User talk:Oguz1/Archive 1

Archiving -- Not sure how to atuo-archive my talkpage. But it's all in my history if anybody wants to see it. Once I figure it out, I'll restore and re-archive. --Oguz1 20:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Ordu
I'm strongly trying to fight the temptation of reverting you at Ordu, don't make the decision easier please. Also, I advise you to review WP:STALK, consider this your warning.--Domitius 16:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * And this is coming from someone who has reverted every single contrib of mine at one time or another within the last 2 weeks. --Oguz1 17:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

1-week block
I have blocked you for violating WP:STALK, WP:CIVIL, WP:EW, WP:DE, as per the reports at WP:ANI and user talk:Aldux. Please do not violate Wikipedia policies and return to edit constructively. Rama's arrow 22:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Category
We have switched to a dynamic list for WikiProject Turkey participant list, so we don't have a list anymore but a category. Would be ok if I placed Category:WikiProject Turkey Wikipedians to your user page? It won't show, so don't worry about that. It is just that we have been trying to get WPTR on its feet and it would be nice if all participants would be accessible, also for a newsletter that will be launched in the future.. Cheers! Baristarim 19:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * ok, cool, thanks. --Oguz1 19:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if you would like you can take a look at WP:ARCHIVE. Just a note for future reference.. :) Once you learn, it is pretty easy afterwards. You can simply create a new page at User talk:Oguz1/Archive 1, cut-paste all the posts, and give a link to the archive on top of your talk page.. Baristarim 19:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * awesome, thanks --Oguz1 20:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Watch
Please watch my last contributions Special:Contributions/Makalp.Regards. Must . T  C 18:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

o.k. --Oguz1 12:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Re:Şebinkarahisar
Merhaba Oguz, it's cause the clash happened during the Armenian Genocide is why it is important to note it. 'karahisar was one of the few areas where Armenians took up arms to fight back to try and stop the spread of the AG to their towns and villages (like Musa Dağ, Urfa etc). It's important to note as to why there even was a resistance. Also, one of the books is co-authored by a non-Armenian. Anyway Richard G. Hovanissian is a credible person. Who else would cover such an incident anyway, doesn't matter if the source is an Armenian author. - Fedayee 19:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And i'm not arguing wether it encompassed the event's timeline either. I am saying the resistance is a self-defense against the Armenian Genocide itself. I am not here to debate with you wether my ancestors were killed by Ottomans or not. It was well-known that the Armenian millet was the most loyal of all millets. Minus the 2nd class citizenship and the lack of equal rights which culminated into more demands which then culminated into random massacres by Kurdish and Ottoman brigands, the Armenians thrived in the empire. It was when the young Turks eliminated Islam from the governing body and spread the noton of nationalism is when and why the Armenian Genocide happened. the ottoman army had as much Armenian soldiers -even more! - than all those foreign Armenians combined. They were stripped from their arms and put into forced labour battalions. The entire paragraph is 3-4 lines and you still make a fuss about it. I have provided references, and because you reject the notion of the AG, you refuse to have it there. This encyclopedia does not revolve around your rejection of its existance. Self-defense during a genocide is not terrorism, it is even comparable to the ghetto uprisings during the Holocaust. - Fedayee 15:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all, where do you see me calling you a murderer? Are you hallucinating? You claiming that the word genocide did not exist until after the 60s just proves to me you are doing this by bad faith and that you are lying. The word genocide was first coined by Raphael Lemkin in the 40s and then adopted by the UN in 1948 so you are clearly wrong on the history of the word. You are clearly also mistaken about what the Ottoman empire is. First of all, the Ottoman Empire was an Islamic Empire ruled by Sharia law. Sharia law, declares all non-muslims as 2nd class citizens. Sharia ask muslims to respect other religions but never will a christian = muslim. So what is this second class citizenship? It does not mean people won't thrive, there were very rich Armenians in Constantinople (Amiras) during the Sultan's reign. 2nd class as in, in a court of law, a muslim's testimony is more valuable than a christian's. A christian would need more witnesses (must be muslim) in order to be proven not guilty. Also, in addition to the state tax, christians jews etc would pay extra taxes because they weren't muslim. Besides all this, who says there weren't a number of people in government positions? Also, a christian did not have any right to carry a weapon, at any time (unless in the army, of course) but a muslim could. And the whole point of a genocide is for the victims not to know they are being killed. How on earth would they leave? Especially during the genocide. If you think that's my logic then I don't want to comment on my logic because an increasingly amount of scholars have accepted it as genocide, in fact Mr. Lemkin himself based the word genocide on the Armenian Genocide. It has not been proven to your eyes, the whole world knows that a genocide happened, it is merely Realpolitik that has kept it so long to be accepted as one. Increasingly countries are passing resolutions, including 2 of the "big 5" (Russia, France). If there was no such genocide, then why were Talaat, Djemal and Enver all tried in absentia? Why was the killer of Talaat set free? What about the German witnesses (Germany-Ottoman had an alliance during those times just in case you try and scream bias by the Germans). Where do you see the deaths in every Turkish city? Blatant exaggeration by your part because in 'karahisar it is 4 lines, references by 5 different sources. Also, I am talking about my family Mr. Oguz, you are not part of my family...do you know who my great-grandfather was..no, don't twist this into a geneology thing. I don't accuse you of genocide, I accuse the Ottoman government of genocide...basically what you're saying is every German is a genocidal maniac because of the Nazi party. Btw Gulbenkian (an AGBU president, a non-profit organization) died in 1955, ASALA was created in 1975...right. As stated above, I have also never said Armenians were not rich. I clearly said before ARMENIANS THRIVED. And if you do not reject the notion of the AG, why is it that you are making such a big deal out of this? Cut the acting. - Fedayee 21:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Mr FICE PERCENT Gulbenkian - the richest man of the 20th century and possibly ever - was an Ottoman Armenian official who was assigned by the Ottoman Emperor to represent Ottoman interests but sold out to the Brits and French and financed ASAL and other terrorist organizations.

I don't see the word "like" in there. Is this a lie you are saying? And there were no such terrorist groups back then. He was the president of the AGBU, read about them and what this organ is.

>I said the word "Armenian geocide" did not exist till 60s, it was called Armenan massacres for 90 years.

Again, distortion of facts. I have said Lemkin first coined the term genocide when studying the Armenian Genocide, meaning it has been used from that point on, it is the basis of the existence of the word. And I don't know if you're good w/ math but how can, according to you, something exist in the 60s but be called Armenian massacre for 90 years (if you calculate, the genocide happened 92 years ago, according to your logic, it has only been called a genocide for 2 years...LOL).

>The "big" countries passing genocide laws are the very ones that were fighting the Ottoman empire and supporting Armenians - of course they are going to pass laws (French-Armenian legion for god sakes!!!).

This one is funny, that alliance was during WW1, politics change my friend, the USA was allied w/ Russia then as well, so was Britain. You cannot base something on an alliance that happened decades ago. And the big 5 was merely an example, what about countries like Sweden? Swtizerland? Austria(an ally to the Ottomans decades ago btw)? Uruguay? Venezuela? etc etc.

>German witnesses never said it was "genocide", "massacre" they may have.

Because the term did not exist yet. But they do describe the intent to kill the entire race and that is enough. Armin Wagner's photos themselves are enough.

>EVERYBODy in the Ottoman empire was 2nd class, in fact everybody the Sultan was considered "slave", not in the terms used by the West but Sultan's Kole" as in his servants. Nobody had freedom or democracy it was an empire, and by nature Empires are opperisve. Most empires, inlusding roman, greek, british, dutch are even worse - they actually enslaved and "bred out" other races...let's not go there.

I will not explain this again. You are denying what the Ottoman Empire is...again. Read carefully what I wrote above about the Ottoman Empire and its laws.

>When saying Turks committed "genocide" that means you are calling Turks murderers...I'm not sure how else that can be interpreted.

Again, twisting my words into your sad interpretation. Ctrl + f the word "Turk" and try to find me using the word (except for Young Turks). I have clearly used the word Ottoman all along. Never did I personally call you a murderer, I have never used the word murderer, I have used the word genocide when refering to what the Ottoman authorities did in the past. And what is this...all Turks are saints or something? Check Ogun Samast if you wanna see a Turkish murderer.

>Where are the all the cities with deaths? I think they would have started with the Armenian Patriarch and Istanbul - but instead the sultan himslef sent people like Gulbenkian on tours of duty, had Armenian Governors, businessmen, Robert College, Near East Relief Orgs working ou tin the open, that's seems a bit ODD to say the very least.

I'm not sure what you are refering to by all this but I will try and respond. The Young Turks started on April 24 w/ the purging of the intellectuals and leaders in Constantinople. If you are refering to the Sultan, again, I have said over and over again that there were wealthy Armenians, businessmen etc. But when some Armenians started to demand equal citizenship rights (something against Sharia law), the Sultan massacred people to "set an example" (see Hamidian massacres). This is not a genocide because there isn't the intent to kill off the entire race but to make people "behave". Disgusting but the truth.

>If it's such a FACT and everybody knows this, I would not sit here and argue with you. I am not the only person who has questions and reservations about the subject - some things obviously do not add up. It's natural for me (or anyone) to question things. that doesnot mean I am accepting or rejecting things, I'm looking at the facts.

Everybody has questions. But believing in "facts" that you think are facts but which they are not, equals to denying the truth, the real facts which are hidden by laws such as 301. To coin the title of genocide on a country is hard to accept. But it is always better to accept rather than to believe what you want to believe, what your government wants you to believe. I know for a fact that a genocide did happen and it is because of such things like the USSR that led to no genocide recognition at the time. I wouldn't waste my time here if I thought that I couldn't try and talk some into seeing what certain people don't want to see.

>Number 9 (too long, I don't wanna c/p to take all the space from your talk page lol)

I know how much the Dashnaks and Hunchaks are hated in Turkey and I guess Azerbaijan. But you have to know that you cannot lay to blame everything on the Dashnak/Hunchak. I'll give you a brief history about it. These groups were intitially formed because of the random Kurdish/Ottoman attacks on villages, the heavyyy taxing, etc. When Armenians stood up for more equal rights, they were put down w/ "example massacres". These organizations viewed to defend the towns and to gain to some extent an autonomy for Armenian dominated lands. When the CUP (an initial ally to the Dashnaks) came to power, they were supported by none other then the Dashnaks. Why? Because the CUP promised reforms, something which everyone agreed upon. There was no more fight for autonomy, there was never a realistic fight for independence! The "fighting" stopped w/ the arrival of the CUP and this you should put clearly in your head. Now on to 'karahisar. The reason why it is written "hunchakian led" is because the Hunchaks were organized and they had the power to organize a resistance then a bunch of ragtag civilians could ever would. No one belonged to anyone, the Hunchaks organized the civilians. The Ottomans wanted to forcefully move everyone to their death so in order to resist such an attempt, you fight the people trying to do that to you. It is not a mere co-incidence that this fighting happened during the same time as the AG. It is part of a resistance to an AG. Again, think like the ghetto uprisings during the Holocaust. - Fedayee 21:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Ermeni Diasporası kendilerinin istediği ve insanları kandırarak sahte, basit ve geçersiz kaynaklarla lobicilik faaliyetleri yaparak kendilerinin olması istedikleri gibi tarih yazıyorlar... Böyle bir şey olamaz. Ben Bu toprakların çocuğuyum burada doğdum burada büyüdüm atalarımızın büyüklerimizin anlattıkları ve tarihimiz açıktır. olmayan bir şeyi varmış gibi göstermeye çalışmak ne derece doğru ? Benim memleketimin doğduğum büyüdüğüm toprakların hakkında bilgiler giremiyorum benim girdiklerim siliniyor yada madde kilitleniyor. Bu topraklarda neler olduğunu en iyi burada yaşayanlar bilir. --Fatih1453 13:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC) Senden bir ricam olabilirmi acaba şu yazımı ingilizceye çevirebilirmisin sana zahmet olmazsa. Şimdiden teşekkürler. Kolay gelsin.
 * Selam Oğuz...
 * Tekrar Merhaba Oğuz
 * Ben bu topraklarda Şebinkarahisar'da yaşıyorum bu topraklada doğdum bu topraklarda büyüdüm ve neler yaşandığını sizlerden daha iyi biliyorum ama benim şehrimin benim yaşadığım yerin tarihinin yanlış taraflı ve lobicilik faaliyetleri içerisinde insalara olmayan bir şeyi sahte, asılsız ve düzmece kaynakları sunarak olmuş gibi göstererek anlatılmasını önleyemiyorum banlanıyorum yada Şebinkarahisar maddesi kilitleriniyor. Onlar bu topraklarda yaşadımı da biliyorlar ? Ermeni Diasporası tarihi istedikleri gibi yazabilir mi ? Ellerinde yetkileri var diye bu yetkilerini kendi çıkarları için kullanabilirler mi ? Neden tüm Türk sayfalarına sadece asılsız ermeni soykırımı hakkında bilgiler ekliyorlar Vikipedia tarafsız ve özgür ansiklopedi değilmi ? Madem bu admin arkadaşalar çok bilgili neden coğrafi, ekonomik, nüfus bilgilerini insanlar için faydalı olacak bilgileri girmiyorlarda sadece asılsız ermeni soykırımı hakkında bilgiler veriyorlar. BU HAKKI NEREDEN BULUYORLAR ? --88.231.200.89 10:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

References to Armenian genocide
I have noticed that you removed references to Armenian genocide from a large number of articles. This is a very emotional issue, please do not do such muss changes without some consensus first. User:Khoikhoi has reverted some of your changes. Please do not re-introduce them back without discussing first. Happy editing Alex Bakharev 22:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

2-week block
You have been blocked from editing for a duration of 2 weeks, as a result of persistent disruptive editing - edit-warring, incivility and WP:POINT violations. Rama's arrow (just a sexy boy) 20:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

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