User talk:Olympicdreams

Welcome!
Welcome to Wikipedia, Olympicdreams! I have been editing Wikipedia for quite some time. I just wanted to say hi and welcome you to Wikipedia! If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on or by typing helpme at the bottom of this page. I love to help new users, so don't be afraid to leave a message! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Oh yeah, I almost forgot, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); that should automatically produce your username and the date after your post. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on, or place helpme on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!  Burner 0718  Jibba Jabba!  23:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Introduction
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help pages
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style

List of multiple Olympic gold medalists
Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for your contributions. One of the core policies of Wikipedia is that articles should always be written from a neutral point of view. Please remember to observe our core policies. . - Basement12 (T.C) 23:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Basement, I disagree with you, as you may have noticed, and think that it's the ranking that's biased, not my revisions, which still seem necessary to me. To repeat the discussion in the talk page of List of multiple Olympic gold medalists:

If Michael Phelps were from Portugal or another country that does not play a dominant role in swimming, he would have many fewer gold medals, because so many of his medals are from relays where he needed his comrades, and it is much easier to win relays if your country has many other top athletes in the same sport. The same is true for Larissa Latynina and most of the others in this list. I think this obvious advantage of people from dominant countries must be mentioned, because it biases the multiple medalist rankings. Probably there should not be any rankings at all due to incomparability of the athletes. I suggest to remove the rankings and order the athletes in an unbiased way, say, alphabetically. Olympicdreams (talk) 20:48, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * For the moment I just added: The ranking is biased towards nations with many top athletes in certain sports, since the athletes with the highest gold medal counts profit from relays and other team competitions typically won by dominant nations. Olympicdreams (talk) 21:24, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Basement12 just undid this twice and wrote in the history: "Undid revision 236115779 by Olympicdreams (talk)It is unreferenced and extremely POV." But the table itself is the reference, isn't it? It is obvious from the table and its links to gold medal lists for individual athletes that the athletes with the highest gold medal counts profited from relays and other team competitions typically won by dominant nations.  So the ranking itself expresses a POV, a bias towards athletes from dominant nations. I think this is a serious flaw; maybe the entire table must be deleted. But try to argue against this if you can! Olympicdreams (talk) 22:38, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * See WP:V. Basement12 (T.C) 22:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This table should not be deleted, it is simply a list of facts. The purpose of the article is to list athletes have won multiple gold medals, it is not the aim of the article to explain why. Basement12 (T.C) 22:48, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * But it is not only a list, it is a ranking. The ranking imposes an order that goes beyond the mere listing of facts. I say: keep the list, remove the ranking. If you keep the ranking you insert a bias, making the ranking questionable, as athletes from dominant nations are favored. Olympicdreams (talk) 22:59, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The ranking is also the way it is. You wouldn't suggest removing the ranking from a football league table just because a team had the advantage of more money, better players, etc. Basement12 (T.C) 23:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That's different: football teams don't get additional chances to win separate events, such as relays with 4 different teams. Olympicdreams (talk) 23:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Basement12, please give a more convincing answer. As I said, the ranking imposes an order that goes beyond the mere listing of facts. If you keep the list, remove the ranking. If you keep the ranking you insert a bias or POV without source, making the whole thing questionable, as athletes from dominant nations are favored. Olympicdreams (talk) 10:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no need for a more convincing answer, what I and others have already said (on a variety of talk pages) is the answer and has been fully explained to you. Perhaps now would be the time to give up your attempts to stir up trouble on talk pages and add, constructively, to the articles themselves? I will also remind you that in the future when starting a new discussion on a talk page it should be added to the bottom of the page, this is where users will expect to find new a new topic and so will be more likely to see it and reply. Thanks Basement12 (T.C) 11:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)