User talk:Nlu/archive70

Classical chinese translation
Can I have a translation and original chinese text from these two documents, only to the limit that the text pertains to the rebellion of the muslim leaders Milayin and Ding Guodong (translate and transcribe only the part relating to the rebellion and not the entire book, which would take years) (I'm asking for text because I don't have a chinese keyboard to copy it manually)


 * 洋縣(陝西)志: 8卷 By 張鵬翼


 * 皇朝藩部要略: 18卷 : 拊表 : 4卷, Volumes 1-8 By 祁韻士

If you also have time, i would also like a translation of text relating to "Areshi", who was a leader of the nomadic Kirghiz during the Tang dynasty, I want to know if this is the same person as him.


 * 元史譯文證補: 三十卷 By 洪鈞

Can you create a stub article in Areshi like they have at 阿熱氏?

I have several sources here to use as references, I will eventually build on it if you create the stub. 

Rajmaan (talk) 19:25, 20 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I am currently in the middle of a trial, but should finish before the weekend. I do have a number of things I have to do over the weekend as well, though.  I'll see.  Please remind me in a week or so if I don't get back to you on this.  Getting the text transcribed may be a bit of an issue for me — while I do type Chinese, I am not all that fast at doing so.  I'll try to help, but I can't promise anything yet.  --Nlu (talk) 19:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, my trial is done, but I may need a couple days to recuperate from it and catch up on other things I should have done but had been held up by the trial. As for the first two texts, they do not appear long, so I should be able to help.  As for the third text, it wasn't loading for some reason just now when I was trying to look at it.  However, "Areshi" would not be the right way to render it regardless.  Just "Are" would be proper, as "Shi" in this context referred to a last name or a clan.  --Nlu (talk) 04:13, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, it loaded eventually. Based on the text, no, I do not believe they were the same person, based on the likely time gap of about two centuries at least; they just had the same family name.  (It would not even be clear that they were from the same paternal line.)  The text that you linked referred to an ancestor, while the more known leader was toward the end of Tang Dynasty.  (The reason why I believe it referred to an ancestor was that the next paragraph referred to the Zhenguan years, implying that it was before Zhenguan, which would be early in Tang Dynasty.)  --Nlu (talk) 04:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, per your request, I'm going to start dealing with the first text, take it one at a time... --Nlu (talk) 00:09, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Records of Yang County
"五年四月逆回米喇印丁國棟踞蘭州作亂糾眾千餘陷臨洮勇同副將陳萬略率兵夾擊敗賊收復臨洮躡賊至岷州敗之官堡又敗之馬韓山賊竄匿二崖洞盡滅之五月擒明延長王朱識<金穿>於馬家坪喬芳偕侍郎額色督師攻拔蘭州勇會師合剿遂渡河而西八月抵甘州逆回據城拒勇率兵迎擊屢敗之六年正月總兵南一魁奪西門入勇西南隅搜剿至東門逆回勢窮夜遁躡跡至北山殲賊甚眾斬喇印於水泉國棟竄肅州五月勇率兵赴蘭州伏兵壕外伺賊出牧四面截殺斬級數百生擒百餘人十一月與副將馬寧督兵樹雲梯登城奮剿殪賊黨殆盡國棟等就擒伏誅肅州城復"

(As you might know already, "real" classical Chinese lack punctuation marks. Therefore, breaking off the terms is an important part of interpreting the meaning of a sentence.  I'm not going to try to do that unless you want me to do it.)

This is how I would translate it; implied terms are in brackets. Note that under this text, "Mi" is clearly implied to be a surname.

"In the fourth month of the fifth year [of Shunzhi] Mi Layin and Ding Guodong occupied Lan Prefecture and rebelled. They gathered more than 1,000 men and captured Lintao. [Zhang] Yong, along with his deputy general Chen Wanlüe, led their forces, attacked the bandits on two sides, defeating them and recovering Lintao.  They followed the bandits to Min Prefecture and defeated them at Guanbao and then again at Mount Mahan.  The bandits fled and hid in two mountain caves, but they were all destroyed.  In the fifth month, Ming's Prince of Yanchang, Zhu Shi[chuan?], was captured at Majiaping.  Qiao Fang and the Shilang Ese commanded their forces and captured Lan Prefecture.  [Zhang] Yong joined forces with them and attacked [the rebels] together, and then crossed the [Yellow] River west.  In the eighth month, he reached Gan Prefecture.  The rebellious Hui took position inside the city and resisted. [Zhang] Yong led his forces and attacked them directly, defeating them repeatedly. In the first month of the sixth year [of Shunzhi], the commander Nan Yikui captured the western gate and entered. [Zhang] Yong rounded up [the rebels] from the southwest corner to the eastern gate. The rebellious Hui ran out of strength and fled in the night. [He] followed them to the northern mountain and destroyed a large group of them, decapitating [Mi] Layin at a water spring. [Ding] Guodong fled to Su Prefecture. In the fifth month, [Zhang] Yong led his forces and headed for Lan Prefecture, but stationed hidden troops outside the moat waiting. Once the bandits exited the city to [allow their animals to] graze, they were intercepted and attacked on four sides; several hundreds were decapitated, and more than a hundred were captured alive. In the 11th month, [Zhang Yong] and his deputy Ma Ning commanded the soldiers to climb up ladders onto the city walls. They fought hard, and the bandit party was all destroyed. [Ding] Guodong and the others were captured and executed, and Su Prefecture was recaptured."

(For the Ming prince's name, the text you linked gave it as a character where you put 金 and 穿 together. I can't find such a character available on Mac OS, and while I would speculate that it is pronounced "Chuan," I do not have any kind of certainty.  The online sources, both traditional and simplified, render it as 锛 (I assume in traditional it should really be 錛), which seems to be implausible to me, but if it is, it would be pronounced "Ben."  "Majiaping" could be more literally translated as "Ma Clan's Field" or "Ma Clan's Plateau.")

I'll look at the second text tonight if I am up to it. If not, it will probably the weekend. (Please also be aware that typing and translating the above text took me an hour; again, while I do read classical Chinese, typing Chinese is not first nature to me since I've been in the United States for nearly 30 years and did not have formal schooling in Taiwan or any other Chinese-speaking country past elementary school...) --Nlu (talk) 00:55, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Summary of Descriptions About the Imperial Dynasty's Vassals
"六年青海鄂木布•瑚嚕木什•以河西白帽回族米喇印丁國棟等謀助逆•大軍討之復招降西寧城 詔賜鄂木布•土謝圖巴圖爾岱青號•瑚嚕木什•巴圖爾額爾德尼岱青號•鄂木布卒•墨爾根台吉嗣• 詔襲土謝岱青號•其巴圖爾號弗之給也•"

(I am gathering that 青號 (Qinghao) is some kind of a designation of a military command in the Qing Manchu military command structure, based on what I am seeing on the Web, but no source I see explains it well to my understanding. I am, obviously, not a Qing history expert.  Also, these multisyllabic titles in Tibetan/Mongolian/Manchurian are not what I can decipher, obviously.  As you might see as well, by this point, there were beginning to be use of minor punctuation marks to avoid issues with breaking off names, particularly from transliterated languages.)

This is how I would translate it (with the disclaimer above):

"In the sixth year [of Shunzhi], Emubu and Hulumushi of Qinghai, because the white-hat-wearing Hui west of the [Yellow] River, Mi Layin and Ding Guodong, had conspired to aid the rebels, launched their armies to attack [the Hui] and also to encourage the City of Xinin to surrender. [The Emperor] issued an edict conferring the Qinghao of Baxietubatuerdai on Emubu and the Qinghao of Batuer'e'erdenidai on Hulumushi. After Emubu died, his heir was Mo'ergentaiji.  [The Emperor] issued an edict authorizing him to inherit the Qinghao of Tuxiedai, but did not give him the Qinghao of Batu'er."

--Nlu (talk) 16:20, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Milayin
This is great, it corroborates with the English language sources at the article I am writing at User:Rajmaan/Milayin Rebellion. The Ming Prince's name is Zhu Sichuan according to the sources. I didn't know the characters for his hame but now I do. I know the Mi in Milayin is a surname but for some reason all english sources call him "Milayin" without any space so I have to use that. I assume white hat hui means muslims as opposed to blue hat hui, which meant Jew. This is a really neglected field, all the other Ming loyalists like Koxinga got their own articles on themselves and their battles while there is nothing on muslim Ming loyalists ....Rajmaan (talk) 00:57, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This is where I'd urge you to reconsider the situation. It seems clear to me that the English sources misunderstood what "Mi" is, and I think that the Chinese sources should be considered authoritative on this issue and followed.  I do understand why an opposite opinion is a reasonable one, but I think that where the Chinese sources are clear, it's the Chinese that should be followed.  Nothing in WP:RS says that it's the English sources that need to be followed.  --Nlu (talk) 04:51, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, "Si" would clearly be incorrect; "Shi" should be used given what we know. --Nlu (talk) 04:53, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

About the third text (about the Are)
How much do you want it typed/translated? It's a bit more than I can handle. I am, as I said, going to create a stub off the Chinese Wikipedia article, but the descriptions here are fairly extensive such that I don't think it will be easy at all for me to type it. (Translating it might be easier.) --Nlu (talk) 17:56, 23 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Just do the page where the name is located.Rajmaan (talk) 23:19, 23 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Looking at the text again, I think what I'll do is this: I'll take the start of that section up to the sentence where it starts to go into the 22nd year of Zhenguan, &c., starting from the previous page, since the text is really all a description of the Kyrgyzs up to that point. See if that helps...  --Nlu (talk) 00:48, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Support and Supplementation to the Translations from the History of Yuan
"吉利吉思亦作乞力吉思又作乞兒吉思即今之哈薩克今俄羅斯稱哈薩克曰乞兒吉思謂乞兒義謂四十吉思為女語出回紇古時匈奴以漢地四十女嫁夫居此故蒙是稱與元史說和又即唐之黠戛斯唐書曰黠戛斯古堅昆國也地當伊吾之西焉耆北白山之旁或曰居勿曰結骨其種雜丁零乃匈奴西鄙"

... Actually, by this point, I am realizing that the text is now quoting from the New Book of Tang — largely, with some textual differences but largely the same. (See New Book of Tang, vol. 217, part 2 — the part of the text I typed out should enable you to find the passage relatively quickly. Would that be sufficient for your purpose?

As far as the translation is concerned, the only sentence that appears to be relevant to the Are surname itself is the sentence "其君曰「阿熱」，遂姓阿熱氏" ("their ruler was known as "Are," so they took the surname of Are"). Anything else you need? A lot of what we know about what the Chinese thought are now better known as fairly inaccurate... --Nlu (talk) 01:12, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * can you translated the stub at 孟喬芳.Rajmaan (talk) 03:43, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll look into it... To be honest, I am not that familiar with Ming/Qing military structure, so translating titles is always a bit worrisome to me.  Remind me in a few days if I still hadn't done anything by that point.  --Nlu (talk) 03:47, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Category:People from the West Midlands (county) executed by hanging
Category:People from the West Midlands (county) executed by hanging, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 08:12, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Croesus
Hi Nlu, Croesus wasn't Greek, he was actually Lydian, and the tradition has it that he did not die on the pyre, though one scholar at least has argued that he did. I haven't touched your category, since this looks to be a project of yours and figure you'll know the best way to correct this.  davidiad { t } 16:42, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually do appreciate your input on this. I found it somewhat questionable but decided to put it in.  Now that there's another opinion from you, I'll remove it, since it's not well-attested.  --Nlu (talk) 16:58, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Glad to help (I rarely can). Another classically minded editor and I were concerned about your state of mind [ ;-) ] when we started seeing these exacting death categories pop up on our watchlists. She suggested, which would (as far as I know) only have Aeschylus. If you have any doubts about an ancient Greek or Roman manner of death category, please feel free to drop a note on my talk page.  davidiad { t } 19:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * :-) Thanks.  --Nlu (talk) 21:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:People&#39;s Republic of China musicians
Category:People&, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Mike Selinker (talk) 18:30, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:People&#39;s Republic of China composers
Category:People&, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Mike Selinker (talk) 18:30, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:People&#39;s Republic of China painters
Category:People&, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Mike Selinker (talk) 18:31, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:People&#39;s Republic of China landscape painters
Category:People&, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Mike Selinker (talk) 18:31, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:People&#39;s Republic of China calligraphers
Category:People&, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Mike Selinker (talk) 18:32, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Naqshbandi Khufiyya Sufi
Can you remove all categories relating to Naqshbandi Khuffiya Sufism from all Ma Clique arricles who arenot members of Ma Anliang's family? Ma Haiyan's family was Gedimu Laojiao Sunni Muslims, I'm not sure about Ma Qianling's family, but you better remove that to because Ma Fuxiang and Ma Bufang both supported the Islamic Modernist Yihewani.

Only Ma Anliang and his family definitely belonged to a Sufi order since his family was in charge of the menhuan, he was a feudalist, traditionalist and anti modernist since Sufism was undermined by the Yihewani.Rajmaan (talk) 04:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you should feel free to do it. :-) I don't feel well-versed enough in the area to affirmatively do so, and Wikipedia is a collaborative project where, really, folks who know more about the area (like you do) should take the lead on this, I think...  --Nlu (talk) 09:40, 9 April 2013 (UTC)