User talk:Nlu/AOL

== from Talk: Main Page == '''You two act like children!! Can't you talk like adults and solve the problem?? I have an AOL problem also, I do not use AOL yet, I have the big 3 as you call them tracking my blog for what ever reason. Someone is using a proxy!!! Stop fighting and insulting each other, nothing has been solved because of it except blocking people that don't deserve it!!!!'''
 * ''  AOL blocks of almost 2 hours? 
 * '' applied to anyone who complains about their ip range being blindly blocked for 75 minutes?--205.188.116.138 19:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * ''Well, the nature of the ip system means that the same user can use different ips and so it becomes hard to pinpoint the offenders and block them Yellowmellow45 19:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Nlu. The above came from Talk:Main Page. (I'll remove it from that talk page.) I thought you may want to handle this yourself. Take care. -- PFHLai 20:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Basically, I don't believe it warranted a further response.  --Nlu (talk) 20:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * OF course not, when a user politly reminds you that you've blocked over a 3rd of AOL users for no reason, the only possible response is to range block AOL for an absurd period of time--64.12.116.71 21:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It was a 24-bit address block -- nowhere close to a third of AOL addresses. Of course, facts don't matter with vandals anyway.  --Nlu (talk) 21:15, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * AOL only operates 3 IP ranges, 64.x.x.x, 152.x.x.x, and 205.x.x.x, blocking one of those ranges leaves 1/3rd of AOL users blocked, your logic only works if you honetly think has AOL control over all ranges from 1.0.0.0 through to 255.255.255.255, also would you also please stop making generic personal attacks against random AOL users--64.12.116.71 21:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Note:I am AOL, and I am 172.x.x.x. Ian13/talk 21:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, these are AOL address ranges:

AOL IP Ranges
 * 64.12.0.0/16	 64.12.0.0 – 64.12.255.255 1)
 * 149.174.0.0/16	 149.174.0.0 – 149.174.255.255
 * 152.163.0.0/16	 152.163.0.0 – 152.163.255.255 2)
 * 172.128.0.0/10	 172.128.0.0 - 172.216.255.255<--Non-portable-DSL-AOL-range
 * 172.192.0.0/12<--Non-portable-DSL-AOL-range
 * 172.208.0.0/13<--Non-portable-DSL-AOL-range
 * 172.216.0.0/16<--Non-portable-DSL-AOL-range
 * 195.93.0.0/17	 195.93.0.0 – 195.93.127.255<--Non-US-AOL IP range
 * 198.81.0.0/19	 198.81.0.0 – 198.81.31.255<--Non-US-AOL IP range
 * 202.67.64.0/18	 202.67.64.0 – 202.67.127.255<--Non-US-AOL IP range
 * 205.188.0.0/16	 205.188.0.0 – 205.188.255.255 3)
 * 207.200.64.0/18	 207.200.64.0 – 207.200.127.255<--Non-US-AOL IP range

I didn't block 64.x.x.x; I blocked 64.12.116.x -- a very small subset of the range -- and as indicated above, it's false that AOL only operates 3 IP ranges. I blocked, at most, less than .01% of all AOL addresses, clearly all coming from the same dialup pool. Don't twist facts. But I guess that's what vandals do. --Nlu (talk) 21:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC) Even assuming arguendo all you are saying is true, it's still not 1/3 -- since I blocked 64.12.116.x -- 1/256 of 64.12.x.x. But I guess you can't do math. One more false accusation out of you and you're going back into the block. --Nlu (talk) 21:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * True, if you count all the non-portable DSL ranges, and the AOL canada ranges, and the EU ranges, you only blocked 1/3rd of all AOL users in the United States--64.12.116.71 21:25, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Note: He blocked a small subnet (with a max 255 users) 64.12.116.x of USA AOL. Ian13/talk 21:29, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Note: Multiple AOL users are assigned to the same ip address at the same time, like it says on the tempalte--64.12.116.71 21:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * This is ridiculous, if you want to range block a third of AOL, I can't stop you, the other administrators who are use AOL tend to get annoyed, but I can't do anything about it--64.12.116.71 21:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's still not a third (as I've pointed out multiple times) even if all you are saying is, arguendo, true; it's 1/768. Since you have not held off on an assertion that has been demonstrated to be false, you've been blocked for another 75 minutes.  Enjoy your break.  --Nlu (talk) 21:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ignoring the fact that you're blocking someone for disagreeing with you on a talk page, there's also another problem, it is a third, the only argument you've made is that it's not really a third, because if AOL users really wanted to avoid a block they could travel to canada, and use AOL-canada's IP ranges, it's an insane argument--64.12.116.71 21:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * What part of "64.12.116.x is 1/256 of 64.112.x.x" do you not understand? ( Very Nasty of you!!!) Of course, I don't believe you don't really not understand it; you're choosing to misrepresent the facts. --Nlu (talk) 21:47, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * For the record, I'm still right, and that's still a terrible reason to level a range block--205.188.117.8 22:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

AOL
AOL is a unique provider; not only do their IPs shift for every page load, but even if a person remains static on a page (say, loads a page and spends twenty minutes working through it before loading it again) their IP will change after 15 minutes. That is why AOL blocks are limited to 15 minutes; it's almost impossible to hit the person you are trying to get: By the time you click block, they are already on another IP, and even if you manage to hit them before they switch, they will switch within 15 minutes, guaranteed. I unblocked because another user was hit with the block; that's evidence the IP you blocked is no longer being used by the person you are trying to block. Essjay Talk •  Contact 21:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The person is keep coming back with the same IP (see above). --Nlu (talk) 21:50, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And -- since the block went back in, the person has been quiet. --Nlu (talk) 21:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Based on what I've observed the last two months, I must say I don't believe any more that AOL IPs change every time you reload the browser, since so many vandals have vandalized many pages from the same IP, at least in the same session. I find it far more likely that an IP is assigned to a dialin user, and then unassigned when that user hangs up. This would explain why vandals come back as different IPs the next time (say, a couple hours later or a couple days later), but vandalize from the same account during the same session; they hadn't hung up. The behavior of the user above corroborates, I think. --Nlu (talk) 21:57, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That's fine, but it's patent nonsense, and you're blocking an entire range because you don't "believe" in sharedips--205.188.117.8 22:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Aol ips change with every page they load because they're not assigned per-user, they're assigned per-page--205.188.117.8 22:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe in shared IPs alright; that's why I add sharedip with abandon.
 * However, in this case, it was clear that this person is continuing to post from the IP way past the 15 minute behavior described above. --Nlu (talk) 22:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, that's because the "15 minute window" thing is essentially made up to avoid long, drawn out incidents like this one, when dealing with CS challenged individuals, AOL blocks are pointless, and they do change with each page they load, the "15 minute window" just isn't the reason they do--205.188.117.8 22:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And? Note how you yourself are coming back with the same IP, even though you've obviously reloaded the page a number of times.  Again, I believe that the IP is now shared based on your dialin session, and by blocking for 75 minutes rather than 15, I am hoping to at least force the vandal to hand up and dial back in, which takes time and slows down the vandalism significantly.  --Nlu (talk) 22:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And, as a corollary, try hang up and dialing back in. Until you do, I don't think you'll get a different IP.  --Nlu (talk) 22:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * How can I hang up, I'm using a wifi connection, again, that doesn't make any sense, this isn't a dialup range, and yes of course I have a different ip on other pages, watch Talk:hat, I'll add the word hello, then rvert the changes, then come back here--205.188.117.8 22:17, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * , and yet, on this page I still have the same IP, convinced?--205.188.117.8 22:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * What is the nature of your Wifi connection? It still has to be connecting to a wireless router that connects to AOL in a given way -- dialup or DSL or a higher speed connection.  You can't directly wirelessly connect to AOL, since AOL doesn't operate WiFi entry points.  --Nlu (talk) 22:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Broadband/DSL, and if you think I'm actually walking upstairs and logging off of an "always on" connection just to make some kind of point, then you've under estimated my laziness--205.188.117.8 22:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Now, as I was saying prior to an edit confict, the ip I was given while editing the "talk:hat" page, was 205.188.117.13, and had edited the page List of characters from King of Fighters a few days ago, I will now edit that page myself, and I will be given the same IP, will then come back here, and be given my origional ip back again--205.188.117.8 22:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * as promised, now do you understand why AOL range blocks affect an odd number of users?--205.188.117.8 22:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll edit a different page, if you wish, how about Talk:bat, one ip here, one ip there--205.188.117.8 22:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * same thing happens, and yet, same ip here, so either I'm clairvoyant, or I actually know what I'm talking about--205.188.117.8 22:29, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And back to the origional point, if you had the choice of either explaining/demonstrating all of that to every single wikipedia administrator, or, making up some thing about "15 minute ip windows" that was easy to swallow, yet technically incorrect, which would you choose?--205.188.117.8 22:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think you've actually demonstrated that a block may be effective -- in that the vandal might not be able to come back to the page he/she vandalized -- but obviously, collateral damage is the issue and that is known already. In the case of the vandal I was chasing this morning, however, he/she was roving through a variety of IPs in that subnet. --Nlu (talk) 22:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * [I don't know], I've never been given a 149.anything, and I pretty much cycle through the big 3(205, 152, and 64) just about every day, maybe that range is non-portable?--205.188.117.8 22:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That is an interesting point, you could probably stop someone from editing a given page, as long as you keep in mind that you're not blocking the vandal per say, rather you're blocking AOL users, a large number of them, from editing that page, for the length of the block, as well as any other pages that AOL has assinged that specific ip to,
 * but in theory, yes, you could stop all AOL access to a given page by looking in it's history, and finding the 3 specific IP addresses AOL has assigned to that page, would completly eliminate the need for range blocks, since whenever they come back to that page, they'll be hit with a block--205.188.117.8 22:55, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * which is why AOL auotblocks are such a PITA, all a blocked RU has to do is edit a half a dozen pages with AOL, and they've blocked all AOL users from editing the same page for the next 24 hours--205.188.117.8 22:57, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * and another problem, this leaves most AOL users wide open for impersonation, for instance this mess, has to have been created by more than one person, unless this page was edited by someone with a compulsion for self-reverts--205.188.117.8 23:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And a final point, using the [ edit ] button will not only allow you to have a different ip on the same page, it will actually assign you, in some cases, a different ip for each section of each article, that is retained every time you edit that one section--205.188.117.8 23:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If you still think the "15 minute window" is an unreasonable white lie, then perhaps we should subst: your user page into the AOL template --205.188.117.8 23:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)