User talk:OldManRivers/Archive 3

Photos
If you upload photos, it's best to do it at WikiCommons so that they can be used in other language Wikipedias. You'll need to set up an account to upload there, but it's as easy as Wikipedia.

For copyright, images from 1949 or earlier are in the public domain and are free to use. Just type in somewhere on the page to add the public domain licence.

For BC Archives images, you'll need to crop off the text, especially since they (falsely) claim to own the copyright even for public domain images (such as this). Their online photos are also lower quality than other collections, but they have lots you won't find anywhere else. Here's some links for photo databases:
 * City of Vancouver Archives
 * Library and Archives Canada
 * Vancouver Public Library Special Collections (out of service during the strike) looks like it's available after all
 * British Columbia Archives
 * Glenbow Archives (Province of Alberta archives, but they have some BC photos there as well)

Let me know if you have any problems. Cheers, bobanny 16:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I changed the licence on the photos on your user page to PD. When uploading photos, be sure to note where the photo came from, the year it was taken, and the photographer (if known) to keep the copyright police happy. bobanny 16:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks a billion! OldManRivers 21:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Template:Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast
It's definitely pretty, and works well. I'm a little uncomfortable grouping people by language, but it seems to make sense in this case, since you're not lumping all wakashan-speaking people together in a language hierarchy. I really like the Kwakwaka'wakw template you made too. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 21:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well the Linguist patriarchy over saying who my people are is absurd, and biased. I'm glad you like.  OldManRivers (talk) 21:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Xwáýxway
When changing article names, you would want to use the "move" button instead of moving just the content (the redirect will automatically be created). This preserves the article history. Thanks. --Qyd (talk) 15:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I did not know that. Thank you OldManRivers (talk) 23:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

No, thank you...
Copy editing is the easy part... actually writing new content is more difficult.

And thanks for writing the Andy Paull article. He's been coming up in my reading lately, so I was glad to see there was an article on him. Now I'm trying to track down a copy of his biography... they're hard to come by. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 00:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * They are hard to come by. My grandmother (his daughter) has a copy of a thesis done by a former student of the University of Washington.  It's quite good and goes into detail into his work for native rights.  The more famous biography of him does have a lot of Christian/Catholic bias, but still a good source of his personality.  There is also "From Brotherhood to Nationhood" about George Manuel.  Andy introduced George into the world of native politics and trained him in it.  So naturally Andy is talked about a lot in that book.  I'm entering a Aboriginal Youth writing challenge with the Dominion Institute this spring.  I'm thinking of doing a creative non-fiction] on him.  Then I would like to write more about him later too.


 * I just picked up a few more citable sources for Skwxwu7mesh so I can finally expand it more. After I work on it more and really expand everything, my next project is the potlatch and the potlatch ban.  It's hard to generalize the potlatch in some area's because it was practice on the whole Northwest Coast.  And Coast Salish and northern practices differ quite frequently.  So I'll definitely be calling on your help with copy editing on those too! ;) OldManRivers (talk) 00:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Whoa, you're a descendent of Andy Paull? That's awesome. It was actually that book on Manuel I was reading when Andy Paull's name came up. I just looked up that thesis you mentioned and its exactly what I'm looking for. I'll see if I can get an interlibrary loan of Washington. Good luck with the writing contest - let me know how it goes. I know next to nothing about potlatches, but I'd be interested to read, and happy to copyedit. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 01:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, he's a hero and icon for many of my cousins, although surprisingly most of his decedents don't know his work. Just a handful.  His political work, and community work inspires me a lot of the time.  But what I find more interesting in learning about him, is how in some places, I would strongly disagree with him.  It also helps me understand the complex of heroes and how heroes also have flaws, but rarely do the people who idolize them see them.  Then when these individuals are raised on the pedestal, revealing their humanity tends to result in their tumbling far down in the public's eye.  It's quite interesting and he was an interesting fellow.  OldManRivers (talk) 01:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It turns out my own university has a copy, but it wasn't categorized in a place where I would have looked. Thanks for the tip. I know what you mean about complexity and humanity of public figures. That's one of the things I really liked about the book on Manuel. It showed that he had a lot of personal problems and personal flaws. Idealizing people can inspire, but it can also discourage, if people think they can't achieve that level of perfection. Andy Paull seems really interesting... like his opposition to giving indigenous people the right to vote (and I mean, no-strings-attached, not "enfranchisement" under the Indian Act) because he felt it might be used as a wedge to disenfranchise them later. It seems like a really radical position for someone to take back then. Themightyquill (talk • contribs) 01:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a really radical position for folks back then. He was really smart on these types of things and devoted a good portion of his life to it.  There are things like that, position he takes like that, that completely inspire me because he was so right back them, but it's so different now.  Then there are things he said back then that I would disagree with, but regardless, he was doing it for his people.  The Vancouver Public Library has a copy of that thesis, but it's all in slides.  Do you know any way on how I would be able to get a copy of it?  My grandmother has her copy but she never lets it out of her house.  (Along with her copy of Conversation with Khatsalano). OldManRivers (talk) 09:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I just got my copy of that Andy Paull thesis, in book form. According to this page it's available in BC at Vancouver Public Library, Simon Fraser University and Malaspina (in Nanaimo). Unfortunately, it looks like SFU has it only in Microfilm. I can't tell with VPL, but you said it's only in Microfilm. It looks like Malaspina has a printed copy.... maybe you can get it via Interlibrary Loan from the VPL? It should be possible, and would probably only take a few days. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 17:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestions. I just came from VPL, had a look through the microfilm again.  I also looked up Malispina, and  they, SFU, and VPL are all microfilm.  The library gave me the number for a US company that prints  microfilm into paper bound books.  Cost like 50$ though.    If I print it at VPL on their printers, it's 80$. lol.  I'll see what I can do.  OldManRivers (talk) 23:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate images uploaded
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Gustafsen Lake & Media
It's funny that you mentioned this. Just yesterday, I ran across this reference:
 * Labertus, Sandra. "Wartime Images, Peacetime Wounds: The Media and the Gustafsen Lake Stand-off." (2004)

I haven't read it, but it's cited in Taiaiake Alfred's book, so it's probably okay politically, and it looks like it addresses media relations as well. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 16:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Just picked it up. Looks interesting.  I was 6 at the time of the incident, but when ever I read about Oka, or this, it just stirrs so much in me.  So much is ignored in history glass, and so much is lied about.  OldManRivers (talk) 11:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

oh... feathers!
That makes more sense... I was trying to figure that one out and meant to insert a note about it. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 21:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be pretty crazy if my people threw swans in the air to represent peace. Can you imagine how many swans they would of kiled? lol

Based off of?
I'm working on maps for lower BC coast for indigenous languages. Specifically, Vancouver Island, and Georgia Straight area. I like this map, but there are few of BC-native language maps. Any help, suggestions, or whatever would be awesome. Thanks!!! OldManRivers 04:19, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * hi. i saw this note at commons:Image_talk:Tlingit-map.png.


 * if you need some map sources, i suggest looking at the multi-volume Handbook of North American Indians published by the Smithsonian Institution (http://anthropology.si.edu/handbook.htm). You would want to look at volume #7 Northwest Coast. You can buy them from the US government or sometimes used via an online book company (sometimes the government's cheaper, sometimes not), or get them from a library (including interlibrary loan). Also, the Languages volume (#17) has a large map of the entire North American continent with all languages and language families in a pocket on the inside back cover. Inside volume #7, there should be a separate chapter on each ethnic group usually with at least one map of the ethnic group's range.


 * the way I make my maps is I scan the large Languages map in sections and trace the boundaries of whatever I want to focus on (usually omitting details, etc.). It takes a long time sometimes, but I often use the same map file to generate different maps of the same general region. For example, I will use commons:Image:Ahtna_lang.png to make maps of all the groups surrounding the Ahtna, and I used commons:Image:Langs_N.Amer.png to generate many maps of language families (commons:Image:Algic_langs.png, commons:Image:Na-Dene_langs.png, etc.).


 * For map styles, I read Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Maps and looked at User:Mark Dingemanse/gallery. For making the maps, I use GIMP (http://www.gimp.org), which is a free program (it didnt take so long to learn how to use).


 * since, I already have the Languages map already scanned, I can email you the scanned sections of the northwest coast and my GIMP files to see what they look like. Just send me an email via the email function here on wikipedia.


 * and, by the way, that's a cool t-shirt ("no justice on stolen land"). – ishwar  (speak)  02:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

BCTP
Awesome. That needed to be done, and I really didn't feel like doing it. Good work. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 18:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Image source problem with Image:Kwakwaka'wakwgirl.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Kwakwaka'wakwgirl.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.

As well as adding the source, please add a proper copyright licensing tag if the file doesn't have one already. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the GFDL-self tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Non-free content, use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the image is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Fair use) then the image will be deleted 48 hours after 21:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. 71.58.56.181 (talk) 21:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't worry. Yesterday, I transferred it to commons (Image:Kwakwakawakwgirl.jpg) and noticed it was missing a source, so I searched around and added a plausible one. For future reference, you need to write where you got it, even if you know it's Public Domain. You can even just mention the website where you got it. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

facebook
I dunno dude. I looked through those facebook group photos, and there are a bunch of awesome ones, but how do you know they are edward curtis? Even if they are technically Public Domain, they might be someone's personal family photos. I just did a google search for "Edward Curtis Kwakiutl" and got a bunch of results... - TheMightyQuill (talk) 18:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm positive they are Edward Curtis Photographs. I'll upload them to photobucket to show you.
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * They are very good pictures for the Kwakwaka'wakw page. Actually, quite good for Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast.  I have the details of who the photographs are of for two of them.  Just need to find a good source for where the photographs are taken from.  I have this for a couple of the photographs as sources. I'll keep looking for others.  OldManRivers (talk) 20:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Tsilhqot'in page
This page I just ran across while trying to look up the missing unaffiliated govt for the Tsilhqot'in template (High Bar, Alkali Lake and one other I can't recall); it needs wikification so I'm volunteering you to do it, plus looking up the ISBNs and publication data and formatting for the books cited. Someone at Ulkatcho btw monitors their page; my guess is it's Carey Price's mom.....Skookum1 (talk) 18:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll get on that as soon as I can. :) OldManRivers (talk) 18:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Mount Cayley
Hi OldManRivers. How does Mount Cayley have the same name as Black Tusk? Occording to bivouac.com, Mount Cayley is the offical name for the volcano. Black Tusk 04:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * My apologies, I should of been more specific. t'a k 't'a k mu'yin tl'a in7in'a'xe7en is the name of both mountains because both have histories as being the Landing Place of the Thunderbird. Oh, and that would be the official names to the Skwxwu7mesh...lol OldManRivers (talk) 06:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But I thought it's named Black Tusk because it's black and shaped like a walus tusk. Mount Cayley doesn't have anything like it. Black Tusk 04:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe. I don't know anything about the Settler history, just the indigenous history of the mountains around these area's.  OldManRivers (talk) 09:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Kwakwaka'wakw templates
Hi buddy; I just got a speedy deletion note for Kwakwaka'wakw peoples which was one of those I made when delineating the gov/ethno article titles/divisions; it's been "orphaned", i.e. not used much, and I see your Kwakwaka'wakw template does a much better job, and I think serves as a useful model for equivalent templates for other peoples in BC, i.e. including both the ethno and political articles on the same template, works for me....anyway, one thing, could you work at integrating all the very many alternative spellings; and adjust titles or begin move/rename processes for pages like Laich-kwil-tach which it seems might better be title Weyiki or whatever the right spelling is (I've seen it as Wei-wai-kai, and seen other spellings as well); the article title should be what's in the template, so if it's appropriate to rename Laich-kwil-tach please do so. BTW somewhere there are pics of a huge potlatch at Mamalilaqula in the 1920s, with wringer washers stacked up by the dozens....similarly for Ft Rupert and Alert Bay as I recall. Anyway, just please make sure all possible spelling and altname redirects are in place and try and flesh out the stubs needed to unredlink your template; I'll let the one with the s.d. on it get deleted but pls take not of its spelling usages, which I got from online Kwakwaka'wakw resources but as I can see from your template aren't standard; btw stuff like 'Namgis there's different diacriticals for as I found out before, i.e. different apostrophe marks; all the special characters in the various languages don't help but it's all got to be covered; e.g. with the Kwagyulh/Ft Rupert group ALL the ways of spelling that should be redirect items; although in that case the primary redirects will go to Kwakwaka'wakw because of the mis-use of "Kwakiutl" in its various forms in English; your callon wher4e that should redirect; point is to make sure all possibnle spelling and character-variations are accounted for in redirects and/or in disambig lines, and note that there are disambig pages that could be affected (e.g. Comox) once relevant articles are written to match redlinked items). And I nominate you to build parallel versions of your Kwakwaka'wakw templates for other peoples; your choice - Tsimshian maybe has lots of articles; one suggestion is your template might have a section for "villages and sites" where articles about the villages (not the bands/tribes) can be located; this applies especially in the Norrth Coast/Skeena groups....not sure what to do about the clan systems.....Skookum1 (talk) 15:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I noticed that bot sending you that message. I still wanted to do more work on the Kwakwaka'wakw template, but I will work on it more.  I'm not sure what template I was going to do next, but I did want to do one. Tsimshian would work, as well as Nuu-chah-nulth, or Coast Salish, or straight up Skwxwu7mesh for the fun of it.  My main work is now going to be split between Skwxwu7mesh and Kwakwaka'wakw.  Just waiting for some books to be ready for me at VPL so I can start citing away.  Oh, and potlatch can use a big overhaul (esp. now I know how to write wikipedia articles better.) Anyways, thanks for the volunteering, I'll get it on (After my vacation next week though!) OldManRivers (talk) 18:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use images in the userspace
I have removed the image Image:Raven-bill reid.jpg from your userspace User:OldManRivers/Raven in mythology. Please be aware that images that are clamied as fair use have a restriction in location:


 * From the policy page Non-free content criteria
 * 9. Restrictions on location. Non-free content is allowed only in articles (not disambiguation pages), and only in article namespace, subject to exemptions. (To prevent an image category from displaying thumbnails, add __NOGALLERY__ to it; images are linked, not inlined, from talk pages when they are a topic of discussion.)

Placing image in the userspace such as User:OldManRivers/Raven in mythology is a violation and has been removed. Please do not restore this image without consoltation. Thank you. — Save_Us   †  18:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Indigenous history of mountains
Thanks OldManRivers. I'll try and expand more articles. Recently, I have found the name origin of Mount Edziza in northwestern British Columbia: named after the Edzertza family of the Tahltan people, who live nearby. However, I haven't had time to add it to the article. Black Tusk 05:55, 11 Febuary 2008 (UTC)
 * lol... one my buddies is an Edziza. OldManRivers (talk) 06:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you know if there's any history about the hot springs at Mount Cayley? Black Tusk 04:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ssssshh. Inquiring Whistlerites will inundate the place if they found out; OMR may choose to confirm or not confirm but I've heard there's also one in the Squamish River lowland, on reserve land and not talked about to non-Skwxwu7mesh ;-).  Hadn't heard about Cayley's springs, and I lived in Whistler in the '80s and knew lots of backcountry skiers/alpinists.  Dangerously close to tourism exploitation if they exist, I'd say; surprised the heli-skiing/hiking companies haven't jumped on 'em.Skookum1 (talk) 19:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There's springs on Cayley's flanks, see here. I just want to know because I know Meager has some springs that people use/used (Cayley is not far from Meager is it?). Black Tusk 19:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No comment. lol OldManRivers (talk) 19:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ;-p but understood. I've been to Meager Creek long before the road got screwed up and before the washout/vandalism; the place was overrun and as it became more popular, unsanitary, especially with all those high temperatures cooking stuff up.  Great pity, I miss the place; but I do know that the remaining wild hot springs in BC I'd kind of like to keep off the tourist brochures (including Wikipedia....just don't list it in the hot springs category even if it's mentioned here); ditto for the purported springs up in the area of the Bridge River Cones, and who knows where else.....some things have good reason to be kept secret....nothing kills sacredness like coolers full of beer and ghetto blasters and people behaving like it's a tailgate party.....Skookum1 (talk) 19:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's funny you mention that because the Elaho Valley had the same problem a few years ago. The Squamish Nation eventually created a program called "The Gurardians" or "Nsiyxni7tem" in my language, to watch over the valley.  Two or one person at the entrance 24/7.  Taking names, license plates, etc.  I guess a lot of young folks were throwing raves up there.  Then we found a couple of grow ops, who's they were, we don't know, but they sure as hell wanted to protect it.  They secretly slashed tires, cut wires, and attacked one person.  Perhaps they were into something a little more then weed.  I mean, you rarely hear about violent pot heads...lol  OldManRivers (talk) 20:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Capilano River
Came across it while searching Capilano Falls, which of course don't exist (didn't they, before Cleveland Dam?). Anyway just seems like a page crying out for aboriginal content; Lynn Canyon Suspension Bridge or Lynn Creek Headwaters Regional Park or whatever are also out there....Shannon Falls Provincial Park and Stawamus Chief also need your attention, I'd say. Brandywine Falls, Alexander Falls....I guess Nairn's in Lil'wat turf though....Skookum1 (talk) 19:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * True on all accounts. I found it a while ago too.  It's on my list of projects to go through all the links in Skwxwu7mesh territory and add information accordingly.  All the mountain ranges, rivers, creeks, valley's, etc.  It would make for a good section, or possible a List of places sacred to the Skwxwu7mesh.  It's also in my head to build, List of placenames in Skwxwu7mesh language in Metro Vancouver, or didn't you mention a while back List of Aboriginal placenames in Metro Vancouver.  I guess that would make sense because, although I won't admit it much, Skwxwu7mesh place names, or satiyilh in my language, are only official to about two dozen people.OldManRivers (talk) 20:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * hmmm....a Category:Places in Skwxwu7mesh territory category? Might be an interesting precedent, and would have to be "limited", i.e. North Vancouver wouldn't be in the category, but the Capilano River, the Lions, Stanley Park/Qwhy-qwhy, Ulksen/Burrard Peninsula would be.....Skookum1 (talk) 22:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Didn't you post a link to a map of such places at one time? Would be good to link on the Skwxwu7mesh page for sure.  Also I'd say List of aboriginal placenames in Metro Vancouver is more like it, given that Halqemeylem and Hunquminum names are around in some of that turf; in Matthews he says it's mostly Musqueam he's citing, but the villages in question sometimes seem more likely to have been Skwxwu7mesh, e.g. Eeyulshun (soft sand, Jericho Beach) and also his spelling of "Ulksen".  BTW I don't suppose you might be able to enlist colleages at the Musqueam and Tsleil-waututh to flesh out their pages the way you've been doing with Skwxwu7mesh and Kwakwa'ka'wakw.  What about someone over in Shishalh turf?  BTW just noticed all the Nuu-chah-nulth articles that need doing, or breaking up between government, people and village articles; there's that First Nations governments on Vancouver Island I think Nuu-chah-nulth-aht First Nations governments and the Kwakwa'ka'wakw and (for lack of a better term) "Georgia Strait Salish" templates parallel to it (so as to include Shishalh and Mainland Comox as well as you guys); the Vancouver Island template leaves the Sunshine Coast and Central Coast peoples out of templates altogether; seems easier to align everything by "ethnic group"/nationality.Skookum1 (talk) 20:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC).
 * Is this the map you speak of. Can I post it?  I'm pretty sure it's not public domain. Been trying to make my own maps, but I'll have to start my scratch, kinda.  Eventually it will be needed though, for the whole south coast.  Maps greatly show how it all works on the west coast.  Need one for Coast Salish, Kwakwaka'wakw, Nuuchah-nulth, etc.  Yeah, I'll probably go with Aboriginal placenames.  That's interesting about the Musqeuam naming.  In my language, it's iy7iymexw, meaning place of good land.  No wonder, it's freaking beautiful there (Speak of Jericho Beach, I'll be volunteering there again this year for the second time at the Vancouver Folk Music Festival.)  I'm not sure who would be interested from Tseilwaututlh and Musqueam.  I've tried getting friends for Kwakwaka'wakw, Nuu-chah-nulth, and Tsimshian.  Too no avail though.


 * Yeah that's the map. I see the national logo, the eagle-head on it, so I guess that's a kind of copyright (the Uxwuimixw not having signed the Berne Convention and therefore not bound by it, one supposes).  But even if it's copyright there's such a thing as "fair use" for stuff like this; can't remember the exact img tag; maybe MightyQuill might remember it.  I guess Coast Salish takes care of all the scraps and avoids wording like "Vancouver Island, the Georgia Strait and Central Coast"; the Central Coast is still an issue because of the trinary Northern Wakashan peoples, the so-called Northern Kwakiutl of the old terminology; Haisla, Heiltsuk, and Owikeno; the Nuxalk could be on the Coast Salish template easily enough; but the Northern Wakashan wouldn't belong on the Kwakwa'ka'wakw one of course; unless there were a "Wakashan peoples" template (and Governments of the Wakashan peoples) where they could be included, and also the Makah.  Likewise, as I'm sure you're aware, Coast Salish as a template would have to include all the Washington-side ones, and also I think the Tillamook/Nehalem (who technically, according to linguists, I don't think are grouped in the Coast Salishan languages but are an independent and much older offshoot).  Nobody's done a "Peoples of the Northwest Plateau" template, though I saw something like that somewhere; have to see if I can find it again, it was recently and there were issues about who to include on it; might have been a list page; but "Interior Salish peoples" as a template, while pertinent in BC, would leave out many Interior Washington and ID/MT peoples, including the Ktunaxa.  Anyway, native geography vs latter-day political geography; we know the desired context; I'm just concerned the Coast Salish template could be VERY large, although show/hide could be used for its subsections I guess....as for the enlisting people thing, one thing that occurred to me was to approach the education departments of the various nations and ask, maybe, for teachers to get their high school-age students to write up their communities as a class or private project...and the further thought on that is, given that native funding is a lot easier to line up than for cultus whitemen, a common front from aboriginal wiki editors might be able to get a grant to encourage people in various schools/bands to take part.  Under Wiki guidelines and teaching them Wikithink as they go; but it's an excellent chance for aboriginal people to flesh out their own history, worldview, and political organizations in a catalogued, easily-researched form....maybe a pipedream but I bet writing teachers would be a good place to start.....Skookum1 (talk) 22:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

For templates, I'll probably group it all by ethnic groups, then nations. I have the Kwakwaka'wakw, then next a Skwxwu7mesh one, and when I get to it next, a Coast Salish and Nuu-chah-nulth. I have a complete list of Coast Salish nations now it so it should be easier to go from there. My goal is to build a series in all of these, which will be really neat and cool. Kwakwaka'wakw will be easier, well kind of easier. There are more books and citable references for the Kwakwaka'wakw then there is for just the Skwxwu7mesh. So creating expansive articles will be easier. Not easier in the sense, there is more writing to do...lol Either way, lots of fraking work to do. OldManRivers (talk) 20:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

re maps & map tenchnology 4 U
I think I've already pointed you at the Land and Data Resource Warehouse Catalogue (aka Provincial Basemap in an older simpler format) at http://maps.gov.bc.ca, but I'm not sure you've seen [this http://www.mttc.ca/pdf/Overview2.pdf Map of Member Nations territories] which I found on the *Musgamagw Tsawataineuk Tribal Council website. There's a link on that website to the BC government agency which runs the software/mapping system, online, which is free and anyone can use; the mapsproduced are copoyright their author, but draw on government grahics databases of lands, terrain etc. It's late and I have something else to do but if you can't find the link remind me and I'll look it up; I've seen another langauge-area map done for the Nicola-Okanagasn-Kamloops region, floating grid territories; doesn't hasve to be like that, just looks neat, same as on the Musgamaw page. You could do LOTs with it, I'm just not enough of a technogeek to ever work it, despite my cartographical instincts....Skookum1 (talk) 07:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, where's that website that does maps online? OldManRivers (talk) 08:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Thought it was linked off the Tribal Council site....I'll do some digging, as I know one of the Interior peoples used it too, and it's a free provgov service.Skookum1 (talk) 17:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Northwest Coast Art
Not sure if "Art" should be capitalized there....while this term can mean any art in the Pacific Northwest, its conventional use is to refer to aboriginal art, with "Northwest Coast [Native/Indian] Art" implicit by convention.....I happened to see a picture on the Haida page which features one of their notable modern carvers and tried to wikisearch him, to no avail. Wound up at Sculpture and was surprised to see the paucity of material in the section "The Americas" - see my notes on Talk:Sculpture about all this. I'm wondering if you could compile a shortlist of notable artists; as noted elsewhere the Gitxsan contributors have done a huge job up there bio'ing artists and such, nobody's done it for Haida and kwakwaka'wakw and everybody else....seems to be time. On top of all the OTHER work we've/I've created for us.....let's see: You may have a better title, and it maybe would be better as Northwest Coast aboriginal art or Aboriginal art of the Northwest Coast; of course Kwakwaka'wakw art and Skwxwu7mesh culture or whatever are nation-specific, but I'd say the general topic of Northwest Coast Art is a general article worthy ofbeing at leaststarted....Skookum1 (talk) 17:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)!
 * Guujaaw and the other Edenshaws
 * Mungo Martin
 * Norval Morrisseau
 * Well how 'bout that it exists already; I'll add the CanBC and aboriginal project templates ifthey're not arleady there;see Northwest Coast Art and I suspect you may want to tweak the text; I don't see you in the file history.Skookum1 (talk) 17:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * My idea was to use Northwest Coast art as a precursor into each separate and distinct art. Galleries, anthropologists, and to some extent, the market, have dictated the naming conventions of our culture.  It's stupid and insulting.  Either way, 'Northwest Coast art is here to say.  But the names and respect of each distinct art for for each ethno-cultural group is starting and in some cases, exists.  Strangely the resurrection of Coast Salish art with artists like Susan Point, LESlie, and others I can't remember there names, has seen some cool works being done.  Oddly enough, I've seen Coast Salish art marked up with [Northwest Coast art as the same thing, and some say it's not.  I kind of say it's not because it's so uniquely different.  But for funding purposes, they are one and the same.  Either way, I'll probably add some things to the Northwest Coast art about how it's different the same. But back to my main idea, here are the break off art articles I was going to create:


 * Nuu-chah-nulth art - Art Thompson is famous for bringing this art form to a more mainstream level
 * Kwakwaka'wakw art] - Not just all the Hunts
 * Haida art - The only thing of their culture they held on to. Opps, did I just say that? (lol)
 * Coast Salish art - Susan Point, and a few others.
 * Tlin'git art - Enough said.
 * There are probably more, but those are the main ones. Skwxwu7mesh art is within Coast Salish art, and historically there was design elements that only my people did, that no one else did that made it Skwxwu7mesh.  Same for Lushootseed region who had this certain kind of olvoid that you could tell was from Southern Coast Salish.  It's just like Kwakwaka'wakw art with different styles, techniques, etc. within the cultural group.  OldManRivers (talk) 19:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I know of some sculptures, wooden and stone, that wound up in the Vancouver Museum and had been on display in Stanley Park for many years; Coast Salish I believe, though from the lower Fraser Canyon; maybe Nlaka'pamux but I don't think so; Nlaka'pamux and St'at'imc had carved funerary figures, otherwise (I think) unknown in the Interior; but I think these were Sto:lo, maybe Yale; there might be pictures somewhere, the VPL ones I've seen are of course off-limits. Aside from the distinctiveness of Coast Salish art, where do we fit in the Haisla, Heiltsuk and Owekeeno?  Northern Wakashan art??  But, if defined linguistically, that would include the Kwakwaka'wakw...same prob as with the political/national templates....Skookum1 (talk) 19:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Haisla, Heiltusk and Owekeeno are apart of Northwest Coast art. Basically, Kwakwaka'wakw up to Tlin'git is what is perseved as Northwest Coast art.  Same basic elements.  The lowest common demoninator for me, everything is square.  All the shapes, curves, oilvoids, etc, are all square.  This is something doesn't exist at all in Coast Salish art (Or else it wouldn't be Coast Salish and would be said to have Northern influence).  But Heiltusk have their own art style, same as Haisla.  Don't know about Owekeeno.  But you get the point...I hope.  It's all similar, but has their own distinct features that make it exclusively to that culture.  This would have to go into detail on the page eventually.  OldManRivers (talk) 03:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Just remember to avoid Original Research by trying to cite stuff as much as possible, or quote from Bill Holm or others if need be; going into detail I obviously like to do myself, and don't cite as much as I could/should....but I suppose in cases like this where there's never been a coherent article of this kind before some analysis and organization is necessary, although that winds up being OR. Oh well, keep 'er going.  BTW you ever see the 2500 BP stone pipe from the upper Lillooet River?....which brings to mind yet another topic, maybe a touchy one but potentially very extensive, with lotsa nice pics possible - List of First Nations churches in British Columbia, meaning buildings; doesn't have to be a list, maybe a history; note that this isn't hte same as List of residential schools, but rather of reserve/rancherie churches, and the particular architectural style associated with so many; there's fancy ones like Skookumchuck Hot Springs/Skatin, and the old big one at the Mission in North Van, and so on....I prefer the aboriginal/indigenous stuff, but as far as encyclopedic coverage is concerned I think the churches deserve some illustration; the article would be an excuse to have the pictures basically '-).Skookum1 (talk) 03:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * NB house painting currently redirects to Painting and decorating; there seems to be a need/potential for an article on Northwest Coast aboriginal house painting....primarily Kwakwaka'wakw in nature, I'd think, maybe it can just be in the Kwakwaka'wakw art article....Skookum1 (talk) 19:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, and it will one day. (When I get to it.)  Adding it to my list of things to get to next.  OldManRivers (talk) 03:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There's one I remember that I think was in Barbeau's Totem Poles. It was a giant halibut housefront, maybe a Mamalaliqula or somewhere else in the archipelago, I haven't seen the book in years; just a really striking design and high as well as broad.  I remember the village it was in sloped down to the water; a lot of the buildings had paintings.  On the Coast Salish front, there's a passage in Daphne Sleigh's The People of the Harrison, which is about both aboriginal and non-aboriginal people in the Chehalis-through-lower Lillooet River area, where old-time accounts of the Scowlitz and Chehalis villages, now destroyed, suggest some grander form of Salishan artistic undertaking, said to be very imposing but also very different from the coastal style; alas, not only did the community destroy its heritage at the behest of the preachers, but their neighbour/friend who'd documented all their stories and had pictures/etc  stored told a farmhand to clean out a storage and the farmhand burned all the boxes containing all that was recorded of the civilization of the Harrison River area.....our place in Ruskin, by the way, had some burial goods found, one a turtle-shaped bowl (was it our basement or White's?) and there'd been a village down on the river before my time, and before the dam got built of course, just above it; Kwantlens or Whonnocks I'd guess, maybe Katzie, not Matsqui; the reserve nearby is a Whonnock reserve, the only two Whonnocks I'd heard of in the '80s were living in Washington, the reserve was administered by/attached to MacMillan Island Kwantlens I think.  Anyway, in the old-old days the once-populous villages of the Stave River were wiped out by "the mortality" of the 1830s, or 1820s, some kind of hemorrhagic fever; on Sto:lo maps they're referred to as "Skayuks", but that just means "everybody died".  What they called themselves has been forgotten...as is also the case with the Stuwix (hmm, just to remind myself of a tangle of articles that need sorting out...).Skookum1 (talk) 03:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

This is potentially a touchy tangent, but just wondering - being both Skwxwu7mesh and Kwakwaka'wakw - what your take on the importation/emulation/imitation of the northern/Northwest Coast style in Lower Mainland and Straits peoples, even the spread of the totem pole imagery/structure into distant Native American cultures (where to me it's always looked out of place, e.g. in Flagstaff or Taos....); but I note there's an importation of the symbology and general style in Skwxwu7mesh and Shishalh and Cowichan art, or crafts-art anyway, the tourist schlock more or less; somewhere I saw something that the Skwxwu7mesh and Shishalh had undertaken the emulation because of their acquired status in beating off the Euclataws, who of course sported the stuff (as you say, showily and kinda overblown), whereas the Musqueam and Tsawwassen did not (until more recently, when Northwest Coast-style art spread almost as much as Plains-style dance culture did....). Anyway, I'm just a dumb hwunitum/hwelitum (whatever it is in snichim) but I was wondering if you had any more comment.Skookum1 (talk) 03:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I never heard the thing about Skwxwu7mesh winning it. It came about through the rise of the tourism industry.  We used to joke that "Squamish" translated to "People of the Plaque Makers".  It's quite sad really, and I find myself conflicted.  See, within Kwakwaka'wakw art, you don't just do the art.  Your supposed to be trained in that field to understand what you do.  It's less of an art when you really get into it, as in "expression" and "artists creativity".  Like, "Oh, the sun is inspiring to do a mask like this, and maybe I'll throw this in there".  No.  It would not of been like that.  Certain elements or designs would be there for a reason, it was a strict discipline.  A strict discipline pulled of respectfully was the art form.  But the spread of modern tools, and the advent of "Native Loving Tourists", Northwest Coast art became the hot thing.  Thus, so many southerns learned and started selling art work that didn't come from their people.   It's appropriate, for sure.  But sadly accepted on a lot of levels, untill a certain point sometimes though.  We may not change the mind of the older adults who already do art work and think it's Coast Salish, but with the young people, who we will teach what is our artwork.  That's why I undertake the learning of Coast Salish art.  I have the right to learn Kwakwaka'wakw art and maybe one day I will.  OldManRivers (talk) 06:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You're probably familiar with these, but here and and  and - wow - THIS, from a search at BC Archives for "Musqueam".Skookum1 (talk) 16:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've seen those before. I think one of them is on display at Museum of Anthro-.  Very nice poles.  And that's Coast Salish style house posts for you.  There are some new Coast Salish styled house posts that I want to take pictures off and add them to the Skwxwu7mesh article.  Actually, there are a lot of photographs of modern day stuff that I want to add.  Like the longhouse in my village, the village now, and some other cultural stuff if I get the chance (Like a canoe welcoming).  OldManRivers (talk) 20:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Tsalagi article
Thought you might get a kick out of this; I was searching for info on the Homalco and found it in google.....makes you wonder how much stuff on CanFN is in the Tsalagi area of Wikipedia, no?Skookum1 (talk) 19:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Kwakwaka'wakw template
Hi; just to suggest that the First Nations section of this template might best be organized by tribal council (two or three, I'm unclear...); this on the heels of deciding to write Naut'sa Mawt Tribal Council, or stub it anyway along the lines of Kwakiutl District Council; this will give some "form" to the Coast Salish area I hope; I note there's overlap between tribal councils, e.g. some members of Naut'sa Mawt are also members of Sto:lo, so not sure how to deal with that in terms of layout. Also wondering whether a section on "Treaty organizations" is relevant to the template; the treaty associations sometimes have the same membership as tribal councils, sometimes they're different; I'd say a separate categeory is needed, and maybe no point for regular templates although a template of Land Claims Treaty Organizations in British Columbia or something of the kind will be needed.Skookum1 (talk) 20:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Coast Salish in British Columbia
I went ahead and created it, using your Kwakwaka'wakw template as the model - so you might want to change the colour scheme, and also put in an suitable image, I wouldn't have known what; see the talkpage for some issues about its contents....."defunct" peoples like the Skayuks I mentioned might have articles some day, what would I know? So they might be included here too; I imagine Transformer stones could maybe go in the "culture" section, along with any article for Xa:ytem when it finally gets written....Skookum1 (talk) 21:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ....figured "in British Columbia" would get us away from the complexities and bulk of trying to list all the Puget Sound peoples as well...not that they couldn't use a template of their own, but only so many articles have been done; if you'd rather there just be a Coast Salish template it would be easy ewnough to copy this one's contents over and then add the Washington entries....oops, speaking of which I forgot the Nuxalk, and not sure what to do about the Island Comox.....Klahoose/Homalco are I think the same thing also.Skookum1 (talk) 21:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't like it. I was going to do one for all Coast Salish, once I start getting around to that whole page.  OldManRivers (talk) 00:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * With Template:Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast, I put all the Coast Salish together in one. It was the best I could do and I knew I missed some, but it still worked.  I also used the native spelling of their nation, which right now are all redlinked, but added and re-linked to the corresponding article.  We do need a template for Coast Salish, but defining it by Colonial boundary lines is a bit backwards when speaking about indigenous peoples.  We didn't cross the boarders, the boarders crossed us.  We are all Coast Salish, and the US-Canada boarder is a Colonial notion that only applies in legal terms, (Okay, in assimilation-cultural terms too), but historically and in historical culture, it doesn't apply.  It'd be like Template:Canadian Mohawks and Template:American Mohawks.  (Man, they would be in a uproar if they were every classified by the colonial governments, let alone boarder lines.  But like you said, it would be easy to switch them over.  I'll do it, but you keep making my list of things to do longer and longer...lol.  Not that I'm complaining and don't mind, it will just take me a while because I have priorities.  OldManRivers (talk) 00:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No that's alright I'll do it when I get back from my open mic, easy enough, a bit of copy-pasting/tweaking; just give me grouping definitions; a definition of Northwest Coast that includes the Salishan Nehalem/Tillamook of Oregon then it also includes the Chinook, Cathlamet and various Sahaptian peoples (and one or two isolates, maybe); it's like the difficulty with an "Interior Salish" grouping meant to cover the Interior, spasnning the border, but there are many non-Salishan groups intermingled and, despite linguistic differences, also related now and over the centuries; this is why "Template:Indigenous peoples of the Northwest Plateau, using the nomenclature of the cited category, so as to include the others; similarly in BC there are the Stuwix and the aforemented Sauteaux; I know Metis are "aboriginal" but are they also indigenous? I mean not in strict definition but in how the term is or isn't acceptable; sdhouldn't they also be on such a template?  Not trying to poke you, just thinking of exceptions/qualifications; and it's important to distinguish between govt and ethno sections becsuse of extinct groups like the Pentlatch and Skayuks and Stuwix who will have ethno articles but no govt ones (thePentlatch may have had an Indian band until their extinction; the Whonnock also cmoe to mind, their survivors live in Washington somewhere).  But let me do it, OMR, I'm familiar with the Washington side groups; I didn't mean to invoke the border, it was only the problem of how to dub the new part of the template since nearlyl all the BC-side Nations will be in the Tribal Council and Treaty Organizations subsections/sectionheads; that doesn't apply to the ethno articles, so it's what to call that section; "Unaffiliated"...or is their a common national/state/regional organizations of them roughly equivalent to the UBCIC or another pan-national alliance/group?  Linguistic isolates like the Chemakum and Quileute (maybe same thing) are intermingled with the Puget Sound/Olympic Peninsula Salish, also, and the Makah are pretty well close kin to the Nuu-chah-nulth, no?  Yeah, the border was an imposition, as were the tribal councils; I'm just wary of dividing things up b y linguistic association because the languages don't necessarily correspond to the reservations/communities, not "cleanly" as is usual in BC, and because of things like the isolates and other non-Salish who are culturally integral with the overall map; maybe that's why Pacific Northwest Coast and Northwest Plateau are the only useful terms, being purely geographic (more or less, or relatively speakin ganyway).Skookum1 (talk) 02:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have a computer and web access fulltime again now, so will be around more; if you look at my User Contributions I've been busy since getting it ;-] so I'm sorta back.....for now; it's damned cold in these parts, easier to stay in and wiki, but now I'm gonna go play da tunes.Skookum1 (talk) 02:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure what I can say. I haven't thought about it much and didn't plan on doing any thinking about it till I go to Coast Salish related stuff. I'll think about it and get back to you.  Busy working on Skwxwu7mesh and Kwakwaka'wakw related stuff right now.  (Just picked up a few Kwakwaka'wakw related books, got a copy of Conversations with Khatsalano, and a few other nifty books from VPL.  Lots of information to decode, write, then edit, then cite.  Argh, so much work.  It'll be cool when it's all done though.) OldManRivers (talk) 02:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I just expanded and renamed it, so Coast Salish now exists; it's not like you have to writ the unwritten articles, consider that what we're doing is building a framework for others to add both articles and more structure to....I'm still stuck with what to do with Chemakuan and Chinookan peoples, who are effectively isolates again if language is the divider; and also with this template there are gonna be US-side government artidcles; a few already, but more once the tribe/government and language articles are eventually split off....someone in Washington or somewhere has been laying out all the very many small peoples across Washington, I've just added a bunch of the NorthAmNative and WPWashington templates; look at my user contributions, you'll see a few peoples like the Wanakum nobody'd written up before, and even _I_ have never heard of them...not Wakash Indians, which after you read it and my comments on its talkpage I think is worth getting deleted. G'nite.  I was gonna start the Northwest Plateau and/or Northern Interior templates; the ethnic/linguistic divisions just won't work there, too much interlinguistic group and interhistorical mingling....and at least the govt articles are often identifiably necessary to be split from the peoples ones, because of the multitribal agencies....more post-colonial reality....Skookum1 (talk) 07:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Xwechtáal
Hey, nice story. Good work. I did some copy-editing, but of course, feel free to change anything back if I got it wrong... like throwing swans in the air =) - TheMightyQuill (talk) 02:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "And Xwechtáal married the mountain goat." =) OldManRivers (talk) 02:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hei (Norw. for "hi"), happened to drop by your story page; it and other things like it maybe can best be in WikiSource, i.e. as a way to put such stories in the public domain. They're not exactly encyclopedic in nature, although there are other articles of that kind, especially in mythology (see Volsungasaga or Sigurd for stuff from one of my cultures....I've wondered, y'see, about Declaration of the Lillooet Tribe, if it shouldn't better be in WikiSource, as is the case with things like the Oregon Treaty and various aboriginal materials as well.  Just a suggestion; I've wondered about inputting stuff into WikiSource myself, just never had the time....Skookum1 (talk) 04:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I was expecting and glad you ran into the story. I might do that, but I was literally taking the story from the books I citated, plus a book I have that I can't really cite (or can I?).  It's a Squamish Legends book done for internal people within my nation.  Like, all the people who have it, are the only ones who will ever get it.  Anyways, theres enough books and citable sources out there for a lot of the stories in the history section.  But this story is one of my favorite (aside from the connection), but it's just one of the really good stories of my people.  Interestingly enough, Xwupukinem is one of the most renowned names in Skwxwu7mesh lore.  As far as I know, there are more stories about him, or with him in it, then any other name/ancestrial spirit in all Skwxwu7mesh history.  Now, not all of these stories are out there in paper and are told through oral tradition.  I was thinking about this today while I was attending a ceremony.  Even when I do all the things I want/can do with the Skwxwu7mesh, by turning it into a series, adding the citable sources, expanding all the sections, etc.  It will only make up a tiny tiny tiny portion of the culture.  Literally, even with it all being written, there is waaaaaaaaaaaay more in my people that is all held how it's supposed to be and has been held for thousands of years.  Some of it will remain that way, some of it won't.  It's kind of like an art.  Some music is best heard in live stadium concerts, while others are amazing in CD.  Indigenous cultures are similar.  Some things are best left for the ways that have been going on, and others can translate over for very meaningful ways.  The main thing is quality.  If in the transition, the quality, as in the substance the cultural meme has on indigenous and settler society, remains or the importance of that quality stays (the quality itself doesn't have to be the same, but the level of quality should stay), then it works beautifully for all people to gain from the culture, history, and everything.  Okay, strange tangent you may not get, but, who knows, you might see that tangent in a book one day and you'll be citing me!  hahaha OldManRivers (talk) 08:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure you can put it in wikisource if it's not a primary source, and since you're referencing non-Public-Domain works, it isn't primary. Technically, it's your story, and you could release it into the public domain, but I'm not sure that's what wikisource is looking for. Besides, there are lots of legends written on wikipedia. See Moses, for instance. =)

As for written vs. spoken delivery of stories, I read Thomas King's "The Truth About Stories" this year. I guess because the book is just a direct transcription of him talking, it has a nice personal, almost "oral" feel to it, even though it's written down. You guys have probably both read it, but if not, check it out. He throws in history and politics into the mix as well. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

re names
Hi; 0-key is stuck s wn't be arund much tday ;-) but fund this n Talk:Carrier language: The Names of the First Nations Languages of British Columbia frm the YKDL; think yu'll find it interesting; nte his cmments abut English prnunciatin frms. (Insert small-case-0 where necessary)Skookum1 (talk) 15:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Coool! I'll have a look when I get a chance.  OldManRivers (talk) 20:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikibreak
For those who noticed/care, I will be on a wikibreak. Some things have come up and I'm getting busy. Facebook used to be my addiction, but I'm pretty sure wikipedia is now. Since the new year is starting to get going, it's time I start working hard on what I need to do, work on some of my dreams, and what not. Plus, I have some work coming up so it's all timing up nicely. I have a load of books (to eventually add to wikipeda!) that I want to get through, and eventually get to my writing. Right now, it's a couple weeks to a month, but maybe it'll extend longer and I'll only add things to wikipedia on the weekend. Something anyways. Need to find balance eh! Anyways, thanks for those who've been helping me with my passions on here, and I'll be back soon! OldManRivers (talk) 22:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * see your weikibreak is about as effective as my own; but I will be offline more again in the near future so being a busy wikibeaver and getting at least needed stubs of certtain things done, or short starter articles. One of these long-planned is Xá:ytem Longhouse Interpretive Centre, Xá:ytem I guess should be the article name although LIC is an institution itself...hmmm;anyway the X needs the underscore line like you wrastled with over one of your page titles; as I recall it won't be possible to display the underscore-x in the title, only in the text.  Likewise with Xaals, the Halqemeylem form/name of the Transformer(s), who is involved in the histsory of the site.  Anyway if you could dummy me up a Xa:ytem with trhe right diacriticals I'll get it started; with Xaals I think the issue's got to be what the principle name of that "bio" is, which is why the English "Transformer(s)" seems to need to be the title; one thing such an article would need would be all the names as used by the different cutlures which have the story; I'm using the optional singular on it, by teh way, because in the Xa:ytem myth Xaals first visited as four beings, then after a trip to the north end of VAncovuer Island came back as one (with four faces); as one Transformer, not four, which is why the Si:yam (pl.?) of Xa:ytem did not recognize him.  I'm nopt sure what to use to disambiguate Transformers (supernatural beings) maybe?  I'd venture that the plural form is most correct, as the legends usually are, no?Skookum1 (talk) 02:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, it exists, but it does have its titling problems; they're using X_á:ytem; so now basically the question is only Xaals, unless you'd opine that the title needs fixing to look better (?).Skookum1 (talk) 02:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll tell ya what, though, I think where Longhouse goes to you might find issue with, there's mostly discussion of wickiup/wigwam type longhouses; there should not only be Longhouse (Pacific Northwest) (another piece of wikibaitfor you) but also Longhouse (Polynesia), Longhouse (Melanesia), Longhouse (Indonesia, Longhouse (Micronesia) and wherever else.....Skookum1 (talk) 02:40, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I've also been told that WSANEC also have another name for the Transformers, and also some Kwakwaka'wakw. Most of the coast salish names are quite similar, but the Kwakwaka'wakw had a different name, but same type of character(s) and powers.  As for naming, I honestly have no idea.  For some it was transformers, and others it was singular.  OldManRivers (talk) 11:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * As for the accented name titles, I used what was available. I wish underlined k 's existed, but they don't work on wikipedia. I don't know Sto;lo (?) phonetic alphabet.  Don't some band councils use different ones then others.  I remember the Tsawwassen PA being similar to the IPA (which Skwxwu7mesh was also based off, but the IPA from that decade...lol).  OldManRivers (talk) 11:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

UserPage: FIXED!
I've been meaning to make it easier for me to use. I liked the previous one too, but just spread out what was made for me, and what I needed. Shortened the profile and added easy tools for quick chat. I also fixed up my work page. This is where I have my current priorities layed out. As you may have noticed, it's mostly with my people. But I've picked up books on the Treaty Process, and a lot of stuff related to the potlatch and it's ban by the Canadian government. I'm still on my wikibreak, for now. Life's getting busy and lots of work to get done. Once I specific goals completed (like reading my books!), and some other projects well underway, I will return to accomplish more on wikipedia and beyond. So thanks for the help folks, talk to you soon =) OldManRivers (talk) 06:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Native Countries of North America
Hi OldManRivers, my name is Travis and I've enjoyed your work. I've worked mostly on the Native Countries wikipedia page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_countries_of_North_America. I'm wondering: do you have any names for native homelands that could be added, such as for the name of the Kwakwaka'wakw and Skwxwu7mesh territories? Travis Henry (talk) 00:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey Travis. A friend pointed out that page to me a while back.  I've been meaning to go through and help out on it.  As for names of bodies of land related to the people who lived on it from their languages, it kind of didn't happen around the West Coast.  For Skwxwu7mesh territories, I've only heard and seen of Skwxwu7mesh-ulh, but that not specially talking about just the land.  The -ulh ending just means "refering to" or "related to". So when a person is talking, they are talking about all of what it is to be Skwxwu7mesh, thus refering to the land, history, language, protocols, etc.  It's neat how it refers to so much for something so little.  As for Kwakwakwaka'wakw, I haven't heard of anything, but there might be a word for the land, but I don't think so.  Consider that Kwakwaka'wakw was created in the 60's too puts doubts to a unifies word for all of it.  OldManRivers (talk) 04:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for responding. The undifferentiation of the word for "land/country" and "people/nation" are not unique to Native America. In the Irish language, includes both "land" and "people"; same for Old English . At risk of sounding eccentric, I suggest that such usages go back to a time when these elements were not even perceived to be separate things. Anyway, just because Skwxwu7mesh-ulh includes other meanings in addition to "the Skwxwu7mesh country" doesn't invalidate its inclusion in the Native Countries page. So, I hope you don't mind that I've added Skwxwu7mesh-ulh. Travis Henry (talk) 20:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think there's a slight cultural conflict too; the idea of an ethnicity being attached to a landscape, as defined by langauge, is very very "European" in origin, aka "natoinalism". The nation-state.  IN the case of local societies, people speaking the same langauge were often different "states" and "state" wasn't in a territorial sense eitheer, or not specifically as OMR notes.    The whole concept of "native countries" is an outside imposition, and can't deal well with mixed societies like the Nicola or Colville where a territorial identity has superseded the  thnic onees......  In the Kwakwaka'kwakw case the Kwak'wala-speaking "states" comprising it now were in those days arch-enemies, e.g. the Danaxdaxw and Awaetatla.  Similarly Haida Gwaii is a modern fiction as a state concept, as the old chieftaincies were very much separate "countries" in a political wsense; they have only been seen as one group because of teh linguistic classificaiton stsytem defining ethnicities/nationality; shared territories like Skwxwu7mesh/Tsleil-waututh/Musqueam etc are a further issue; the Native Countries article I think is problematic in its conception, imposing a white man's conception of native territoriality taht perhaps is just nt going to fit, square-peg round-hole.Skookum1 (talk) 17:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Some Indian peoples may not identify with particular landscapes, but many (most?) did and do, such as the Navajo, Crow, and Winnebago. And even in the case of peoples who didn't traditionally identify with a homeland, the process of treaty boundary delineation and reservation formation has provoked (or has the potential to provoke) such an identification. What you said could be applied to Middle Europe of two hundred fifty years ago, when neither "Germany" or "Italy" existed as unified territories, but rather as numerous (often antagonistic) polities. Times change, and even if there weren't traditional names for the Native territories, such names are being coined now, in most cases by the Native peoples themselves. In my Native Countries work, I make no claim that these names are in all cases ancient traditional names. However, I have extensively referenced where each country name comes from. While I recognize there is value in being able to distinguish what comes purely from Pre-Contact times, I think it's important to recognize that Indian peoples' own conceptions change, including the conception of national territories. Also, the term "native country" is not limited to territories that include an entire language-territory, any more than the wiki-page for "Countries of the World" would include only "Francophonie", but exclude France, Monaco, and Belgium as countries. In fact, the name of each territory of the Kwak'wala-speaking polities would be welcome inclusions. However, if there *were* a name for a super-political territory (such as "Kwak'wala-land"), or if such a name is coined (especially by Native peoples themselves), then I would include it as well. The lack of sub-ethnic territories on the Native Countries page (such as the names of the territories of the various member tribes of the Powhatan paramount chiefdom within the country of Tsenacommacah, such as Pamunkey Country, Mattaponi Country, and Chiskiak Country) is due to my ignorance rather than an attempt to homogenize. Simply, the Powhatan name of their confederal territory is known, while names for the local tribal countries or districts are (as far as I know) unknown. Travis Henry (talk) 20:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Lastly, it is possible for a Nationality or Ethnos to have a territorial conception of itself, yet not be united in a single Polity or State. Travis Henry (talk) 19:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not the point. These concepts are not universal, unless you want to play semantics. Admiral as it is, the idea of "country", doesn't equate.  It's like the thing of "nation", "tribe", etc.  I met a Mohawk woman and I kept referring to the Kwakwaka'wakw tribes, and she said, "We are not tribes, we are nations".  I said, "Well, tribe, nation, whatever, the word in our language doesn't mean any one or all of those.  So it's not really about the English word, but what we call ourself."  So,  it is possible for a nationality and ethnic group to have a territorial conception of itself, it's not possible for a general concept to fit all indigenous people everywhere.  It just won't work all the time in every instance.  OldManRivers (talk) 19:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Gulf of Georgia language map
Hi there; was looking up googles on "Gulf of Georgia" which because of teh Salish Sea nonsense I think needs to get split off from the Georgia Strait article.....and should be anyway. In the course of looking I cam across this Sto:lo commissioned map which has an intersting and probably unsavory-to-you boundary, and is also missing hte Nooksack and Skagit (who are not Lushootseed-speakers as the map shows, not the Nooksack). i was hoping this was one of those fancy layered maps I know are out there; I'll try and dig that up again, keep on meaning to. Anyway just positing this map FYI. How'd'ya like my tribal viking stomp, btw?Skookum1 (talk) 15:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Geez just glanced at that map again; more politics - Cowichan Lake is shown as being Ditidaht territory, yet I know it's one of the Qu'wutsun peoples' territories, maybe two of them.....Skookum1 (talk) 15:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * That map is funny. I've also seen the treaty maps for Musqueam, Burrard, Sto;lo, and I think Tsawassen.  Anyways, they all claim the North Shore mountains.  Musqueam claims up to Lions Bay or Porteau Cove (I can't seem to remember).  I can understand land titles to resources through marriages and such, but direct ownership of the land as property seems nonsense to me.  Yeaa, yeaa, I'm biased, I know.  But it just does not make any sence with what "facts" Musqueam puts forward.  They have no stories, names, or anything that connects them to the land in Burrard Inlet or the North Shore mountains.  We have history all over the place here, yet they have absolutly none.  Some history like "Oh we picked berries here" or "We fished here", but nothing around the Transformers or other events in the past.  Interestingly enough, Stanley Parks lease was up and the feds left out the native people in the negotiation process.  Ummm, wait, isn't Crown lands up for land claims?  Well, turns out the SN Band Council was advised by their lawyers not to do it because it would "jeopardize other negotiation processes".  There was also some fear about Musqueam or Burrard blocking it.  Yet, the courts decided with the Kitsilano Court case, and the SN won.  From what I was told, the SN went to Burrard and Musqueam to join forces, as all three nations go in together, but they refused, and then tried their own court cases.  They didn't have enough evidence to support their claim, SN did.  And we have more then enough evidence against Stanley Park.  Plus, the Parks Board doesn't like dealing with the native people. Me and my mother thing one of them is actually racist.  Hard to say though.  Anyways, that's that.  OldManRivers (talk) 17:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * other interesting finds here and here. You may already have those in the Skwxwu7mesh library resources, but just in case you don't figure you might want to look them up; probably in UBC or the VPL or Archives; orderable on the antiquarian market via Don at MacLeod's Books at Richards & Pender.Skookum1 (talk) 15:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Indian rodeo
Just found it and tagged it, added some cats and some FN-content; figured I'd give you heads-up, though again this is more for the Uklatcho and Shackan contributors than yuorself, I'd guess....Skookum1 (talk) 20:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Government Cannery and New Vancouver
Very few of hte coastal outports have articles yet; some do, Namu, British Columbia I think is one. Government Cannery used to be on all the roadmaps; is that Waglisla now? Or was it in Kwakwaka'wakw territory. Also on Kwakwaka'wakw pages, wiki and otherwise, I see mention of New Vancouver. It's not in the BC maps database at the LRDWC....where is it? And didn't it have an earlier name (i.e. an earlier non-native name).Skookum1 (talk) 16:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure where all the canneries/outposts were. I'll have to ask around or keep an eye out in books.  As for New Vancouver, which is actually one of the villages my family is from, is called T'sdzis'nukw a ame' of the D a 'naxda' x w tribe.  It's east of Alert Bay, south of Turnour Island, Gilford Island, and Village Island,  and is in the Johnson Straight.  The Island itself is not far from Vancouver Island.  OldManRivers (talk) 17:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Government Cannery, British Columbia, capital-g capital-c, was a formal placename, although there were lots of other canneries and govenrment canneries; this one big enough and important enough to show up as a "major town" on the coast, in the days when Ocean Falls also was a going concern. I think it may be Waglisla now; Namu's in Heiltsuk, Haisla or Owekeeno territory, no?  I think Kitasoo already has an article; ultimately they all should; see WikiProject Wikipedians for local history which if that's not the link for see Talk:Local history; IMO this dormant project could be revitalized in tandem with the indigenous peoples' project; partly because many many places are both native communities as well as having settler history; which is why sometimes we've got "reserve" categories on simple placenames; Hartley Bay for instance.  Anyway all the whiteman-name outports as well as all the traditional villages should all be in place.  I just linked a few Haida moities on Robert Bringhurst by teh way, one of hwich contains the Haida spelling of Koona, British Columbia, Qquuna or something like that.Skookum1 (talk) 17:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW do your people have any stories about what happened with the Danish colony out at Cape Scott? Probably I'm sure there's some Kwawkwaka'waw viewpoints on Sointula whichy I'd be interested to hear too....did the Finns intermarry much?Skookum1 (talk) 17:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm just going through Chiefly Feasts again. I forgot how much these books irk me. It's just creepy to see my culture looked at through such clinical descriptions. No where in this book is there anything to do with the spirituality, and such, of the dances, ceremonies, or anything related to the faith/beliefs of the people. It's as if the potlatch had none of that. Interestingly enough, I can see how these anthropologists take on the culture, effects the culture. There is a major difference, in modern times, between Kwakwak'awakw culture and Coast Salish: the spirituality. I think that's what really survived during the potlatch ban with the Coast Salish where as not as much with the Kwakwaka'wakw. I think it's there for the Kwakwaka'wakw, but the reverence, the sacredness, the power of it. These are still felt in the dances, songs, ceremonies, but the peoples reaction to these is different. It's just different. I don't know if you could really understand what I'm saying though. I think nations over the coast all held onto different things. The Haida obviously held onto their art. The Kwakwaka'wakw onto the potlatching. etc. etc. So there's thing to be learned from each other, and much we can learn from what we held onto. From the Kwakwaka'wakw potlatching, the art has come back very strong for our people. For my people, we held onto our winter ceremonies, and now our singing and songs is really strong. There is of course major work to be done for revitaliation, then regeneration. Oh well, just an rant for me. OldManRivers (talk) 17:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

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Salish spindle whorl
Figured it's time to redlink this, though I'm not prepared to write it :-); Spindle whorl currently redirects to Spindle (textiles); Spindle whorl (Salish) might be a title option. I found this which will be a good link; there's also one on http://www.coastsalishgathering.com which I found while researching the Salish Sea bullshit.....Skookum1 (talk) 18:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it would be Spindle Whorl (Coast Salish). OldManRivers (talk) 19:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, of course; one thing, Wiki conventions probably want a small-w on the W; Spindle whorl (Coast Salish). I think the Xa:ytem website also has a nice picture somewhere (http://www.xaytem.ca I think), they certainly have a couple of nice ones on display.  You ever visited out there?  Worth a trip, for sure, and tell Linnea (Battel) I say "hi", although we only know each other "internetally"; her father was apparently a Chinook translator for the CPR and was helping the Oblates do a Chinook Bible until the Oblates shelves the project and/or Chinook became taboo in BC FN language studies.....if you go out there, drop by St. Mary's and get its proper current institutional name, something like Toti:lthet but I can't find it on Sto:lo websites anywhere. St. Mary's Mission and Residence or whatever its name shoudl be definitely sholud have an article.  not sure if they're still there, but the In-SHUCK-ch offices are there, and other gbands, though maybe they're at Lakalhamen on Nicomen Island now....Skookum1 (talk) 20:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

FYI new/old tribal/history resource
Pls see Talk:Coast Salish where I posted a summary of old ethno write-ups used by genealogy.com; the link is to Washington but if you click around you'll find stuff on Canada-side peoples; interesting list of villages not seen anywhere else, also some breakdown of languages/groups I haven't seen before; esp. re Interior Salish and lower Columbia peoples.Skookum1 (talk) 14:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting btw in that it says that the Chilliwack-area Salish were originally Nooksack speakers rather than "Cowichan" (which the page uses for the Halkomelem-speaking group(s)).Skookum1 (talk) 15:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This is the link to the FN site I bcc'd that testy email to you about; the email bounced back, apparently; the author of the site doesn't want to hear back, I guess.....Skookum1 (talk) 16:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)