User talk:OldManRivers/Archive 5

Stuff
more stuff 4 u:
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * Skookum1 (talk) 21:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That probably goes to the page I have it open at; I was looking for info on Haina, a Haida village in the Gold Harbour area; Gold Harbour is listed as a National Historic Site but not, in Parks Canada's registry, by that name.   This looks to be one of thoes older-era totem pole books with misperceptions etc but we'll see; I'll browse it and if tehre's anythign itneresting I find on Kwakwaka'wakw sites/peoples I'll be back.  PS won't be very busy here today/tonight - I ahd rotavirus last night and spent the night in hospitalSkookum1 (talk) 21:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Table of contents - yeah you better have a look at this; not old-era like I thought and has a lot on the potlatch ban, why villages were located where they were/are, and more....I'm sure you'll find it interesting; if I glitched that link (I hit the keyboard and may have inserted a letter/number into the URL) just scroll up to the top on the previous link to find the table of contents.Skookum1 (talk) 21:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * BCGNIS "Dong Chong Bay" = minor but interesting.Skookum1 (talk) 21:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * BCGNIS listing "Zalidis"
 * BCGNIS listing "Kliquit"
 * suggestion: List of Kwakwaka'wakw villages or List of Kwakwaka'wakw village sites; ditto with other peoples as mentioend I htink above, or on Talk:Haida. Found these while looking into cannery locations (see Talk:List of canneries in British Columbia.  Been sick all last night with rotavirus, feeling human again finally, but gonna pop a dramamine and head to bed.  Hope the dancin's going well....Skookum1 (talk) 04:19, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Chuckchuck IR
I just gotta ask - is that a Skwxwu7mesh word, given a whiteman spelling, or could it be Chinook? Spelled that way you'd take it to mean "waters" as in "lots of waters", converging streams, lots of rain, strong current, whatever; but if read/heard as "chakchak" it would mean "eagle(s)". Didn't notice that you had a Skwxwu7mesh spelling for it, so its original first appearance to me I thought I better fly by you....PS what's up around the Cheakamus Powerhouse now? You've picked up by now that's part of my family legacy, and like Seton a bit of my karma to make up for maybe ;-| though I don't usually put it that way, or maybe admit to it so directly. Must have been bad fisheries impacts when Daisy Lake-Cheakamus was being built and since; any fisheries studies you know of that could be added to the Cheakamus Powerhouse article once I get it written, if it's not there aleady?Skookum1 (talk) 06:37, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I seen that a couple days ago. I'm really not sure.  I have a feeling it's Chinook, but I'll have to ask around.  I was waiting for you to spot it and ask. haha OldManRivers (talk) 06:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm taking a break too
Hi OldManRivers, how are you doing? I'm glad to hear you're taking a break from Wikipedia, because that makes me feel less bad about the fact I have to take a break for a while to catch up on other things in my life, so I unfortunately will not be able to continue working on the Stanley Park article like I promised. But I'll be back on here sooner or later, and Stanley Park will still be on my list of projects to work on. Cool, take care and talk to you later! Moisejp (talk) 00:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been taking a break for a while, but I still come on here and do stuff. For a while Wikipedia was my habit.  But for sanity reasons and to have an actual real life, I'm taking it easy.  Still intend to write crap loads, but I just do it one step at at time.  I'm really waiting to get a hold of this one book that would be a great resource to cite, but I can't seem to find it.  Take er' Moise.  See you around. OldManRivers (talk) 18:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

1 4 U
here ya go - not what I'm hoping to find, which is the "watchmen" figures I've seen in VPL photos found on the bases of trees in the area of teh Pavilion/Kid's Zoo. Thought you'd like this one.....have no idea where Otter Pond was - near Beaver Lake?Skookum1 (talk) 04:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC) Whoooooooooooa! OldManRivers (talk) 07:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Norse pictographs
Just happened to find this while looking for "rock land" to double-check any possible entries for Rockland, as I'm about to write a stub for the Victoria neighbourhood of that name. Check out the pics on this page and x-ref'em in your head with NorthAm pictographs....eerily similar, but there's only so much hairless apes can do with sticks daubed in ochre. Just to underscore that my people had tribal traditions very similar to yours, and I think you'd be surprised if you ever dug into the tribal history of Europe pre-Conversion as to what you'd find; NW petroglyphs also don't like dissimilar to Pictish ones from Ireland (see Newgrange and Drogheda). Not that I'm trying make a connection, just wanting you to understand that hwelitum had a rather different history before they showed up in starched shirts toting bibles and rum...the Conversion did far nastier things to Scandinavia and other European countries, and over a longer period of time, than what FNs were subjected to; it was a bit more like the Indian Wars in the US. Anyway another time I'll ramble on about epic poetry, skalds and cultural practices/religious beliefs. Just because today's white folks are all shopping-mall rats doesn't mean we always were.Skookum1 (talk) 18:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Norwegian war canoe
Yo; here is a website on that longship I was telling you about; be sure to look at the photo gallery but it also has a good rundown on the pre-Christian culture/beliefs/myths of "my people"; the site and its organization are decidedly old-guar church-going folks so the more mystical side of things isn't there; Odin was one of our Transformers, basically. The boat is named after one of his two ravens, this one's name meaning "thinking" (the other "feeling"). I'll see if I can link one of the images directly here, but otherwise if not said already look at hte photo gallery. If you feel like something different, they welcome any volunteers for a day's work on the oars, with a picnic lunch out on teh bay; mix of older people, kids/families etc. but OK; wish I could get a team of boyos and, like I said, get 'er ripping. "OK, boys, the captain wants to water ski!")Skookum1 (talk) 03:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Closeup, sort of, and under sail.Skookum1 (talk) 03:48, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Not boat deco, but still a pretty cool carving, no? The images are pagan, the deer is gnawing on the world-tree, although it's a decoration on a church; this is a doorpost but carvings were mostly inside, although the gables on some are dragon-shaped; can't find an image of one.  These are on stave churches or "stavkirke" which were modelled on old feast-halls and temples; to a certain degree, the spire and skyward-reaching gables were a Christian-era innovation; I visited two of them, Lom, in a park in Bergen, and another one in the Norwegian Folk Museum in Oslo; both were relocated; if you ever get a chance to travel over there make sure you visit the Viking Ship Museum in the same park, it'll blow your mind, the boats are totally different in person than in the pics....  Whatever; just pointing to a past about hwelitum I don't think most indigenous peoples are all that aware of....Skookum1 (talk) 04:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason I say "if you ever get a chance to travel there" is because I know the Norwegians would groove on the Gwa'nina dancers and the Curtis film, likewise the rest of Scandinavia. A showing at the Festival of Ancient Greek Tragedy in Delphi (which I looked for a website for and unless it's in Greek they don't ahve one) would probably be really fitting, and dancing under the Phaedriades, sacred to the god of music and prophecy whose sanctuary you'd be in, would be a trip, no?  Wish I had the right contacts for you.....Skookum1 (talk) 04:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Skudeneshavn is the hometown, Grandma's side anyway, though Grand-dad was born there (his family were newcomers sicne 1850, not sure where else in Norway that line was from, only some vague clues...and that there were connections to Iceland and Scotland/Shetlands in it). Always liked the Shetlands thing - theyr'e the Queen Charlottes of the North Sea, though I wouldn't want to live there; even worse weather than the QCI just not as rainy....Skookum1 (talk) 04:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Transformer sites
I guess you're out dancing and paddling; haven't seen any action from you in the last while....I just found another Transformer site near Skookumchuck Hot Springs - BCGNIS listing "ncát'us"; the springs at Skookumchuck are Tsek (see the Skookumchuck Hot Springs page for the link), also a transformer site, and I know there's a cold-water spring Teiq' somewhere above Pemberton Meadows, where two large streams join the river at the saem time - Ryan River is one I think. Anyway there's so many of these transformer sites, as you know; there's Doctor Point on Harrison Lake, a similar one on Arrow Lakes, and a now-vanished rock outcrop opposite Yale called the Indian Doctor, which was destroyed during CNR construction.....just noting these here, province-wide it's a vast list. I'll be writing BCGNIS to see if there's a way to search for phrases/terms in the description field so words like "transfomer", "cannery" etc can be searched more easily.Skookum1 (talk) 17:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Nigei Island
Might not be worth an article but its namesake is - see this. I know you've never answered me on the Nahwitti, this is the only reference to them in Walbran's BC Coast Names book; thought you might find it interesting and maybe know something about the title and who has it now, if anyone does.Skookum1 (talk) 20:56, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

request your contribution re Canadian residential school system
I've seen you are interested in Canadian residential school system. Would you care to add a few sentences (or more!) to Human rights in Canada? I just started the latter, and it got swiftly slapped with a COAT, i.e. someone telling me off for only really talking about Human flagpoles (which I've also just started, and asked for help with here. Anyway, any contribution is welcome. BrainyBabe (talk) 18:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually if that's me you're talking about BrainyBabe, it wasn't "just mentioning" it's an issue of the title re other possible wordings/usages, and where that term came from. I'm pretty sure it's a Canada-only term, even if the concept is found elsewhere; maybe there's a broader, more global usage, I wouldnt' know.....Skookum1 (talk) 01:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

well, actually....

 * ''and one of the very few indigenous contributors to Wikipedia.....You'll no doubt see that from the page on my Skwxwú7mesh people, which I have a feeling is one of the most extensively written and most detailed article on any indigenous people in North America.

I don't mean to steal your thunder but Im' not certain about all that; re the firs bit it's true if accompanies by "in this region", although I suppose in an absolute sense it's true just because of the pure numbers; but there are actually a lot of indigenous contributors...sadly more ethnographers and linguists than tribal/indigenous people in some areas though.....but that being said, I think you'd be surprised if you looked around the NortyhAmNative articles; some like Lakota or Sioux maybe, or Cherokee or Tsalagi and maybe Dineh and Cheyenne, they'vere prtty larges sometimes; even the cofvrage of certain California peoples can be quite exhaustive; I haven't looked at hte Anishinaabe area lately but I know there's some in-depth articles there. But you're defintely in teh rujnning for most exhaustively covered, for sure....ceratinly a gold standard in this region - though again in the Puget Sound Salish articles there's many that are huge and well0-detailed; likewise in the Tlingit cate - esp. the people one e.g. Chief Shakes - though it's true that coverage and organization is spotty and nothing is quite as "drawn together" as what you've done; you've seen Duwamish and Twana and such haven't you? US indigenous contributors ahve also done a lot re stuff like Yakima War and so on.....thoughg more indigenous prrspective is of tne neeed on MILHIST-related articles....anyway just some thoughts, and encouraging you to look around the FAs and GAs in NorthAmNative....might give you some ideas, too.....I'll be back later about the regional/tribal templates and connected issues as there's lots of overlaps and related problems......Skookum1 (talk) 01:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Here ya go - see the FA, A, GA and B subcategories in Category:Indigenous peoples of North America articles by quality....also this related page...I suggest, though not on an immediate basis, doing what Black Tusk has been doing with his volcano articles - pick one to try and upgrade and peer-review to FA status ......arduous but I think you'd find it rewarding......Skookum1 (talk) 03:21, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess I meant one of the few Pacific Northwest Coast indigenous contributors. I knew there are move indigenous people for other places across the continent.  Sorry, my bad.  And you can't steal my thunder because I have the power of the Thunderbird with me (on Wikipedia)! haha OldManRivers (talk) 19:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Guujaaw reversions
I was hoping this wsouldn't happen to quickly, but it has - see this item on Dekisugi's talkpage re his reversion of Guujaaw's contributions; this is where "outreach" is needed I'd say; I'll throw it by Bearcat and other WP:Canada types who hopefully can be a bit more diplomatic than Dekisugi has been....Skookum1 (talk) 16:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * See the article history at Council of the Haida Nation....haven't responded yet, otehr than to tidy things up a bit....Skookum1 (talk) 18:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:Northwest Coast subgroup of NorthAmNative
Yo; figured you might have something to say about this.Skookum1 (talk) 18:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Interesting tidbit
Yo; was looking around for non-pejorative examples of "Chinaman" in the old times and came across this:
 * ''The Indians, of course, were only defending their territory from the invaders, but few newcomers could see it this way. Dewdney was not easily intimidated and fear of attack never stood in his way. Indeed, he loved totell the story of how he participated in the hunt for a Squamish “desper-ado,” John Chinaman, so named because of his oriental appearance. Another story with which he regaled listeners for years to come concerned his role in the capture of Silpaynim, a Musqueam who was wanted for “a number of desperate acts.” In this case, Dewdney physically overpowered the Indian after luring him from the forest with a bottle of whiskey while talking the Chinook jargon.
 * ''These early encounters gave him a poor impression of Natives and his unsympathetic views hardened with time. Although he came to depend on them as packers and guides during his years of prospecting and road building in British Columbia, he resented the Natives’ lack of subservience and their insistence on being paid decent wages for their labour. His attitude reflected all too well the colonizing mentality that regarded Aboriginal inhabitants as a regrettable nuisance

It's from a bio of Edgar Dewdney entitled The Trailblazer (orig pdf - here). Any idea who that was?.....interesting also was this but I suspect that "Chunaman" may have been a Beaver/Dunneza adaptation of "chinaman" and he might have got his name the same way as the Skwxwu7mesh guy in question.....is there a word in Skwxwu7mesh snichim for a Chinese person? Reason I'm asking is I know in certain FN/NA languages the word is an adaptation of "Chinaman" (Ktunaxa and Nez Perce I recall; also I think Nuxalk and maybe Secwepemctsin)....a bit of my own tub-thump an;d obviously politically delicate, but like so much historical fact the truth is usually highly indelicate....Skookum1 (talk) 15:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's pretty interesting. I don't know who it is, but I'll ask around.  Our word for Chinese people is "Chay7min".  Original eh? lol.  We actually have a wiskey song talking about paddling out to the Chinese to get our wiskey because they were the bootleggers at the time.  Not many know it but I want to bring it back. OldManRivers (talk) 18:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Indigenous name for Kermode bear
Yo; just happened to stroll by that page as a result of finding stuff on "blond" brown bears in the northern Alaska Panhandle (see ABC Islands) and found an alleged native-name for the kermode; see this - is that Kwak'wala or do you recognize it as beying Oowekyala or Heiltsuk maybe?Skookum1 (talk) 22:37, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No Idea. OldManRivers (talk) 23:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * But "musgamagw" is a Kwak'wala word, no? Isn't it part of the one of the band/tribe names or organization names? What's it mean?  Anything to do with bears, or spirits?  I suspect it's a Heiltsuk word; I'm always irritated when I find pages that say "the ineigenous/native name is xxxxx" for something, as if there were only one indigneous language; enviro-groupies are just as bourgeois and half-educated as their redneck suburbanites neighbours, though they have better taste (maybe) in Goretex.....Skookum1 (talk) 03:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Musgamagw is a Kwak'wala name for a group of tribes (I don't know specifically, but I think the tribes in the grouping are Dzawada'enux, Gwawa'enux, Kwikwasut'inux). Kwakwaka'wakw cultural geography was kind of grouped into four reigions. The West Coast of Vancouver Island, The northern inside island, (The Kwagul, Namgis, Mamalilikala, Ławit'sis, Da'naxda'xw), the Mainland (Kingcome Inlet, Guilford Island, Hope Town, Knight Inlet, etc.), and Southern territory with Cape Mudge and Campbell River area.  The ranking system kind of shows this.  At one time, the Gwawa'eunx were on the top of the ranking system and the neighboring tribes were up there along with them, but the Kwagul went to war and sacked the Gwawa'eunxw tribe, thus taking their position in the ranking order.  After that happened, the potlatching was mot extensive in that area of the territory and thus Village Island people and Nimpkish people rose along with them. But I know so very little about Kwak'wala. OldManRivers (talk) 22:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, I thought you spoke/read it a little; I'll drop by one of the band webpages or Kwak'wala language pages and see if I can find out.....Skookum1 (talk) 16:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Another indigenous contributor
Yo; you've maybe seen my reversion of major changes to Potlatch by User:Gisbutwada; plase see my welcome note on his talkpage and add accordingly as you see fit; I ahted having to do it, there was a lot of new information, but all highly POV and without regard to the previous content.....I hope I was diplomatic enough......it's occurred me to email User:Guujaaw directly, i.e. presuming that he['s the eral Guujaaw, and explain/welcome/re-invite him as he has no made no edits since those we had to reverse.....Skookum1 (talk) 16:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hahaha. I think this one might be a good friend of mine.  I just sent my friend and email to see if it's him or not.  I've been trying to get him to contribute because of how abysmal the Tsimshian article is but I was afraid he was get real POV everywhere.  (If you think I'm bad, I'm nothing compared to him. lol.)  I mean, this is all assuming Gisbutwada is my friend.  OldManRivers (talk) 08:03, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a given that indigenous contributors are often gonna be kinda ...... testy.....but I'm mostly concerned that if they don't learn the POV and respect-other-additions stuff their contributions won't remain in the long run; I know you understand this now - that even tribal pages are subject to WP:OWN even though in native culture traditions. ceremonials, storeis are "owned"; in Wikipedia they're not and brow-beating whitey or "ignoring hte white world" is fine and dandy on band/tribal websites but it won't wash on Wikipedia (even if I'm not around ;-D); Guujaaw's edits obliterated mention of British Columbia, even of the perspect of teh Northwest Coast ("North East Pacific"); "objective rather than invective" is something I've had to learn; and in some cases even when I'm trying to "enforce" NPOV to the politically-righteous the NPOV agenda sounds/looks POV (e.g. this particular battleground-page and see Talk:Alaska boundary dispute for another).....let's just say you get more flies with honey than vinegar, and indigenous article pages will spread the indiengeous content/culture/message better if they're not written from a negatively-driven viewpoint or in hostile language. I didn't actually read in detail what he'd done to Potlatch, jsut saw that a lot of (your) original content had been wholesale shoved-aside; I'd promised him on his talkpage (to which he hasn't replied) that I'd integrate what material of his I could back into the article, but haven't had the time yet; it's one of your "pet" articles, I was hoping you might engage his data and "knit" it in properly....it's occurred to me before that an indigenous-outreach person who could intermediate native customs/politics with the demands of wikisapce woulc be a good thing to have, i.e. someone who not only recruits, maybe via organizationa l as well as personal contacts, indigenous contributors and schools themn in what wikipedia is, and what it isn't (e.g. WP:SOAP

, but encourages them to use it to educate the outside world about their people/culture and political aspirations; without shouting in their face about it, y'see.....people won't read invective or diatribes; but they will read interesting, thoughtful and friendly write-ups....and there's a lot of complicated issues that there's not point in saying "white people don't udnerstand" if you refuse to give them the chance to understand, more specifically if you refuse t oexplain it to them in such a way that theyy'll listen.. Wikipedia ain't a one-way street (though in many cases I wish it were)......not meaning to lecture, just trying to explain why it's important there be someone ready to make indiengeous people wikipedia-friendly, as well as around here to make wikipedia indigenous-friendly. A lot could be accomplished, needless to say, if enough people from the cultures are around to mediate/mitigate not just tribal content but also give the native side of non-indigenous articles. And help resolve spelling standard issues - e.g. it looks like your buddy's user name is in a variant spelling sysmte for Smalg'yax (wherever tha apostrophe is supposed to go), ie. there's a Tsimshian-oriented Gispudwadwa article vs his username Gisbutwada; one may the spelling system used by ethnographers, the other that used by the actual bands, or by a paritcular band? Between you and him, and anyone else who might contribute (Guujaaw? Bill Poser?), I"m downright certain that an article titled osmething like The clan system of the Pacific Northwest Coast is very much needed, i.e. where the clan linkages between and within the different nations can be explained, and all the variant names put in one place/listing.....I gather, from my shallow knowledge/readings in this area, that the clans were Tsimshian in origin (in the north anyway) so it's appropriate maybe to have the particular clan artlces 9like Ganhada and Gispudwadwa)_ in Tshimshian, but they shoudl have in their content the respective Haida/Tlingit/Gitxsan/Nisga'a/Haisla/etc variations in them; or else just make the pan-tribal clan articles Wolf clan (Pacific Northwest), Eagle clan (Pacific Northwest) Killer-whale clan (no need to have the PacNW disambig there I think), and so on (clans up in Lillooet are bear, frog - and crane). If people like you and he aren't around, the indigenous articles are going to sound like th old Catholic Enccyclpedia stuff, mis-apprenehsions mixed with mistakes; ....anyway I think you see where I'm coming from, I hope you put a good word in form e with your buddy; I hated to seem like the Big Blue Meanie but it was just too much of a huge re-edit of potlatch all at once dfrom a brand-new contributor to be tolerated...I didn 't mean to act like a wiki-cop....Skookum1 (talk) 14:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't have to convince me of NPOV. Although I don't exercise it to it's fully (because I get away with the little tid-bit here and there), I do respect Wikipedia's policy's and procedures because they are effective. But I ain't the one you need to convince. lol OldManRivers (talk) 19:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Pacific Northwest Coast clan system
Or "systems" as I appreciate that the North/Central Coast phratries aren't (?) shared by the Gulf/Puget Sound/FV Coast Salish etc......the title format I pulled from Anishinaabe clan system and there's also Cherokee clans....there are Interior clans, too, but not connected except maybe to the Gulf/Fraser/Puget Sound clans, I'm not sure.....got going on this this afternoon because Wolf clan as a search led me all kinds of places - including Wulfing, which is the wolf clan one of a related people to my own ancestors (and we may ahve been Geats too, in the misty past, Norse and proto-Norse, well, we got around....).Skookum1 (talk) 20:39, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know if it can be that expansive. Kwakwaka'wakw clan system would work, Haida clan system would work, but I don't know about Pacific Northwest Coast clan system because it's not homogeneous across the board.  I know some northern people like to say the "Wolf Clan" originated out of their tribe (I think the Tsimshians say that), it seems weird to me.  For the clan system I know of (Kwakwaka'wakw), each clan has it's own origin story and where they descend from or why they descend from that ancestor/crest.  I also don't know if there's enough citable research/published material for something across the board like that.  Plain and simple: it looks and sounds weird for an article. OldManRivers (talk) 21:47, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess waht I'm talking about is North Coast only then; it's in that sphere that the Tsimshian Wolf Clan is so described - including by the Haida and Tlingit and the Gitxsan and Nisga'a; also the Salmon-Eater/Eagle clan. I dont' remmber teh details; but even the clan-names are similar....there were close ties between the clans, such taht to me it almost sounds like the clans were more the true ethnicity than the language gropus were; language was where you lived ,clan was who your family was; a Ganhade at Kitselas or Lax KWalaams would haev immeidate familly at Stkidegate, a Killerwhale clan membr from Cumshewa would ahev close alliacnes with different Tsimshian and also with the Heiltsuk and so on.  The Tlingit/Haida/Tsimshianic clan system - like your friend Gibutsade indicated, what htey mean by "Northwest coast" is different fgrom what those of us fartehr south define it is (including yourself).  Anyway it was just an idea; ever since I foudn the Tsimshian clan articles I've been thinking/wondering how to integrate a multi-tribal account, adn njst don't know enough to compse it; the clan system in Gitxsan-Wet'su-wet'en clan system is the basis of the ir legal/cont=stitutional system as per Delgamuukw.....maybe hte only way to do it is tribe-by-tribe clan systsem, e..g Tsimshian clan system, Haida clan system, Tlingit clan system and so on....I'm not sure but i gather they're much less important in Coast Salish territory, or have a differnt kind of meaning tht is.....anyway all pretty complicated for an amateur whitegyy; just frustrated by th lack of integrated information sometimes.....Skookum1 (talk) 01:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * My friend replyed back and said it is not him. So much for that.  As for the clan system, Coast Salish do not have a clan system, nor anything resembling the organizational structure of the Northern tribes.  More affiliated with your house, and in terms of geography, Coast Salish territory is more diverse then any other nation in the Pacific Northwest Coast.  For example, how many languages are spoken in that area, but are still quite connected?  Yeah, governance was more house and village based with no clan system.  We are also patrilineal, along with Nuu-chah-nulth and Kwakwaka'wakw, but everywhere else north is matrilineal.  Matrilineal cultures think they're all that and a bag of chips becuase of their anti-patriarchal system like European cultures/systems, but some patrilineal cultures work fine too.  A lot of far north people are also surpised to learn we do not have a clan system. OldManRivers (talk) 08:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Sculpture
I expanded content there quite a bit, it had been very specious and linked to totem, which also has a section on it which I gussied up a bit. Figure you might want to go over my edits/statements and amend accordingly.Skookum1 (talk) 02:39, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Longhouses and bighouses again
Just looked at Native_American_long_house and wondering what you might amend it to; Northwest Coast longhouse would seem to be the obvious title and it doesn't have to be about longhouses only; the bighouses can be in there; the passage makes some odd comments about totem poles and like so many articles has that US-side content-bias....there are of course more than one kind of "longhouse" nad the Coast Salish style is way different than what occurs north of Johnstone Strait, no? The section on the Ozette dig that follows could be complement by one on Xa:ytem; the modern era of new lonhouse construction isn't discussed at all, or insufficiently if there is a mention....Skookum1 (talk) 14:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, check it out - searched BC Archives for "longhouse" and there's only eight images online, two of Thunderbird Park, a bunch of interesting shots from Bella Coola c.1894 and single longhouses at Friendly Cove/Yuquot and.....that of the chief of t he 'Namgis. These are all PD-Canada - crop 'em and we can use 'em (my cropping tools don't work well, so...).  The Bella Coola ones have some intersting features - the separate feathers on the thunderbird on the gable, the sailor's outfit on the chief commemorated by the one big longhouse - and those conical-shingle turrets on the longhouse itself (?!!).  This is I think before the Norwegian colony there moved in or I'd venture it was influenced by Norwegian designs as I've never seen those on a longhouse before; maybe they're in emulation of church steeples?Skookum1 (talk) 14:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Been finding all kinds of things in a search for "house" at BC Archives, not many longhouses so far - "all of the above" will turn up again; but among those few otehrs I've found was this view of Alert Bay which I thought you might like....Skookum1 (talk) 15:19, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is an interior shot, also from Alert Bay; useful to illustate the longhouse article I'd say....Skookum1 (talk) 15:41, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This is [Kwakwaka'wakw as the description says "Mount Waddingon (RD)"; maybe you recongize it as to where?
 * This one's on Gilford Island - why it's called a "ranch house" I don't know; must be misrendering of written description?Skookum1 (talk) 15:44, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Alert Bay again and again the 2nd one strikes me as very familiar...I think those are teh original St. Michaels' buildings, before the ones Umista is in now; the pair of totem poles I've seen in my Mom's pics of the place, I think it's the same pair; this group shot shows the old school building porch...
 * another house-frame shot

Well, I finally burned out on page 54 of 141 search result page; if you feel like continuing the poke-and-look, this is the page I left off on, and has links to T-Bird Park pictures......more than enough so far, but makes me wonder what else there is; I didn't link up some of the North Coast things I found, one for Gold Harbour, another for Capt Gold's house in Skidegate, another of Masset....it's my birthday, I'm going to try to unplug from wiki (HAH! you say).....Skookum1 (talk) 16:17, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * this longhouse is unidentified but it looks to me to be Coast Salish; Musqueam, Xwemelchtsen, Cowichan, Kwantlen, hard to say maybe?
 * more Alert Bay and yet more Alert Bay - is that a welcome figure or a Dzonokwa or ?? and here's Alert Bay again and again. Probably teh most-photogrphed traditional village in BC huh? here are some cool eagles and the prow of a canoe
 * "Charlie's Sweat Lodge at Quartz Camp", Cariboo somewhere; nice pic of sweathouse frame, but Charlie wasn't necessarily indigenous....likewise this one and this one - it reminds me of teh shape of the one built at St. Mary's in Mission in recent years (which I've been in two-three times)
 * this pic of a diorama is just a bit weird
 * Holy snap. Those are some good photo's.  I'm busy right now but this time next week I should be free enough to do some work on this.  I'll make a note of it and do some work on wikipedia next week.  One is adding new pictures of my people and nation to the Skwxwu7mesh article and also expanding on the housing, travel, and art section of the article. There have been a lot of cool stuff going on latley in that regard and I can cite a lot of newspaper articles to talk about new artists and our traditional art forms.  Okay.  I have my work cut out for me and I'll get on it. OldManRivers (talk) 18:54, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't forget to search for "Capilano"....Skookum1 (talk) 21:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yo: was looking for stuff en Chief Shakes (the early 19th C. one(s)) ad I found ]http://www.designsbytrisha.com/last_great_potlatch.htm this -"The Last Great Potlatch"] and its subpages. alltext but an interesting read..."
 * Also from the "they're all that bunch", but another bighouse restoration in Alaska. Pics aren't PD but this defintely would go in an external links section....Skookum1 (talk) 16:59, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Cheekeye cite
I guess I could just add it to the village article, but I thought you might find this interesting: INTRODUCED TO COL. MOODY. On reaching Victoria Mr. Moberly at once called on Governor Douglas, and in the ante-room of his office met Judge Begbie, who introduced him to a gentleman just recently arrived Col. R. C. Moody who, after a short conversation, invited Moberly to call on him at his quarters. After a lengthy interview with the governor, during which Mr. Moberly gave him particulars of the mining regions he had visited, he visited Col. Moody and received an appointment under him. After being a short time at Langley, he took an active part in surveying the new capital of British Columbia New Westminster, then Queensborough. Shortly after the sale of lots in New Westminster, Mr. Moberly, in company with Robert Burnaby, formerly private secretary to Col. Moody, went to Sqtiamish River at the junction of the Jeakness River with the Squamish, where there was then a settlement of about two thousand Indians. They expected to find gold and coal, but not having proper machinery for coal prospecting, gave up the search and returned to New Westminster. From Alexander Begg, British Columbia from the Earliest times to the Present, pp.347-8. Theres' another passage somewhere about an HBC visit in teh '30s or '40s...to Sta7mes that is.....Skookum1 (talk) 21:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Neto!What year would of this been in? 2000 seems like a large number (we only had around 300 band member after the turn of the century. Well, turn of the last century.  We're closing in on 3500 right now).  It could of been Chiyakmesh along the Cheakamus River but I have read about a village up the Cheekeye River.  There's bits and pieces like this that I have found in a few books that I also want to eventually add, somehow, into the history section. Thanks Skookum! OldManRivers (talk) 22:45, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It was 1859, sorry, intended to have posted that; had to remember page number, go back for link etc etc. This is before the great Pacific Northwest smallpox epidemic of 1862,,,Moberly had only freshly arrived in the Colony, likewise Col. Moody....Skookum1 (talk) 23:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It was either him (Moberley) or Lieutenants Palmer or Mayne, or both, who made the first non-indigenous traverse of the route that would become the Pemberton Trail, i.e. the Cheakamus-Green River route to the Pemberton Valley; I think it may have been Moberly though I'll have to check...there are stories of Americans who tried and made it through, but a handful, and some mention of unknown numbers who tried and never made it...."the mosquitos were deadlier than the Indians" :-D ......before the epidemics there are legendary/aporyphal accounts of huge populations at Lillooet, Seton and Pembrton; can't see why the same wouldn't be the case in the Squamish area and elsewhere, although maybe it's only in fishing season that these populations apply....Skookum1 (talk) 23:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Lists of clans and houses
So far I've only proposed such a thing on Talk:Tlingit but did add available clan/house lists from the Alaska Native Knowledge Network website, which is excellent and has lots of range/depth - check out [http://ankn.uaf.edu/ANCR/Southeast/TlingitMap/ this map and directory of tribes[ for starters. But have a look at Taku people and Auke people, which are the only two specific tribe-articles yet (surprisingly). Reason I'm leeting you know, other than "citing" your work on Talk:Tlingit by eay of example, is that each of the "houses" in the clan lists were actual bighouses/longhouses and in your looking-around you may come across specific house-pictures of these, or other listings like them; useful for ilsustration....maybe about that clan thing the North and South/Central Coast delineation could be explaiend/explored, but it's 1:00 am (daylight time) and I'm ready for bed....made Taku, British Columbia, Inklin, British Columbia, Nakina River, Inklin River and I'm not anywhere near what I set out to do which was to get at Stikine-area articles; these are all precursors/distractions :-| Skookum1 (talk) 05:03, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm...use of totem in heraldry
Figured I'd better let you know about this and see what you might have to add....Skookum1 (talk) 19:17, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, no one who is Kwakwaka'wakw uses the term "Kwakiutl". The Kwagu'ł proper, the first ranking tribes of the Kwak'wala-speaking-peoples is used most of the time, but neither the Kwagu'ł tribe (Pronounced Kwag-yolh) proper, nor the Ligwiłda'xw (Campbell River gang) use Kwakiutl (Pronounced Kwag-ee-you-tal).  In a rare instance it's used for the Kwakiutl District Council, but even though it has the old spelling, people still pronounce it Kwagu'ł District Council (or KDC for short).  Just and FYI. OldManRivers (talk) 20:03, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, but y'see "Kwakiutl" has always been the usual English way to transliterate Kwagu'ł, which you'll have to admit isn't an English word; are you sure the Cape Mudge Band don't use it i.e. in teh form "Southern Kwakiutl"; I'm sure I've seen it on their webpages. The Kwagu'ł band council is also legally Kwakiutl First Nation and while it may be true that the second k is pronounced as g, or the tl can be written as a slash-L (which occors in one European language, Polish, where it represents a nasal that sounds like a 'w').  I agree that it was mis-applied across the ethnolinguistic group; I don't agree that it's wrong; we have many words in English where the prononciation isn't obvious from the spelling, including placenames.  We don't write Moscow Moskva. or Vienna Wien, and we dono't write Germany Deutschland.  In all cases in the region there seems to have been a need, creating by the "Western" perception taht langauge is nationality (not entirely the case, huh?) so groups of people who had not been gropued together before had to find a name for themselves; hence Nuu-chah-nulth, Kwakwaka'wakw and Sto:lo, the compoennt peoples of which had formerly all been known by their particular individual names; there was a term "Aht" for all the Juan de Fuca-Nootka/Kyuquot Wakashans, and as you know Kwakiutl was also miapplied ot the Oeikeno, Heiltsuk and Haisla; something that is appareently so senstive I was vicioiusly and emotionally attacked for simply using the term and asking which of the coastal peoples it was; I was condemned and told I had hurt people's feeling for not knowing the proper names, even though they weren't then current in the press or even in curriculum; keeping cultural senstivities private adn tehn complaining about them when people don't know them is just silly; I'm not talking about  you, just telling you an experience I had re how sensitive I've since learned a lot of things with native history actually are.  Blame it on Boas, I guess, the Kwakiutl thing, and to th need for white people to simplify the complex phonological system/languages of the Northwest Coast in a fashion that could be rendered somewhat intelligible in far away places like Oxford and Sydney and Berlin.  I note that none of the otehr languages have adopted, or been asked to adopt, the now-correct terms (note the interwiki at the bottom left corner of Kwakwaka'wakw).  But imagine if your people had had a writing system that issued from your phonology, and when Skwxwu7mesh adventurers reached places like Hungary and Spain and Italy and England, they had to try to render the unusual phonology of the place into terms the prevailing orthography within Skxwu7mesh snichim could handle and people could halfway make out (few people pronounce "Sto:lo" prooperly - STAH-lo, most say STOW-lo).  I'd be curious to see how a Swkxwu7mesh speaker would handle a complex-soundign name like what Copenhagen is in Danish (Kobnhavn with a slash in the o) or know what to do with Murcia (that 'c' is one big open lisp...), or any number of strange names in the UK or Wales or Ireland.  Would they be mistakes and signs of "Skwxwu7mesh ignorance" or would they be earnest efforts at transliteration?  But we hear about "white ignorance" and such names all the time.....Anyway I raised the issue about the use of Kwakiutl on that page, I know no one there will have the answer I'm seeking; the Cowichan Herald Extraordinary maybe might.  it's a matter of protocol, i.e. protocol in terms of law, like the order of precedence and such....Anyway, time for dinner...how'd you like those Tlingit housepaintings?Skookum1 (talk) 21:54, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I wasn't saying anything about that, merely remarking you were wrong in saying
 * Kwakiutl" is now an obsolete and somewhat un-p.c. term, though still used by the band at Fort Rupert and also by the Southern Kwakiutl around Campbell River; all others in teh same ethnolinguistic group prefer the term "Kwakwaka'wakw" and consider it a "white man's mistake" (even though rival/cousin kin still use it).
 * And about that, I was trying to make a summary; I got it wrong, but it's the impression that I've gotten, apparently a wrong one; except I do note, again, that the Cape Mudge/Campbell River group do use the term "Kwakiutl" in English more commonly than they use "Kwakwaka'wakw". They may prnounce it "your" way - i.e. when speaaking English; in print there's no difference and vocalized consnants in English spellings are not unusual ("Seton Portage" is more ''Sit7n PordEg, accent on the "Por"; the 't' isn't a /t/ and it's not pronoucned "the French way" - port-AZH - and "Seton" isn't pronounced the British way (with a clear second syllable).  Similarly "Briddish K'lumbya"....Skookum1 (talk) 02:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * As for pronouncing names wrong then getting backlash, I don't blame people and would do the same. React differently perhaps, but it's simply about respect.  All you have to do is be respectful in the way you 'ask about the proper way to say it and learn. OldManRivers (talk) 04:27, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There's backlash, and then there's tongue-lashing; let's just say as an FN person you've never experienced it coming at you; and all my rambling above wasn't targeted at you at all; I was a bit fired up because of article/category name issues and all the related confusions of different spelling systems (at least on one page Shuswap language, User:Oghog has undertaken to explain the writing systems. I was more trying to share a perspective than scold you on anything - never bro, never, no scolding ever intended - the point of hte comparisons with Danish names-in-Danish is the same context; it's just in English we say "Danish" for the language, not dansk, and "Norwegian" for the people and language, but not normanna for the people or norsk for the language, and we don't pronounce names in those language in "their" way, we use the English names for them; likewise Paris as "PAIR-iss" instead of "ParEE" (and the French return the favour by pronouncing/writing London as Londres).  I note by the way that some interwikis for certain groups/languages use the new names/spelling, though not in this case (unless that's changed; I'll look at hte interwikis on Kwakwaka'wakw but I'm pretty sure they still go to de:Kwakiutl and fr:Kwakiutl etc.  Anyway I just did a rewrite on Campbell River, British Columbia that included a summary about the Lekwiltok, hope you'll look it over and that it's not POV or "sensitive"; I'll check the notes you made me somewhere about the right way to spell that and name-change the Laich-kwil-tach article too, which could also use your help in revising.  I had a look at all your canoe pics and such; I'm envious not just of all the fun but the degree to which your culture remains alive; my ancestral culture exists only in fits and starts in North America, and the identity I thought I was raised with has been re-defined for me without my asking; troubled as though your people's history has been, count yourselves lucky....Found some various links and stuff which I keep on losing because I have to clear my drive by rebooting/closing the browser; guess I'll drop them all on Talk:Kwakwaka'wakw if that's the subject matter, or on Talk:Skwxwu7mesh etc as appropriate.Skookum1 (talk) 02:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You are right that I would never experience something so I can be empathetic about this a bit more understanding that. I have problems with the naming conventions sometimes and understand the redundancy of multiple phonetic alphabets.  I'm busy until next week, bit hope to get some more written content added and some clean up.  Also hoping to finally add some new pictures to the Skwxwu7mesh page of our culture on the rise and still alive.  Anyways, Live Long and Propser. OldManRivers (talk) 02:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "We" (English-speakers) mispronounce lots of European names, but still spell them the same as the original language does; you'd never guess that Oslo (AWS-low in English) is, in Norwegian OOSH-loo.....Skookum1 (talk) 21:56, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Found something
I was actually googline "Senjextee", which is an old name for what we now spell as Sinixt (and which they've since decided is "too English" and should be Sin Aikst...) and found this House of Commons hearing report from 1927 concerning a submission on fisheries and other matters by the Allied Indian Tribes of British Columbia. There's a specific mention of the Capilano River, in fact, which you'll find interesting, also testimony by Andy Paull.....here's the title section, compressed without whitespace; it begins about a fifth of the way down the page linked: GEORGE V APPENDIX No. 2 A" 1926-27, HOUSE OF COMMONS, SPECIAL COMMITTEES OF THE SENATE AND HOUSE OF COMMONS MEETING IN JOINT SESSION TO INQUIRE INTO THE CLAIMS OF THE ALLIED INDIAN TRIBES OF BRITISH COLUMBIA, AS SET FORTH IN THEIR PETITION SUBMITTED TO PARLIAMENT IN JUNE 1926 SESSION 1926-27 I'd venture that Allied Indian Tribes of British Columbia is probably an important historical/organization article yet to be written, if it hasn't been already.Skookum1 (talk) 03:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

You seen these?
Pacific Northwest Canoes and War Canoe. The second one in particular I think you might take exception to its current contents' near-complete lack of mention of indigenous war canoes.....Skookum1 (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

NA/FN mythology articles
Hi bro; please see and comment at Talk:Native_American_mythology.Skookum1 (talk) 16:52, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Kwakiutl/Kwakwaka'wakw merge reversed
Yo; thought I'd make you aware of this.Skookum1 (talk) 15:15, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Really useful longhouse resource
Hi buddy; happened to find this today, the link goes to teh Haida section butthere's a full and rather detailed accont for each people. Northwest Coast longhouse or Northwest Coast architecture or Indigenous architecture of the Northwest Coast or Indigenous architecture of the Pacifci Northwest maybe ...(because of bighouses etc) seems needed as a split from Native American longhouse. I've been busy making sounds and straits and islands, see ya later....Skookum1 (talk) 16:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Fort Tongass pole
Yo....figured you might find the story of the totem pole from Fort Tongass, which is in Seattle now, pretty interesting; the original was carved it seems at Fort Rupert and was of Kwakwaka'wakw design; Raven clan family connections were how the design/pole got to Ft Tongass, then to Seattle. See this.Skookum1 (talk) 15:06, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Decolonization of the Americas edits
Hi buddy; thought I'd get you to check this; I tried to be NPOV but complete as I could, while being brief. Any thoughts?Skookum1 (talk) 03:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Water-region cats for Island & Coast
Hi D....please check out User_talk:KenWalker. And note the ecotrust link about Kwakwaka'wakw Sea, which they describe as being "reinstated"....ahem, you know where I stand on those kinds of claims ("neologistic history")..but I'm curious, was there a Kwak'wala name for that body of water? i.e. is that body of water perceived as a different "marine space" from the more open ocean farther west, and as distinct from the channels and inlets around it? i.e. a consistent name, known to all Kwak'wala-speaking peoples? Skookum1 (talk) 01:56, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Bridge River Rapids
Yo bro, howya doin'? Havent' seen much activity, figure you're still dropping by from time to time. I finally made t he long-postponed Bridge River Rapids article, figured I'd throw it by you for "sensitivity wording" check to see if it's up to snuff. Didn't bother with line cites as I don't have any of the books on hand....did the Skwxwu7mesh ever get up there to fish?Skookum1 (talk) 16:29, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

anti-Olympics link on 2010 Winter Olympics
HI; was wondering if you had anything to comment on Talk:2010_Winter_Olympics.Skookum1 (talk) 13:54, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikimedia Canada heads-up
Hi bud...don't know if you're around at all, figured I'd give you a heads-up on this; go to the proposed projects in the box at right and note the aboriginal group.Skookum1 (talk) 17:55, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Vancouver
- Mkdw talk 11:53, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Māori
We owe you a debt of gratitude for your suggestions on structure, which have now 'gone live'. I'd be grateful for any further help or suggestions you might have, such as indigenous people articles that you think we could learn from. Ko koutou ki tērā taha, ko mātou ki tēnei taha, kotahi anō te moana, ko Te Moana-nui-a-Kiwa ī ē! Kahuroa (talk) 08:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC)