User talk:Nlu/archive68

Hotcat
Hi - your recent Hotcat edits have been removing valid categories from articles, such as from Jiang Ning - please be more careful in future. GiantSnowman 07:56, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No, that was quite intentional. The category was getting too large and unwieldy and should be subcategorized.  Please see WP:DIFFUSE.  --Nlu (talk) 13:18, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * If you are deliberately removing these categories, then I strong advise you to stop - you are editing against long-standing community consensus. GiantSnowman 13:23, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Please cite the consensus if there had been a written one reached before. Again, WP:CAT policies apply.  If you want to open a WP:RFC, I'm all for it, but I simply don't understand how such a huge and unwieldy category is useful in any way.  --Nlu (talk) 13:24, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The archives at WT:FOOTY will contain the discussion, but I am willing to start a new one should you wish? GiantSnowman 13:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Please. In the mean time, I will stop (since there are similar other Category:Chinese people by occupation categories that are also getting similarly unwieldy that I'm trying to prune) until there are further thoughts on this.  Let's see if there are some new opinions on this.  But I would ask you to also reconsider your own opinion: a 400+ person category is simply not a useful category for any purpose.  --Nlu (talk) 13:27, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Discussion started - Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. Regards, GiantSnowman 13:34, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Just fyi, I've tried to revive the discussion with a proposal on the WP football page. Best, Dsp13 (talk) 20:09, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! (And thanks for letting me know.)  --Nlu (talk) 20:11, 6 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I was also surprised to see all the removals of the quite useful category and replacing it with regional categories. The usefulness of a category depends on it being obvious and being able to find a number of people in it. Who is going to look for Chinese Educators from Sichuan? Once you get to the category Chinese Educators, then it might be useful. I don't object to your adding regional categories, but please restore Chinese Educators! ch (talk) 05:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll say this again: it's not a removal. (Sorry, didn't mean to shout, but I think the point needs to be emphasized.) The category the way that it was populated was not useful, and diffusion is not the same as removal; since, for example, Category:Educators from Anhui is a subcategory of Category:Chinese educators, diffusion merely moves it into a subcategory and doesn't remove it from the category tree altogether.  Again, please see how WP:DIFFUSE defines the concept.
 * That having been said, I'd be open to a centralized discussion on the subject, but I still felt that the prior haphazard state that the category was in made it not useful. I might have agreed with you if it wasn't in such a poor state, maintenance wise, but it was.  --Nlu (talk) 05:45, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * (And there was much duplication between Category:Chinese educators and its subcategories prior to this; virtually everyone who was in the educators category was already in one or more (sometimes many) of its subcategories! If we're going to do things this way, why bother having a category tree?)  --Nlu (talk) 05:47, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You have valid points about vague or overly broad categories which have hundreds and hundreds of items. They are not useful to readers in finding what they want. But "Chinese Educators" was not such a large category. I looked at the page history of the Category, which is probably not be accurate, but it only had three entries. Do you know how many there actually were? If it was perhaps several dozen, then it would be a useful way for a reader to see how Chinese education developed.
 * The most important thing is to be useful for readers, not the beauty of the category tree. Again, a category "Educators from Sichuan" is not one which readers would search for or which, finding it on the page for James Yen, would lead them to other educators who are not mentioned on the page but who are in the same area of interest, say, Chiang Monlin.
 * I must add, however, that I very much appreciate your work and your concern. ch (talk) 18:50, 17 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I see that you have not stopped changing the categories but have removed the CHinese Educators category from James Yen.
 * Let's work out together what we want to do. I don't think that the provincial category is useful to readers. It doesn't meet the objection to say that every who was in the category Chinese Educators is now in a subcategory -- being in a subcategory means that it will be that much more difficult for readers to find the person or others in his or her logical group!
 * How's this: If you want to replace "Chinese Educators," a time period category would be far more useful. THat is, "Educators in Republican China," "Educators in the People's Republic of China," etc. etc. In this categorization, a reader could quickly find the subject's colleagues and contemporaries, which is far more informative than finding ones from two centuries earlier just because they happened to come from the same province. And how will you deal with Tang dynasty or Song dynasty educators, time periods when the system of provinces was quite different from the modern one? ch (talk) 19:04, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, the point I'm making is: it was a mess -- not as much of a mess as the footballers' category, but a mess. (When I decided to start diffusing, it has 99 people, but again, it had a underlying tree that people were simply disregarding. My general rule of thumb for when to diffuse is 100 -- and in this case, given the underlying dysfunction, 99 is close enough to 100, in my mind at least.) But I'll also say this: nothing is stopping you (or anyone else) from diffusing in a different manner, as long as the diffusion is logical. When I see a category that needs to be diffused, I think in my mind how it should be diffused. People will have differences in opinion than I do; I get that. But people are free to diffuse in different ways than what I want to. It's not an either-or proposition. --Nlu (talk) 02:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your openness and the information that there were 99 people in the Chinese Educators category (if I understood you correctly). This hardly seems a "mess" and in fact would be quite useful. But how is one to find the people who were in the category? Do you have any way? I suppose somebody could follow your Contributions and redo them one by one, but it doesn't seem to be somebody else's job to undo what you have done. ch (talk) 07:49, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no way to reconstruct the category's membership, you're right -- since the categories are themselves dynamic.
 * But what I was referring to as a "mess" is the fact that the articles that I was diffusing were not themselves being categorized properly in this hierarchy or in other hierarchies. For example, most of them were not properly placed in categories even by their field of expertise -- they were haphazardly simply all dumped into either Category:Chinese educators or Category:Chinese academics (or both!) without regard for the fact that they should properly be in subcategories thereof (even had I not decided to also do geographic diffusions).  Moreover, Category:Faculty by university in China (and I may be creating too many subcategories thereof as a part of this, but certain a number existed, and I will note that that category has counterparts for many countries -- see the Category:Academics by university hierarchy) only had categories for a few "big name" universities, but even there, people who taught at those universities were not properly added to those universities' faculty categories, and some universities' faculty categories were not placed into that category at all but simply sitting as, effectively, categories to nowhere.  Many of them were not placed into geographic origin categories.  Basically, whoever wrote them simply dumped them into Category:Chinese educators and didn't properly categorize them in other manners.  Even ignoring the faculty categories themselves (which at some point I or another person may need to reorganize as well), virtually none of those articles which was simply sitting in Category:Chinese educators was properly categorized based on field or by geographic origin.  It's almost as bad as if someone simply dumped them all into Category:Chinese people.  The state that I was describing, I would submit, was a mess, even if not as big of a mess as the footballers category.  Take  this diff of Hua Gang, for example; you really think that previously, that article's categorization was not a "mess"?  Categorization, at least as far as biographical articles are concerned, is supposed to serve, I'd say, is the essential equivalent to GPS coordinates: it is supposed to pinpoint the who, what, when, of a person.  Effectively, it said, "This person was an educator and he was the president of a college," and that's all.  You think this sufficiently pinpointed the who/what of this person?
 * As WP:CAT described: "The central goal of the category system is to provide navigational links to all Wikipedia pages in a hierarchy of categories which readers, knowing essential - defining - characteristics of a topic, can browse and quickly find sets of pages on topics that are defined by those characteristics." The way that the articles in Category:Chinese educators were in, most (I will admit, not all) were not serving this essential function.
 * Again, I am not unmindful of the fact that the diffusion scheme which I initiated (which I had no time or energy to further deal with today since I spent the entire day in court, but I do plan to further try to further properly categorize articles that were, likewise, simply dumped into Category:Chinese academics, when I have time) may not be what everyone would agree to be a logical diffusion scheme. But again, "leave things the way they are" is not an acceptable way, since those articles in the Category:Chinese educators category were, in fact, in a mess as far as their categorizations were concerned.  --Nlu (talk) 08:56, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * (And many of them had improper sort keys, and also weren't properly interwiki linked with Chinese Wikipedia articles. Again, it was a mess.)  --Nlu (talk) 13:16, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Again I think you deserve thanks for taking on a (thankless?) task and setting off a useful discussion. I'll wait to see what others say, but IMHO categories with just one person in them are not useful, and it would be better to have a useful mess than useless order. Now that you have started the process, we can work towards having both usefulness and order! ch (talk) 19:59, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * :-) We'll see if someone else can think of something better, but again, they can work in tandem, not in opposition to each other.  --Nlu (talk) 01:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

genealogy help

 * Li_Bai


 * 李暠


 * 李商隐


 * 李白


 * 李歆


 * 李翱


 * 李恂

can you provide genealogies, a list of Li Bai's ancestors (and the other people I listed as well,) to Li Gao

I need them to complete the family tree over here.

Talk:Chinese_emperors_family_tree_(middle) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr reems 45kg (talk • contribs) 07:57, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

also help with these guys and the song dynasty tree-


 * 趙孟頫


 * Zhao Mengfu
 * Zhao Yong


 * 趙宧光


 * 趙宧光


 * 赵家堡

I need a list of each of their ancestors translated into english (and chinese characters)Mr reems 45kg (talk) 08:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Zhao Yiguang

If this is too much please just do the Tang dynasty ones. Mr reems 45kg (talk) 08:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Can you clarify? Just names (in Chinese characters and pinyin)?  Or do you need any other information?  --Nlu (talk) 13:01, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * yes I want the names in characters and pinyin, and their birth and death dates if known. The information i have here is incomplete, i don't have a full list of people connecting li bai to li gao or the others as well. I need all the names of their ancestors in order to fit them onto the family tree.


 * Also i want to connect these people to the ming dynasty family tree, i need a list of their ancestors to the last ming emperor from which they were descended

http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh/%E5%BB%B6%E6%81%A9%E4%BE%AF

http://baike.baidu.com/view/2998428.htm


 * I think it should be easy to find on the internet through googling, this information should not be copyrighted since it is centuries old. I found the complete family tree from Laozi to the tang emperors through google.. But i need someone who knows chinese fluently to find these other people since their relationship is less well known and more complex to the main family lines.Mr reems 45kg (talk) 19:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Let me start with Tang. That's my area of relative expertise. :-)  Neither Song nor Ming is, but I might be able to figure it out later.  --Nlu (talk)


 * I know the link between the ming emperor's and the marquises i listed is definite and not contested at all, neither is the song emperor's link to zhao mengfu or zhao yiguang, i just need the mssing gaps filled in connecting them. They were well established and its not like Li Bai's ancestry which is undocumented. The reason those people were appointed by marquises by the qing emeperors was because they were descendants of the ming emperors. And zhao mengfu's ancestry is basically listed on his chinese wikipedia pae, i just need a translation, zhao yiguang is harder to find.Mr reems 45kg (talk) 19:36, 8 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I will try to get it when I have time. If trial does not actually go into earnest tomorrow (there is still a chance that it would be resolved by a plea deal), I'll try to do so tomorrow or later this week.  --Nlu (talk) 19:40, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Li Bai

 * I don't think it will be possible (with the sources I have available, and it sounds like the scholars don't have any more anyway) to trace Li Bai's ancestry back to Li Gao, since the biographies in the Book of Tang and the New Book of Tang simply don't give much information (and some scholars are skeptical of the link to Li Gao).
 * The New Book of Tang doesn't even give Li Bai's father's name and just indicated that his 9th generation ancestor was Li Gao, which would make him the same generation as Emperor Taizong of Tang.
 * The dates for Li Gao (李暠) are 351-417.
 * According to the Chinese Wikipedia article, the Book of Tang gave Li Bai's father's name as Li Ke (李克), but I actually can't find that myself.
 * I think that's all I have on him. --Nlu (talk) 19:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Li Shangyin

 * I am running into similar issues with Li Shangyin. His actual attachment to the Tang imperial house is essentially unconfirmed.
 * According to Book of Tang:
 * Great grandfather was Li Shuheng (李叔恆).
 * Grandfather was Li Fu (李俌).
 * Father was Li Si (李嗣).
 * Chinese Wikipedia gives an additional generation up: great-grandfather as Li She (李涉).
 * New Book of Tang has an entirely different theory for his ancestry: that he was a descendant of Li Shiji (whose original name was Xu Shiji and therefore wouldn't be related to the Tang imperial house at all).
 * I don't think I have anything else to add here. --Nlu (talk) 19:57, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Li Xin and Li Xun

 * Both of them are Li Gao's sons (and successive dukes of Western Liang). All the information I have on them would be in Li Xin (duke) and Li Xun (both of which I wrote the most substance of).  --Nlu (talk) 19:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Li Ao

 * For him, all I can find is in the New Book of Tang, which just claimed that he was a descendant of Li Gao's. The only ancestor with a name was his father Li Chujin (李楚金).  No other information I can find.
 * I think that's all I have now for the Tang Dynasty folks. For the Song and Ming folks, I'll try to look at them next weekend (or when the trial I'm in is over, whichever is sooner).  Since I am less familiar with Song and Ming, I think I can make fewer promises.  --Nlu (talk) 20:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Li Yangbing
can you take a quick look at this guy 李阳冰 who i forgot to list?Mr reems 45kg (talk) 21:24, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure. But as there is no biography for him in the Book of Tang and the New Book of Tang, all I can discern is from the Chinese Wikipedia article, which said that he was from the Li clan of Zhao Commandery (in other words, different clan than the Li imperial clan, which was from Longxi originally).  However, somehow the article still had Li Bai refer to him as an uncle (even though Li Bai was also himself allegedly from the Longxi Li clan and was older than Li Yangbing).  The only ancestor listed in the article is a 5th-generation ancestor, Li Shanquan (李善權), who was an official of Northern Wei Dynasty.  --Nlu (talk) 13:26, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Zhao Mengfu/Zhao Yong
Sorry it's taken a while. Basically, this is how the family tree goes -- but I can't discern additional dates out of the articles (including from the History of Yuan, either, other than what's already in the Wikipedia articles). Going backwards:


 * Zhao Yong (趙雍) (1289-~1360 per Wikipedia article)
 * Zhao Mengfu (趙孟頫) (1254-1322), Duke Wenmin of Wei (Yuan title) - note, a grandson through a daughter (obviously not Zhao Yong) is Wang Meng (artist)
 * Zhao Yuyin (趙與訔)
 * Zhao Xiyan (趙希戭)
 * Zhao Shichui (趙師垂)
 * Zhao Bogui (趙伯圭), Prince Jing of Chongxian (Song title)
 * Zhao Zicheng (趙子偁) (-1143), Prince Xi of Xiu'an, brother to Emperor Xiaozong of Song
 * Zhao Linghua (趙令譮), Duke of Qing, biological father of Emperor Xiaozong of Song (who was adopted by Emperor Gaozong of Song)
 * Zhao Shijiang (趙世將), Marquess of Huayin
 * Zhao Congyu (趙從郁), Marquess of Xinxing
 * Zhao Weixian (趙惟憲) (979-1016), Duke of Ying
 * Zhao Defang (趙德芳) (959-981), Prince Kanghui of Qin
 * Emperor Taizu of Song (Zhao Kuangyin, 趙匡胤) (927-976) --Nlu (talk) 04:59, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Please stop tagging Chinese-sounding names for deletion just because their articles are stubs
You are an administrator; please do more research if you want to propose articles for deletion. Your pattern (Chen Guanrong, Zhou Zhonghe, Qian Nairong) and the fact that you are tagging way-too-notable people, is bad for Wikipedia's image.Churn and change (talk) 19:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That's why I'm proposing them; other people can correct me if they want. It should be noted that most of the articles I propose for deletion are eventually deleted as part of the discussion process, and that's how AFD is supposed to work.  --Nlu (talk) 21:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Ridiculous nominations such as the one for Zhou make it appear that you have no respect for WP:BEFORE. It may well be that many of your nominations are eventually deleted; that could mean that that subset of your nominations deserved deletion, or it could mean that they merely didn't get the attention they should have, in part because you were not giving them that attention yourself. I agree with Churn: take more care when doing this or don't do it. This is not a race to see who can nominate articles for deletion the quickest. Take the time to do it right. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:45, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "Chinese sounding" or not, an article that asserts, as someone's only notability, that the person "noted" an extinct species calls for a deletion discussion, in my opinion, particularly when I did do a scholars search and couldn't discern -- perhaps it's just because I am simply too out of the field -- whether the person's significance is beyond that. If I was sure that the person was unnotable, I wouldn't have even nominated for deletion; I could simply delete it myself.  That I wasn't going to do.  --Nlu (talk) 02:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Chinese politicians by province
Hi Nlu

I am notifying all those who contributed to the discussion at Categories for discussion/Log/2012 October 26 that I have relisted most of the categories at Categories for discussion/Log/2012 November 2.

You may wish to make a further contribution to the relisted discussion. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:41, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Apollo 11 lunar sample display, Apollo 17 lunar sample display
Responded to your concerns about the pictures.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:45, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. --Nlu (talk) 19:49, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you respond to User:Volunteer Marek's list. Thanks again. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:14, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Ambassador of the republic of china to saudi arabia
Was there an ambassador of the ROC to saudi arabia before Ma Bufang in 1957?Rajmaan (talk) 06:25, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Beats me, off the top of my mind. Let me try to look around to see if I can find anything.  --Nlu (talk) 06:26, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * If the Chinese Wikipedia article zh:中国驻沙特阿拉伯大使列表 is correct, no -- the article asserts that while diplomatic relations were established in 1946, no embassy (and no ambassador) was established until 1957. --Nlu (talk) 06:28, 25 November 2012 (UTC)


 * A series of East Turkestan Independence Movement (the anti communists associated with Isa Yusuf Alptekin) propaganda documents disseminated in the muslim world in 1960 were translated into english. Besides the distorted history lesson in the first few dozens of pages, it contained a page where a uyghur mufti in saudi arabia (Alptekin and his buddies called themselves turkestanis and didn't call themselves uyghurs, that was used by the pro soviet communist uyghurs until they joined together after the fall of the soviet union), demanded that the ROC ambassador to saudi arabia (apparently Ma bufang) press the ROC to drop its claims to Xinjiang and help "turkestani" refugees in saudi arabia and other countries who had ROC passports. Ma Bufang sent a letter back to them telling them essentially to buzz off, that the ROC didn't care about turkestani refugees and wouldn't help them or drop its claims to xinjiang, and that the "turkestani nation" was a fake idea created by Abdul Qayyum Khan (a pakistani politician). Are there chinese language documents relating to the ROC embassy in saudi arabia from Ma Bufang's time relating which are publicly availible?Rajmaan (talk) 04:13, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * This is outside of my expertise, and I am not sure about this. I would suggest writing the ROC Foreign Ministry to ask about this.  (See http://www.mofa.gov.tw/EnOfficial; there's a link under "Online Services" for "Minister's Mailbox," but I am going to assume that they accept general inquiries there.)  --Nlu (talk) 04:17, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Help
Can you translate this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceism to 中文 please?Ahmadce (talk) 15:52, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but no. First, it's outside my area of expertise.  Second, while I have no problem translating small bits and pieces from English to Chinese, translating large blocks of English to Chinese presents a problem to me in that I am not accustomed to lengthy writing in Chinese elegantly.  (I do translate quite a bit from Chinese to English.)  Third, the English article has its own problems right now.  I would advise fixing up the English article first into a more Wikified and stable form before attempting to translate it into Chinese.  --Nlu (talk) 16:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

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Zhuge Liang
Hi Nlu, over at Zhuge Liang there are several IPs trying to claim that the fictional stories from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms are his "most notable achievements", hence implying they are historical. Since they are hopping across different IPs and have been reverted by myself and several others, is it alright if I ask you, an admin familiar to the topic, to put a semi-protection on that page? Thanks. _dk (talk) 09:51, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.  --Nlu (talk) 14:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your prompt response! _dk (talk) 16:59, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

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Re:categories
Why is not expected (as for all other countries), that regional athletes, are a subcategory of the nation. It is understood that in the category of the nation are included only athletes that nationality. --Kasper2006 (talk) 06:10, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * China is a large nation that needs to be subcategorized to avoid disorganization. (That's done with the United States, too.)  --Nlu (talk) 06:20, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

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Nomination of Modu for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Modu is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Modu until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Happy Holidays
Happy Holidays, Nlu, and I wish you much luck in the new year. Cydevil38 (talk) 07:12, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. You too!  --Nlu (talk) 07:12, 28 December 2012 (UTC)