User talk:Orderinchaos/Archive 2009 04

BLP???
Hey there. I thought an admin had better get in and check this article - it's swinging back and forth between the preferred versions of anons. One with a criticism section and another without. I'd say this edit is fairly representative of the warring. GIven that this is a BLP, should it be semi-protected? --Merbabu (talk) 14:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I had a look and ended up concurring - it's now semi-protected. Also removed the Criticism section (not fundamentally opposed to one, just this one was badly spelled and problematic) and trimmed some of the references which included links to blogs and activist publications. Hopefully the regular editors in that domain can sort out what should be there and what can be removed if need be. Orderinchaos 14:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Cheers. Can't say I know too much about the subject except that he seems to pop up on the 7.30 report/Lateline whenever there is a bombing or similar. Will keep my eye on it too. But I generally find dealing with anon, no-edit summary, reverters less than inspiring. :-)  --Merbabu (talk) 15:08, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Michael Atkinson
Is protection warranted? It's annoying reverting so often. Timeshift (talk) 09:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Hey
What is the email address that the image and disclaimer must be sent to? I can have a fair few imported. Watchover (talk) 04:35, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Kwinana
Haha, I missed that entirely! I'd guess it's some junior high school kid's idea of humour. :| Orderinchaos 04:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Did make me smile....a dreamtime legend of a tiger in WA of all places. Seems a long way to walk, even when there was a land bridge ? Peripitus (Talk) 04:52, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

LGAs maps
Hi Orderinchaos, I'm from it:wiki (so, first of all, sorry for my poor english). Great job with the images of the Perth LGAs, now there's just this one to finish the job :)) Apart from this, can I ask a question? This summer I've been in Western Australia and since the articles regarding the australian topics are very few in italian wiki, I've started to write something. Now I've seen that the Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale is counted as a Peel region LGA and as a Perth region LGA: is this correct? I know that there's no real boundary, but it's the only western australian LGA with two regions and it sounds a little strange to me. Thanks in advance, you can answer on my it:wiki page because I'm active mainly there. Fabius aka Tirinto 14:44, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Susan Manning (disambiguation)
Hello. I just wanted to thank you for your comments both on the deleted dab page and on the administrators' board. I was quite upset about the whole issue, and so was very pleased to see your words. Thanks, Boleyn3 (talk) 13:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No worries. The whole thing was quite bizarre, I must say. Keep up the good work. Orderinchaos 14:32, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The record shows you deleted Susan Manning (disambiguation), with a deletion log entry stating it was an "obviously unnecessary disambiguation page." I left a hangon tag on the article, and left a long note on Talk:Susan Manning (disambiguation).  I can't find any sign that you responded to my concerns.


 * I am a long time contributor to the wikipedia. I think I have a pretty firm grasp of those policies that affect my contributions most closely.  But I won't pretend to have a firm grasp of all the wikipedia's policies and guidelines.  You called the dab "obviously unnecessary".  Sorry, it wasn't obviously unnecessary to me -- which may only mean there is some policy I need to have politely drawn to my attention.  No one wants to go walking around, innocently repeating the same mistake, and wasting other people's time when those mistakes are eventually cleaned up.  If I am walking around, potentially innocently repeating the same mistake(s), the wikipedia would work best if someone explained that error.  Frankly, it has always seemed to me that one of the responsibilities an administrator undertakes when they agree to act as an administrator is to make an attempt to make sure those affected by their rulings understand those rulings.


 * I saw your note where you characterized me as "wikilawyering", and where you called my concerns "bizarre". We are all human, and thus are likely to inadvertently lapse into intemperate language at some point.  However, could you please make an effort to use less inflammatory langauge when you talk about my contributions in future?


 * Finally, you wrote: "[multiple wiki-ids] used to abuse policy, ... would be an entirely different matter." For the record I do not believe, and didn't mean anyone to read into my comments, that I suspected the other contributor had set out to abuse policy.  What I remain concerned has happened is that a long term quality control volunteer, who is doing a task that other quality control volunteers consider important, has innocently slipped into a pattern of editing that lapses from what is best for the project over-all.  We are all supposed to be accountable for what we do here, and what we say.  With circumscribed exceptions at the highest level, our decision-making is supposed to be made in an open and transparent manner.  I remain concerned that the other contributor's use of multiple userids is not open and transparent, but rather is opaque and obfuscates their accountability.  Geo Swan (talk) 21:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Firstly, I did respond, and deliberately left the talk page undeleted, but someone else came in an hour behind me and deleted it. I had written on the talk page, "The above is an abuse of the hangon tag to personally attack another editor - the grounds for deletion were perfectly reasonable, as it only has one blue-linked entry." Secondly, to the grounds for deletion, read db-disambig. Specifically, "disambiguates two or fewer Wikipedia topics and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)". This page disambiguated two entries, only one of which was blue-linked. As such it was a page without reason to exist, and indeed, one which MOS appears to advise against. And thirdly, you've expended a great deal of effort opposing a speedy deletion, exhibiting bad faith towards another editor (although I note you have now accepted there is no intent to do harm in your comments above), extending to attacks upon character... why is this subject so important to you? The pages upon pages you have written at AN/I, at the disambiguation page's talk page and now at mine do not further the encyclopaedia's interests. In fact, it seems singularly aimed at halting the work of a productive maintenance volunteer. Hectoring and bullying are typically behaviours we block newer contributors for. Orderinchaos 03:24, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I am as entitled to the assumption of good faith as you or Boleyn. I think the record shows I extended this assumption to the two of you.


 * The principle is, I believe, to comment on the issues -- not the personalities. You asked me what I thought I was doing.  But that question follows a flat-out accusation of bad faith.  It might seem to you that my aim was to "...halt the work of a productive maintenance volunteer..."  It wasn't.  Why the heck would you suspect that?


 * Clearly other quality control volunteers think her disambiguation work is important. And I am sure it would be possible for her to go right on working on this task, just as effectively, in a way that was open, transparent, and didn't obfuscate her multiple roles.  Geo Swan (talk) 18:51, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Re: Kalgoorlie-Boulder vs Dundas
Yikes! OK, sorry about that. I obviously didn't comprehend the part of Shire of Dundas article that says "generally along the Eyre Highway". Oh well, you learn something every day. So the city of KB covers a long narrow strip east of Kalgoorlie, right? I was inspired to edit these Nullarbor Plain articles after finding out that the Red Rocks Point weather station is back online, after an absence of nearly four years! Graham 87 09:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Now that is what I call good news - thanks for that graham! More power to any improvement of any of the nullarbor arts I say! SatuSuro 10:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Western Australian daylight savings referendum, 2009

 * Nice job. –Moondyne 02:02, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree SatuSuro 04:52, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks guys :) Orderinchaos 08:39, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I'm wrong. You guys had daylight savings last summer but not this one?  Aaroncrick  ( talk )  Review me! 04:54, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct. Last summer was the 3rd year of the 3 year trial.  From March 09 we switched back to GMT+8, and will remain that way for a long, long time, I suspect. –Moondyne 07:09, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I'm personally glad of that fact, especially the last couple of days. Orderinchaos 08:39, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Need it down here!  Aaroncrick  ( talk )  Review me! 09:15, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's good in southern latitudes. Tasmania was actually the first state to get it. Orderinchaos 10:11, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

missing numbers
Western_Australian_prohibition_referendum,_1925 - the numbers are not showing in the table SatuSuro 04:52, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct - the figures aren't available online so it's on my (long) list of things to do to fill it out. I actually want to get the daylight savings and secession ones sorted first though. Orderinchaos 08:43, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

' 'Horrors - dont tell the australian noticeboard about this lot - we'll never be free of the curse [gmailed a link] maybe its a disease or something'' : ( SatuSuro 14:24, 15 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Why not? ;) Someone maybe willing to do a investigation into finding the figures needed.


 * No doubt Orderinchaos' list is about as long as my list! If anyone knows when the Dobney/Ashmont Ave (was once part of the Sturt Highway) was by-passed by the Edward St West it would be a huge help!


 * I've spend huge amount of hours reading newspapers (including the catalogue), books and maps (earliest I've found is 1920 which isn't much help). Bloody drive me in sane when you go on a wild goose chase but come home empty handed (I want to add some history on the Sturt Highway as ATM there is none!). Bidgee (talk) 14:35, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I know the feeling :P My current (non-exclusive) list of projects is:
 * Fixing all remaining current and non-current Queensland LGAs
 * Putting population tables and fixing info in the WA LGA articles I created ages ago
 * Researching a history of NSW LGAs, especially in Greater Sydney, Hunter and the North Coast
 * History of daylight saving in WA and corresponding improvement of the 4 referendum articles
 * Elections through time in WA
 * Government and politics articles for WA
 * Elections through time in QLD and writing ministry lists for that state
 * Ministry lists for NSW
 * History of local government in Queensland (have sources but haven't had time)
 * History of the National Party in WA (which I want to get to GA/FA)
 * Bios of Queensland ministers from 1929
 * Improving the premiers' and opposition leaders' articles for WA, including finishing Colin Jamieson's
 * Orderinchaos 01:53, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

separate subject
(talk page item shoiuld have been under separate heading - apologies to bidgee and orderinchaos) 'Horrors - dont tell the australian noticeboard about this lot - we'll never be free of the curse [gmailed a link] maybe its a disease or something' - regarding a totally different topic and subject - space note to self - always keep talk items separate SatuSuro 00:19, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

very different subject
what a relief to see you editing at reasonable hours :) - at times i worry you might have hit my oldest teenagers lifestyle (sleep all day and computer all night ) SatuSuro 00:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * My hours have finally gotten back to normal as of this morning (even though I woke up twice during the night). Orderinchaos 00:47, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah the bloody graveyard hounds (heheh) are let off at daybreak and bay down the valley to give me extra hours on the computer :) SatuSuro 00:54, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

You and your Perth suburbs
How do you get so much info? Northern Tas suburbs are mostly one liners with the next to no info available, not sure about book but still... probably expanded some. However, OR wasn't as big a problem back then.  Aaroncrick  ( talk )  Review me! 00:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

There are many local history books in lonnie (more than there are for same size areas in wa) - they are not in print though - local libraries have huge amounts of stuff SatuSuro 00:54, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't mean for you to go into so much trouble. Very insightful nonetheless.  Aaroncrick  ( talk )  Review me! 01:42, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No worries, I'm happy to help anyone interested in developing this stuff :) As it is, I'm waiting for a bus which goes in about 10 mins, so I had some time to kill :) Orderinchaos 01:46, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Good stuff - more helpful than I'd be prepared to be! Thanks a load.  Aaroncrick  ( talk )  Review me! 01:48, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably just Launceston. Thought it might have been you because of the politics section. That shopping centre in Kings is the biggest in Launnie, lol!  Aaroncrick  ( talk )  Review me! 01:51, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Before that, I need to redesign the politics template to be tidier and slicker. The old one (which I also designed) is great in that it templates the stuff, but it now has a dated look. Orderinchaos 01:56, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks  Aaroncrick  ( talk )  Review me! 11:21, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No worries. Just have to figure out a way to do it now... my "short" template looks very clinical and artificial. Orderinchaos 11:26, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

You know, I was surprised Perth wasn't a GA or FA with: You, Moondyne, Hesp, SatuSuro and Gnangarra all from there (I think). Poor old Hobart just had Noodles fantastic pictures (some of which I've stole) and unsourced IP additions.  Aaroncrick  ( talk )  Review me! 09:03, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It actually was a GA at one point but got delisted - none of us (you're right about the list btw) have worked extensively on it I think. We have a habit of working on everyone else's articles :P I personally think the article's a bit of a mess but I don't know where to start on it. Orderinchaos 09:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Most capitals are delisted GAs and Canberra could loose its FA status soon if taken to FAR. Gawd, Tasmanian arts are written badly - some of which I expanded ... embarrassing!  Aaroncrick  ( talk )   09:26, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

CPRS
Nah, if you really want to reduce carbon emissions, an ETS isn't the way to go. Think of it, whatever you set the cap at, the government is basically encouraging everyone to emit carbon up to that cap. For example, if you introduce technology at your power plant that reduces your carbon emissions by 50%, you now have a whole bunch of extra carbon credits you no longer need. Rudd wants you to sell them. Which means, that someone else will now increase their CO2 emissions by the amount of emissions you saved!

Quite apart from that, a cap-and-trade system doesn't really cap emissions. For example, who supplies the carbon credits if there is a really big bushfire? Or an industrial accident? What about all the financial whizkids that short-sell carbon credits and then go broke?

Even within the CO2-is-the-cause-of-all-our-environmental-problems paradigm, it is far better to introduce a straightforward CO2 tax than an ETS.

My own view is that if anything is going to save the environment, it is going to be education and technology, not some over-clever taxation scheme. The ETS has been dreamt up by useless rent-seekers who think they can save the world with excel spreadsheets and mouse clicks, rather than putting their brain power to inventing technology to make people's lives better.

I grew up during the Cold War and the ever-present risk of nuclear armageddon... worrying about too many cow farts seems pretty small beer to me... far better to worry about curbing overpopulation and how we are going to feed everyone. --Surturz (talk) 02:55, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Queensland Party
I don't know anything about them off the top of my head. I had a look, and found this singularly unhelpful link, but then struck gold with this. Looks like Arnold Wienholt might get a little expanded as well! Frickeg (talk) 23:57, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
-- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 00:58, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Sleep
Sir, It has come to our attentin you edit patterns reflect a certain, um, lack of the afforementioned - it is in our own experience that lack of the particular item can bring on various patterns that might make your capacity to be a long distance truck driver somewhat more possible than editing political history tables ....SatuSuro 02:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Mystery...
Hello there - what do you make of this? --Merbabu (talk) 12:41, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "left the impression that, at the very least," = OR pretty much. Orderinchaos 20:55, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Opinion at Chris Evans (Australian politician)?
Surturz appears to be up to his old tricks... Timeshift (talk) 11:01, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If by "old tricks" you mean adding WP:V content, then yes. Why you guys are against the RG copypasta is beyond me. OIC actually deleted a paragraph that was there before I copy-pasted. --Surturz (talk) 12:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed - my point probably wasn't the same as Timeshift's. I just thought none of it had anything to do with Mr Evans (I use the term deliberately, as in referring to a particular man) and more to do with general government policy at the time which he happened to have the transient job of enforcing. I would not be against such a section (with the references provided) being added in the right location (i.e. an article about the government's policy or about the immigration role therein). Orderinchaos 12:14, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought
 * "In May 2008, the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre said the Department of Immigration and Citizenship was rejecting asylum seeker applications at a higher rate than under the previous government, saying 41 of 42 applications had been rejected. Evans claimed a denial rate of 77 percent, based on his acknowledgment that of a caseload of 730 appeals, he has intervened in 170. "
 * at least, was highly relevant to Chris Evans. Oh well, now the article implies he has done absolutely nothing in office, I guess that's not too far from the truth. --Surturz (talk) 12:23, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The bile and hatred is oozing out of Surturz for all to see. Timeshift (talk) 21:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * In general, though, Surturz has a point - ministers don't tend to do very much that isn't part of the job description. He has executed his job somewhat differently to his predecessor, but that reflects the fact he's part of a Labor government and the Labor party have a different policy to the Liberal party on this issue (although it's similar in some respects). The interesting thing though re that May 2008 quote is that several hundred have been accepted since - one can say anything on a small sample size. Orderinchaos 22:31, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

South Australian towns
Um, I was working on expanding some of these articles, slowly - see Port Gawler, South Australia, Price, South Australia and Yeelanna, South Australia (please restore this article). You may want to delete Category:Suburbs of Whyalla given that it is now (virtually) empty.

I understand and sympathise with your actions (as you can tell from my post on AWNB) but don't you think you may have left a message on AWNB given there were plans there to expand these stubs? -- Mattinbgn\talk 01:28, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * My deletions weren't random - I was picking out the ones that were clearly non-notable. If you look at the log, you can see there's a certain pattern to my investigations - I've got a list with "Known Notables", "Possible Notables", "Non-notables" (which keeps getting cleared by deleting them once it hits about 3 or 4) and "Unknowns". Port Gawler and Price, btw, were on the "Known Notables" list. Orderinchaos 01:30, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said, I understand what you have done and why you have done it but a quick message to Canley and I on AWNB may have been wise to save us from working on articles that you were planning on deleting. I spent a moderate amount of time sorting out the Category:Whyalla to encompass correct categorisation of the suburbs of Whyalla (They were originally in Cat:Towns in South Aust.). I may have been able to save that work. Anyway, what is done is done.


 * Also, having deleted Corny Point, South Australia, you may need to take a look at this and decide how it is best dealt with. Sorry if I am coming across a little confrontational, perhaps I need more sleep. :-) All the best for Christmas and the New Year. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 01:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, no worries. Didn't know anyone was working on it when I started. Anyway, I've deleted all the non-notables now, and probably a couple of others which can be restored if need be. I'll put my "doubtful" list up and people can have a look and decide accordingly. Orderinchaos 01:49, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Also, not sure if you are aware or not but I am no longer an administrator so I may ask you to restore some of these articles if I think I can expand them. One last thing, as a Western Australian, your 2c may be useful at Talk:Father Brian Morrison. Again, I understand the arguments put forward by your fellow WAians but I cannot agree. -- Mattinbgn\talk 02:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, didn't know you'd given up the tools :| I'll have a look at the BM article in a sec - he's a household name over here. (edit: Ah, it's a naming issue. Difficult one - he is known as "Father Brian" more than anything else, but by Wikipedia bio standards he'd be Brian Morrison (____).) Orderinchaos 11:05, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Australian Towns
Sorry about creating any that were not notable i really did mean well i will be sure that id I create more I will make sure to find more sources. I admit i was rushing through creating a lot without properly looking at the reference. I just have one request is that if you delete anymore just to notify me because it was a surprise going through my list and seeing a lot of red links. I have also left this message on the Australian Wikipedians' notice board. Cheers.  Kyle  1278  04:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Socks
Thanks for looking into this. Re this, I guess this was the right thing to do. If not, please revert me. I'm sure it was written some where, that edits of blocked users/socks can be removed. regards --Merbabu (talk) 22:57, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

"Joe Hockey"
User:Joe Hockey. huh? --Merbabu (talk) 02:46, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Jimmy Nail
Hello. I just wanted to let you know you can unprotect Jimmy Nail if you want to. I didn't know about the e-mail to the legal department. All I saw was someone removing properly referenced material from an article. After seeing your edit summary I'll assume you have more information on this matter than I do and will accept the deletions as being proper. The article no longer needs to be protected. Thank you, and happy editing! 152.16.16.75 (talk) 00:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Thankes for remind
Thanks for remind, so according the WP:LIVING other editors alreadly remove the information--Mys 721tx (talk) 18:41, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Steven John Butt
Please explain why the Wikipedia: Deletion policy (WP:DEL) was not followed, deleting this page on the same day it was listed in Articles for Deletion. "The discussion lasts at least seven full days." Also, the protection of the page from recreation after improvement seems highly excessive. Please explain this as well. Crickmanzz (talk) 21:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your prompt response. I prefer not to split hairs about differences between "policies" ("The discussion lasts at least seven full days") and "requirements" or who is Wikilawyering whom, but yours and another admin's comments require rebuttal.  "Defamation" (with very rare, nation-specific exception) requires the material be untrue. The subject has led a complex, interesting (some might say enviable), and deliberately public life, but the facts were referenced with half page Associated Press articles published in numerous U.S. newspapers, national primetime CBS news show coverage, frontpage coverage in newsweeklies and magazines on two continents, and extensively corroborated by the subject's own words.  Some of the details were perhaps unflattering, depending on one's perspective, but were not defamatory. Neither was there any "contention."  No one has disputed (except perhaps the vandal Straightshooter777) the news coverage accounts, or what the subject said about himself, the latter was used to add detail (obviously, I tend to be wordy) to the news coverage (I regret that this did not produce the requisite "encyclopedic tone.") It was my understanding that the Internet Archive references documenting the subject's views, activities and personal biographical history WP:SELFPUB fell within WP:BLP guidelines. Nevertheless, I would appreciate the opportunity to repair (predominately by significant truncation) the article, including the constructive suggestions given, so as to satisfy everyone's interpretation of WP:BLP. If given this opportunity, I will immediately notify you at this talk page for your inspection. Thank you for your time in reading this.Crickmanzz (talk) 17:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)