User talk:OliverTwisted/Archive 3

Bahro Suryoyo
Im sorry to bother you but i have nominated an article for deletion entitled Bahro Suryoyo And for whatever reason its not showing properly on the afd page can you please fix my mistake and tell me what i did wrong thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.226.97.157 (talk) 05:45, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi. Absolutely no bother. I'm not sure what happened on your edit. The tag seemed to be placed properly, and when I tried to add the entry on the AfD page, there was a duplicate. I think you did everything right. I guess we'll have to chalk it up to OES (Overlapping Edit Syndrome). Anyway, it's live now and ready to go. Hope this helped. --  O liver  T wisted (Talk) (Stuff) 05:56, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * thanks so much —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.226.97.157 (talk) 05:59, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * OliverTwisted: As I mentioned on User talk:69.226.97.157, as per Guide to deletion anonymous users cannot complete the deletion process because they cannot create new articles, and part of the deletion process is to create a new page for the discussion. That is what happened in this case. Thanks! --Cerejota (talk) 14:24, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of this guideline. Best regards for the new year. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 05:30, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:ArtofWarSE.jpg
An image that you uploaded or altered, File:ArtofWarSE.jpg, has been listed at Possibly unfree images because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the image's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the image description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you.  MBisanz  talk 03:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC) -- MBisanz  talk 03:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete as test -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff)  03:36, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Terrorism Deletion Watchlist
Greetings, on behalf of WikiProject Terrorism - I'd like to invite you to add the Terrorism deletion watchlist to your watched articles, as it will allow you to be updated whenever a related article is proposed for deletion. In total, 40% of articles sent/added to Wikiproject Terrorism have requests for cleanup outstanding, whether better sourcing, orphaned or in need of images...please feel free to see the entire list. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead) 14:51, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads-up. ;o) I've watched this behavior happen over and over on the AfD pages. It would seem that some editors feel that if they flag something for deletion, they can somehow diminish the importance of the subject; or perhaps just diminish the perceived danger they feel... I haven't quite decided. Anyhow, I'd be happy to pitch in and do what I can to help. Best regards for the new year. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 15:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Denver Jade Fowler
Someone has marked the page I created (Denver Jade Fowler) for deletion? Can I remove this? Can you help me with this? I am still working on the page and somebody marked it for deletion? I would appreciate any help you can offer. Thank you!--Lauraskaiser (talk) 15:49, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Re: The Beau Hunks afd nom
Hey! Props for how you handled that. It's not every day you see people actually apologizing for an oversight. I was thinking of speedy tagging the article myself after first glance. Happy editing! — Twinzor Say hi! 04:21, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the comment. I'm wrong frequently enough that I've become distressingly comfortable with admitting it. ;o) -- Oliver Twisted  (Talk)  04:30, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Denver Jade Fowler
Hello...thank you so much for helping me. This is my first article and I think I am just going to focus on finishing it and learning with it. I was searching some actors and musicians I knew and I was really surprised that Denver Jade did not have a wikipedia...but I am also happy that I get to build it. I can't stop building things on the page. I am already addicted to this! Ha! One question...I wanted to do a box to the right of the page with a pic I found on his website and list the stuff below it like I see on other actors and musicians pages. How do I do that! Thank you for all the links. I will visit them and learn how to do this better I hope. Everyone was so quick to delete my stuff I felt I couldn't get things up fast enough. I promise to never cut and paste again!! Thanks again, Laura PS-Do you think you can help me along with this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lauraskaiser (talk • contribs) 09:22, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Denver Jade Fowler
Nah, I'm not angry at all - I actually don't think it should be speedy deleted. Guy0307 (talk) 10:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Termanology
Hey, you guys on Wikipedia are quick! I've quickly written the Termanology article, gathering information from his Myspace and some interview. I'd really appreciate if the article stays on there and that I get more time to edit it or let other people edit it a little. Tuplad (talk) 10:34, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All pages go through a process called "New Page Patrol." If the article does not meet the basic guidelines for notability, in this case: WP:NOTE, WP:MUSIC and WP:BIO, it is automatically flagged for review and deletion. Unless reliable third party sources are provided quickly, (WP:RS), the article will be deleted according to Wikipedia guidelines. Unfortunately, MySpace pages and youtube videos are not considered reliable sources. I'd be happy to review new sources if they are added. Best regards. -- Oliver Twisted  (Talk)  10:38, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Roger that! I'm sorry if it's been answered in the linked pages, but where do I add the sources ? Tuplad (talk) 10:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See Jay-Z, Lil' john for some examples on formatting references. Also, WP:CITE, WP:REF. Best regards. -- Oliver Twisted  (Talk)  10:54, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hehe, I see you're working on the page too :) I've added some references. There isn't really much to find about him, but I'll be doing my best to put it in the most encyclopedic way possible :)Tuplad (talk) 11:07, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I hate to see a notable subject deleted due to a fixable source problem, unlike WP:COI people who just whine "But Rickyyyy, I want to be in the showww." I added a ref sec, and your Spin source popped right out. I added an interview done at XXL magazine. I'm going to leave it alone for a few days and let you do your stuff. I'll check in a few days, and see what's what. In the meantime, I think you're safe. Cheers. -- Oliver Twisted  (Talk)  11:10, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Haha! Thanks a lot! Tuplad (talk) 11:13, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Jean Adam / bow maker

 * Thanks for the message. What I actually wanted to do, is to link "Grand Adam" to an existing article of the same person Jean Adam / bow maker known as "Grand Adam". If you know a better way of re-routing "Grand Adam" to the existing article, please make a correction. I have no intention of writing two identical articles under different titles. So, again to reiterate, "Grand Adam" is Jean Adam / bow maker. Thank you.Milliot (talk) 09:54, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think a redirect will work. If you haven't worked with these before, you can learn how here: WP:RDR. I believe another editor already created the redirect for you. I'm not sure if this is what you intended. -- Oliver Twisted  (Talk)  10:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

sorting
Hey! I use User:Jayvdb/Deletion sorting tool, for sorting in to WP:DS/C. It only requires you to add three (or four, if you don't have twinkle) lines to your monobook.js. THEN WHO WAS PHONE? (talk) 11:53, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * or manually ... add to whatever WP:DS/C list, and note it in the discussion THEN WHO WAS PHONE? (talk) 11:57, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I'll install the script and configure it for use with Twinkle. That response was lightning quick! Cheers. -- Oliver Twisted  (Talk)  12:15, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

sorry my bad Cock pushup
i apoligize for removing the deletion notices form pages i created i didn't realize that you were not allowed to do that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LBGcondor (talk • contribs) 04:56, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your response. I was beginning to think your account was a vandalism only account. This article is clearly unacceptable. I understand your attempt at humor; however it is extremely dangerous to attempt to provide unqualified medical advice on Wikipedia, especially an "exercise" that could result in severe injury or disfigurement. I would ask for you to consider deleting this article on your own accord, out of good faith. The odds of this passing an AfD discussion are remote, at best. Please read: WP:NOT, WP:NEO, and WP:DICK. When you are ready to create legitimate articles, I'd be happy to give you some pointers. Also, be sure to sign all posts, both on the article talk page and all userpages. Best regards. -- Oliver  Twisted  (Talk)  05:03, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Editor Review
Your review by me was honest and you deserved your comments, Good luck in the future and BTW...



Andy (talk) is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Don't eat yellow snow!

Spread the holiday cheer by adding to their talk page with a friendly message.

Request for help
Hey man! I remember that there was a page on Wikipedia where you could request for assistance with writing an article. Could you possibly give me the link ? Tuplad (talk) 21:08, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course. Check your user talk page, as I just posted a few links for you to explore. Happy holidays. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 23:39, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Ange Kohler
You think that playing DRUMS on ONE notable song is enough for notability per WP:MUSIC? I don't see it. If she had charted the single herself, then definitely, but all she did was play drums on it and that's definitely not enough. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 05:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The exact wording of WP:MUSIC states: A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria: 2) Has had a charted hit on any national music chart. In this case, the guidelines do not exclude musicians who perform on the single. As a number 1 single in Ireland, notability has been asserted. I don't feel comfortable including this in the discussion for the band Hot Liquid Sex. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 05:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * But she didn't have the chart hit, someone else did. Backing musicians have to be independently notable or they're deleted; take a look at, say, Articles for deletion/Chad Cromwell or Articles for deletion/Paul Leim. Furthermore, there are abosolutely no sources for Ange. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 17:38, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My advice would be to make your argument on the deletion discussion, if you feel passionately about it. My main concern is that I don't think it's appropriate to have lumped this article in a very clear discussion about a non notable band, which probably could have been settled by now. While I viewed the examples you provided as a courtesy, my interpretation of the guidelines is different from the editors in those discussions. My understanding is that there is no series of "precedents" which dictate how each individual article is judged on notability, rather... group consensus is achieved on an individual basis. My comment is logged for the record on the AfD, and I have no emotional attachment to the outcome. Best regards. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 17:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Hild Bede
Sorry, meant to make that in template space. Please feel free to delete. Thanks. Rob (talk) 10:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

King of Hungary
Hi OliverTwisted. The articles about the hungarian kings are all false. Truly they were the king of hungary, not the king of hungary and croatia. I give you sources. What else should i do, to show you, that there was no "King of Hungary- Croatia", but "King of Hungary". My article corrects are not unconstructive, but the original ridiculous "King of Hungary and Croatia" are. Please try to let me write the truth, or correct it. Please read the sources, and then answer, who says the truth. Toroko (talk) 13:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As other editors have tried to express to you on your user talk page, you need to post your arguments on the article talk pages, and build consensus before making these types of edits. I am not an expert on Croatian history, so I can't really provide an informed opinion. Please visit: WP:HELP or WP:NCH for more information. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 13:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please tell me something. Whom should i ask, to correct these articles, because i am a new editor, i tried to do a lot of things (for example i write to WikiProject Biography, but nobody answered) but this is simply a lie, that he was the King of Croatia. Toroko (talk) 13:34, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ask for help here: WP:NCH -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 13:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Toroko (talk) 13:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Your warning
Look at my edits again. I assume you're using an automated tool or something; there's nothing wrong with my edits. I'd appreciate it if you'd give a reason for reverting or restore my edits.72.95.233.4 (talk) 08:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, you were not the only one editing the article. Those edits were reverted due to the inclusion of statements regarding controversial religious material, which has to be discussed on the talk page before being changed. It would appear as if your edits were sandwiched in with the other unhelpful edits. I apologize that your edits were included in the reverts. I have no issue with the inclusion of the correction in the USA today article, provided it is formatted correctly, as listed here: WP:STYLE. Best regards. Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff)  08:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

This is terrible...
I'm being attacked right now as we speak. :'( Versus22 (talk) 10:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Me, too... and the sock puppet investigations take forever... -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 11:01, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow! I stand corrected! Maybe it's over. I think I need a valium. ;o0 -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff)  11:09, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe it is... I hope. Versus22 (talk) 11:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the help
Hi Oliver. I appreciate your guidance and patience in walking another newbie thru these pages. Thanks to you my article is updated and will hopefully be approved and remain included. You're a terrific asset to Wiki. Thanks again :-) Happy Holidays !! Victoriasky (talk) 05:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks
Dear Oliver, Thanks for your wonderful tips & guidance. I'm new to Wikipedia & really appreciated your help. Errmm, I have yet another Q - how do I add a sidebar (a column) to include logos/jpg images and info in point form ? - Like the one here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc. Thank you & happy new year! :)Cheers, Charmaine —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charmainechen (talk • contribs) 09:32, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the prompt response:) I've been trying out some infobox templates & seem to have messed up the article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EHelp. Will try to fix it- hopefully in the next 30mins because I'll have to log off after that... Umm... Is there a way to save changes without publishing them (until we're sure that it's error free)? Cheers, Char —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charmainechen (talk • contribs) 09:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I would recommend using the page I included in the last message (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Charmainechen/Infobox), that way you don't have to worry about any bad saves. I fixed the EHelp page for you. If you click on the "history" tab of each article page, you can see each edit which has been created. You can use the "undo" feature to revert any edits which you didn't intend. You might also want to consider: WP:ADOPT. Good luck with your editing. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 10:04, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for helping me fix the mess:) & apologies - for leaving too many messages on your page - because there's no other ways of communicating via Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charmainechen (talk • contribs) 10:16, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Tankboy
I'm not sure how to correctly respond to these messages. The Tankboy TV show is the first item I have listed, so its taken me a few days to put together. I'm still working on it though. I have requested information from several sources and I am still waiting for replies. You guys jump on so fast that it makes it hard for me (as I am still learning) to get anything together.

I am currently assembling information about the new Spartacus show being made for Starz. Its going to be awesome. I accidently found a whole lot of info when researching about Tankboy. I have more reference links to put into the Tankboy section soon. When I was gathering information I did not realize I needed to keep the links. I am now going back through finding that info. I will be much more sorted when it comes to Spartacus. I just love crazy, wild and really out there TV shows. I love the wikipedia concept and I use it all the time to find information about TV shows and decided it was time I got my shit together and added some bits. I'm a bit old and a little slow with some of this new fangled technology but I always get there in the end. Thanks Cooltv (talk) 01:15, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Tankboy
An article that you have been involved in editing, Tankboy, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Tankboy. Thank you. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:23, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Oliver buddy?
Are you okay bro? You haven't edited too much lately. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, it was good to hear from you. Just got back from vacation, so I will be easing back into Wikipedia slowly. Hope things have been going well for you. Best regards. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 17:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

BrokeNCYDE
Hi there. You were active in the previous AfDs for BrokeNCYDE, and on the article generally. Somebody has nominated it for deletion again, and considering your past interest, I thought it'd be fair to notify you about it, even though our views on their notability differs. Dendlai (talk) 14:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Input on TCP reset page
Hi,

Thanks for you input on the TCP reset attack page I posted last night. It's my first Wikipedia page, and I had no idea the page standards were so formal. I was also surprised by the rapid response.

I've edited the page to try to address your concerns, however as I didn't understand some of them, I'm sure I didn't fix everything. Specifically, I'm not sure what needs cleanup. The Wikipedia:Cleanup page is huge, and I"m not sure which of it's guidelines I've violated. I'm a terrible typist and my use of English is not the best, so it would be helpful to point to specific sections of problems which need cleanup; e.g. "section is confusing", "too many hyphens" or "typos in TCP reset section".

I have tried to address the link problems you mentioned; populating the reference section and moving external links to a section at the bottom. Please look these changes over and let me know if I'm moving in the right direction.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

-JB- Jbartas (talk) 00:12, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks like you have some people helping out already, but I'll be happy to stop by when I get a chance, and see if I can help out too. As I often like to point out, maintenance templates are your friends, because they give you a plan of attack when deciding to prioritize what might need to be fixed on a new article. Best regards. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 01:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Re: Art of War
I'm still a bit green at this so I hope this entry doesn't pop up somewhere that it shouldn't. Apologies if it does. Anyhow i'm just a poor boy without even a poor family - my parents left me in the woods and I was raised by monkeys. I really miss my monkey mum. I am polite and considerate of others and currently living in a cave: it is only by serendipity I find myself with an internet connection. So please Sir, Mr Twisted, would you consider adopting me... On a more serious note I'm looking to make some quite dramatic changes to Sun Tzu's Art of War article. I left a brief, of sorts, on mytalk, usertalk thingy. I could do with advising on changes that I am proposing and how to implement them. I should be a regular visitor for the next week or so(as some editing is a course requiement), more intermittently thereafter. I see that you are also researching this endeavor so a collaboration of some description seems sensible. Please get in touch and keep in touch ASAP, for the next week or so, as I want to get an edit or two in prior to my assignment deadline(09/04/09). Working under the auspices of one more erudite than I at such matters might be just what the course is looking for me to do.Fithsun (talk) 00:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * As much as I love a good sense of humor, I will probably be in Europe during the time in question. For a list of editors accepting adoptees, please inquire here: WP:ADOPT. To help out though, I have enlisted a few other editors who have worked on the article in the past to monitor your proposals and progress.


 * Playing the Devil's advocate for the moment, I was wondering if a major overhaul of one of the most popular articles on Wikipedia is the best project to tackle as your first on Wikipedia? There are going to be push-backs. As a new editor, you might not be aware of this, but each edit to the article is watched by several thousand people from all over the world. I just happened to be active at the time your edits went live. There is even software which identifies new edits in a queue, to make sure each one is analyzed by at least one experienced editor.


 * As an example, you might want to click on the "history" tab of The Art of War article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Art_of_War&action=history) to see the frequency of edits and reverts which occur. Also, this article has been assessed by a committee, and while it most definitely needs improvement, it is important that the article not take any steps backward, in regards to WP:STYLE, WP:SOURCES, and WP:CITE. When I was a new editor on Wikipedia, I received a savaging over my first article, so I want you to understand that I am just giving you the "heads up," not trying to discourage you from contributing. I would wholeheartedly recommend joining the communities listed here: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Art_of_War). Also, be prepared to have your references and sources available, because the calls for them will be quick and loud. Once you join the communities, you will have dozens of other editors with whom to share ideas. Finally, you'll want to check out WP:SAND. This is a great place to create test articles, as you become more comfortable editing. Best regards. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff)  06:33, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your advice, have a good holiday - regards Fithsun (talk) 17:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

The Lower East Side Band
WAIT JUST A SECOND

re: maintenance templates on new article

Queer/Strange requests that are notably strange since the article specifies numberous sources including materials that were publicly mass distributed by TV, Cable TV, public knowledge, and personal knowledge of persons mentioned including John Lennon and Yoko Ono. Perhaps before such articles be marked as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xaoskeller (talk • contribs) 09:17, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Please see your user talk page, and the article talk page for a detailed explanation. Please don't take maintenance tags personally. They give you the tools you need to improve the article, and to protect it from Speedy Deletion. Best regards (and don't forget to sign your posts on article talk pages and user talk pages.) -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 09:24, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Smogon University
Note that books, albums, Software etc., or schools, are not eligible under this criterion.It's not eligible under that criteron.-PeRmEtHiUs (talk) 12:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Please review the guidelines again. This is a website, and thus falls under WP:WEB. Furthermore, you have now broken the 3 revert rule. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 12:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Re: Wikilinks
Hey, no problem. :) --User:Woohookitty Diamming fool! 08:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Devlizhman
Excuse me but I didn't make that page. But if I did it wasn't on purpose. I am really sorry if I did. --Abce2 (talk) 16:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Which page would that be, buddy? -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 16:52, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent allegations on ANI
Hi, I just wanted to let you know that I feel that this edit and its edit summary is inappropriate. Basically since day one I have been constantly bombarded with smears of the nature you have indulged in. The sock puppet allegation was shown to be unfounded but it is still used as a thought terminating cliche much to my dismay and frustration. My initial comment to your posting on ANI was not meant to be aggressive and I am sorry if you read it in such a way that you felt you needed to defend yourself by attacking my credibility. Interesting that Source Credibility should show itself such an important aspect of human interaction :) My apologies if you take offense at my last post, perhaps I should not have written it but I feel as though I have let the SP allegations slide for long enough. I hope we can all get along amicably in the future. Unomi (talk) 20:28, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You are absolutely correct. I should have not made the comment. Having been accused once of sockpuppetry myself, I should have remembered the feelings of mild outrage and a certain hopelessness that went with it. You shouldn't be targeted for expressing your opinions. When people are under direct intellectual and verbal assault, things can be said in the heat of the moment, and for that I am truly sorry. I am glad your sockpuppet case was resolved. I am still saddened that admins can apparently act with virtual impugnity, and won't take the time to issue a simple apology for overstepping their bounds, but that has nothing to do with you, and I was wrong to drag you into my pity party. I have no ill will toward you, or indeed toward anyone on Wikipedia. I absolutely HATE conflict of this nature, and therefore probably don't respond as well to it as I should. Thanks again for pointing out that I was an ass, but in a much nicer and more professional way than I descended to by the end of a very long night. Best regards, and no permanent hard feelings? -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 00:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I want to apologize again for perhaps trying to get jabs in gratuitously, my entry point to wikipedia has been in a controversial area that can tend towards the adversarial, as you might have noticed on fyslees talk page, and I am sorry that I brought that to you. Online environments can be minefields of misunderstanding due to the lack of cues regarding intent. I think that you should have an AGF conversation with UncleG and see if you could understand, if not condone, why he said what he did, you might even get your apology :). No hard feelings whatsoever and pleased to make your acquaintance even if by less than ideal circumstances. Unomi (talk) 01:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll hold my breath for that apology. I also wanted to add that I am really sorry if I have ignited any dormant flames with fyslees. I did go to that user's page and withdraw my concerns. If you get any additional grief about this sockpuppet crap, please let me know so I can be more precise in the fact that I was totally off-base, and knew it the minute I typed it.-- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 13:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

India and state terrorism
Can you find sources for Indian officlal statement on this issue.I found one but it's not working . '''yousaf465'
 * I'm sorry, but I have no background on which to offer any constructive info to this article. Please look for help here: WP:INDIA. If you do not believe this community will be able to support you, you can also look for relevant communities here: WP:PROJECT. Best regards. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 14:03, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Googling found one above mentioned but still trying.We have to present both side of conflict.-- '''yousaf465'  14:07, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * What should we do with this.-- '''yousaf465'  14:20, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As the nominator for deletion, I won't be participating in editing the content . I am only pointing out guidelines, and asking questions to make sure a thorough discussion is conducted. I have no interest in the topic, aside from complying with guidelines, and achieving community consensus. I have only made suggestions to be helpful, not to press a political point. Perhaps you might want to communicate with the author of the article for additional support. Best regards again. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 14:27, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the response.I will copy the link to talk page.-- '''yousaf465'  14:30, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I had to face axe just for adding India to SST article!ANd your are asking to merge it They will kill me.-- '''yousaf465'  10:20, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If you are concerned for your safety, ask another editor to make the changes necessary so that your username is not mentioned. If you are talking figuratively about being "killed," meaning fighting other editors to get the information included on State-sponsored terrorism, once a Merge decision is made, it would bypass most basic concerns; as this was decided upon by a long, and thorough discussion of the topic and consensus was reached. However, this seems unlikely since the votes are all over the board. This will exist as it is, and then be relisted for another debate. This gives you time to attempt to expand the article beyond 3 events. You need to look for sources to back up the synthesis of information you have compiled. I really hope you are successful. Can't you find any sympathetic editors on the talk page for State-sponsored terrorism who can help? -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff)  10:27, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I was talking in figuratively.What I have added is with sources except about Indian denial I couldn't find any other source then about BJP's denial.I only add for what I can find sources for.Can you idenitfiy any other unsourced material I will be happy to move it to talkpage for further discussion.You seems to be quiet helpful and civil I appreciate that.-- '''yousaf465'  11:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, after spending a significant amount of time pursuing the information in the sources for the article (at your request), I have come to the conclusion that this article will not be able to meet guidelines to stand alone. Speculation removed, the Lahore incident would certainly merit mention on the State terrorism, or other related page. Alternatively, you might consider restructuring the article to be called "The Lahore Incident", thus not making the same accusations of state sponsored terrorism in the title. Otherwise, I'm afraid I won't be able to be of much more help with this article. Best regards. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 11:07, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I also tilting towards a merge.Also on your request named as Lahore incident.Please also identify OR I will remove it.. '''yousaf465'
 * I have been reviewing your improvements, and the article is moving in a good direction. I've left some additional comments on the talk page of the article (by accident), and will be re-locating them here instead. If you happen to check your messages in the meantime, don't get confused. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 11:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Now that I have a personal situation resolved, I'd like to offer a few other suggestions.


 * To keep an article about a topic as potentially provocative as India and state terrorism, the article will realistically need to have both pro and con viewpoints, to represent a "global view" of the topic. This translates into finding a Pro-India, or India-neutral editor, who has information on the topic, and is willing to collaborate with you. Presenting the argument as only one sided is problematic... firstly, not having the opposing viewpoint makes the article rather limited in scope and content (prompting the initial AfD), while being ambitious in title.


 * Next, I'm sure you've read the concerns of bias by some of the pro-India editors in the discussion currently underway. This is a problem that has to be resolved. Even if the article passes AfD with a Keep, an editor can still cause significant headaches if they feel their views are not being represented. Consensus is best, even though it takes longer.


 * This may be an argument for creating the Lahore Incident article, as this could just be a factual recounting of the events, for which you have numerous references. You could also list the less documented incidents (also mentioned in the article) during the general discussion, or as a "history" of events of this kind. Then, even if the India and state terrorism article is voted off the island, the information is preserved and it then becomes your task to introduce this material into the other, relevant major articles on Wikipedia. Adding a wiki link to an existing page is a lot easier to accomplish than introducing an entire new controversial paragraph.


 * There is also no reason why you can't do both, following the old proverb about not keeping all the eggs in one basket. I hope this was slightly more helpful than the terse comments I was able to provide last night. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 05:36, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * 1.Yes I also want similar edits which mention Indian response or their view point.I have got one.


 * 2.Yes consensus us best that is why I want Indian editor to help but from my experience it seems to be a far fetched thought.
 * 3.No,it already exist at 2009 Lahore attack on Sri Lankan cricket team.-- '''yousaf465'  05:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a big bummer. I personally think the article is becoming much better as it has been edited. It is extremely likely that this AfD will be re-listed for more discussion. If not, I will not re-nominate the article, but instead let more experienced editors or admins make that determination. It's a sensitive issue, but as I understand the guidelines, without a documented AfD discussion, you have very little recourse with regards to PROD or SPEEDY. I think it only takes 1 editor and 1 admin to approve a delete using either method, but I'm not totally sure. With the AfD, there will always be at least 4 sets of eyes on a topic, and in most cases a 5 day reprieve. If the article survives this round, it has a much better chance of remaining intact. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 10:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, I have a hypothetical question for you. Since the bulk of the truly notable information in this article is contained here: 2009 Lahore attack on Sri Lankan cricket team, is there anything besides the fact that you wish to highlight the Indian denial of the incident that supports keeping the rest of the article? Also, the article's author has just been accused of sockpuppetry. You seem to have taken over major editing of the article. Is this going to be a problem? -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 14:04, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * (UTC)You see information is coming in one was just published on 3 or 4 April.It was about LTTE.You see it's about more than Just Lahore Incident.As far as sock is concerned I myself don't have any such intentions.Now when it has been expanded and improved.I think it should not be a concern.-- '''yousaf465'  16:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Please see the AfD discussion board for the latest information on this article. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 02:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have seen it,but I can't comment there.I think they are not reading the sources.-- '''yousaf465'  02:51, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't this same person M. G. Ramachandran and .-- '''yousaf465'  03:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You can comment there, as you have in the past . I don't really think it's an issue of the editors on the discussion not reading the sources. I think the problem is that the conclusions you are drawing would be called Original Research. The information itself is sourced properly, if excessively. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 03:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * But An Indian User asked me not to.Avestin.-- '''yousaf465'  04:02, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * At this point, it appears I may have to agree. You have presented your article, you have presented as many sources as you could find, you have attempted to meet everyone's requirements, and you have advocated passionately for the article to remain. I have tried to assist you, when possible, in a good faith attempt to improve the article. Unfortunately, we have now run across some COI and POV issues, as well as an ongoing sockpuppet investigation regarded to these very topics. At this point, it is probably best that you take a step back and allow the process to conclude. You may want to address the editors who have raised the "specter of sockpuppetry" on their individual talk pages. I wish you the best of luck in your editing. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 04:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not involved in any sockpupperty investigation.But the problem is that this article has to be update you see the report of judicial commission will be out in a day or two.It clear it all up.-- '''yousaf465'  04:57, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yousaf, could you explain to me how this article was authored by a banned editor, and when this was pointed out on the AfD board, you began taking over major editing? It would also seem that you have attempted to introduce this information to Wikipedia before, as is now being discussed on the AfD for the article. I think it is important that you address the concerns now being put forward, before attempting to do any additional editing on this article. The judicial commission's report will not resolve the COI, NPOV issues. Otherwsie, I'm afraid that my contributions to this article, and the discussion will have to be considered finished. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 05:04, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't took over after the this pointed on AfD.I only knew of it when a message in this regard was post on my talkpage.I wouldn't myself have created this article,nor would I like to have indulged in this issue again.Yes I did it before but faced with what I call bullying.Removing information without discussing, and then blocking if another user doesn't agree.I will not edit it further until the issue is resolved.but can I comment on deletion page?-- '''yousaf465' 05:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, you have not been prevented from posting anywhere. My suggestions, and those of other editors, are only that. Suggestions. Unless you are officially banned, or contacted by an Admin, I don't see why you couldn't continue posting on the discussion. I'm not sure it's the best idea, unless you are responding to the new questions directed to you. But I have no authority, or desire, to stop you from doing anything. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 05:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I will response only,if there is a need to respond.-- '''yousaf465'  05:33, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

(From Yousaf's talk page:) Did you just upload a picture of your bedroom to an AfD discussion? -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 05:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No,it's Indira Ghandi's house.I don't have such a bedroom but do dream of it.-- '''yousaf465'  05:40, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Could you please restore it ?-- '''yousaf465'  05:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think that would be appropriate. The comment did not seem to add anything meaningful to the discussion. In addition, I'm not completely certain, but I'm pretty sure that posting pictures of anyone's bedroom on the AfD discussion board is frowned upon somewhat. Considering the standing accusations of COI, NPOV and sockpuppetry, adding vandalism to the list would not seem to be the most prudent course of action. Just a thought. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 05:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sock puppetry ? It's her study not strictly bedroom.and also I also replied a comment which was bit above.-- '''yousaf465'  05:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we each have a very clear understanding of the opinions we each have regarding the discussion underway about India and state terrorism. I will continue to revert anything I view as being vandalism. Please limit your contributions to approved material on the discussion board, or your own talk page, regarding this topic in the future, unless we need to communicate on a different article or series of edits. I appreciate your understanding in this matter. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 06:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Are my comments which I have posted now appropriate. I'm leaving for a long wikibreak and may not be able to reply.If you think there are appropriate then leave them and reply here otherwise you may remove them. Thanks for your help in regard.-- '''yousaf465'  06:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think a wikibreak may be a serendipitous event. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 06:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

AfD discussion for Mark Mikita
The discussion page is there now at Articles for deletion/Mark Mikita. I was still writing it when you contacted me! Regards, WWGB (talk) 11:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Glad to hear it. I had done a speedy for A7, but it was declined and I just happened to see the AfD templates and thought I'd weigh in. Didn't mean to rush you. Best regards. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 11:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Athletes
Yes, i understand. But WP:ATHLETE is clear: ALL World Cup competitors are notable. And both Jakub Hlava and Remi Santiago has competed in World Cup. Hlava has competed 31 times and has competed in the World Champinships. Hlava is also notable by a 16th place in World Cup and being a brother of Lukas Hlava. The Rolling Camel (talk) 13:44, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have not deleted any of these articles... but I suspect you are going to be much like Sisyphus while you are introducing and defending these articles. Might you consider creating a page of World Cup Competitors (Non Winning), rather than an individual article for each athlete, even the ones who have two sentences of information, basically saying "they competed, they lost, they were bummed." I'm being flippant, but it's a thought. Best regards. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 13:53, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No, i don't take that. Delete Remi Santiago. he is not notalbe. But Jakub Hlava is per the reasons i sayed in my first comment notable. If not a 18th place is notable, the we schould delete 50-70 more articles of the same sort. a 18th place in World Cup is notable per WP:ATHLETE. The Rolling Camel (talk) 14:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand your points. Playing devil's advocate for the moment, reformatting may not diminish the notability of the athletes, so much as it condenses the information. If it were in a graph format, there would be no need for a reader to click on a link that contains no more information than the position in which they finished. I did not nominate Jakub Hlava, and each athlete should certainly be judged on their own merit. Some may have enough info for their own article. Some may not... a graph might preserve their accomplishments, even if there is no additional information for a reader to explore. It's just a suggestion. I saw the onslaught of templates on your talkpage, and thought you might want to head off more. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 14:12, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Jet Set Zero
Please check this. It may take some work, digging through deletion logs/etc. I believe it is written like an advert and should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R3ap3R.inc (talk • contribs) 14:50, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * An article which contains marketing verbage should be tagged with the appropriate maintenance templates, not deleted. The reference included is to The Calgary Herald, one of the largest newspapers in Canada. A google search for Jet Set Zero turns up entries in travel guides, as well as other notable sources. (http://www.google.com/search?q=Jet+Set+Zero&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) It's always a good idea to review the guidelines for what qualifies for speedy deletion frequently, as it can change. Please consider reading: WP:SPEEDY. Our goal as editors should be to expand information when possible, not just to delete it. A few minutes on google can do wonders to an article. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff)  14:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, if there is any doubt about the article, you can always nominate it on the AfD boards: WP:AFD. This way, there are at least 3 sets of eyes on each article. Better safe than sorry, eh? -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 15:02, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Does WP:PROD put it up on WP:WfD? —Preceding unsigned comment added by R3ap3R.inc (talk • contribs) 15:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe that PROD sends it to an admin for verification. It can be used if the article does not meet WP:SPEEDY. You can read about the process here: WP:PROD. Best regards, and I'm off for the night/day. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 15:06, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

close Robert Bake (Aninote)?
Five for delete good enough to delete the article? R3ap3R.inc (talk • contribs) 15:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * An "on duty" admin will close the discussion using the proper format. This is not something non-admin members can do. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 00:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Bluck Bluck Sizzle Yum


Boston (talk) has given you a fresh piece of fried chicken! Pieces of fried chicken promote WikiLove and hopefully this piece has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a piping hot piece, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Bon appetit! (Spread the tastiness of fried chicken by adding {{subst:GiveChicken}} to their talk page with a friendly message.)

I'm giving this to you after noticing you expressed hurt feelings about what was said in the Articles for deletion/Source Credibility discussion. I wouldn't have taken the comments in question personally, but since you did I am sending you some comfort food. Try not to become mired in the debate about the debate (about the debate about the debate about the debate) but rather forgive and forget. Those things, along with kindness and civility, It's a key to happy editing! Best wishes. --Boston (talk) 20:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

ANI Discussion
It must be incredibly irritating to have someone say to you, "I know what you're thinking," as Uncle G said in his comment at the AfD, and imply your thinking and reading ability are faulty. Then to get pounced upon by a half dozen other administrators who tell you it is perfectly valid for Uncle G to tell you what you are thinking and insult you for thinking it, and you're wrong and have no basis for complaint! In fact, you might start looking around to see if you're becoming a cockroach. However, some people actually read what he said and realize taking offense under the circumstances is not unusual. In my opinion, though, Wikipedia administrators as a group do not listen well to criticism of members of their group; and Boston, above, has some solid advice: take the high road. I don't usually take that advice myself, but it would make editing Wikipedia more constructive overall for everyone I deal with here - and for me - if I did. Good luck. --KP Botany (talk) 23:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

en.wiki standards of discourse
"The fact that it is of so little regard as to prompt comments like "get over it", "go home and cry to mommy" and such, really shows how glaring this deficiency is. (I made those up, not quoting anyone)."

You sure you're not quoting what I call "drive-by smack attacks" at AN/I? Sounds like you are.

When I first started editing I was appalled at the rampant hostility among editors supposedly debating issues. The number of cheap shots at AN/I, mostly by administrators, makes it feel like 6th grade--and it's not the really young administrators who are the most guilty.

This, I suspect, will be the long run difference among encyclopedias: en.wiki will stand out for being the rudest place on the net.

On the other hand, I've been using act-hostile-first as my own editing mode on Wikipedia for a long time. Lately I realize it has only served the purpose of wasting my time. Along with everyone else's.

Your apology and taking responsibility for your own behaviour is a bright shining star in the right direction. --KP Botany (talk) 07:47, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! And I got beat up in 6th grade, so this is actually an improvement. The funny thing, is that he still hasn't asked me, even after all this mess, about why I voted to delete. Not once. He doesn't understand he had the totally wrong assumption, and that everything he said was mis-directed and apropos of nothing, at least in regards to me. And I don't think I'm going to tell him. I think it will just be one of life's little ironies. Oh yeah, and sorry about taking up your whole userpage crying on your shoulder. Feel free to archive/delete. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 12:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Max After Dark
(From TomCat talk page) Hi. I noticed you were helpful in reverting the vandalism for Cinemax that occurred recently. The editor in question has attempted to create redirects, and has also created a page now listed on the AfD discussion board. If you have a moment, we could probably use someone more familiar with the intricacies of the tv topics, as that is not me. I was trying to retroactively clean up some of the messes that were made by the editor, who has now been blocked for one week. Best regards. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 04:51, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the notice. Some people don't learn that what they're doing is unacceptable. I read the guy's page who kept moving the Cinemax page to false names and he was blocked indefinitely for impersonating an administrator. Anyways, I voted to merge back into the main Cinemax article, since its just an unsourced list of mostly redlinks. TomCat4680 (talk) 05:33, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Ju Manu Rai
Hi Oliver, hope you don't mind, but I've declined your speedy on Ju Manu Rai. A little look at what linked to it established that he's an international footballer.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  11:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw that, and it was an excellent catch. I was just getting ready to send a note to a few of the editors who have worked on Hari Khadka, to see if they wanted to give this article a hand. I'm not very familiar with sports, or sports templates. After you added the category, and I took another look at the article, it looked like the information should have belonged in an infobox. Thanks again for the catch. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 11:12, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'm not into sports either - my humungous number of edits to sports pages are largely due to my patrolling words like posses. I'm hoping that categorising the article will bring it to the attention of anyone interested in that category, but a message to Hari's editors sounds like a good idea.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  11:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Re: Marco Balderi
Alright, thanks. I just saw it on the COI log. Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.--CyberGhostface (talk) 02:33, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Just out of curiosity, where would I be able to access the COI log? I kind of dig removing NPOV and marketing verbage. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 06:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Roy & HG (This Sporting Life) page
Hi there,

Just replying to your post on my user talk page.

That posting was a very weird accident: one second I was working innocently away at Wikiquote (creating a new article/entry thing there), then next second the thing had been created as a WikPEDIA article! I have no idea how or why this happened but have deleted the content of the wikip page & hopefully all will be well.

Sorry for the inconvenience.--Tyranny Sue (talk) 07:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand. The Wikipedia monster eats articles and transfers them to alternate wikis all the time. ;o) -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff)  07:55, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Re: Doom (series)
That's the video game, not the series. There's been a proposal for this at the new WP:VG/id Software task force, so let's see if this gets anywhere before redirecting. Thanks. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 00:52, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There might need to be some more thought invested in this article, as it was identified as an id software stub. If it is for the series, why is the information primarily about the video game? I'm not sure creating a stub, with less information about the series than the original article: Doom (video game) is what the proposal hand in mind. I'll back off of this, because I obviously don't know the history. But, it might be in the best interest of the community to enlist some help with this, perhaps one of the editors who has previously worked on the original article? Just a suggestion. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 01:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Pakistani Trinidadian
Hi! I saw that one of your recent edits in the article Pakistani Trinidadian included removing info about the condemnation of Bhutto's assasination by the Pakistani community in Trinidad. Are you sure it is really worth deleting? What I am trying to say is that the Pakistani community does exist in Trinidad and it was just an effort to add on some references.

Furthermore, as you can see, an image has also been included in the article which is showing a "Pakistani foodstall." I think that is a notable component for clarification. I am in no way supporting this article but what I am trying to say is that in your logic, you will have to delete so many articles relating to the Pakistani diaspora, such as Irish Pakistani, Pakistanis in Kenya, Pakistanis in Tanzania, Pakistanis in Singapore etc. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. Teckgeek (talk) 02:14, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I have no interest in searching out articles on India, Pakistan, or Trinidad. This article came under my radar during a discussion on India and state terrorism. As the editor who authored this is a confirmed sockpuppet, and is indefinitely banned for Conflict of Interest WP:COI and not adhering to a Neutral Point of View WP:NPOV, as well as creating Original Research WP:OR and/or unsourced synthesis articles, this article became immediately suspect. Since there are no sources which adhere to WP:RS or WP:V, the article will need to be fundamentally re-written to become eligible for keeping on Wikipedia. It is usually better to write an article based on sources, especially of this type, rather than finding non relevant content which happens to mention Pakistan or Trinidad. If this information can be re-introduced later, in a format suitable to Wikipedia, I will not contest it's inclusion, provided it meets the guidelines we are discussing.


 * It may appear as if I have an anti-Pakistan bias, but this is simply not the case. It just happens to co-incide with an investigation into a user who has abused editing priviliges on Wikipedia repeatedly, and under multiple accounts, with a clear political agenda. The addition of the Benazir Bhutto article as a reference, by another new user with no significant contributions on Wikipedia, seemed more than a random occurence. Brand new users do not usually end up of the AfD boards, due to a simple lack of experience and know-how. It is unfortunate that your first active contributions on Wikipedia had to occur on an article up for deletion. I do hope you have better luck in the future, and I am available to help if you have further questions.-- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 02:29, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Oliver, I happened to stumble upon this article when I was reading the Template:Overseas Pakistanis and I clicked on the page "Trinidad and Tobago." It was then that I saw that this page is up for deletion. In alignment with your concerns about this article, I believe that the best solution would be to cut out the unsourced info rather than deleting the whole article- this is possibly the best and most equalised alternative. My concern is the fact that if this article is deleted, this will only promp up collaborative reasons for any user to also nominate the other pages that I mentioned above, for deletion as well, since they do not have any facts nor any mentioned sources. It is my opinion that it is best to leave it as a normal "diaspora-type" article, by cutting out all the content that is not relevantly verified. Teckgeek (talk) 03:06, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There seems to be some confusion regarding what qualifies for inclusion in Wikipedia. Original research, and/or unsourced, synthesized content, as described here: WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, should not be included on Wikipedia, regardless of the notability of the subject. Until an article is sourced, it has no place here. No one will dispute that there are people who are of Trinidadian and Pakistani descent. Some of the claims in the article may be true. But attributing demographic and historic "facts" about this heritage, without reliable 3rd party sources, is not appropriate. We can't allow other websites to crawl Wikipedia content of this nature, (assuming it to be reliable) and perhaps link to it, distributing unsourced, synthesized content which is basically "made up" by the author. I have no desire to pursue every "see also" on every article, but neither can I walk away from articles when they violate Wikipedia guidelines, especially when they are authored by an editor who was banned for NPOV, COI, SYNTH and OR. The only way to limit this type of intense, organized vandalism is to create a "bottle-neck", a narrow opening through which all content from this sockpuppet master on Wikipedia has to enter. Right now, I'm part of that bottleneck.


 * If you are concerned for the other articles in question, cleaning up the sources, and finding additional references would be highly appropriate. This article will need to be completely re-written, drawing upon reliable sources, as defined here: WP:RS, which also meet verifiability requirements, as described here: WP:V. No one is saying this subject is not important, the article just has to meet Wikipedia guidelines, and shouldn't be authored by an editor with serious NPOV infractions, and who is currently banned. For more information, please see this link: . -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 03:29, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Look, that is exactly what I am trying to say. I am saying that if there is some stuff in the article that does not meet certain criteria, a good solution is to just remove it- all problems will eventually be finished. As regarding the person who may have authored this article, I am not interested for what he has been banned for neither his editing history. My focus is at the moment, set on this article, regarding the fairness of the deletion.Teckgeek (talk) 03:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Your arguments do not seem to be based on the guidelines being provided to you, they seem to be based upon your feelings about the subject. Much like the author of this article, you seem unwilling to read the guidelines for what is acceptable on Wikipedia. The article will most likely be deleted as OR and/or SYNTH. Wikipedia is not the place for original research, or unverified facts, WP:NOT. If you stumble upon a reliable source for this topic sometime in the future, please feel free to re-create the article for consideration. Best wishes on your future editing. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 03:51, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * If you have concerns regarding OR and SYNTH, how come you are also nominating pages like Aijaz ahmad mangi for deletion, especially when it has around 3 or 4 sources stated? Teckgeek (talk) 03:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As you probably should have noticed, I actually added references, merged Aijaz ahmad mangi with Aijaz Ahmad Mangi and withdrew the nomination of the corrected article Aijaz Ahmad Mangi, after I had a chance to work on it. This is a biography, not synthesized conclusions with no facts. This is an example of the type of article for which "searching for references" is appropriate, as conclusions aren't drawn, and facts aren't stated without reliable sources to back them up.  -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff)  04:06, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Kete Ioane
Just wanted to let you know that I moved it back; it's a capital "I", not a lower case "l". --User:AlbertHerring Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla! 05:14, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Capital D for Dumb. Sorry about that, I guess I should have taken one second to ask. ;o( Thanks for the good catch, though. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff)  05:15, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Quite alright - it happens to the best of us. And I'm not the best of us, so I certainly sympathize. :-) --User:AlbertHerring Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla! 05:17, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Re:Time Out
Regarding the "time out" that you just offered me lately, first of all, let me make it clear that I did not write that "he has written newspapers since 1989." That was already written there by the original author. Secondly, when I wrote the word "extensively", all I was doing was just to intentionally square it up and make the tone sound right. If it constitutes to a grammatical error, I apologise for the offence- not that i've never seen users on Wikipedia so concerned about grammar before.

Thirdly, you seem to have an issue when I labelled him as a writer. For your information, the first sentence clearly shows that he is a writer and journalist so it was from this statement that I concluded that he is a writer. If this still violates some "Wikipedia policies," i'll remove that assertion for your pleasure. Fourthly, I don't know if this is a conception of mine, but in each of your responses that I've been reading, you are repeatedly associating me with this particular "author" which you seem to admire or know so much about. Before raking up all these small issues and emphasising the blame on me, I suggest that you come up with an adequate justification for criticism because as far as I know, your recent reply on my talk page was nothing but a paragraph presenting flawed expression of irritation without a rhyme or reason.

If you are frustrated at my pro-Pakistani Trinidadian stance, then fine, I'll get out of the issue and leave it for the best- all I was suggesting was to cut out unreferenced info, and just leave it as an article that says that "Pakistanis in Trinidad are a very small ethnic group" etc, as is the case with many articles written about different diasporas.

I appreciate your proposal for a time out, but I think I am perfectly in my senses and know what I am doing. Regards, Teckgeek (talk) 05:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay. -- Oliver  Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 05:30, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Removal of PROD from Stefan E. Warschawski
Hello OliverTwisted, this is an automated message from SDPatrolBot to inform you the PROD template you added to Stefan E. Warschawski has been removed. It was removed by David Eppstein with the following edit summary ' (expand and unprod) '. Please consider discussing your concerns with David Eppstein before pursuing deletion further yourself. If you still think the article should be deleted after communicating with the 'dePRODer,' you may want to send the article to AfD for community discussion. Thank you, SDPatrolBot (talk) 20:58, 7 September 2009 (UTC) (Learn how to opt out of these messages)

Melissa Rice
Okay. I tried. I understand that you're just doing your job. I still want to slap you, but I understand. Haha. Have a good one. :)KalistaSinclair (talk) 08:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

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