User talk:Ogress/Archive 59

Reference errors on 20 June
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Shang dynasty
Hi! Ogress. I got the message on my talk. I have quite a bit to say on this matter (I don't know if you have encountered that user's previous edits), but I was wondering if you can leave me an email address (it can just be any; not your personal one) where I can discuss in detail with you.--Balthazarduju (talk) 09:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * When I try to email you, it says "This user has chosen not to receive email from other users." Ogress smash! 10:18, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I was just going to email to you through gmail.--Balthazarduju (talk) 10:34, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello Ogress. It seems Dispute resolution noticeboard has new development since there is a volunteer moderator. Can you notify users like Lathrindor, Zanhe, Kanguole to come back to the discussion? Thanks!--Balthazarduju (talk) 17:18, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Please comment in your own section
Your complaint about the length of a post at the dispute resolution noticeboard was in my section, not in yours. I have moved it. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:19, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Dispute board Shang dynasty
Hi Ogress, it looks like on the Dispute_resolution_noticeboard, Easy772 has added his last Craniometrics discussion from the Talk:Shang dynasty to the noticeboard. Can Easy772 do that? The section in the Dispute resolution noticeboard is called "Talk:Shang dynasty#Language", but Easy772 just decided to add these physical craniometrics discussion onto the noticeboard even though the discussion was about something different. I think we should let users like Lathrindor, Zanhe, Kanguole know about this new development right?--Balthazarduju (talk) 21:55, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's not protocol. And incredibly typical of him. Ogress smash! 21:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you notify Zanhe and Lathdrinor to the noticeboard since they are both users involved? Both Zanhe and Lathrindor so far hasn't responded to the latest development yet.--Balthazarduju (talk) 07:32, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

A discussion involving you in ANI
Hi, I have created a discussion on the recent issues regarding WP:Caste system In India in ANI and specifically reported suspicious behavior of concerted behavior of a group of editors including you. Have a look. Regards ABTalk 08:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Uh... you didn't provide a link. Ogress smash! 08:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, here we go. ABTalk 08:59, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

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Samuel 2010
I've got the 2010 reprint. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   04:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh! Excellent. I tried to get it from the library but no go. Can you find cites? Ogress smash! 04:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Ehm... I meant to say that the references say "2010," because I added that stuff. What cites are needed? Good book, by the way.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   04:07, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * IDK I didn't flag it. Whatever the sentences claim and it is cited for. Stuff about shramana tradition not being a "reaction" to the establishment, but rather a separate tradition stemming from the same source that the Brahmanical tradition came from. Um, it's been ages, but I recall discussion of deities like Indra? And other stuff dating back to the earliest periods. Basically that section is like "Buddhism isn't hippies rebelling, it's an equally old and independent tradition". Check the index for shramana, proto-shramana, etc. Ogress smash! 04:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * You're referring to Dhyāna in Buddhism, right?  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   04:33, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * ... yes, the origins bit. I think it must have been originally pasted from another page with cites complete? Ogress smash! 04:59, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

June 2015
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 * (He was not Ramananda, the founder of the Ramanandi Sampradaya.) When Ramashrama discovered that Vitthalapant had left his family behind to become a monk, he

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 * the branch of the Drukpa lineage descended from Tsangpa Gyare's brother Lhambum  . The lineage passed to Sengge Sherap's  brother Sengge Rinchen (, 1258-

Removing Hinduism sidebar from Ajivika and Carvaka pages
Hi, I agree with you that Ajivika and Carvaka are not part of Hinduism. Can you pls help remove the Hinduism sidebar from these pages? I had removed them from the pages but has reverted them. -Mohanbhan (talk) 08:42, 27 June 2015 (UTC)


 * the sidebar is Hindu philosophy, and both Ajivika and Carvaka are listed in the sidebar, which means it should be in the articles.Editor2020, Talk 17:22, 27 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Here is the first line from Ajivika: "Ajivika (Sanskrit: आजीविक, ) is one of the nāstika or "heterodox" schools of Indian philosophy." Editor2020, Talk 17:25, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
 * This conversation needs to happen on the talk page. Ogress smash! 19:23, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Indic Language Removal
Hi, I was reading the policy conversations you mentioned on this subject and had a hard time figuring out what their actual conclusions were. I was wondering if you could explain or point me to a place where it simply states the policy instead of the debate over it. Either way this seems like a troubling policy to implement for historical articles. As a linguist knows that removing the devanagari AND the IAST from Sanskrit articles means that there is vital information missing from the page that the IPA does not provide. To be able to use any of these articles academically (which I do, studying for my masters in yoga studies and history) one needs to have the standards of Indic academia addressed. If you were academically studying these topics, the IPA is useless to you, and only the IAST matters. That's the only reason there is an International Alphabet of Sanskrit Transliteration that is nearly universal in Indic studies. I understand removing excessive modern indic translations with their thousand regional variations, but this is removing troves of important information about a static and dead language, and you're not even replacing it with the IPA first, so the next editor will have a harder time making a proper IPA transliteration. Very concerning. It feels like watching books burn.Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 16:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Or is it just in headers, keeping the infobox?Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:INDICSCRIPTS. I put it in my edit comments. All-caps, especially with WP: prefixed to it like WP:RS, indicates it is a link: WP:MOSISLAM, WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. Some you will see frequently without links like OR (original research) NPOV (neutral point of view) and RS (reliable sourcing), which are actually not abbreviations but refer to WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:OR. Ogress smash! 17:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Like I said, I read your comments and a huge amount of the debate and it's rehash. I was looking for a link to where the policy is spelled out, not debated. But my larger point stands. If you're not going to put the 'preferred' IPA up first, you're just taking useful (or arugably vital) info down. I just want to know the exact policy re: IAST which isn't directly addressed there, because the way I see this policy enforced is concerning.Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 17:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

And then this is even more confusing, since that page is self conflicting []Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 17:24, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * And there are multiple places where wikipedia mentions either [] or [] as the standard for Indic translation (not IPA), and that is part of what you removed from the balaram page in addition to the Devanagari.Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 17:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually I should say [] for sanskrit, [] for modern Indic languages. I'm only really concerned over the sanskrit pages though.Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 17:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I indented your comments to make it easier to read. As for Balarāma (see below), that was in fact my bad: I have restored it. I have sleep deprivation, I apologise.


 * However, WP:INDICSCRIPTS is a two-sentence policy that is not ambiguous. I'll repeat it here: "There is community consensus that the lead sentence of an article should not contain any regional or Indic language script. It is suggested that IPA be used for help with pronunciation." IPA is usually not included by editors anywhere except in regards to modern spoken languages (like Hindi or Tamil) where pronunciation isn't obvious, although I doubt its efficacy except for a pretty select audience. Most of the time people don't actually know IPA if they know the correct pronunciation: just look at the problems at the Odia (formerly Oriya) language, where the ISO (see below) is present but the phonetics are a total mess, because the posters who speak Odia are incoherent and also don't know IPA and the people who know IPA don't know what the Odia pronuciation of "Odia" is. I weighed in there to clarify that IPA doesn't even have a letter for the troublesome D/R consonant present in the word "Odia" in the first place...


 * If you want to include useful information for dead languages like Sanskrit and Prakrit, you don't want IPA, you want IAST for Sanskrit and National Library at Kolkata romanization, which is the industry standard for scholars as it is a lossless romanization of Sanskrit as in Balarāma. I suspect that is what you were after in the first place. These are the ISO standard: the only difference is that NLK is for non-Sanskrit languages, while IAST is literally just for Sanskrit. Thus NLK has short and long e and o, for example (ē, ō), sounds present even in the Prakrits, even including PāỊi, although in that language there appears to be no minimal pairs - it's subphonemic. Despite that, strict PāỊi romanisations often distinguish the two: ē in open syllables and e in closed ones, like Mettēya.


 * Also, since Devanagari was only adopted within the last 200 years for Sanskrit, it's ahistorical. You're normally dealing with a myriad of scripts: Pali, for example, is given Devanagari all over this Wikipedia when in fact it's pretty much never written in Devanagari, but in a variety of Pallava alphabets. That's also true of many Jain texts, which may be in Tamil alphabets. Ogress smash! 17:52, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Ah, good. I figure sanskrit terms either need IAST or devanagari for most academics to distinguish. The self conflicting part I was referring to was lower on the same page where it gives examples of how to render that still conflict with the other policy: [snip] Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 17:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Please indent your replies. True; that other policy is part of the problem when dealing with a committee-run organisation. Nonetheless, nearly everyone agrees that WP:INDICSCRIPTS is concise and very specific, and therefore should be followed as-is. , after all, is used in many places aside from the first sentence(s) of the lede. It is useful for etymology or in the body of the article. It's an all-purpose tool. Ogress smash! 18:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Dispute board Shang dynasty 2
Hello Ogress. On Dispute_resolution_noticeboard, Easy772 has wrote a draft of that Craniometrics content he wanted to add (from the Talk:Shang_dynasty) to the dispute resolution noticeboard. You and users such as and  should come to the noticeboard and look at it.--Balthazarduju (talk) 23:27, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

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Thanks for help on Daochuo
Looks like we both edited the same article recently. Thanks much for the help and expansions. Information is scant, so any information is appreciated. --Ph0kin (talk) 05:38, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

You have been mentioned in an ArbCom discussion
Talk Page Etiquette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Talk_Page_EtiquetteSoham321 (talk) 09:38, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk Page Etiquette arbitration case has been declined
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Dispute board Shang dynasty 3
Hello Ogress. I'm not sure if you've seen this page Requests for mediation/Shang Dynasty. In the section "Parties' agreement to mediation", both Kanguole and Easy772 have voiced their views. Would you gave your view on this?--Balthazarduju (talk) 20:39, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Is that RfM even active? I thought they went back to the talk page. Ughhh I can't even follow what is going on, no one notified me. Ogress smash! 23:20, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. Juding by the page, it seems Kanguole and Easy772 have voted, and maybe they are still waiting for votes?--Balthazarduju (talk) 23:42, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The RFM is waiting for responses from the editors as to whether they agree to take part in mediation. It appears that a bot should have notified you, and did not.  Robert McClenon (talk) 17:20, 7 July 2015 (UTC)