User talk:Originalmess/Archive 1

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Hello, Originalmess, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions, especially your edits to Alpha Gamma Delta. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:


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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or, and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome!  Grey joy talk 09:07, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Welcome!
Hi, I saw your changes to the Alpha Gamma Delta and Pi Beta Phi and they look good. You may want to stop by WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities (which has shortcuts of WP:FRAT and WP:SOROR) and say hello on the talk page. You may also want to add userboxes for any GLOs that you belong to from Userboxes/Education and/or Userboxes/Education/Collegiate sororities and fraternities.

I've been on wikipedia for about a decade and tend to focus on GLOs, especially adding them from Baird's Manual. I'm a brother of Alpha Phi Omega, the national service fraternity.Naraht (talk) 15:51, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Just curious, re you a sister of AGD or PBPhi?Naraht (talk) 15:47, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * You may want to put  which shows
 * on your user page. Your edits on the AGD page look fine, I'll go back and take a look when I have the chance. I've edited the Alpha Phi Omega and the related pages *many* times, but someone who isn't a member is certainly able to check me. As for Article quality, if you look at WP:FRAT, there is a chart of Article Quality, The entries that are FA (Featured Articles) are Alpha Kappa Alpha and Kappa Kappa Psi which means they've met the top standard, but almost all GLO articles would need a *lot* of work to get there. You can respond here rather than on my page if you want and if you include at the beginning (and sign with the 4 tildes) it will notify me. (heading out to lunch though)Naraht (talk) 17:26, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh I've been looking at those as references, but I noticed they're all organized loosely into a history-programs-membership-symbols structure and I was wondering if that was the standard structure, not standard quality.  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 18:29, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure there is a *standard*, you might want to ask on the talk page for the Project and see what response you get. As for quality, references from secondary sources are also good. One entry that concerns me is the "20 out of 26 for AI" reference which is on Tumbler. Tumbler in general is *not* good for references. If you can find something better...Naraht (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * haha oh I know, but I think the only other option might be forum posts on greekchat or, alternatively, tallying and citing the page where each organization that offers the option talks about it. I haven't been able to find anything more general, as it is an option that's much less common. I'll look again later tonight! Anyway, I just pushed some more changes, do you think it's ready for another quality review?  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 19:45, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Maybe a page at the NPC website??? As sort of an off the cuff quality review, I'd suggest two things. First, normally at least each paragraph should have a reference, especially if it is a section by itself. Secondly, after that, I'd suggest asking User:Mean as custard, he marked the article with, so he might have more concrete suggestions. We'll figure out where to go from there after that.Naraht (talk) 19:54, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Maybe a page at the NPC website??? As sort of an off the cuff quality review, I'd suggest two things. First, normally at least each paragraph should have a reference, especially if it is a section by itself. Secondly, after that, I'd suggest asking User:Mean as custard, he marked the article with, so he might have more concrete suggestions. We'll figure out where to go from there after that.Naraht (talk) 19:54, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Welcome to The Wikipedia Adventure!

 * Hi Originalmess! We're so happy you wanted to play to learn, as a friendly and fun way to get into our community and mission.  I think these links might be helpful to you as you get started.
 * The Wikipedia Adventure Start Page
 * The Wikipedia Adventure Lounge
 * The Teahouse new editor help space
 * Wikipedia Help pages

-- 03:48, Saturday, June 2, 2018 (UTC)

Plagarizing from yourself.
Definitely worthwhile... :)

With the changes to Sigma Sigma Sigma and Alpha Sigma Alpha. You may want to take a crack at Association of Education Sororities, that could definitely use some work. (grab from National_Panhellenic_Conference as needed) Naraht (talk)


 * ah yeah, that article's really something. sources been like that since 2009... Visual editor's really helped a lot of people make better edits, I assume. might try to do that at some point. Thanks!  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 04:53, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I actually find the Visual Editor annoying, but then I've been editing since well before the Visual Editor was even close to an idea. But whoever it helps is a step forward, so I'm ok with it being used.Naraht (talk) 11:45, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Another challenge

 * Iota Alpha Pi, the only member of the NPC to disband rather than merge.Naraht (talk) 16:01, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines
That page is a *mess*, I'd recommend spending time elsewhere rather than getting sucked into the mess. My honest guess is that less than one third of the groups would meet even a mild definition of secondary sources for their information. And the entire Greek Letter Organization setup in the Philippines is considerably less ordered than the USA. Think of if all the GLOs in the Philippines were like the historically black Fraternities and Sororities but with no NPHC and with a good number of groups being non collegiately based.Naraht (talk) 16:12, 11 June 2018 (UTC)


 * yeah sorry I don't think I'm gonna go for any more sorority/fraternity articles in general. I'm a bit burnt out after restructuring all of the NPC articles and don't really want to take on a challenge I'm not really interested in, especially when I can't even finish the NPC article even knowing of resources...
 * But anyway, yeah thanks for the warning but don't worry haha (as per reason just stated). That seems like an accurate description. I'm surprised that 1) that page didn't get deleted for notability (and I'm not a deletionist at all... but I could make up my own "frat./sor." and put it on the page, and it'd look about as legitimate as half of their orgs that just jack images from random places and cite multiple founding dates) and that 2) any of these (or Confraternities in Nigeria - seriously, what?!) are even included in the wikiproject, since most of them are currently only tangentially related to college fraternities/sororities (undergraduate OR graduate) and half are involved in serious, organized crime. Actually, would you mind me removing the latter article from the wikiproject? I'd also be interested in proposing to remove most of the Filipino orgs from the project.   originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 21:50, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I think you did a wonderful job! Go ahead and take a wikibreak...
 * In regards to the Philippines. I'm an alumnus of Alpha Phi Omega, which has a recognized Philippine Affiliate (our leadership meets with theirs more or less annually and they are talked about in our pledge manual) which is arguably among the 10 most well known of the Philippine Fraternities/Sororities and is fully notable and referencable. I'd say that the List includes about 20 or 30 that could be referenced for at least existence, including all of the ones that have articles. Category:Fraternities and sororities in the Philippines, and some of them really do believe they were founded at a US University or trace their history to a group with the same greek letters an american university that isn't even of the same gender! Referring to the Fraternity system in the Philippines is a really different animal. As for Nigeria, let me give that some thought.Naraht (talk) 12:16, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * That's what I meant by most, that one and Upsilon Sigma Phi for example are notable & seem to be mainly collegiate, and so should be included in the wikiproject. I'm not saying that some of them aren't legitimate. Several of the other service/professional orgs also seem notable enough and recruit almost solely at the undergraduate or graduate level. I do think it'd be a stronger move to merge most of the professional fraternity articles under something like "Professional fraternities in the Philippines", though. What do you think about that?
 * On the less-collegiate orgs - the female triskelion article describes "its objective of veering away from the elitist orientation of the sorority system," while one of their male counterpart's chapters states they're the beginning of the "Anti-Frat system". I'm sure they're influential at the college level, but they and several others recruit at the high school and community levels. Their names might include "fraternity"/"sorority", but if they're trying to be the opposite and now have a completely different purpose/structure from collegiate fraternities, why include them in the wikiproject on collegiate fraternities and sororities? As for the list, whatever lol I'm 100% taking your advice not to get involved.
 * On the "confraternities" - Circle K International started as a service fraternity, but it's not currently one. Just because Nigerian "confraternities" started as fraternal orgs doesn't mean they still are - initiation "rituals" of raping or fighting other students have a lot in common with gang initiations and exactly nothing in common with speaking a few words in a secret room like any college fraternity. (They also have nothing to do with actual confraternities.) The female chapters "have supplied spies for [allies] as well as acting as prostitution syndicates." They can call them sororities or fraternities if they want, but they're literally student gangs. All of the article's sources refer to them as "student cults" or "pseudo-fraternities" with copied traditions from or roots in the first actual fraternities. We don't include German Student Corps in WP:FRAT, and while they seem to be mainly a fencing/academic club, they're actually a college organization and maintain a relationship with TKE. It just doesn't seem like it's relevant.   originalmess   22:34, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Sort of merging things. I disagree with merging them, separate organizations, as long as they show notability, like that should no more be merged than AGD and TPhiA.
 * I think the comparison there is Delta Upsilon. As much as they are anti-secret and at least at their founding even more anti-fraternities, there is no question they belong in the Fraternity system.
 * And as far as I can tell, most of the Fraternities and Sororities in the Philippines that aren't tied to a professional field like Medicine or Law have what I call "Youth wings" (in a third world political party way). Alpha Phi Omega's are slightly different with Scouts Royale Brotherhood and *that* is getting complex within the organization, but referencing *that* is difficult.
 * As for Nigeria, ew, I'd suggest that you post on the Talk page for WP:FRAT, I'm sort of opposed, I'm curious as to what others might say, WP:FRAT, IMO isn't supposed to be US/Canada only, but where to draw the line, I'm not sure.
 * Wiktionary has multiple definitions of what a Confraternity is, some of which are much broader.Naraht (talk) 15:19, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Women in Red
Hi there, Originalmess. I'm glad to see you've just joined WiR. As a new editor, our Ten Simple Rules might inspire you to start writing women's biographies. If you run in to any difficulties or need any help, please let me know. Happy editing!--Ipigott (talk) 06:14, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

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Alpha Gamma Delta

 * Hi Originalmess, I removed a fair chunk of waffle and advert-like text and tidied up some other problems. I note that the article relies heavily on material published by the subject organisation; this is considered primary sources and should be used with care. I also note one reference to Simple English Wikipedia, which is never a reliable source. I've thus tagged the article and I don't think it complies with the B-Class criterion for sourcing, but I'll leave that for others to decide. Cheers,  Baffle gab1978  02:56, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi thanks so much!! Good catches. I'm replacing it with https://people.howstuffworks.com/sorority.htm - does this count as a reliable (and tertiary? i think?) source? Btw I'm modifying the links of the blog to a website that's published by a PhD/archivist who did their thesis on greek organizations and has contacts/access to resources most people don't - is that more reliable?
 * Also, can you point out which parts sound like an advertisement? I've been chopping that kind of text from all the sorority articles but apparently I need to cut harder! Thanks.  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 10:30, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply; much of the ad-like text is in the upper part of the article. I did remove a lot of it but I didn't want to gut the article so much as to remove the meaning; that goes somewhat beyond copy-editing. Terms like "philanthropic focus" and "philanthropic efforts" are frequently used to give it a positive spin, though I didn't change these because I may misinterpret their meaning. There's also a lack of balance; there's no critical coverage from media sources and little of the org's business interests, etc; it seems unusual that an organisation that old wouldn't have received some criticism from somewhere.
 * Regarding sourcing; your academic source sounds more reliable than the blog posting I looked at. Have a look at WP:Reliable sources and judge for yourself whether the source is suitable, or you can ask at Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Sources should be independent of the subject and its publisher should have a history of editorial integrity and fact-checking. Self-published sources (blogs, web pages, etc) don't generally count as reliable unless they're written by an acknowledged expert on the subject. Good luck with the article. Cheers,  Baffle gab1978  19:18, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

PR editing
With regard to this, the "media mentions" paragraph is classic PR writing. See WP:Identifying PR. This is perfectly appropriate for somebody's, or some company's website, where they promote themselves, but this is not encyclopedic content. Please do not add content like that to Wikipedia. It is not what we do here.

It also was not even true. The PBS piece doesn't even mention her name and the other three piece profile the program, with some discussion of her.

Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:25, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks so much for the information! I've been editing for less than two months, so it's great to get help on what constitutes as encyclopedic or not. There's so many essays - I've read a lot of them in the past 59 days, but it's hard to find things of which I'm not even aware of. Thanks for also adding the part about her current employment back. Cheers,  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 18:30, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks. Jytdog (talk) 19:05, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!
This made my day. Cheers,  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 22:38, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Eveline Crone
Hello! Your submission of Eveline Crone at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 12:22, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

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Translating articles...
Thanx for translating Alceste Cœuriot and others. Just as a note, I believed that preferred is to include the id of that particular revision of what is being translated *from* in the edit summary. Easiest way is to look at the history of that article being translated and then compare the last two and then click on the current version. So (presuming you translating *after* you added the image), it would be "Translated https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alceste_C%C5%93uriot&oldid=150602432 ". This is a minor preference, so definitely not worth going back and altering the ones that you've done already...Naraht (talk) 01:41, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Oh I do believe you're right! I'll leave revision links in my next edit summaries on those pages. Good catch, thanks!  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 04:05, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't do much translation myself. I'd say that over the last year that at least 75% of my edits fall into one of two categories: Greek Letter Organizations and Wikignome stuff (removing mainspace categories from user pages, etc.). By the time, I'm done 2021(?), I expect most of the contents of the most recent edition of Baird's and Going Greek: Jewish College Fraternities in the United States, 1895-1945 (https://books.google.com/books?id=1u0sPzMEwOUC&source=gbs_navlinks_s ) to be on Wikipedia. :) (And I'd be shocked if *anything* on greek letter organizations exists on something other on en that doesn't also exist on en.)Naraht (talk) 15:10, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Changes to Sororities.
Two comments.
 * It generally doesn't save anything to remove the empty fields, I don't know of policy, but changes which don't actually cause a change to the viewed output or other functionality are discouraged.
 * If you are going to remove Mission/Vision everywhere, it would be better to simply propose that the fields be dropped from the template instead.Naraht (talk) 18:41, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know. Some of the fields I deleted were possibly confusing to new editors/editors unfamiliar with the template (members vs. lifetime, free spaces with no label, emphasis/maxim which many sororities don't have). Bullet #2 is why I deleted the mission/vision statements, since a lot of them do fall under PR text/general text that doesn't contribute any information except for puffery. I don't know how mission statements work for non-NPC organizations and will refrain from proposing changes that could remove possibly useful information for other orgs.  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 19:01, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Catherine-Nicole Lemaure
Hi. I reviewed your DYK nomination a while ago. It is really good. I suggested an alternative hook. Would you care to comment on it so we can get it on the main page? Gog the Mild (talk) 23:04, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Kelly M. Quintanilla
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * thanks so much!! (edit: for posterior reference, did a lot to wikify the article and fill in details. I learned a lot from looking their edits. :D)   originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 23:12, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Eveline Crone
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Catherine-Nicole Lemaure
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Precious
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:54, 20 August 2018 (UTC)


 * thanks so much!! you made my day :)  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 15:00, 20 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Intentionally so ;) - I remember the feeling, some day in August 2010. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:06, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/2018 Motocross des Nations
Your right, WP:BEFORE does exist. I didn't properly do research before I nominated, simply, I didn't know WP:BEFORE actually existed, before it's been pointed out recently. I know, scary that I haven't heard of it, but I will keep it in mind for next time, and I apologize for the glaring mistake I made. I've withdrawn the AFD. -- Amanda  (aka DQ) 18:41, 25 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the clarification! I did notice you do most of your work in other areas so it's not too scary you haven't heard of it, I'm also new to the process myself so I wanted to be sure too. Cheers,  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 01:15, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Carol Rasco
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Copying licensed material requires attribution
In the future, please add attribution when copying from public domain sources: simply add the template after your citation. I have done so for Glencoe, New Mexico. Please do this in the future so that our readers will be aware that you copied the prose rather than wrote it yourself. Thanks, — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 19:53, 19 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I actually modified most of the prose from another wikipedia article - is there something I should tag it with for that? The website doesn't have prose I can find, just the data.  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 22:14, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually the edit was flagged by a bot, because it's a lot like the original source (the US Census website). Copying within Wikipedia has its requirements as well - you can learn more at WP:Copying within Wikipedia. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 00:03, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Hm well I'll have to search around the website some more. Thanks!  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 03:17, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Copy edit of He Like That
FYI, completed your copy edit of He Like That. You can view the article's history and check the diffs if you want to see the specific changes. Here are a few notes: To pass GAN, articles only have to comply to the Manual of Style for punctuation, grammar, layout and lead, but FYI here are a couple additional MOS fixes: I hope that this is of some help. The expectations for GA and FA copy edits are a bit high, so feel free to work on lower-class copy edits while you figure things out and build your confidence. There are a lot of instructional help files at WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/How to. And feel free to ask me if you have any questions. Happy editing! P.S.: the GOCE should have a one-week copy editing blitz in mid-October if you're interested. – Reidgreg (talk) 17:35, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
 * In the lead, Aoba47 moved some of the dates up for context. (It's generally good to have a date in the first or second sentence of a release or event.) Aoba47 also added to the lead information which he felt was needed to summarize the article. After copy editing the article thoroughly, it's not a bad idea to check the content in the lead and make sure it's a good summary and covers all the information which is crucial to the topic. For GANs, the lead is expected to comply with Manual of Style/Lead section which has further advice.
 * Aoba47 rephrased some additional sections for flow. Basically the same sort of thing you were doing, but he went a little further with it, taking it as a whole and applying Summary style for encyclopedic tone.
 * I'll point out one place where I made a change: The video contains neon lights, an intensive illumination and balance of colors (these characteristics also can be found in the video for "Down" which the group used as a base to recreate the same colorful aesthetic in the video).  Parenthesis can sometimes indicate fragmented thought, and it is often worth considering a rephrase.  Here, I felt that it there were also redundancies and that it wasn't good enough for GAN.  I reworded it as:  The video contains neon lights, an intensive illumination and balance of colors, which was an aesthetic recreated from the video for "Down".  I just felt the rephrase was a little more succinct.  Generally speaking, it's better if you can summarize something in fewer words and with less-complicated sentence structure.
 * '90s → 1990s MOS:DECADE This is for clarity; years are almost always given with full digits.
 * in the video for "Down." The period goes outside the quotes MOS:LQ. This is especially important for titles: punctuation goes outside the quotes unless it is part of the title as with single "Make Me...".
 * I shortened a picture caption, to make it a tighter summary of a similar statement in the prose. At the GA level images should also have alt text (for the visually impaired) though this is not the copy editor's job.


 * Hi! I'll definitely look at the diffs and take your advice on tackling less intimidating articles first - I definitely am not yet comfortable with rephrasing other people's writing, so less scrutinized articles seem like a good first step. Thanks so much for the detailed advice. This was so helpful!! Cheers,  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 02:42, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Get ready for November with Women in Red!
--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:40, 14 October 2018 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Pi Beta Phi
In Pi Beta Phi, you changed the motto to be equal to Pi Beta Phi, did you mean to do this?Naraht (talk) 11:12, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * @Naraht I know it sounds strange, but it's what the Pi Phi website lists it as so I figured it might as well be included. Feel free to remove it if it's confusing/doesn't fit!  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 11:27, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Everything that I can find describes it as the first greek motto which was used by IC Sorosis which became the group's name. I don't see anything that uses it in the present tense.Naraht (talk) 16:46, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * https://www.pibetaphi.org/pibetaphi/About_Us/History/History_of_Pi_Beta_Phi/ it’s listed at the bottom with the colors and it’s also in some new member quiz flashcards (all public info as that’s pre-initiation) as well. All I can find is that they made their motto their name and never really changed it.  originalmess  how u doin that busta rhyme? 22:17, 26 November 2018 (UTC)