User talk:Odd nature/Archive1

Creation-evolution controversy Intro
My alterations to the Creation-evolution controversy were thoroughly discussed at Talk:Creation-evolution_controversy. Please do not revert them without first discussing. Hrafn42 23:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

RE: Soapbox
LOL, my contributions are objective, using reliable mainstream sources, not science blogs like Panda's thumb and TalkOrigins. BTW, my talk page is not a soapbox. ImprobabilityDrive 22:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * You say "science blogs" as if it were a Bad Thing. Sorry my advice has fallen on deaf ears. Odd nature 23:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * With edits like this and this removing critical sourced content which has the net effect of promoting one side's very partisan view of the event, you can't blame us for being concerned about your using Wikipedia ID articles as a soapbox to promote the ID viewpoint. Odd nature 23:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * NPR is not a parisan to the controversy. Science blogs are very interested, whereas NPR is disinterested.  ImprobabilityDrive 23:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The NPR source made no reference to the significance of the event relative to other more notable events like Supreme Court cases. Odd nature 00:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * this edit is to make the article more accurate. If you want to point out that he was not paid by the Smithsonian, try to figure out a way to express it better.  Being unpaid and being unpaid by SI are two different things.  ImprobabilityDrive 23:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Not when the basis for his complaint was job discrimination. If you're being being paid, you don't have a job. Try reading all the sources there, not just those that support your personal take on the matter. Odd nature 00:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * And this edit is being bold while defending NPOV. Reliable, mainstream, and well respected sources were used for the contribution.  ImprobabilityDrive 23:59, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Which had the net effect of once again promoting the very partisan view that you've been promoting. That's called bowdlerizing / white washing, not being bold while defending NPOV. NPOV was the version you gutted. Sorry. Odd nature 00:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Good job with the article. I bet we've wasted more words on Sternberg, than all of the rest of the internet added together.  You'd think that Sternberg is trying to get us to do this to boost his street cred with the creationist gang!!!!  Orangemarlin 00:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

reverts
Hi. Blanket reverts should be explained on talk pages. Please join the discussion there, before overturning changes. &mdash; Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 23:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey
I was told you were one of the "good guys" by one of the good guys. Welcome!!! There's about 30 articles where the good guys are needed, so please show up if you can! Orangemarlin 06:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry
Although just a bystander, I want to say sorry for incivility that you were the object of (mentioned in AN/I). I am on a campaign to say sorry for others (just like people who remember others on National Sorry Day.Conmatrix 15:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

ResearchID.org
A tag has been placed on ResearchID.org, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because it is an article about a certain website, blog, forum, or other web content that does not assert the importance or significance of that web location. Please read our criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 7 under Articles, as well as notability guidelines for websites. Please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources which verify their content.

Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait a while for you to add contextual material, please affix the template  to the page, and put a note on Talk:ResearchID.org. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Thanks. The Evil Spartan 16:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Free Speech on Evolution
A tag has been placed on Free Speech on Evolution, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article seems to be blatant advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the general criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 11, as well as the guidelines on spam.

If you can indicate why the subject of this article is not blatant advertising, you may contest the tagging. To do this, please add  on the top of the page and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would help make it encyclopedic, as well as adding any citations from reliable sources to ensure that the article will be verifiable. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this.

About removing talk page comments
I noted your edit summary regarding another user's removal of talk page comments. Have a look at Refactoring talk pages - sometimes removing talk page comments is appropriate and justified, when the comments stray away from constructive discussion about improving an article. -Amatulic 23:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Intelligent_design&action=history (cur) (last) 22:57, 26 June 2007 Odd nature (Talk | contribs) (120,455 bytes) (Restore comment. I wouldn not remove the comments of others here Yqbd or you'll find yourself in more hot water than you can handle) Talk:Intelligent_design says '''This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.''' --Yqbd 23:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The Three Revert Rule
Please read WP:3RR, you don't seem to know what it says while saying someone violated it at intelligent design. --Yqbd 13:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Not vandalism
Vandalism defines vandalism. My edits were not vandalism by that definition. Just because I'm using an IP does not mean I'm necessarily a vandal. --216.125.49.252 20:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Category:Signatory of "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism"
I've already queried this decision here: User talk:Radiant! and received a response here User talk:Hrafn42. The two Admins involved don't seem to feel any need to follow WP:CONS (see User:Kbdank71) and I am contemplating appealing the decision to Deletion review. Hrafn42 17:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * "I'd hold off on filing a review until FM responds to my request to restore the category based on it being a bogus deletion" Will do. Kbdank71 seems to be digging them in deeper on Radiant!'s talk page -- effectively setting his own opinions above explicit Wikipedia policy. I get the distinct impression that the CFD crowd are a gang of petty tyrants, collectively working to boss others around. Some more transparency/oversight in that area might be worth while. Hrafn42 17:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh we certainly do follow consensus, but consensus on Wikipedia is not a headcount. Rather than by weight of numbers, deletion debates are decided by weight of argument, and backing policies/guidelines; we have several pages such as WP:AADD that elaborate on (and warn against) commonly employed fallacious arguments. In this particular case, while it may be nice to have a list of people who have signed a certain document, signing a document is not a defining characteristic for the people who sign it, and hence not considered practical for categorization. Cat'ing people by their actions (rather than their nature) leads to dozens of superfluous cats on most biography articles, which is considered undesirable. HTH!  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  08:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Radiant! has (after a series of wild, unsubstantiated and generally irrelevant accusations and arguments on his part) has deleted the entire thread over at his talk page (last version before deletion here:). Have you heard back from FM? Hrafn42 14:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure, only if you consider the comments of admins such as yourself to "keep" fatally flawed in some way. But that sounds like a personal judgement and awfully arbitrary to me. The usual reply to that sort of reasoning is "Who are you to judge?" or "Who died and appointed you God?". I think you were way out of line and acting on personal bias. Sorry, but there it is.


 * Read Guide_to_deletion. It says "The purpose of the discussion is to achieve consensus upon a course of action." There was no consensus there. If there is, show it to me. Also read Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators. It says nothing about discounting comments made in good faith. Odd nature 17:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * And Guide_to_deletion says "Please also note that closing admins are expected and required to exercise their judgment in order to make sure that the decision complies with the spirit of all Wikipedia policy and with the project goal." --Kbdank71 17:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I have asked for a deletion review of Category:Signatory of "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism". You might want to participate in the deletion review. Hrafn42 17:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:AADD appears to cover only the most obvious non-arguments in any case, and as far as I can see none of the 'keep' arguments were covered by it in any case - a point that I've pre-emptively made on the review. Hrafn42 18:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Reversion of undo
Hi, Odd nature. I reverted your undo of my contributions to Sun Myung Moon tax fraud and conspiracy conviction.

You did not "NPOV" it, you merely undid all my changes. Please explain in talk how you feel my version "promoted the UC's views over a dispassionate recitation of bare facts". --Uncle Ed 12:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You know,
You know, it would really help if the three of you stopped digging in and ceased throwing around accusations, and instead focused on the content. It is very simple: a category here is always going to be incomplete, and is going to lack additional information on the signing people, e.g. their degrees and states of origin. A list is therefore a more comprehensive way of showing this information. Some of us are trying to improve accessibility here, and others are mistaking that for evil censorship, or something. Change category to list, problem solved - it's that simple.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  10:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Coming from you Radiant!, that's hilarious (pot meet 'canvassing'-blackened kettle). Odd Nature, if you want to see a really silly accusation, have a look at Kbdank71's one at User talk:FeloniousMonk. :D Hrafn42 15:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I was addressing ON, not you. I would therefore appreciate a response from him.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  09:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You may be right Radiant!, I'll take a deep breath next time. If you keep in mind that we're relatively new here, I'll keep in mind that you're not and prolly know more than us. Odd nature 17:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, you need to see this
We've hurt Gnixon's feelings. :( Orangemarlin 07:29, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Requests for comment/Gnixon
Since you've been a target of Gnixon's various POV-pushing and civility issues, you should probably comment. I've used several diffs, including a bogus ANI that he posted with you as the target. Orangemarlin 17:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Sheldrake's notion of morphogenetic and morphic fields
Hi Odd Nature. I see you left a comment about a propose merge of Morphogenetic field with Morphogenetic field (Rupert Sheldrake), and then deleted it. Actually, I'd really appreciate folks with an interest making a comment here, because if there is a clear consensus &mdash; and I think there will be &mdash; then it is less likely to cause problems when I act on that consensus. Here's the background. These actions &mdash; of which I approve &mdash; were taken before I knew of their existence. I've been involved in the following: I'd welcome some input! -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 08:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A few days ago, an article named morphogenetic field was moved to Morphogenetic field (Rupert Sheldrake) for obvious reasons.
 * A new stub article was set up at morphogenetic field, for the concept as used in conventional biology.
 * A merge was proposed from Morphogenetic field (Rupert Sheldrake) into Morphic field
 * A brief edit war erupted as someone opposed to the merge kept deleting the flags. This was resolved.
 * Another editor made a counter proposal. Merge Morphogenetic field (Rupert Sheldrake) with morphogenetic field.
 * Discussion now taking place mostly at talk page of Morphic field, with some flurries at  talk page of Morphogenetic field (Rupert Sheldrake).

Our pain
High time to protect the page I'd say. See what we've had to put with at the ID articles. Odd nature 18:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You're not kidding. Then add up all of the creationist articles, and it's a wonder we're not drinking to get through these articles.  Orangemarlin 19:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Reversion on Critical Analysis of Evolution
I'd just like to discuss your reversion of my edit on the Critical Analysis of Evolution, and give my reasons for them.

First of all, I felt that some of the words used, like "undermine" or "religious ploy" seemed un-nessecarily emotionally charged, so I removed them in favor of more neutral words, like "halt", or "argument". maybe "strategy" or something similar instead of "argument".

also, I felt that "which the scientific community says there are none" has already been stated enough in this article, and broke up that sentence too much, so I removed it. maybe make it another sentence, if you feel it should be stated here.

and finally, I thought that the section regarding new mexico now gives more complete information on how exactly the claim is false, and avoids speculation on how or why they claim this.

none of the other edits I made seem particularly contentious. at the very least, I believe that the section regarding New Mexico is improved. If you disagree, let me know what you think. Cygnus Alpha 02:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

invitation
Cyrusc 20:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions
Please stop edit warring on this page. Friday (talk) 22:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Give me a break. One reversion does not an edit war make. Don't come back around here making baseless accusations again. Odd nature 23:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's true, one revert is not necessarily edit warring. But, I believe what happened is that you removed a long-standing section of a page with no prior discussion.  Then, when this was reverted, you removed it again, without getting any kind of consensus on the talk page.  This is inappropriate.  Friday (talk) 23:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think that you're intentionally misrepresenting the situation, but you have to admit that the talk page shows only a 3/2 split in favor to keep, and that that is hardly a consensus either way. One other editor removed the exact same content today. There's no clear consensus, don't imply that there is. Odd nature 00:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * On the talk page, I see myself, Amarkov, and Skeezix1000 opposing the removal, and only you supporting it. The other removal was apparently a mistake, see User_talk:Orangemarlin.  Removing a whole section of a page without prior discussion is a pretty bold thing to do.  This doesn't mean it's always wrong, but it means you should tread carefully and be sensitive to the objections of other editors.  Friday (talk) 00:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Orangemarlin does not support that content anymore than I do. Go ask him. The warning made to him there and yours here would smack of bullying if they weren't made by editors I've had some respect for in the recent past. And removing a section of an oft-misused and contested essay is not a particularly bold thing to do in my experience, particularly since I made a section to discuss it on the talk page. Also, being sensitive to the objections of other editors cuts both ways, Friday. Like overreacting to a single revert. Odd nature 00:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

My name
Please use my proper name, I consider Dragonsbreath offensive. Dragons flight 00:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Nice
 Your motto is pretty good too. &#0149;Jim 62 sch&#0149; 23:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced statements about Living Persons
Hi, I see that you've reverted my deletion of an unsourced statement at D. James Kennedy. This statement was tagged back in February and remains unsourced, hence it was deleted. You might want to peruse the Wikipedia policy at WP:BLP, which states that: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles...". I've again deleted the statement accordingly, until a reliable source is, in fact, provided. Thanks for your understanding.  JGHowes talk  -  12:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Redirects out of mockery names
Your opinion will be greatly appreciated please comment. --יודל 12:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

You forgot
COI--Filll 23:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

'Example' on Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns
Hi. If you think this is "important", then could you please copyedit it so that it is at least comprehensible. Even with the DI "teacher's guide" & the full context of Dr Bruce Alberts' comments, I (hardly a newbie in this area) found this sentence to be highly confusing, and couldn't really work out how it was applicable to the topic. Hrafn42 18:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think your copyedit makes any relevance this bit might have any clearer. I'm not even sure if it counts as a quotemine as, although it loses a slight amount of context, Alberts' words seem to be expressing their original intent that ID is useful for teaching about what is/isn't science because it is a perfect example something claimed to be science, but failing to measure up by every reasonable criteria. It is at worst a "reframing" (to use a word Moulton has been overusing) of college-level philosophy of science into high school science. It is at best, marginally relevant to a campaign for the indirect teaching of ID, and so not really appropriate as a sole example of it. Hrafn42 03:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The quotemining is on the DI's part. Albert was talking about usefulness in philosophy, the DI uses it to justify its use in science classes. Odd nature 16:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The full paragraph is:

He is talking about "all those who teach college biology" making a philosophy of science point in "college science classes". The crucial point of what Alberts is saying is in the final sentence: "It is through the careful analysis of why intelligent design is not science that students can perhaps best come to appreciate the nature of science itself." The DI quote contains this sentence (quite counter-productively to their own aims, I might add), so it is hard to claim that they are misrepresenting Alberts' point. At worst, they are reframing it slightly. As such it doesn't really provide a striking example. Hrafn42 17:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Look, it's an important DI doc and needs to stay in. Trust me. Odd nature 17:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Extreme cognitive dissonance here: Casey Luskin actually wrote an important document!?!?! Casey Luskin? When did he get the brain transplant? Likewise it is so important that I'd never even heard of it before. It strikes me as being a piece of low-grade inconsequential scribbling from a low-grade incompetent hack. I won't delete it without further discussion, but you must allow me to be highly skeptical that it is more important or more relevant than anything else that Luskin farts out (on a daily basis, to no more attention than the occasional crow of laughter from the blogosphere). What is its importance in the overall scheme of things? Hrafn42 18:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This recent press release is a perfect example of why Luskin is an ineffective laughingstock. Why should we take his "teachers' guide" any more seriously (incidentally, is the linked pic the full document, or just the first page)? Hrafn42 03:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Irreducible complexity
If you disagree with my decision that the book cover is not fair use in the article, please take the issue to Fair use review or some other forum. Do not just revert the image back in. -Thanks Nv8200p talk 21:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

re: Irreducible complexity
You recently made an edit in the ongoing dispute over the appropriateness of Image:Darwinsblackbox.jpg on this page. Please join debate at Image talk:Darwinsblackbox.jpg. Rossami (talk) 01:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Filll's comment
Hi, you signed up to an "inside comment" by Filll at Requests for comment/Moulton, but after a large part of Filll's comment had been deleted by Moulton who added his own comment above where you signed. Please have a look and decide if you want to review your support. Thanks, .. dave souza, talk 18:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Rosalind Picard
You guys are focusing on the wrong part of the sentance.

The first part is poorly worded. But the nesxt part is OR. And without the next part, the first part is an hanging non-sequitor without context, so really doesn't belong.--ZayZayEM 23:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * See my comments to Jim.


 * I really find it annoying, that just because I am somewhat agreeing with a pretty obvious crank, that some pretty obvious OR is being let through - and my quibble on the semantic nature of a different sentance is being ignored. I'm willing to let the latter go now, but not the OR.--ZayZayEM 01:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Your recent edits
Hi, there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. On many keyboards, the tilde is entered by holding the Shift key, and pressing the key with the tilde pictured. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot 00:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration request
A request for arbitration involving you has been filed here. Please view the request, and add any statements you feel are necessary for the ArbCom to consider in deciding whether to hear the dispute. Videmus Omnia Talk  03:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Denialism and neologism
I just wanted to say congrats on finding that 1927 source. I presume you used Google books to search for that. Having not used this resource before, was your search something like this? Ben Hocking (talk 12:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

GW - controversy
The stuff about funding is on page three of the paper. Under Acknowledgments on the right column. Ciao, Brusegadi 21:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

User:BCST2001
Hey Odd Nature, I saw that you put up a suspected sock puppet tag on the above names person's account and he blanked the page. I reverted it twice, but he blanked it again. He also keeps blanking his talk page everytime Will Beback puts something on it. I am too much of a rookie to know the policies regarding this and I know user pages are somewhat of a personal thing for users. I would rather not get dragged into a revert war with him though I was lead to believe blanking of pages and removing warnings was against the rules. Just curious. Cheers!!! Baegis 22:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of Neo-Darwinism
Hi there, could I please ask you to reword your proposal for deletion. Your opinions about an editor's beliefs and motivations have no relevance to if an article fits the deletion policy. Tim Vickers 22:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Since this comment was causing the discussion to move off-topic I have hidden this section of your comment. Even if you feel that an editor is acting in this manner, making this kind of attack in a formal process both unwise and uncivil. Tim Vickers 23:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Not a personal attack, but an accurate characterization of a chronic time-waster. Please restore my comment. Odd nature 23:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You can of course restore the comment if you wish. However, I would strongly advise you not to do so. Tim Vickers 01:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No need, he's proved my point for me far better than my comment ever could have. Odd nature 16:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree, the characterization was warranted, read WP:SPADE. Editors who consistently push a POV are POV pushers. And when their POV pushing becomes disruptive, such as creating POV forks, prompting AFDs, etc., pointing out their problems saves the community a lot wasted time. Odd nature 23:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The characterisation is accurate: I see no problem. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....  &#0149;Jim 62 sch&#0149;  00:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi again. I'm puzzled by your comment that by removing what some editors see as a personal attack, I'm showing bias due to me having a "dog in this race". Could you explain what you meant by that? Tim Vickers 00:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think that was directed at you tim. ornis ( t ) 01:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

"Look, it's an important DI doc and needs to stay in. Trust me."
You still haven't explained why this obscure document by DI feather-brained featherweight Casey Luskin is "important". Could you please do so. Otherwise I will have to consider re-deletion of this apparently completely non-notable & highly-marginal-relevance "example". Hrafn 42 TalkStalk 03:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Monk's talk page
Listen, I can speak however I choose. Sometimes I swear, sometimes I don't. E kala mai, but I wasn't being uncivil, as you would like to suggest. I said the call he made was fucking terrible (My opinion). I didn't say he was fucking terrible, nor any other comment on his person. Saying a decision was fucking terrible is not uncivil. After, I very politely asked him what to do next. You seem to keep wanting to comment, so you can do so here. No need to waste more space on Monk's page. Here, have a fucking flower in a sign that I hold no fucking grudge against you, nor anyone else involved. Fuck, fuck, fuck. :-) Mahalo nui loa. --Ali&#39;i 20:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No you can't. A good number of editors and even admins have been blocked for swearing. But hey, don't take my word for it, keep going as you are and things will sort themselves out soon enough. Odd nature 20:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * --Ali&#39;i 20:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * . ornis ( t ) 20:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Odd nature 20:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll take my chances. Mahalo! --Ali&#39;i 21:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Why did I know you'd say that? You and your pal are on the same track it seems. Odd nature 21:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, now, aren't you just the cutest little Wikipedian ever. Basically threatening me with a rushed-through, out-of-process community ban. I wish I could adopt you. Alas, I can see you have no pretense of dropping this matter, so this will just have to be my last comment here. For shame. Right after I had offered you my flower. It's okay, you can still keep it. Aloha, a hui hou. --Ali&#39;i 21:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You came to my page on your own accord. And I'm not the one swearing at others. Good luck with all that. Odd nature 21:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits to D. James Kennedy
You have removed important additions (date Wikifying and fact tags), restored a non-primary ref that is nothing more than a second-hand account of the ref before it, and you are trying to "restore" a link that doesn't work anymore due to changes to the Coral Ridge website. Jinxmchue 20:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You clearly do not understand the role of primary and secondary sources, read WP:NOR. And tags misused to discredit a particular viewpoint ought to be removed. Odd nature 20:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You clearly do not understand that articles don't need to be cluttered up with unnecessary references. You have the AU source already, so why do you need a source that provides a second-hand account of the AU source? And I would LOVE to see your explanation as to how the tags I added were used to discredit anything. (Seems you are hell-bent on violating WP:ASG with that baseless accusation.) Jinxmchue 20:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Reading your blog, you've got a lot of nerve hiding behind WP:AGF. We're way past assume you're here to do anything but white washing that article. Odd nature 21:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * So you admit that you are willfully violating AGF. Wow. Just wow. And I would like to know exactly what on my blog you found that makes you say what you said. Anything real or just the fact that I have beliefs like everyone else? Jinxmchue 21:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No, really. I mean it. What exactly on my blog led you to make that statement? Jinxmchue 01:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I know nothing about this particular article (nor do I wish to), but ON is right to point out that secondary sources are preferred over primary ones. See the WP:PSTS sub-section of WP:NOR. That said, I hate when people remove cn or fact tags because they assume that such tags are being used to discredit a particular viewpoint. If it is a particular viewpoint, then it needs a citation. If it doesn't have a citation, then it requires one of those tags. Occasionally, I've added those tags to statements I've made when I don't yet have the source to back up what I'm saying and I think others will be able to locate the sources more quickly. Ben Hocking (talk 19:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

A notice
See here. Jinxmchue 21:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi, I'm responding from WQA. Jinxmchue raised concerns that you were attacking him. While I don't feel that's quite the case, it might have been possible to be slightly more polite to him/her. However, I realize this might be an issue addressed in WP:SPADE, given that I didn't get any diffs that might indicate who was correct here. So I guess my message is that even when you think the other person is clearly in the wrong, politeness doesn't hurt (at least not too much). Best, -- B figura  (talk) 23:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

NOR
Please take more care in removing tags. If you take a look over the activity on WT:NOR, you can clearly see there is a very active debate going on regarding that section. I am not reverting you, because that policy has seen too much edit warring over the past several weeks, and because I'm unsure of the need for the tag. However, I would ask you to reconsider your action and take more care in the future to check the discussion page before reverting tags. Vassyana 22:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * A handful of malcontents bent on changing a core content policy does not a valid dispute make. Clearly lifting the protection of the page was premature. Odd nature 22:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There are a number of long-term and respected editors who advocate a reform and/or removal of the section. Please do not impugn their intelligence or motives as a whole. It would behoove you to actually review the history of the discussion, instead of making blanket insults. On your other point, considering the flurry of activity, I don't necessarily disagree about the protection. Vassyana 23:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

re: protection of Irreducible complexity
If you feel that a review of my action by other admins is appropriate, I strongly urge you to do so. I do not like my actions to be thought of as potentially biased. Before you do, however, I would ask you to carefully read what I actually wrote. In particular, please note that:
 * 1) I locked the page into the version that you support and that I do not.  That would not normally be the action of someone seeking to gain unfair advantage in a debate.
 * 2) I did not at any point participate in the edit war.
 * 3) My opinion on the change (expressed only on Talk) is actually quite tepid.
 * 4) What little involvement I have had in this particular dispute was disclosed up front.
 * 5) The block is time-limited and is intended to expire as soon as actual discussion replaces the edit war.

The principle of that part of the protection policy is to prevent the abuse of admin rights to gain a greater say or to lock in a version preferred by a participant in the edit war. If you can find other admins who feel that I violated the spirit of the policy, I will apologize to the community. Otherwise, I dislike having my motives impuned. Rossami (talk) 23:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

We've got to do better than this
You know that I am 100% behind our efforts on these subjects. However, your link is really a tertiary (hell, it may be a quaternary source). It's an NIH newsletter quoting someone giving a speech about Evolution, who isn't even giving his source. This 99.9% of scientists believing in evolution is plausible, but I've never actually seen a recent, verifiable, and reliable source on the matter. A number of us quote freely this number, but I cannot find the primary source. When we make quote like this, it sounds no different than the Creationists who bat about all kinds of strange numbers. I think we need to come up with the source. Orange Marlin Talk• Contributions 05:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see such a big issue with it since it is consonant with every other source from the scientific community that's being used here on the topic. Nevertheless, better sources are not a bad thing, but until such time as those surface, this will have to suffice. Odd nature 00:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Just remember, the evil Creationists aren't all pathetic losers reading poorly written blogs. Some are quite smart, and they can reason pretty well (despite concluding that someone created the universe).  If we're going to stand on principle, then we need to apply the same principles to us.  If we're going to make a statement, then let's use reliable sources.  What if this is an urban myth (or at least one based on 25 year old data)?  What if 25% of scientists actually believe in some level of Creationism.  We're pretty screwed.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 00:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, no doubt. But just to be clear that is a reliable source per WP:RS, WP:V and WP:NOR. I read and understand policy well, thank you. Compared to what I do everyday, this isn't that difficult. Odd nature 00:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not trying to be insulting here. I actually clicked on the link hoping it was going to be useful at places like Creation Museum.  Still worried it's an urban myth.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 00:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not insulted. I see no reason to be worried it's an urban myth at all. You think the National Institute of Health doesn't fact check it's internal publications? Do we have grounds to suspect that? I've never seen any. The source for the numbers the NIH article quotes, Brian Alters is a notable international leader in education just as they say, and was an expert witness in the Dover trial and has a impecable reputation. Don't take this the wrong way, but I think your doubts and characterization of him and the source are misplaced and incorrect. Maybe his Dover testimony will sway you or provide another source:   Odd nature 01:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I can't believe how this quote has been abused in Wikipedia. As much as I respect Brian Alters, this is just a number he gave off-hand during a lecture, with no evidence to back it up. The source is not reliable for the uses it has been given in some places of Wikipedia. It is a reliable source for the statement "Brian Alters claims that 99.9% of scientists believe in evolution", but not for the more general statement "99.9% of scientists believe in evolution". In some articles, such as Critical Analysis of Evolution, the quote is even attributed to NIH, making it sound like an official statement. The phrase is not even clear. Which scientists? All? It obviously depends on the specialty. Level of support for evolution at least gives several sources, including one that says that since there are 700 known earth or life scientists who believe in creationism out of an estimated 500,000, therefore 99.85% believe in evolution. Maybe Alters was referring to this estimate, despite its dubious methodology (I don't have access to the original source, but from what is quoted in the Wikipedia article, it looks like a prime example of "how to lie with statistics": count the 700 hundred they could find and divide them by the entire population; I seriously doubt that they asked all 500,000 people). On the other hand, there is the Gallup poll that says that 5% of scientists (including those with training outside biology) identified themselves as creationists. I find this latter number much more believable. To conclude, the problem is not that NIH doesn't fact-check its publications. I trust that Alters really said what is printed there. The problem is that this seems like a casual remark (not the main topic of his lecture) that has been given a lot of undue weight. --Itub 09:58, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Let's be clear. Scientists do not believe in anything.  Beliefs are in the realm of faith, religion, Homeopathy and Sasquatch.  Scientists may accept evolution as a fact or agree with the hypothesis based on rigorous scientific analysis.  Creationism is definitely a belief.  I could argue that you could "believe" in Creationism and accept evolution as a scientific fact.  However, I do agree that this quote about 99.4% (the one I see most quoted) is abused and needs verification.  BTW, I'd like to see the list of 700.  I don't think they are what you claim they are.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 22:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not claiming anything about these 700! I just quoted the number from the Newsweek article. I'm just interested in having some real numbers, instead of recklessly quoting a number that may have just been used as a figure of speech for saying "the vast majority" as if it were the result of a real statistical study. I don't doubt for a second that "the vast majority" believe (or whatever verb you prefer) in evolution. It's just that 99.9% is too round a number to be believed. One would have to survey a representative sample with several thousand people in order to come up with a number of that precision, and I have seen no indication that this number came from anyone doing that. --Itub 08:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Scientists don't "believe" in science. If you don't understand the basic principles of science, it's difficult to lend credibility to either your motives of your conclusions. Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 13:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Please look up "believe" in the dictionary. It has many perfectly common meanings that have nothing to do with religion, including "holding an opinion", "consider to be true", "accepting the evidence of", etc. I'm not going to write a verbose phrase such as "consider that the balance of evidence supports the theory" when a perfectly acceptable English word suffices. I am a practicing scientist, by the way, and I do "believe" in evolution. On the other hand, I have my doubts about your ability to think critically when you can accept a misquoted pulled-out-of-someones-arse number as if it were a fact. Good scientists have to be skeptical, even when it is inconvenient. --Itub 16:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Intelligent design
Hi, I'm in the process of restoring revisions showing the development of Intelligent design: if you check the timeline and the references cited, you'll find them much more accurate than the previous version which you restored. In particular, note that the DI didn't get involved until 1995. and Johnson was dismissive of ID until that point when he began talking about "ID scholars". Do please ask me if there are any points you want me to reconsider, .. dave souza, talk 18:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)