User talk:Otakrem

Neutral point of view

 * I feel there is a problem Sockpuppet on some accounts that I think they're the same person if I'm not mistaken
 * I did not understand why it continues to cancel my edit
 * the fact that you have added the anecdote that Haile Selassie Gugsa collaborated with Italians is not relevant to be said on the page that talks about the people of Tigray
 * however, it was accepted and who exists on wikipedia the participation of multiple users she has to put agree with others
 * here there is a problem of Neutral point of view
 * It is not the place of Wikipedia policy
 * and stop of this Edit warring--tell me Sennaitgebremariam (talk) 00:29, 28 June 2016 (UTC)


 * she is playing, and from 10 days that goes this story--tell me Sennaitgebremariam (talk) 07:36, 28 June 2016 (UTC)


 * what is your problem?
 * Wikipedia is not the place to talk about politics--tell me Sennaitgebremariam (talk) 08:30, 28 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Please stop Threatening me.You are VIOLATING Wikipedia Discussion Guidelines by telling me "Wikipedia is not the place to talk about politics". I am Free to TALK ABOUT ANYTHING I WANT! I have the RIGHT TO DISCUSS AND EDIT without HARASSMENT OR THREATS BY YOU!!!!!!!Otakrem (talk) 08:32, 28 June 2016 (UTC)


 * so sorry if you feel threatened by me it was not my intention but I was wondering why continues to delete my edit but because it feels threatened by me?
 * I just added an anecdote "furious Tigrean patriots in Mek'ele promptly set fire to his house in the city" to make more balanced perspective Neutral point of view
 * I removed "Italian created" for the same reason --tell me Sennaitgebremariam (talk) 13:05, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
 * You are Edit warring.Otakrem (talk) 01:04, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi, how are you
 * why now you have edited this page Tigrayan--tell me Sennaitgebremariam (talk) 21:56, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * your edit is bad english structure and offtopic. It doesn't make sense or read well.Otakrem (talk) 20:06, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

About Death Toll
There is a discussion on talkpage of Menelik's biography here regarding the death toll. Previously you supported and find it important for it's inclusion and now you are invited to list your reasons for the inclusion and to provide your opposition on the listed reasons for not including the death toll estimate. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:03, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

EthiopianHabesha I have responded to the section.Otakrem (talk) 20:39, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem, under Menelik talk page the reference are listed in a way that is not seen in other articles talk pages so may be you may use just [  ] instead of  for referring sources. Also when clicking the source's link it just takes you to the whole reference down there but not to the specific source you want it to go and this makes it hard to know which source you used for which statement — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 13:56, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Ethiopian-Eritrean
Greetings Otakrem! As per the note in the Eritrea coding that the material should be brief, I have summarized it and transferred the details to the parent. Please also see WP:WPC for what are the standards. Kind Regards-- Soupforone (talk) 02:53, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Habesha
Thanks for the Habesha etymological insight. Please see the weblink there for the Abyssinian cognate in English. Cheers--Soupforone (talk) 02:53, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

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Menelik Article
If it is fair to include an estimate of 'millions' (depopulation) made by only one persons ambiguous comment then Bermudes should be in with very similar wordings used under Menelik to make Wikipedia a place for people to learn our past history but not for provocation and to create resentment between people and destabilise Horn of Africa (a region where there is high illiteracy). This kind of resentment was the reason that lead to Rwanda genocide in 1994. The way the death estimate put is in a biased way and not put like wikipedia articles of both world wars i.e. not in a way "X number from Menelik side died while Y number from the other side". For these reasons I am adding a paragraph below the paragraph that begins "During the conquest of the southern territories.........". The paragraph is required to show how wars in the region are carried out for compare and contrast like WW1 was mentioned several times in World War II article and like the paragraph that begins with "Land warfare changed from the static front lines of World War I........". It is also required to show why those continuous warfares were carried out by quoting Donald Levine. Adding the following:

Wars have been devastating in the region for many centuries with the last most devastating war fought before the 19th century one being the one fought in 16th century. Warfare system between these two major wars has not much changed and in 16th century the Portuguese Bermudes documented depopulation and that an army led by several successive Aba Gedas carried out atrocities against civilians and combatants including torture, mass killings and large scale slavery during their conquest of territories located north of Genale river (Bali, Amhara, Gafat, Damot). According to Donald, the reasons for warfare in the region is to acquire cattle, slaves, to gain territories or control over trade routes and to carry out ritual requirements or secure trophies to prove masculinity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EthiopianHabesha (talk • contribs) 22:46, 15 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Like I told you someone will eventually delete it because it is a False Balance, bloats the Article and does not provide an NPOV to Bulatovich's, Vanderhyem, Donaldson Smith, De Salvac (All Primary Witnesses of Menelik's armies atrocities), they are cited by Secondary sources therefore Estimates of Millions perishing due or as a result of the Conquest is a valid Estimate. As soon as there is further time, an Article dedicated to Menelik's conquest of the Southern people including all the millions of people who perished will be documented on Wikipedia with all the sources avaliable and many more.Otakrem (talk) 04:42, 16 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Otakrem, If you open another separate article then I will be able to have more space for balancing and clarifying more stories based on mainly neutral sources. I will make sure every paragraph is balanced by taking advantage of NPOV policy and depending on the story used I will bring related topics by going back many years or centuries of that event or bring another contradicting story from another reliable source. Infact there are many stories written by pseudo historians which the society accepts without questioning and confirming them in the library but simply because it is repeated again and again based on communists ideology which suggest that false history can become true or true history can become false when told repeatedly again and again to the society. There are many stories written for creating resentment between people which needs to be balanced and by opening an article you are giving me more space for clarifying and balancing them. Most likely you will be adding stories widely known because they are useful for political and nationalism agenda and based on NPOV policy I would be adding in stories that were neglected and rarely known because they don’t benefit any political ideology. In the end readers will get both widely known and rarely known equally and will get more full balanced information when compared to other blogs who will censor stories that damages their agenda.
 * In Menelik's article it says 'Menelik's Army carried out atrocities.....' making Menelik responsible and also for 16th centuary someone has to take responsibility and for that I have added 'an army led by several successive Aba Gedas carried out atrocities........' and also mentioned some people killed with equivalent content used under Menelik. Note that I am adding this paragraph not because I want to add it but because of that unfair estimate of 'millions' you want to be included based on by just only one persons comment, an estimating methodology not used in any other parts of the world with similar claim. All death estimates are based on multiple high quality material and written documents and if there is any death estimate made by just one person comment give me at least one example. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 01:10, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * There are sources which says Menelik was personally involved in raids as well. More than one person has made death estimates. I listed the 8 sources that you refuse to acknowledge.Otakrem (talk) 05:30, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * There are also other reliable neutral sources saying Menelik prohibited/outlawed slavery and that he destroyed notorious slave markets and even punished slavers by amputation and that he issued a rule stating that slavers could be enslaved and I beleive people also need to hear this story and take the source which they think is more neutral. Also people need to know that before Menelik there is no warlord in the Horn of Africa who did not enslave his neighbouring clan, tribe, ethnic-group and other religion followers, if there is anyone you know let me know. This is how I would be balancing information. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:30, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Fine if the sources are reliable and explain the context of this, including him outlawing it but still it was practiced until after the overthrow of Haile Selassie. Then it would be a balance but if you only say "he outlawed slavery" but don't give further realities, then its not a balance but a misrepresentation of his reign as an emperor. He also owned slaves too that would need to be added. He also went on slave raids. Otakrem (talk) 05:28, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Someone already added number of slaves in Menelik article and I did add that story where he oulawed and distoryed slave markets and also added scholars comment where he said it was beyond Menelik's capacity to change an age old practice. Besides I don't think he wants to be very strict like Tewodros on his fellow warlords (Southern, western, eastern and northern) who used to be uncontrolled slavers who enslaved freely all their neighbors before the coming of Menelik. This past history is one reality that needs to be addressed and if you know there is one clan lord, out of the over 200 clan warlords in the Horn of Africa, who did not enslave his/her neighbors (there are also women lords like Workitu & Mestawit) let me know, after all I am here only for sharing knowledge. Once we accept the past realty there is also another reality we need to accept which is slavery continued even after Menelik but this time not in open slave markets where transaction is taxed but continued in discreet even these law with harsh punishment is proclaimed. And those lords who were promised no interference from central government like Aba Jifar continued this age old practice freely even upto 1930s and Menelik's law is not applied to them. Still today in 2016 our women/men are being cheated of luxury life in Arabia/South Africa/Italy and are transported in not that much different treatment than those 19th century slaves experienced but this time actually the people themselves pay upto 3,000 USD to the middlemen while others are promised free transport and when they reach there the story is different, this is also another reality we hear in the news everyday. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 12:32, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * To match it with what is stated under Menelik I am also adding the term 'conquest' in the above paragraph to make it equal with 'During the conquest of the southern territories......'. I have several sources, mainly neutral sources, telling the history of 16th century. My opinion was that not to mention an estimate made by only one persons comment and wait until an international standard research is provided. Stating unfair estimate made by an estimating methodology not done in any other parts of the civilized world invites another unfair statement that can be supported with multiple high quality sources. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 13:45, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

After a long discussion under Meneliks talk page we could not reach consensus as to remove 'millions' and replace extreme tone like 'Mass killings' (term used mainly for Communist regimes) and 'large scale slavery' with impartial tone like 'deaths related to wars' and 'absorbing captives and war of prisoners during battle', which is how majority neutral scholars (Europeans and others from outside HA) characterise Menelik's battle/expansion. If we go by some few extreme writers (mainly from the politicians and ethnic nationalist community) characterisation then that paragraph I proposed above stays, which is entirely written based on neutral European sources. By the way those ‘millions’ and extreme wordings were added by Stumink in the first place claiming they are important information. This is 2016 and people don’t need to have radio station to replicate what happened in Rwanda in 1994 to Ethiopia. Now we have various social medias to create resentment/hate between peoples. And for this reason people also need to know that Menelik did not transform that region from a peaceful place to a war zone as nationalist are claiming which would go against what neutral scholars characterise the region before Menelik as a place where all clans (including Oromo clans) do not respect their borders, harmed all their neighbouring clans, participated in raiding system to collect resources, committed war related killings and absorbed captives & war of prisoners at the time of battle, not also forgetting minority writers clearly & precisely claiming mass killings and claiming historical people/states disappearing as a result of it. Actually these is what the region looks like based on history books contrary to what nationalist/politicians are trying to draw a picture. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:12, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * EthiopianHabesha, that is your personal opinion. The consensus was reached by Stumink and myself. Your entire arguments are similar to Holocaust Denialism and American Slavery Denialism, Racism-Denialism. Your mention of "Neutral European" again is your own Personal opinion. The sources provided for the statement is heavily Backed by multiple sources. Your Fekadu Lemassa is a False Source/Sockpuppet as the person does not exist. Your attempt at discrediting Dr. Kumsa on the basis that he is Oromo is pure Ethnic/Racial bias on your part. Your argument is not equivalent to the sources I provided which were of a variety of people past and present.Otakrem (talk) 02:17, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem, ok then if you think it is important information then it will stay, but also accompanied with the above paragraph to inform readers how the region looks like before Menelik based on neutral & reliable source to counter the image given by the sources you provided (Kumsa, Bulcha & Gemeda). I went through these sources and they are even claiming it is the worst in the regions history, or even in Africa; furthermore, adding 'millions', 'Mass killings' and 'large scale slavery' in Meneliks biography equals claiming it is the worst. For these reasons we need to go back 100s, if possible thousands of years backward in the regions history as well as African history and let readers compare and contrast for themselves just like WW1 story is mentioned several times in WW2 wikipedia article. That being said, the other reason why I am adding the above paragraph is that the ideology of ethnic nationalist parties is not like western ethnic nationalism i.e. based on democracy, integration, capitalism & equality for minorities. Unlike the western one EPLF, TPLF & OLF all of them are ethnic nationalist based on Communism ideology (their top role models being Mao & Stalin whom killed 60 million people whom also justify these killings) which makes ethnic nationalism in the multi ethnic Horn region a dangerous one. These parties follow a segregation political system i.e. no person with Amhara/Wolaita/Konso/Surma/Gurage blood allowed to participate in secret OLF & TPLF key decision making, inspite of millions (in some areas in group numbering over 3 million) of them leaving in what they claim is their own ethnic territory. This kind of system is indeed an alien imported political system in the history of Horn of Africa or even among the over 1,500 indigenous African tribes/languages history in general. Aba Jifar made his army commander who has a blood of Janjaro tribe who leave next to Jima Oromo. Menelik infact gave the military leadership to only Oromos. These are just two examples how the political system of Horn of Africa looks like in the past. Anyhow, these are the reasons why I am adding the above paragraph, if there is any curiosity as to why I will include it and say it is also important information. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 11:30, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * EthiopianHabesha, again you are doing your own personal analysis.Otakrem (talk) 16:03, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem, we can do this, let's give the link of Bulatovich's source to administrators and they will give us their opinion as to weather it is appropriate for one to come up with a claim of 'millions' were murdered and 'mass killing' and 'large scale slavery' based on one sentence provided by Bulatovich? And also we may ask them to give us their opinion regarding secondary sources like Bulcha, Kumsa & Gelete claiming exceptional claim without presenting material evidences (photographs of mass grave) and most importantly without explaining why and how (that much number they claim) people were murdered (not doing their assignment to answer the very most important question an enlightened educated person asks). If you agree we can ask for their opinion. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 21:51, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * EthiopianHabesha I am not going to get involved in Original Research which is exactly what you are requesting. The sources meet Wikipedia guidelines therefore shall remain. Your 16th Century Bermudes will be deleted because it does Not meet Wikipedia guidelines. Otakrem (talk) 04:55, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem, if you think your Point of view can convince administrators, why would you be against to my proposal I made on 25 August? Why would you be against administrators opinion? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:23, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

EthiopianHabesha I do not understand why you are ignoring my comments which make it clear my reasons. What part of "I do not want to be involved in Original Research" do you choose to ignore? You have been warned about your Wikipedia talkpage and discussion guideline violations. You are doing it here as well. Your claim of having "adiminstrators opinion" on your side when no such thing happened is a violation of Wikipedia talk page guidelines. You are violating Wikipedia guidelines here.Otakrem (talk) 09:44, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem, first of all those warning messages are left in my talk page by you, not administrators. Secondely, I have no idea to why you left those messages. Note that I have the right to question on based on what violations you added them. Don't claim as if they are left by administrators and when you left those messages you supposed to be precesly saying "I have left those warning messages for your X & Y statement/behaviour which violates X & Y rule". Unless you posted them in the talkpage this way it will be considered as abusing the warning templates (which is not allowed). Finally, do not accuse me falsely (which is also against the rule of wikipedia) by saying "Your claim of having "adiminstrators opinion" on your side when no such thing happened is a violation of Wikipedia", this is obviously a serious false accusation. When did I say I have the side of Administrators opinion? Saying "anyone including administrators might be against you so let's ask their opinion when you agree with this proposal" is not saying "indeed I actually have "adiminstrators opinion" on my side". Instead of personal attacks by accusing editors falsely I think we should be concentrating on contents, citations and sources presented. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 13:04, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * EthiopianHabesha Editors are allowed to give warnings also.Otakrem (talk) 00:35, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * EthiopianHabesha you wrote "Otakrem, if you think your Point of view can convince administrators, why would you be against to my proposal I made on 25 August? Why would you be against administrators opinion? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:23, 26 August 2016 (UTC)". You wrote "Why would you be against administrators opinion?", What Administrator opinion are you referring to? Are you claiming to be an Administrator? If you are not an administrator but are speaking to me as if you are, then you have violated Wikipedia editing behaviour rules. I rightly so warned you per Wikipedia guidelines.Otakrem (talk) 00:40, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Notice of Dispute resolution noticeboard discussion
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Tigrinyas
Greetings! When you have the time, could you please have a look at Tigrinyas? Per the speculation template, the link-thrus which don't indicate that the individuals are of Tigrinya heritage should be removed. Kind Regards-- Soupforone (talk) 02:22, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Soupforone, this one is kinda difficult to determine. Most of the people listed in the Notable Tigrinya section have common Tigrinya names. Most Tigrinya people from my understanding have relations with other Eritrean ethnic groups also. Meaning, one parent could be Tigrinya and the other another Ethnic group but they identify as both and are recognized as both. Unless the person do not specify their ethnic origins, then it would not be farfetched to call them Tigrinya if they meet certain criterias ie "Tigrinya name", they come from certain parts of Eritrea (Highlands) and even if they come from the Lowlands, their Tigrinya name would give them away. Where it might become murky is if the person comes from a high mixture area where Tigre, Bilen, Saho, Tigrinya live and intermarry.  For now, there is no way to say none of these people are Tigrinya since they have Tigrinya names. Also, I doubt someone who is Tigrinya(Eritrean) will dwell on their ethnicity and even other Ethnic groups from Eritrea do not dwell in their ethnicities but if they are clearly Kunama, Nara, Saho, Afar, Hidareb(Beja) then they will let it be known if need be otherwise they will just say they are Eritrean as well.Otakrem (talk) 03:30, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Nevermind; I think I know how to handle this. Cheers-- Soupforone (talk) 15:04, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Tigrayans
It has been reported Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard--tell me Sennaitgebremariam (talk) 17:06, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

September 2016
Otakrem, I am going with 100s of past editors consensus on this article Abysinian = Semitic people (previously titled after the widely used term 'Habesha' on Bantu, Nilotic & Mixed peoples). You changed the wording of the introductory paragraph to the article after it stayed for many years as follows "The peoples referred to as "Abyssinians" today can include anyone who accepts and assimilates to the "Habesha" identity but historically it included the Amhara, Tigray etc". Let's not disrupt because I can also bring 10s of sources which applied Abyssinian on Oromo & Agaw people historically and also include them under historically it included list which I have the right to do so by bringing reliable sources. Besides Samuel makes no distinction between Habesha & Abyssinian as Munroe & Yimene did. When I included the citation saying "These Semitic-speaking African populations became the Habesha" I took it as those semitic people adopted the name Habesha (based on many sources confirmation the term Habesha not being used by Axumite kings or to refer inhabitants in Axum proper) before this citation he said there is no genetic difference between them and to Sub Saharan Africans.

I probably might add the paragraph (which begins as historically....) which Soupforone & you opposed next to the first paragraph to make wikipedia readers fully informed on Habesha identity which also is an identity name of the African Indians, and an identity name for the black people residing in the Arabian peninsula by supporting it with reliable sources. In the Abyssinian article talk page I have includded a source telling about how Afro Asiatic speaking migrants (Oromo, Amhara, Kaffa) identify themselves as Habesha (adopted from Arabs use of the term for mixed people but not on European use for semitic people whom old scholars proposed as white migrants from Yemen came & built Axum for the indigeneous people when the standing Axum oblisk is one evidence of pharonic culture borrowed from the neighboring very black Nilotic Nubians). Why fluntly Greek speaking Axumite elites clearly know the defination of 'Ethiopia' applied on more specifically the very black nilotic Nubians and adopt it if they are culturally connected to white sabeans? why take the name of the black people and and not the white peoples nation name like 'Saba', Hadraamout' etc etc. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 11:35, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Amhara/Abyssinian Imposed Identity This is your ethnic group Amhara's Imposed Identity on several ethnic groups. After reading Identity Jilted and other books written by Tigrayans, Tigrinyas, Oromos etc, I can tell that you are of the Oppressive Amhara ethnic group who imposes a Amhara-"Abyssinian" ethnonoym on the ethnic groups that your people have conquered(colonized) and/or wish to.Otakrem (talk) 14:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem, Colonization definition: how many times do I have to define colonization to you? The colonised people of Zulu, Masai, Ashanti or the 13 colonies of USA has never became primeminister, warminister, ruler or ministers of the government of united Kingdom, their common colonizer. On the other hand Eritrean Aman Andom was ruler of Ethiopia, the Oromo Ras Gabana with his clan army was war minister & the Oromo Habtegyorrgis with his clan army was primeminister & war minister just to name very few among the many 10s of Eritrean & Oromo ministers & top generals who shared the state power. People of Zulu, Masai, Ashanti or the 13 colonies of USA still speaks English but not considered colony of England no more because there is no dictionary that defines colonization by what people speak/culture but defined on how the state power is shared. Segregation political system is equal to colonization/apartheid which characterizes OLF & TPLF parties because no person with Amhara/Wolayta/Surma/Gambella/Gurage blood is allowed to participate in their secret closed door meeting. Do I have to bring this paragraph to wherever you mention 'colonization'? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 21:18, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Amhara/Abyssinian colonization of non-Amharas is well documented including the Annexation of Eritrea which is a colonial action. Then the forced Amharaization/Abyssiniazation. That is why you have groups like TPLF and OLF who have fought against this and now you as a Amhara person are facing the consequences of your ethnic groups past historical action. And Token Members of the Elite does not change the definition of colonization, Amhara people at the top of the heirarchy and the rest providing the resources(labor and natural resources). Your form of colonization is Black on Black colonization.Otakrem (talk) 21:37, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem, you know I am an educated enlightened person and no body convinces me without explaining to me in detail on what colonisation is and how the coloniser-colonised relation was in world history. Someone saying "you have to accept because I said so" or "because X & Y libration fronts (polticians not relevant experts in wold history to define colonisation) said so". Do you deny the fact that for me to be just a member (leadership is obviously not possible) of Ku Klux Klan & Aparthide top leadership I have to be born white. To be part of the leadership committee of the coloniser nation England & Italy not only was I need to be born white but also need to be citizen of England & Italy. People born from Oromo & Eritrean blood/genealogy in full or in half were members and even leaders under Menelik, Hailselase, Aman Andom & Mengistu administration. But now in 2016 if I want to be a a member (leadership is obviously not possible) of OLF or TPLF I have to be born as an Oromo & Tigrayan. These are the facts that everyone knows and it is upto any one who is educated & enlightened person to decide who is coloniser/aparthide/segragation system and who is not. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:52, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
 * EthiopianHabesha Do you speak Oromo or Tigrinya? Have you ever been forced to speak either languages? Your Answer is NO!. You were never under the ethnic domination of neither Oromo nor Tigrinya-speakers. Give up this Tokenism argument that you have been spewing trying to be an Apologist to Colonization done by Amhara-dominated regimes. Otakrem (talk) 09:59, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem, people of the 13 colonies of America were white and speak English as their native language but yet no place for them in the centeral government of United Kingdom & for that reason they are regarded as colonies of United Kingdom (England, Scotland & wales). Many Oromos while speaking their language & identifying themsleves with their own blood/geneology/clan/identity like referring themselves as Chebo person, Abichu person, Yejju person were given state power share & even ruled Amhara & Tigre people. However, the 16th centuary non Oromo (equivalent to your use of non Amhara-Tigrayan) states and it's inhabitants recorded by Gragn Mohamed Arab chroniclers/historians were absorbed, forced to deny their genealogy, clan name & identity & forced to speak Oromo; so now by your definition of colonization you stated above "colonisation means forcing people to speak one language" then which one is colonization when we compare & analyse them impartially? You see this is why I have said earlier on why we need to be carefull when we use such kind of terms in between African peoples because they are suicide terms. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 13:14, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Tigre people
Otakrem, you do realise Tigre people are also considered Habesha? And do you also realise that the mainland Tigre people which fell under the Abyssinia/Al-Habash region only converted to Islam in the 19th Century? For this reason alone, there is no other reasons you have left as to why they are not Habesha. Your edits are seriously frustrating and that page has now become a mess.

Another thing, why has a page been made for "Tigrinya" people? They are the same people as the Tigrayans, just split over two countries, both practice the same thing and I find it highly offensive as one to see this. Resourcer1 (talk) 12:06, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Are the Tigre people the same people who fought against the Amhara/Abyssinians in Eritrean War for Independence? Rhetorical question, ofcourse they were...same as theTigrinyas. They are not the same people(s)...infact, I read books outside of Wikipedia on this topic and i know more so than what you or any editor writes on Wikipedia. Otakrem (talk) 14:29, 11 September 2016 (UTC)


 * OtakremWhat has fighting the Amhara got to do with it? Are you trying to tell me only the Amhara are Habesha? All of these people you mentioned are, they had their own historical land boundaries and that is why Eritrea wanted it's independence. The term Habesha didn't come into existence so late on. You're also trying to hint that Tigrinya people are not Habesha, which is ridiculous. It was a term to describe N Ethiopia and Eritrea. You haven't provided anything to say Tigre are not Habesha. You're talking to an ethnic Ethiopian/Eritrean too. Resourcer1 (talk) 14:36, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Habesha is another name for Abyssinia which was the creation of the Solomonic Dynasty which is the creation of the Amhara People. I haven't provided any evidence to say Shankall aren't Habesha either, why should I prove a Negative? It is Amhara/Habesha like yourselves that should prove that everyone you decide is a Habesha, is a Habesha?!
 * It comes from the Arabic name for the region. The term came along during Akhsum times, not Abyssinia. My mother is Amhara and father is Tigrinya. The only thing you seem to be showing is political views and now that page has become a mess thanks to you. Show me the sources that show Tigrinya and Tigrayans in Ethiopia are not the same ethnic group. We speak the same language, are the same ethnically, practice the same culture but are split over two countries. Resourcer1 (talk) 14:53, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Eritrean War for Independence is a good starting point, then read the history of Eritrean Tigrinyas versus Tigrayan warlords like Ras Alula. As for the Tigre people, they do not consider themselves Abyssinians nor Habesha, this is a stretch and a form of cultural genocide by Amhara/Abyssinian-hegemonic agenda on Wikipedia.Otakrem (talk) 14:58, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I just said the term comes from Akhsum times! Stop bringing up Abyssinia, Abyssinia expanded to a lot of areas but not all of them have even been mentioned on that page. Reading the history of war lords? Is that how you came to this conclusion? You simply think Eritrean Tigrinya are a different ethnic group because they are from two different countries with two different views. It's not about what people want to call themselves, I could say the same for racially offensive words like 'negro' but they still have wikipedia pages referring to black people, this isn't anything different. Stop editing that page leaving half of it contradictory or I will ask for it to get locked.Resourcer1 (talk) 15:03, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the Aksumites were Not Habashats. Many sources have been provided on this, go read the Talkpages on Abyssinian article. Ask for it to get locked since you want to only show ONE VIEW of this issue. Wikipedia is meant to show all important views. I'm not the first to contest nor shall I be the last.Otakrem (talk) 15:07, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Well the word is that old and from what it came for, it described that region. You simply want to skip ahead to Abyssinian times. The sources don't even agree with what is said on the Wikipedia article. You have yet to show me evidence of how Tigrinya in Eritrea are different to the ones in Ethiopia. My view is better than your political new-world view. Keep that sort of talk in outside forums, this site is for information, not biased, political nonsense on a page describing a group of people.Resourcer1 (talk) 15:14, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I've read enough books and provided sources on this topic, therefore your personal opinion is not fact. Your view is political, not mine. The Biased editor like yourself writes on. You are not even here to discuss but to Force your POV onto me and this article. Otakrem (talk) 15:16, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Yet you still haven't given me a source for this Tigrinya 'fact' you brought up. I am looking for sources but you can't gove them to me because all you have is political views, hence why you keep bringing up our war for independence. Resourcer1 (talk) 15:27, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * You seem angry and upset and accusatory, "our war for independence", that is a fact, a war for independence is quite telling of how a people identify themselves. Obviously you are missing the point here. Ethnic identification is more than the criteria you have personally determined. You may be a halfway member of each group, not my problem. But each group is two ethnicities per ethnic identification criteria.Otakrem (talk) 15:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * But Ethiopia wasn't Abyssinia when independence did happen? It's not a matter of personal preference that removes the Habesha label, it is a word that was used by others in history... if we went by your way, go delete the offensive 'negro/n*****' page. Amhara and Tigrinya is two different groups I agree, but as an Eritrean Tigrinya, I am saying the ethnic group is the same with Tigrayans. We just need a way of differentiating ourselves that's why there are so many words for it. Same thing with Austrian and mainland Germany Germans. Still waiting for the sources.Resourcer1 (talk) 15:38, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Mai Weini, a Highland Village in Eritrea: A Study of the People, Their ... By Kjetil Tronvoll, an Anthropologist who actually and studied the Tigrinya ethnic group in Eritrea. Tigrayans and Tigrinya are not the same people. Infact, they have several differences including Dialect, social structure, village structures..etc. You may be an Eritrean Tigrinya who has roots from Tigray from what you are stating. Most Eritrean Tigrinyas do not see themselves as the same ethnic group as Tigrayans.Otakrem (talk) 20:19, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Nope, all of my Eritrean Tigrinya side is from Mendefera. I am saying they are as an ethnic group. Just because they have a different dialect it doesn't mean they are different. Every language has dialects. And social structures? Really like what? Apart from Enderta, Temben and Raya, I cannot tell the difference between Northern Tigrayans and Eritreans, impossible. You have not actually stated the differences, and these defintely do not make them a new ethnic group. I don't call myself a Tigrayan, but in no way have I said they are completely different people to us.Resourcer1 (talk) 20:26, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * "Teegray is now almost universally acquainted with the Amharic language, and their customs, food and dress have become so assimilated to those of the Amharas, as not to require separate description, though their hatred of that people is undiminished."(1997, John Young, Page, p. 44.)

“The people of Hamazain and Serowee, since the time of Ras Michael, though speaking the same language, are still scarcely (hardly) considered by the people of Teegray as a portion of that country whose governors, since that period, have made war on them….” (1868, Walter Chichele Plowden, P. 39) The arrival of a large number of Tigray migrants introduced a new element into the colonial situation, paving the way for a development that continues to bedevil relationships between Tigray and Kebesa until the present day. The labour demands of the colonial economy not only drew a large number of rural Eritreans into the new economic centres but also attracted numerous poor Tigray migrants, particularly from the impoverished Agame province of Tigray. These migrants came as day labourers into the towns and took over jobs that the Kebesa found unattractive. In many villages, families whose sons were working for the Italians adopted the practice of taking on Tigray migrants as tenant farmers to work the lands for their absent sons. These tenants were not given land titles or local citizenship rights like the indigenous members of the village community but remained second-class citizens within the local communities. (1998, Richard M Trivelli, P. 268) So are you "Agame Tigray migrant"?, according to this source if you are saying you are the same as Tigrayans, then you are most likely descended from Agame Tigray migrants.Otakrem (talk) 20:38, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Eritrea's Tigrigna have increasingly distanced themselves from their Ethiopian counterparts to the extent that the two communities now seem to regard themselves as distinct. (2006, Dorina Akosua Oduraa, p. 89)Otakrem (talk) 20:40, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem What you linked says tribe, but I am seeing where you are coming from. So what you are trying to say is, we are collectively the same people as one of the wikipedia pages states, but between us some differences? So what you are trying to say is Tigrinya speakers (Biher Tigrinya & Tigrayans) are like Arabs (for example Algerian & Saudi), different dialects and small cultural differences? If so I agree with you then! You just made it seem at first that we are as different as Chinese and Indian. Also, now we are on the same line, can I suggest changing the Tigrinya page to "Kebesa"? Otherwise it doesn't agree with the link you sent me about the language being the same but the tribe is different. Also a not on the Tigrayans, I have heard speakers of Northern Areas of Axsum, Shire, Adwa and Agame speaking and the dialect is the same as our one (I'm guessing you're Eritrean). Those in Enderta and below, I believe have definitely merged parts of the language with Amharic. Food and dress however remains the same. Resourcer1 (talk) 21:21, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Resourcer1 The ethnic definition is more than just language, food, clothing because if it was based on those criterias alone, Amhara, Gurage, Tigrinya, Tigrayans would be considered one ethnic group of which the "Abyssinian" article is making the claim. You can add "Kebessa" as an alternative name but the name giving by the Eritrean government is "Biher Tigrinya". I am not Eritrean btw just a researcher and reader of many things. Also, I like to provide the alternative view to "dominating" views in many topics, ethnicity/history/geography/political science etc.Otakrem (talk) 21:29, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * OtakremI agree, there are many things which constitute to an ethnic group, although genetics is always the first thing that comes to mind. And alright I will, Biher Tigrinya is also better I agree, but I will put Kebessa too. I'm also going to change the "Tigrayan" page to simply "Tigrinya people". As really, Tigrayan simply implies only Tigrayans, not Biher-Tigrinya, and I will say Tigrinya people are made up of Tigrayans and Biher Tigrinya. Would just like to confirm before I do it. I've made a change to the dialect part too, two dialects exist, but the Asmara vs Tigray dialect is not backed up and Madote is definitely not reliable. There are briefly two dialects, Northern and Southern but the Northern group also includes northern Tigray, the Southern of course is the rest of Tigray. These two researches (Wolf Leslau is a well know Semitic Langauges professor) have studied the two dialects and noted differences, https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jRMWPSfPBysC&pg=PA763&lpg=PA763&dq=tigrinya+dialects+adwa&source=bl&ots=PXR1zT_3gM&sig=k9AzPyzgKfYCfwfGnQQnc4Q8UAg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwioy5OfoYjPAhXJWRoKHcG8CV8Q6AEILjAC#v=onepage&q=tigrinya%20dialects%20adwa&f=false . If you could add this to the Tigrayan page, that will be helpful, I am not good with sourcing links. Resourcer1 (talk) 21:49, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Resourcer1 Word of advice, I wouldn't change the name of the Tigrayan article go read the Talkpage, several pages worth of discussion had gone on there. That is why there is a separate Tigrinya article to focus on Biher Tigrinya and the current debate is how to split the two articles. And the argument of "genetics" is not valid when it comes two ethnic groups that don't intermix as much as you may assume they do. Geneticists have done tests and found nearby ethnic groups tend to have farther dna most likely Biher Tigrinya share more genetics with the other Eritrean ethnic groups as there is intermixing between Bilen, Tigre, Tigrinya, Saho. As far as my understanding, the two groups do see each other as different ethnic group even though they share a language and culture which is also shared with the Amhara. The Biher-Tigrinya also share cultures and languages(loan words) from Tigre, Bilen, Saho, Beja, Afar...etc. Otakrem (talk) 04:00, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
 * OtakremOkay I will take a look at that. What I was trying to say is that it shouldn't be called 'Tigrayans' if it mentions Biher Tigrinya people, which I think you agree? This current article should be titled after both and be an overall one, and each should also have their own? Resourcer1 (talk) 11:25, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Resourcer1, I don't know if other editors will accept it or not but first rename Tigrinyas and everything found in both articles as Biher-Tigrinya to 'Kebesa people'. After that rename 'Tigrayan people' as 'Tigrinya People' and in the introduction of the article we can say "Tigrinya People also known as Tigrayan people in Ethiopia and Kebesa people in Eritrea". After renaming the article that has been central for both probably there might be another new article for 'Tigrayan people' linked to this central article. Probably this might work & might be approved by other editors which is based on your proposal made above. I oppose Otakrems idea of splitting the article with no central article. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:11, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem EthiopianHabesha That would be correct, but the second would not be. I'm going to put it simply. In English, a person from Tigray can be referred to as a Tigrayan. In Tigrinya, this is ትግራወይ (Tigrawey) for male, and ትግራወይቲ (Tigraweyti) for a female. In Eritrea (I am half of this), we refer to ourselves as Biher-Tigrigna (even this is barely used and we prefer regions), not simply Tigrinya. Tigrinya is just the language, it doesn't denote any of us whether we are from Tigray, Eritrea, or whether we are speaking in Tigrinya or English. The article should be titled Tigrayan-Biher Tigrinya people, not Tigrayan. The Tigrinya people page should not be titled as such either, we do not address each other as "Tigrinya" people.Resourcer1 (talk) 19:14, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Resourcer1, other editors also asked for moving the article title to Tigray-Tigrinya People (which I also support) and an administrator, i think, is opposing this move on the ground it violates Wikipedia rule. But you could try to request for a move again and see what will happen. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 21:52, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

English Tigre vs Amharic Tigre
Otakrem About the miraculous comment you made on the Abyssinia talk page. You do realise in Amharic ትግሬ Tïgre respectively means Tigrayans? If you seriously thought we were calling them the Tigre in Eritrea, you have it completely wrong! It is simply two words with different meanings, stop making false accusations. Resourcer1 (talk) 15:59, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

ANI
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:42, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Tigrayans
you have been reported Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents--Sennaitgebremariam (talk) 18:51, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

And reported again. Please respond. --Neil N  talk to me 01:49, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents
 * Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents

September 2016
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war&#32; according to the reverts you have made on Talk:Abyssinian people. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement. Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states: If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Muffled Pocketed  13:05, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
 * 2) Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

Blocked for sockpuppetry
You are wasting everyone's time. Putting aside the issue of Otakrem2, check user evidence confirms that you also operated the CowardlyAbyssinian account. Of greater concern, you also operated the Puhleec account, at the same time as this account, editing and posting in the same articles and talk pages. Although you were originally blocked as a master of the Otakrem2 account (check user not having yet confirmed CowardlyAbyssinian at this time), the block tags were changed to show that you are now blocked as a sock of Puhleec. Socks are always indefinitely blocked and seldom (if ever) unblocked. The only account you stand any chance of getting unblocked is Puhleec, but the case that you would need to submit would need to be phenomenally good.

Every time you edit in Wikipedia, the server records many details about your accounts including (but not limited to), your IP address; the operating system on your PC (including version); your web browser (including version). That check user has matched all the recorded details for all four accounts makes it a near certainty that they are the same person. The issue that existed between you and Resourcer1 is now a complete red herring because all your edits and posts were in strict violation of Wikipedia's socking policy.

One other point of concern is that you have been complaining that you were unable to log into this account. Yet you seem to have been able to do so after all in order to make this unblock request. -- Elektrik Fanne  11:31, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Did you not read what I wrote above? I am not Puhleec nor CowardlyAbyssinian. I am Otakrem and I used the Otakrem2 account to communicate my issue with my Otakrem account.Otakrem (talk) 03:15, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * We have the technical means to determine if you are using multiple accounts. Sockpuppet investigations/Puhleec/Archive --Neil N  talk to me 03:21, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I am not User Puhleec or CowardlyAbyssinian even if your technical means says the machine(s) used was used by a Puhleec or CowardlyAbyssinian user also.Otakrem (talk) 03:26, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

,, Otakrem (talk) 03:38, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
 * User:NeilN, what is this Resourcer1 doing here? with these Diffs?
 * Also the EthiopianHabesha and Resourcer1 have been mentioning my user account name in their arguments with another user. I suspect that these two users are Sockpuppets of each other. . They both worked together to get me banned and seem to be doing the same with some other users on wikipedia. A sockpuppet investigation of these two is highly warranted and their(his/her) behaviour is quite telling from the number of editors that have brought attention to their behaviour on articles associated with Ethiopia, Abyssinian people, Oromo people, Amhara people, etc. I suspect these two are working in a team of editors that are attacking articles in wikipedia. Otakrem (talk) 03:52, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Tigrinya Dialects
By Siegbert Uhlig''' Page 763 - 765.Otakrem (talk) 04:04, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Soupforone See which talks about the Tigrinya dialects that have been documented: Northern Tigrinya Dialect (Hamasien, AkeleGuzay) and Southern Tigrinya Dialect(Tigray region) '''Proceedings of the XVth International Conference of Ethiopian Studies ...
 * Soupforone Otakrem Firstly you are banned. Secondly the Northern Tigrinya dialect applies to areas in Northern Tigray too. It is places in the Southern part of the Tigray region that have the different dialect. Your source clearly states that Adwa is also in the Northern category.Resourcer1 (talk) 12:20, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Resourcer1Resaurcer1 Firstly, I didn't message you therefore your response to me here is not welcome by me. Secondly, my message was written to Soupforone for whom you have accused being a sockpuppet here which is not welcome. Thirdly, You Resourcer1 Resaucer|Resah sahstory a game (it aint) you are, you are a Sockpuppet of EthiopianHabesha and HistoryofEthiopia.Otakrem (talk) 03:03, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Otakrem, if you want to be unblocked, I suggest accepting mentorship from a more experienced editor. Anyway, Fitzgerald, following Leslau (1939), indicates that the Northern Tigrinya dialect is spoken in Akkele Gouzay and Hamasen in Eritrea, as well as in Adwa in northern Ethiopia . So Resourcer1 actually seems to be correct here about its speech area. Cheers-- Soupforone (talk) 17:58, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Resourcer1 is a sockpuppet of EthiopianHabesha. Both are the same Ethiopian Amhara ethnic person forcing their Amhara/Abyssinian agenda in the Abyssinian people and Tigrayans articles. Even thouth this is A Game to Resourcer1, even tho he is A Game in his own mind, this article Tigrinyas is NOT A GAME article like he would wish it would be since he feels liek a A GAME himself. Self-identification by his self-agenda-driven self doesn't translate to an article becoming his OWN PERSONAL OPINION and the Opinion of his 40 Yier Family Opinion since he Resourcer1 is NOT ERITREAN Biher-Tigrinya and NEVER WILL BE ERITREAN Biher-Tigrinya!. Wikipedia can't not be based of Personalitis like Resourcer1 tryin to force their personal family opinions on the MAJORITY of ERITREAN TIGRINYAS who REJECT Resourcer1 and his 40yrFamily!..REJECTED!.....!!! Otakrem (talk) 03:21, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * An unblock is not going to happen. This account is blocked as a sock puppet of another sock master.  Puppets are rarely, if ever, unblocked.  Otakrem, you are not allowed to use this talk page for any purpose other than discussing your block.  To do so risks your ability to edit it being revoked.   -- Elektrik Fanne   18:02, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Eletrik, I'll do you one better, I'll stop login in. You or wikipedia can go ahead and delete the accounts: Otakrem and Otakrem2.Otakrem (talk) 03:03, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem, you should try and adhere to the guidelines on WP:GAPB. Your appeal could perhaps be granted if you assert that the block is no longer necessary because you understand what you are blocked for, you will not do it again, and you will make productive contributions instead. Also, it makes no difference whether or not Resourcer1 is ethnically Amhara or you are Tigrinya. It only matters if there is any polemic stuff, as per WP:NOTADVOCATE. Soupforone (talk) 15:28, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

As regards the Tigrinya dialects, I understand what you mean. Fitzgerald writes that per Leslau, the Northern dialect is spoken in Akkele Gouzay and Hamasen in Eritrea and in Adwa in northern Ethiopia. However, following Berhane (1991), she also indicates that the Southern dialect is the Tigrinya variety that is spoken in the Tigray province in northern Ethiopia, including in the Adwa and Axum districts. Therefore, the Northern dialect does appear to be that mainly spoken in Eritrea, whereas the Southern dialect is that mainly spoken in northern Ethiopia. The lone exception is the Adwa district, where apparently both dialects are spoken. So you and Resourcer1 appear to be correct here. Soupforone (talk) 15:28, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Soupforone, I am not permitted to discuss and therefore you don't have to respond to me here. Do with this as you will. I am done with wikipedia.Otakrem (talk) 04:39, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Otakrem, you are permitted to discuss, as your talk page privileges haven't been revoked. Soupforone (talk) 17:41, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Resourcer1, Fitzgerald asserts that the Southern Tigrinya variety is the dialect of Tigray. This is based on Berhane, who is himself apparently a speaker of the Southern dialect. She also specifies that the Axum and Adwa dialects are mainly influenced by Northern Tigrinya. Therefore, what Fitzgerald seems to be indicating here is that these two Tigray varieties are actually Southern dialects, albeit ones heavily influenced by the adjacent Northern Tigrinya dialect. Quite odd, since she also asserts per Leslau that the Northern dialect is spoken in Adwa. Soupforone (talk) 17:41, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * , no, Otakrem is permitted to discuss their block and request an unblock. That's it. Please stop posting here about other matters. --Neil N  talk to me 17:45, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Is what Resourcer1 doing here Permitted by Wikipedia?
Please see that this Resourcer1 has done this edit to the Puhleec sockpuppet investigation, has this even been confirmed? See Otakrem (talk) 03:14, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Bbb23,
 * If you noticed the edit, you also should have noticed that I reverted it.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:11, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Bbb23 I was trying to report the user Duqsene but I didn't know how to. Has an IP check been done on the user? Resourcer1 (talk) 16:19, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Sockpuppet investigations/Puhleec/Archive.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:22, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

I am not Dusguene user. Bbb23 can you stop this resourcer1 user from continually bothering me. I've been blocked just tired of resourcer using my name in other accusations against other users. I am not an excuse for resourcer's inability to collaboritvely discuss wikipedia edits.Otakrem (talk) 07:45, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

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