PG Dale 16:18, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No smears, just truth.
 * Your connection to Bill Smith and the BBP is well established and confirmed by your many ‘X’posts. You are not unbiased 83.137.6.230 (talk) 16:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Bluebird Project and Bill Smith have been central to the Bluebird K7 story from 1996 until 2023. The Bluebird K7 Wiki page is tied up with BBP's involvement over that period whether you like it or not. All my points of information are correctly cited. Nigel PG Dale 17:00, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * As are our corrections that you try to undo.
 * As of this moment the Civil Litigation section is truthful and accurate.
 * ’Civil litigation
 * On 24 February 2023, The Ruskin Museum served legal papers on Bill Smith and Bluebird Project Ltd to ensure that the rebuilt Bluebird K7 was handed to its owners, since the Deed of giftgranted in December 2006. The case was settled prior to a hearing after Smith decided to "walk away" resulting in a Tomlin order, which confirmed that neither Bill Smith or the Bluebird Project had any further right, title or interest in the restored (but engineless) Bluebird K7 and all its parts. It also clarified an agreed proportion of the costs (£25,000) to be paid to the Ruskin museum, and ensured that K7 would be housed in the purpose-built Bluebird wing of the museum.’
 * Please avoid further changes.
 * Thank you 80.3.122.252 (talk) 17:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Orpheus was added in 66 therefore 66-67 83.137.7.169 (talk) 09:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Mae hynny'n gywir.
 * Orpheous yn unig yn
 * ystod ymgais record
 * cyflymder 66-67. 83.137.6.248 (talk) 12:59, 24 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Jumping in here as an admin. What independent reliable sources have written about the Tomlin order? Wikipedia articles should not be using court publications as a source—see WP:BLPPRIMARY, which says, "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person." 17:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This is not a sourcing issue. This is not about the fact of the order's wording, it's about the use of highly pejorative wording within the article, even though it can be argued to be 'supported' by the sources either way. It's an editing (and behavioural) issue, not sourcing.
 * Also this should be at Talk:Bluebird K7, not here. But the (conveniently anonymous) IPs are always so keen to personalise this. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:41, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * https://ruskinmuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Tomlin-Order-2024.pdf 83.137.7.169 (talk) 09:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)