User talk:Otelemuyen

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June 2022
Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Yoruba religion, without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear to be constructive and has been reverted. If you only meant to make a test edit, please use your sandbox for that. ''Note also that you cannot remove citation need tags without removing the tagged trxt. That’s a violation of WP:Verify'' Doug Weller  talk 19:13, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi Otelemuyen! I noticed that you recently marked an edit as minor&#32;at Ọlọrun that may not have been. "Minor edit" has a very specific definition on Wikipedia – it refers only to superficial edits that could never be the subject of a dispute, such as typo corrections or reverting obvious vandalism. Any edit that changes the meaning of an article is not a minor edit, even if it only concerns a single word. Please see Help:Minor edit for more information. Thank you. Doug Weller talk 20:11, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Without sounding out of pocket, it’s probably best you go and check the history of the said article.

Firstly, as an authority in this field, it was me who authored the said article.

It was a fellow publisher who alerted me to the changes made to the article.

Apart from the fact that the changes that corrected were minor, wrong, absurd and completely and utterly out of place, neither of those edits went through due process.

Due process being a discussion on this the talk page, tagging me and or other contributors to the article ( all these contributors are listed on the “Yoruba Group members page).

Secondly, could you kindly provide the justification for the inclusion of those edits.

Let’s talk about those absurd inclusions into an article that is being monitored and updated by active Yoruba Group Members, one of whom is texting you right now.

Furthermore, anyone attempting to edit any of the articles under our jurisdiction ought to be aware that they need to put their thoughts in the talk page first and then we can discuss. The absence of such process can only be considered vandalism. Otelemuyen (talk) 20:45, 9 June 2022 (UTC)


 * If you are an authority in the field, WP:EXPERTS may be of use to you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:29, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Please see WP:ANI
Doug Weller talk 07:50, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Yoruba art
Please do not continue to revert to your desired change in this article. If you do so, I will have to report you. Please see BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 17:43, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

You’re wrong, I’ve given you the opportunity to explain yourself in the talk pages. Yet you refuse.

It’s you starting an editing war for no specific reason other than an absurd and incorrect notion that exist in your head and yours alone.

Only you in the whole world thinks that sub-Sahara is a continent.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 17:51, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Again, before you make a fool of yourself, I’m asking you to come to our Yoruba Art talk page and discuss.

Go to Yoruba Art, click the talk page and reply to the message left for you there. I ask you to explain yourself instead of attempting to impose what can only be described as bigotry onto anyone else.

Otelemuyen (talk) 17:54, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

June 2022
 You have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 week for 3RR violation, personal attacks on other editors at talk pages. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page:. Black Kite (talk) 18:23, 10 June 2022 (UTC)


 * ANI permalink for patrolling admin - here. Black Kite (talk) 18:40, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

The term sub-Sahara is wrong, absurd and is a viscous insinuation.

Kindly answer this question Bishonen

Who would you refer as sub-Sahara and why would you use this term when it’s already been proven to be wrong in every way shape or form.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 19:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Take a look at these 2 links:. Is it possible that other people, on and off Wikipedia, without evil intent, is reading the term differently than you do? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:57, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Furthermore I never claimed to own any topic I clearly stated that as it pertains to WikiProject Yoruba topics.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 19:50, 10 June 2022 (UTC)


 * You said you were the overseer. Doug Weller  talk 20:28, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok after rereading it I admit that was the incorrect wording and I take full responsibility for the way it was worded.

What I actually meant however was that I founded WikiiProject Yoruba and that the topics produce by the Project members are monitored there.

Again, I take full responsibility for the way it may have come across to other readers and my intention here is in the form of contrition to that effect.

Otelemuyen (talk) 20:45, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)

Gråbergssång

It very well could be that other readers see the term “sub Sahara” void of any malice, however, these are the reasons discussing these contentious terminologies are of the outmost importance.

And I’ve provided a logical explanation to the reasoning behind the fact that such a term attempts to stifle rather than enhance the article as in this particular context, prefixes are meant to perform.

Here it is again, given that the sentence where the given prefix was included is factual in it’s in right, there really isn’t any need for it’s inclusion.

Assuming that the without the term “sub Sahara “ the sentence reads in an incorrect way or that the sentence is false, then there wouldn’t be any contention whatsoever.

However, apart from the fact that the term being introduced into that sentence is wrong, absurd and is a viscous insinuation, the term is no more than an insult to the people it intends to describe as well as indeed being mute and unnecessary; also carries no positive value.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 21:01, 10 June 2022 (UTC)


 * The positive value here is that it correctly represents the source and it's author, Babatunde Lawal, see the page numbered 11 at . On WP, correctly representing the source is positive. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:25, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Are you insisting that to describe other people as “sub Sahara” is correct?

Wow! Is this really your argument?

If it’s wrong, it’s wrong no matter the author, that isn’t even a fair point you attempt to make.

So are you suggesting that because someone else authored it then it must be correct?

I didn’t get that part, can you kindly explain


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)

Otelemuyen (talk) 21:41, 10 June 2022 (UTC)


 * We write WP-articles by summarizing the WP:RS we can get our hands on. Assuming Babatunde Lawal is one, we follow what he say. That is WP-logic. The assumption is that he choose his wording for good scholarly reasons. That you dislike the term matters less.
 * I see nothing wrong with describing a geographical area as Sub-Sahara, a temperature as sub-zero, a vessel as a submarine, a mode of transport as a subway, or a sandwhich like a sub. Goodnight. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:58, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

“ Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in Africa.”

Is that statement factual without the presence of any derogatory terminology?

If so, then there’s no need to include derogatory terminologies such as the term “sub Sahara”.

And I will like to as well reiterate the fact that the term ‘sub Sahara’ is derogatory


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 21:56, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Definition of sub-

1 : under : beneath : below subsoil subaqueous 2a : subordinate : secondary : next lower than or inferior to substation subeditor b : subordinate portion of : subdivision of subcommittee subspecies c : with repetition (as of a process) so as to form, stress, or deal with subordinate parts or relations sublet subcontract 3 : less than completely, perfectly, or normally : somewhat subacute subclinical 4a : almost : nearly suberect b : falling nearly in the category of and often adjoining : bordering on subarctic

You still don’t see anything wrong with referring to other people using the prefix ‘sub?

Otelemuyen (talk) 22:05, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)

I will ask this question again as I didn’t get any response the previous time.

“Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in Africa.”

Is the above statement factual?

Is there any contention here?


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)

Otelemuyen (talk) 22:11, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

If the above statement is indeed factual in its own right, then, what really is the point of including derogatory terminology such as “sub Sahara”?


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 22:18, 10 June 2022 (UTC)


 * The meaning of words simply does not work that way, you can't say "That part of a word can mean X so I don't like it". Anti-Semites often say they can't be anti-semitic because Arabs are Semetic and they love Arabs, but that's wrong because the word actually means anti-Jewish. And then of course you are arguing with the African Union and the Doug Weller  talk 06:32, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Again, it doesn’t matter who makes use of a derogatory term, if it’s wrong it’s wrong, there’s no two ways about it.

Using the argument that someone else uses a derogatory term makes it acceptable is in itself wrong.

Plus, you never answered my question.

“Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in Africa.”

Is the above statement correct?

Answer the question, it isn’t a trick question.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)


 * Otelemuyen (talk) 07:55, 11 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I'll respond to this and stop asking questions as I've seen you've been told to stop this war of words. It doesn't matter what I think or yhou think, it only matters what the sources say. We don't argue with them but we can bring sources that disagree. And we don't interpret them. There's a difference between all of Africa and sub-Saharan Africa, we just follow the source. Doug Weller  talk 09:08, 11 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Otelemuyen, I was utterly perplexed by the offence you appear to have taken from the use of the term "Sub-Saharan Africa" (You should read that article to understand the importance of the distinction). It is simply a widely-accepted term used in reliable sources to refer to a geographic region of the continent of Africa. Specifically, it's the part of Africa that is  South of the Sahara. That's all the "sub" prefix means in this context - it's not calling people inferior to sand, or whatever you think. The prefix "sub" has multiple meanings in English, which depend on the context of each usage. Is a submarine inferior to water? No, it's just physically below the water surface. Otelemuyen, I mean this just to try to help you... If you insist on inventing your own derogatory meaning for a term that is not in any way derogatory, and then trying to force your personal usage on the encyclopedia, I think you are likely to face further sanctions. That's not in any way a threat, as I can not impose sanctions myself. It's just a friendly warning of what I think is likely to happen. You need to drop your misunderstanding of the term "sub-Saharan". Oh, and you also need to drop your insistence that other people need your permission to edit these articles. I hope that is of some help. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I'll respond to... "Abundant natural resources enabled the Yoruba to develop one of the most complex cultures in Africa." Is the above statement correct? It depends on what the source says. Is it referring to the entire continent of Africa? If it is, it means one of the most complex cultures in Africa even compared to (for example) ancient Egypt. If it specifically means the part of Africa south of the Sahara, then it is explicitly excluding Egypt. Do you understand this distinction? So the answer to your question is... we go with what the source actually says. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:24, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

The term “sub Sahara” as being used to describe other people, is wrong, absurd, an insult as well being a viscous insinuation.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)

Otelemuyen (talk) 10:42, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Boing! said Zebedee

You make a great point,even though the statement is factual on it’s on merit, assuming what the author meant was to exclude the Nile Valley (even though I see no reason why anyone should) the term you made use of “South of the Sahara” is more appropriate.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 10:47, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You just keep repeating your assertion that the tem "sub-Saharan" is "wrong, absurd, an insult as well being a viscous insinuation" (and I think you mean "viscious" rather than "viscous") without any evidence to support it, while others have explained what the term really means. And we have articles explaining the important distinctions between Sub-Saharan Africa and North Africa. Nobody uses the term "South of the Sahara" - because that is exactly what Sub-Saharan means! And that is all it means! Anyway, if you insist you are right and everyone else is wrong, then there's no further help I can offer. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:58, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * My country is partly subarctic, btw. And parts of Africa are not only sub Saharan but also subtropic. Have a nice weekend! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:12, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Never meant or claimed to mean that users need MY permission to edit any article, and that’s not what I meant.

I meant that when there’s a contention that we should use the talk pages to reach amicable solutions.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 11:09, 11 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Which is not at all what you said, and have you really forgotten you called not using talk pages first vandalism? Doug Weller  talk 11:13, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Boing! said Zebede

-sub is a prefix that signifies something is considered

1 : under : beneath : below subsoil subaqueous 2a : subordinate : secondary : next lower than or inferior to substation subeditor b : subordinate portion of : subdivision of subcommittee subspecies c : with repetition (as of a process) so as to form, stress, or deal with subordinate parts or relations sublet subcontract 3 : less than completely, perfectly, or normally : somewhat subacute subclinical 4a : almost : nearly suberect b : falling nearly in the category of and often adjoining : bordering on subarctic

And yes, I did mean to write “vicious” rather than “viscous”.

Otelemuyen (talk) 11:16, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)
 * Let me offer you another dictionary definition, of the full term itself rather than one syllable of it...
 * "Definition of sub-Saharan: of, relating to, or being the part of Africa south of the Sahara" (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sub-Saharan).
 * Yes, "sub" can mean inferior in some contexts - subhuman, subpar... etc. But in this context it simply means South of, as every dictionary definition of the term "Sub-Saharan" shows, and as everyone else is trying to explain to you. (Oh, and even the definiton you have shown includes "bordering on" with the example "subarctic".) You are simply wrong, Otelemuyen. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:32, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Dough Weller

That’s not what I really meant, and I have already accepted responsibility and taken onboard correction.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)

Otelemuyen (talk) 11:24, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Boing! said Zebedee

If according to your definition, -sub Sahara means “South of the Sahara”, and there’s a legitimate contention on the term -sub Sahara, then what is the problem with using “South of the Sahara” instead.

And I read what you said earlier, that many don’t use “South of the Sahara”, that’s still isn’t a justification for using a derogatory term.

I hear you, you don’t see it as being derogatory, yet, Antisemites don’t see there antisemitism as being derogatory neither, it still doesn’t make it right and proper; it’s still wrong regardless.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 11:48, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not telling you how I see it, I'm showing you how reliable sources see it. As others have tried to explain, we go on reliable source usage of terms, not on what you or I personally think. And the problem with using “South of the Sahara” instead is that that is *not* what reliable sources use. If you wish to remain a Wikipedia editor, you need to accept that. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:51, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Boing! said Zebedee

I guess this is the wrong forum for this discussion.

I know what reliable sources are, all my contributions are sourced amicably, I tutor newbies on how to create articles with adequate citations and reliable sources.

Yes indeed we go by reliable sources, however, you seem to be missing the point and have not for one addressed the contention.

Perhaps you don’t care about the contention nor about the fact that the term is toxic and that’s ok, yet, making unfounded assumptions about my understanding of sourced material by way of threats won’t solve anything.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)

Otelemuyen (talk) 12:05, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi Otelemuyen, I see you can not respond here further at the moment, but I hope you don't mind if I explain myself further as I appear to have done so inadequately so far. Maybe it will be useful for you whenever you're back and might wish to continue the discussion. Firstly, I'm sorry if you saw anything I wrote as a threat - I have no powers here and I do not intend any threats, just hopefully advice. Now, on to what I meant by reliable sources. I do not mean to criticize your understanding of reliable sources as citations for Wikipedia content - I have no reason to believe there is any problem there. No, when I speak of reliable sources, I refer only to your attempts to remove the use of the term "Sub-Saharan" from Wikipedia. To succeed in that, you would need to find reliable sources that describe it as a derogatory term rather than simply making the claim yourself. For example, if you can find a dictionary that defines "Sub-Saharan" as derogatory, that would be a good start - and I mean a definition of the whole phrase, not just a list of possible meanings one of its syllables. Alternatively, are there any respected (in WP:RS terms) organizations out there that discuss the term and argue that it is derogatory? If so, that would help your case. So far, we only have your personal assertion that "Sub-Saharan" is derogatory - and merely repeating your claim multiple times and calling it a "fact" does not change that. What we would need is evidence of other people discussing the claim that it is derogatory, in reliable sources. Should you, once your block is ended, wish to continue your efforts to remove usage of "Sub-Saharan" from Wikipedia, then that's the kind of evidence I think you would need. If the evidence exists, bring it forth... Until then, I wish you well. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:23, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Warning
When you are blocked the talk page is meant for you to request unblocks, not carry on your war of words. IF this continues then your block will be extended and/or your talk page privileges revoked. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  07:57, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Why should we consider you an expert?
You call yourself one but anyone can. Doug Weller talk 09:05, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Check my contributions on Wikipedia, Wiktionary and Yo Wiki.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 10:49, 11 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Oh I've checked them on en.wiki. Very disappointing. Adding descriptions of religions that don't match those religions articles is an example. I also don't think you understand our sourcing policy. Hopefully that will change going forward. Doug Weller  talk 11:15, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

I doubt that very much can you cite an example.

Otelemuyen (talk) 11:30, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoruba_religion?wprov=sfti1

Here’s one of my contributions


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk) Otelemuyen (talk) 11:34, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gods_Are_Not_to_Blame?wprov=sfti1


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk) Otelemuyen (talk) 11:37, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ola_Rotimi?wprov=sfti1


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 11:39, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Those some of my contributions, kindly point me towards the ones you seen that needs improvement.


 * 1) Otelemuyen (talk)  Otelemuyen (talk) 11:40, 11 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm getting strong troll vibes here. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 12:09, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

June 2022
 You have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 month for abuse of editing privileges. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page:. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  12:37, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * As mentioned above in my warning, I've extended the block and revoked talk page access. You can appeal via WP:UTRS. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  12:41, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

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