User talk:OtterNYC

Welcome!
Welcome to Wikipedia, OtterNYC! Thank you for your contributions. I am BrillLyle and I have been editing Wikipedia for some time, so if you have any questions feel free to leave me a message on my talk page. You can also check out Questions or type at the bottom of this page. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: Also, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name using four tildes ( ~ ); that will automatically produce your username and the date. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! BrillLyle (talk) 15:23, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
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March 16: WikiWednesday Salon and Skill-Share NYC
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Your draft article
I noticed your remarks at DGG's page, and if I may, I could give you some advice about how to improve your draft article... there a couple of things you are doing wrong... You can reply here. Jytdog (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
 * copying comment left at my talk page in this dif, here Jytdog (talk) 18:45, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Jytdog. Thanks for your offer to comment on my draft Renee Radell.  I wish to create this page but I have a conflict in that I am related to Renee Radell. I discussed this with DGG at some length and after reviewing my source materials when we met at a Wikipedia editathon a couple of weeks ago, he suggested that if I disclose my COI, and do not submit the draft, the article may possibly be notable.  I am delighted to have met DGG and welcome his guidance. I am very new to Wikipedia and I do not want to transgress any etiquette by seeking your advice as I wait for DGG's guidance.  What would you suggest? I see you have been with Wikipedia for 6 years and have numerous edits. What may I be doing wrong if you may be so kind?OtterNYC (talk) 12:31, 21 March 2016 (UTC)OtterNYC (talk) 13:27, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
 * do whatever you want. please reply here and not on my talk page so that the thread stays together. what i tell you will not be any different from what he would say, in it major points. Jytdog (talk) 18:46, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Oh, Sorry Jytdog. From your first message "You can reply here" I thought I was supposed to go to your talk page and create a new section. I am new to how the talk pages work. But thanks for offering to be helpful. By all means, your comments on my article draft:Renee Radell are most appreciated. I thought I was being purely objective in citing the sources of her many strong complimentary reviews from art critics Renee has received over the years. After I disclosed to DGG that I was related to Renee and he quickly looked at the sources, he thought I had a shot at getting the article published, despite the COI, but advised that I show it to him in draft form. I can only suppose he is extremely busy with his various senior roles at Wikimedia. Might you take a look and suggest what I am doing wrong and how I could get it published? Thanks in advance!OtterNYC (talk) 20:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, I have a little thing I have written to help new editors, especially editors who have a COI and want to create an article about a topic on which they have a COI. I will paste it below.  Jytdog (talk) 20:30, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

How Wikipedia works, and how to create an article
OK, so I would like to get you oriented to how Wikipedia works, and give you some advice about creating the article. There are some non-intuitive things about editing here, that I can zip through ~pretty~ quickly....

The first thing, is that our mission is to produce articles that provide readers encyclopedia articles that summarize accepted knowledge, and to do that as a community that anyone can be a part of. That's the mission. As you can imagine, if this place had no norms, it would be a Mad Max kind of world interpersonally, and content would be a slag heap (the quality is really bad in parts, despite our best efforts). But over the past 15 years the community has developed a whole slew of norms, via loads of discussion. One of the first, is that we decide things by consensus. That decision itself, is recorded here: WP:CONSENSUS, which is one of our "policies". (There is a whole forest of things, in "Wikipedia space" - pages in Wikipedia that start with " Wikipedia: AAAA" or for short, " WP: AAAA". WP:CONSENSUS is different from Consensus. )   And when we decide things by consensus, that is not just local in space and time, but includes meta-discussions that have happened in the past. We call them policies and guidelines - and these documents all reside in Wikipedia space. There are policies and guidelines that govern content, and separate ones that govern behavior. Here is very quick rundown:


 * Content policies and guidelines:
 * WP:NOT (what WP is, and is not -- this is where you'll find the "accepted knowledge" thing)
 * WP:OR - no original research is allowed here, instead
 * WP:VERIFY - everything has to be cited to a reliable source (so everything in WP comes down to the sources you bring!)
 * WP:RS is the guideline defining what a "reliable source" is for general content and WP:MEDRS defines what reliable sourcing is for content about health
 * WP:NPOV and the content that gets written, needs to be "neutral" (as we define that here, which doesn't mean what most folks think -- it doesn't mean "fair and balanced" - it means that the language has to be neutral, and that topics in a given article are given appropriate "weight" (space and emphasis). An article about a drug that was 90% about side effects, would give what we call "undue weight" to the side effects.  We determine weight by seeing what the reliable sources say - we follow them in this too.  So again, you can see how everything comes down to references.
 * WP:BLP - this is a policy specifically about articles about living people. We are very careful about these articles (which means enforcing the policies and guidelines above rigorously), since issues of legal liability can arise for WP, and people have very strong feelings about other people, and about public descriptions of themselves.
 * WP:NOTABILITY - this is a policy that defines whether or not an article about X, should exist. What this comes down to is defined in WP:Golden rule - which is basically, are there enough independent sources about X, with which to build a decent article.  I reckon this will be of special interest to you.

In terms of behavior, the key norms are: If you can get all that (the content and behavior policies and guidelines) under your belt, you will become truly "clueful", as we say. If that is where you want to go, of course. I know that was a lot of information, but hopefully it is digestable enough.
 * WP:CONSENSUS - already discussed
 * WP:CIVIL - basically, be nice.  This is not about being nicey nice, it is really about not being a jerk and having that get in the way of getting things done.  We want to get things done here - get content written and maintained and not get hung up on interpersonal disputes.  So just try to avoid doing things that create unproductive friction.
 * WP:AGF - assume good faith about other editors. Try to focus on content, not contributor.  Don't personalize it when content disputes arise.  (the anonymity here can breed all kinds of paranoia)
 * WP:HARASSMENT - really, don't be a jerk and follow people around, bothering them. And do not try to figure out who people are in the real world.  Privacy is strictly protected by the WP:OUTING part of this policy.
 * WP:DR - if you get into an content dispute with someone, try to work it. If you cannot, then use one of the methods here to get wider input.  There are many - it never has to come down to two people arguing. There are instructions here too, about what to do if someone is behaving badly, in your view.  Try to keep content disputes separate from behavior disputes.   Many of the big messes that happen in Wikipedia arise from these getting mixed up.
 * WP:TPG - this is about how to talk to other editors on Talk pages, like this one, or the one in the article about you: Talk:YYY

SO... Anytime you want to create an article, here is what to do. There you go! Let me know if you have questions about any of that
 * 1) look for independent sources that comply with WP:MEDRS for anything related to health, and WP:RS for everything else, that give serious discussion to the topic, not just passing mentions. (that is really important - multiple, independent, and depth)  Start with great sources.
 * 2) Look at the sources you found, and see if you have enough per WP:Golden rule to even go forward.  If you don't, you can stop right there, and you can tell your client or friend that it unlikely that the community will accept an article.
 * 3) Read the sources you found, and identify the main and minor themes to guide you with regard to WP:WEIGHT - be wary of distortions in weight due to WP:RECENTISM
 * 4) Go look at manual of style guideline created by the relevant WikiProject, to guide the sectioning and other style matters (you can look at articles on similar topics but be ginger b/c WP has lots of bad content)  - create an outline. (For example, for biographies, the relevant project is WP:WikiProject Biography)
 * 5) Create the article in draft space. Create the talk page, and disclose your COI there.   If you have any difficulties with this, please let me know and I can help.
 * 6) Try to forget everything you already know, and start writing the body, based only (only!)  on what is in the sources you have, and source each sentence as you go.
 * 7) Make sure you write in neutral language.  Avoid colorful language of all kinds.
 * 8) When you are done, write the lead and add infobox, external links, categories, etc
 * 9) Consider adding banners to the Talk page, joining the draft article to relevant WikiProjects, which will help attract editors who are interested and knowledgeable to help work on the article.
 * 10) The completed work should have nothing unsourced (because the sources drove everything you wrote, not prior knowledge or personal experiences or what the friend wanted; there should be no original research nor WP:PROMO in it.
 * 11) Submit your article for review via the WP:AFC process - again I can help there if you like.  You will get responses from reviewers, and you can work with them to do whatever is needed to get the article ready to be published.

If you review your draft article in light of that - especially #6 and #7, you are going to see a bunch of problems. There is a lot of unsourced stuff in the article, and a lot of colorful language. You need to be very strict with yourself to follow the policies carefully, since you so clearly adore Renee. Jytdog (talk) 20:40, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Note - I went ahead and created the Talk page and joined the draft to three WikiProjects, members of which may come and help with the draft and review process. Jytdog (talk) 20:47, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

discussion
Thanks for you comments and for taking a critical look at what I have done. I have the very flattering articles from art critics over the years who say all those adoring things and I thought that since I have the source, I could convey their compliments. But I now see that is only looking at one side and does not meeting the objectivity standards. I will look at it again carefully and try to modify it to suit the WP standards. I hope you and others may evaluate Ms. Radell's level of notability and consider a modified version of this article for the WP collection. Much appreciated. OtterNYC (talk) 22:20, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I do think that she appears to meet the NOTABILITY standards. To the extent that you can link to online versions of sources you will provide reviewers with a lot of help.  And please do check for unsourced statements. Jytdog (talk) 22:28, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Nice to have your initial assessment about NOTABILITY and I will do research to find those online links to assist reviewers. I have seen some of the articles in online libraries (like the Detoit News, Detroit Free Press) and I intend to go to the New York Public Library this week to find more, but how and where, may I ask, do I copy these links so the reviewrs can see them? Does all this happen on the draft:Renee Radell page? Or do anyone's improvements happen on the draft talk:Renee Radell page? I looked at Wikipedia:WikiProject Directory and did not see anything on her. So I guess I just wait to see who makes comments on the draft:Renee Radell page... Any guidance is again very much appreciated.OtterNYC (talk) 23:47, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
 * sources don't have to be online. It just helps reviewers if they are.  if they are not, they are not!  just be sure to record the citation fully so that if anybody wants to track down paper-only sources, they can. Jytdog (talk) 23:50, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Got it. I'll do my best and thanks again for your interest.OtterNYC (talk) 03:11, 22 March 2016 (UTC)


 * please email me again, so we can get in touch.  DGG ( talk ) 04:20, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi DGG. I sent you a message on your talk page. Hope to connect. When you suggest me sending you an e-mail, kindly indicate to which page please? I look forward to chatting with you.OtterNYC (talk) 20:21, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi Jytdog. Please take a look at the Renee Radell article that is now live!!! Thanks for all your suggestions. Hope to meet you one day. Thanks again. OtterNYC (talk) 04:13, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I've been following it. Jytdog (talk) 04:22, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

April 13: WikiWednesday Salon NYC and Mini-Video Opportunity
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Conflict of interest in WP
Hi OtterNYC

So there are two pieces to COI management in Wikipedia. One is disclosure, and the other is "peer review". You actually did the peer review thing by putting the draft article through AFC. Now that it is live, "peer review" means that instead of making direct changes to the article, you propose changes on the talk page. The WP:COI guideline discusses this. Would you please do that going forward? Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 05:29, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Oh. sorry, I didn't know that and certainly will follow the protocol going forward. I was with Jim Hendersen last night making the changes and it didn't come up. Thanks for the tip! OtterNYC (talk) 00:29, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It's OK I didn't explain that earlier, and forgot to swing back around after I moved the article into mainspace. btw, your edit note said something like "per Jim Hendersen" and that is not an OK justification for a change in Wikipedia.   (forgetting for a minute that your aren't supposed to edit this article directly...) You could have removed the "expressionist" label on the basis that it was unsourced (everything has to have a source!) but you can't remove it because of your personal authority or some other person's... (see above!)  Thanks, it has been great working with you.  So nice to see other people come and work on the article, isn't it?  A bit scary, but also just beautiful.  Jytdog (talk) 01:01, 15 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid my name has only weak magic, and only among a small group of editors who work on a few topics. Arts people never heard of me. Otherwise you answered properly. You can do other things. Read about WP:CATEGORY and consider recategorizing some articles. Also use WikiProject Visual arts to find kindred spirits. And look around with WP:HELP to see what you can do. Jim.henderson (talk) 01:10, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
 * my goodness you have been around here forever! pleased to meet you. :) Jytdog (talk) 03:19, 15 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Jim was kind enough to sit with me after our meeting in New York yesterday and give me some serious pointers about categories. I also kidded with him that I would add his name as the source and he good naturedly agreed! Actually, Renee Radell was likened to "Expressionist" painters in a valid source. My suggestion to Jim was that Expressionist is misleading since most art people associate the Expressionist movement primarily with "Abstract Expressionism"(which has its own category) and we needed to create a category "Figurative Expressionism" (which we did).  But let me thank you Jydog for moving me first article into the mainspace.  Nice to work with hard core Wikipedians! OtterNYC (talk) 04:36, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Books for you!
Check out Wikipedia – The Missing Manual and its editable version Help: Wikipedia: The Missing Manual. Consult me if needed.--DThomsen8 (talk) 18:32, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * thanks, very helpful OtterNYC (talk) 01:59, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

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Sat Aug 14: Wikimania Wiknic NYC
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 18:48, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

August 25: ONLINE WikiWednesday Salon NYC
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 14:18, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

September 29: ONLINE WikiWednesday Salon + Annual Members' Meeting NYC
Upcoming events:
 * Prospect Park photo contest, ongoing
 * Latinx Art Wikipedia Edit-a-thon, October 6
 * Wiki-Pavilion Picnic NYC in Prospect Park (with WikiProject Craft + WikiConference North America), October 10

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--Wikimedia New York City Team 04:40, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Sunday: Wiki-Pavilion Picnic NYC (part of WikiConference NA, Oct 8-10)
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 17:21, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Dec 15: ONLINE WikiWednesday Salon NYC
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 18:50, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Saturday Feb 5: ONLINE Met Afrofuturist edit-a-thon (and monthlong campaign)
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 05:27, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Wikimedia NYC: Strategic Planning Survey for our community
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 18:38, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Feb 23: ONLINE WikiWednesday Salon NYC
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 19:39, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Mar 27: Wiki-Tent Brunch in Brooklyn
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 04:13, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

WikiWednesday tonight + Sunday Wiki-Tent Brunch
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 13:23, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Apr 24: Wiki-Picnic and WikiSeder in Brooklyn
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--Wikimedia New York City Team MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:48, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Apr 27: ONLINE WikiWednesday Salon NYC
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 02:33, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

May 22: Wiki-Picnic and Hackathon in Brooklyn
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 02:18, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

May 25: ONLINE WikiWednesday Salon NYC
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 00:45, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

NYC Wiknic, June 26
Hold the date. Meetup/NYC Wiknic in Crotona Park, Sunday June 26.

Watch Meetup/NYC/Wiknic June 2022 for further details as they become available.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:31, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

June 22: ONLINE WikiWednesday Salon NYC
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--Wikimedia New York City Team 14:50, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Sun June 26: Bronx Wiki-Picnic
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:46, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Thu July 14: Astoria Beer Garden Wiki-Picnic
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:37, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

July 27: WikiWednesday Salon NYC (+Aug in-person for Wikimania)
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:42, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Fri/Sat/Sun Aug 12-14 with Saturday flagship Wiki World's Fair at Queens Museum
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:59, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Aug 24: WikiWednesday Salon NYC (+Sep annual meeting)
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:45, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Sep 28: Wikimedia NYC Annual Election/Members Meeting (+October 2 picnic)
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 01:38, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Sun Oct 2: WikiNYC Post-Election Wiki-Picnic
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:34, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Sat Oct 29: Wikidata Day in NYC
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:00, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Sat Nov 12: WikiConference North America in NYC
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:15, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Nov 30: WikiWednesday Salon in Brooklyn + online
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:39, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Dec 28: WikiWed Salon (+ Wikipedia Day on Jan 15)
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:28, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Sun Jan 15: Wikipedia Day returns to NYC!
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:52, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Feb 15: WikiWednesday Salon in Brooklyn
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:47, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Mar 8: WikiWednesday Salon by Grand Central
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Apr 12 WikiWednesday + Earth Week (Apr 15-23)
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:11, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Sat: Earth Day Edit-a-thon + Sun: Wiki-Picnic
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:33, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

May 17: WikiWednesday Salon + Queering Wikipedia
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:45, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

June 21: WikiWednesday Salon back in Manhattan!
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 01:01, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

July 19 WikiWednesday + New York Botanical Garden Edit-a-thon (July 29)
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:25, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

WikiWednesday (Aug 23) and Governors Island Wiki-Picnic (Sun Aug 27)
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:54, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Sunday: NYC Wiki-Picnic @ Gov Island
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:29, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Sep 20: Wikimedia NYC Annual Election Meeting
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:01, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Sun Oct 1: NYC Hispanic/Latinx Heritage Month 2023
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Wiki.NYC Pavilion for Open House New York (Oct 21–22) and Wikidata Day (Oct 29)
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:01, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Nov 15: WikiWednesday Salon + Wikimedia NYC Executive Director job
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 05:23, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Wed Dec 6: Hacking Night + job listing
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Thu Jan 4: Hacking Night + Wikipedia Day soon
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:04, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Thu Feb 8 NYC Hacking Night + Feb 21 WikiWednesday
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:13, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Tue March 5: Wiki Gala NYC
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)