User talk:Outlander07/Archives/2021/July

Namboothiri article editing
I have sited the sourcre for marriage custom of Namboothiri from www.nampoothiri.com.Its a reliable source Unni1999 (talk) 02:13, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Please read Verifiability. R.C Outlander07@talk 15:39, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Edit of Annie Weatherwax
Hello, Thank you I will be more mindful in the future. The changes were requested from the article subjectee herself which is Annieweather Wax. I will be more detailed in the future. Than you the changes are correct

Edit of Annie Weatherwax
Can you please undo the revert of the changes you made to this page. I was asked by Annie Weather wax her self to make these changes

It's done!. R.C Outlander07@talk 14:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

The Signpost: 25 July 2021
 * Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:12, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Translation of Latin on Dante's tomb
It's just not up to snuff. At least two distinct mistranslations: 'oris' is not from 'os' 'mouth' (which doesn't even make sense) but 'ora' 'shore'. 'Dantes' is not the genitive of the name (which is rather 'Dantis'); he called himself 'Dantes' in Latin.

I implore you to use my translation which you or your robots deleted with such miraculous speed. Only correct my typo from 'Phegethon' to 'Phlegethon'.

Best regards.

I admire your work. You can try to correct those I've just reverted. R.C Outlander07@talk 15:12, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I want to ask one thing
User:Outlander07, It's been too long I must ask....where do you think the Saint Thomas Syrian Christians originated.... Please explain (202.88.249.227 (talk) 09:06, 27 July 2021 (UTC))

User:Outlander07, I request you to state the origin of the Syrian Christians of Kerala, I just want to know....Once you tell me I'll leave...(202.88.249.227 (talk) 09:11, 27 July 2021 (UTC))

I don't care about their origin or whatever, you are here only for caste promotion through numerous sock accounts. I know it is very hard to switch between accounts and . R.C Outlander07@talk 09:30, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Anyways, I'm here please tell me instead of this... I'll leave soon, I don't want any caste promotion, I'm just asking you Simonjoust (talk) 09:36, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Outlander07, How can you tell that I'm promoting caste....I know I've been wrong at my early times....If you don't care about their caste origins then how could you claim they're not Nambudiri converts.... Please talk (Simonjoust (talk) 09:40, 27 July 2021 (UTC))

User:Outlander07, Please understand that I don't want to get into a quarrel or be an ethnic promoter, I wanted to know the truth and I believed what was said in sources... Please correct me if I was wrong about their origin (Simonjoust (talk) 10:10, 27 July 2021 (UTC))

Don't you remember you were blocked previously for promotional edits concerning some family name 'Ainatu' using multiple accounts?. For almost all those edits you have provided some links to make a fake impression like well-referenced content. When it comes to their origin theory, the Nambudiri conversion tradition is nothing more than a legend and is already mentioned in the article Saint Thomas Christians and it seemed you were deliberately trying to promote the community by sticking the legendry nonsense backed by zero scholarly consensuses to claim their superiority amongst others. Even your sock edits on brahmin-related articles project your motif. There are sources stating the conversion of other communities to the Syrian Christian fold and you are purposefully ignoring them to make the articles look the way you want. R.C Outlander07@talk 14:14, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Outlander07, Yes I agree what I had done was wrong...When it comes to converts from other castes, there are many "Puthukristyaanikal" among the Syrian Christians, they are the descendants of the servants and slaves of the Syrian Christians who converted...Let me ask you something if the Syrian Christians were not from Nambudiris then how come a vast majority are fair and have vast tracks of land from ancient Times, these don't have sources but it's a well known fact... Simonjoust (talk) 14:21, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Outlander07, then if it comes to legends all communities have legends, the Nairs, Ezhavas, Thiyyas all have legends and myths but the antiquity of the Syrian Christians are noted...I admit that I had indulged in ethnical promotion months ago...(Simonjoust (talk) 14:26, 27 July 2021 (UTC))

I don't know what kind of comparison you are making. Don't you ever see a brahmin of dark complexion and fair complexion on someone from the depressed class? The Syrian Christians were acted as merchants and agriculturalists who were granted lands by the kings as the most sources would say. Please keep in mind this is Wikipedia, the content you provide should be supported by reliable authentic sources there is no place for the facts. R.C Outlander07@talk 14:56, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Can I get an explanation for this []? R.C Outlander07@talk 15:06, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Outlander07, I'm extremely sorry...It can't be explained, what I did was entirely wrong can't be justified...I don't know why, I got mad at everyone..I hope you forgive..(Simonjoust (talk) 15:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC))

Here I had tried to apologise [], but never can be justified...I shouldn't have said that (Simonjoust (talk) 15:14, 27 July 2021 (UTC))

You should disclose your other accounts in Wikipedia. Elamano & Tregallis, aren't those yours? R.C Outlander07@talk 15:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Outlander07,No those aren't mine....but if I start disclosing would it end...(Simonjoust (talk) 16:06, 27 July 2021 (UTC))

User:Outlander07,I actually didn't get an answer on the Origin... Could you provide any sources or references...If they are reliable then please add it to the article Saint Thomas Syrian Christians...(Simonjoust (talk) 16:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC))

The book 'Christianity in India From Beginnings to the Present by Robert Eric Frykenberg mentions their origin by citing the historical work Thomaparvam as the arrival of Thomas the apostle, establishing 7 churches, and converting Jews & local natives. The book also mentions the legend of Nambuthiri conversion but tend to keep it as it is. He also observes the Jews who became Christians might make the first part of the Nazrani community of Kerala and no mention was made of the other part, local natives. Leslie Brown suggests the evidence of Brahmin influence by instating the custom of Syrians wearing sacred threads and kudumis on their foreheads but most of the anthropologist's texts mention the similar customs that were followed by other communities like Samanthans, Chettis and the Kudumi system as a part of Nair and Ezhava community. It is clear from the various sources that the brahmins considered Jews to make a part of the caste system and were not likely to displace the Jews from the social hierarchy even after the conversion to Christianity same applicable to the converted local natives and is evident from the quotes made by Benedict Vadakkekara and Robin Jeffrey. R.C Outlander07@talk 09:20, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Outlander07, So what you're telling is that Syrian Christians have other Brahmin ancestry other than the Nambudiris, along with Jewish and Assyrian descend...Is it... Correct me if I'm wrong (Simonjoust (talk) 10:10, 28 July 2021 (UTC))

User:Outlander07, I would never say that all Syrian Christians were Nambudiris, even according to local legend many Karthakal, Kirayathil Nairs, Ambalavasis, Tamil Brahmins were converted. Later many Lower castes like Pulayar, Parayar, Ezhavas and Nairs were converted in the colonial period, but still they are kept as a different group (Puthukristyaanikal) (Note:These are local traditions, not to be taken seriously) (Simonjoust (talk) 10:21, 28 July 2021 (UTC))

What I would call it a mixed ethnic group or multiracial. How could someone really argue their ethnicity literally on the basis of their looks and the wealth they hold?. I can't even find a valid reason for the conversion of so-called upper castes at the time being they enjoyed high privileges in the society. As I could see the Moplas of Malabar also shared the very same social status that the Syrian Christians had at Travancore. The decline of Nair dominance paved the way for the others to acquire large tracts of land and so the upper-class conversion theory on the basis of fair complexion and the liege of lands are technically fallacious. R.C Outlander07@talk 12:58, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Outlander07, the Syrian Christians were thriving from the 5th century to the 15th century. The Portuguese had oppressed the Syrian Christians, this the Syrians partially lost their upper caste status. Until the 19th century the Syrian Christians had a dull path. Later in the 18th they rose again. The Decline of the Nairs were not the reason for the rise of the Saint Thomas Christians, Syrian Christians were very thriving merchants long ago. Then you said "I can't even find a valid reason for the conversion of so-called upper castes at the time being they enjoyed high privileges in the society", that is an idiotic statement, I must say.... Anyways with what we are provided (the sources), the Syrian Christians had an upper caste status..

It is also possible that the Apostle Thomas converted the pre-Nambudiri uppercastes of Malabar (possibly the current Ezhava-Thiyya), before the migration of Nambudiris to Kerala in the 8th century. The Ezhava-Thiyya castes may have been suppressed as a lower caste but the Syrian Christians escaped that due to their connection with the Jews, Arabs, Assyrians and Nestorian merchants and traders....This is just a speculation of mine, it has zero sources. Is the above mentioned dubious or idiotious??(Simonjoust (talk) 13:54, 28 July 2021 (UTC))

Are you a racist?. Can you point out one good reason to introduce someone as an upper-caste?. What you feel so special about these (Nambudiris,Karthakal,Kirayathil Nairs, Ambalavasis, Tamil Brahmins) people?. This is not the place to show your casteist propaganda. I don't know whether there was any caste system that prevailed in the first Chera period. R.C Outlander07@talk 16:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Outlander07, Not being a racist, just told the facts. Anyways can you show atleast one reference which portrays the Syrian Christians as a caste below the Nairs. They are always portrayed as a caste atleast above or same as the Nairs both socially and economically. Even amongst the Nairs only few subgroups were regarded upper caste the rest were considered polluting by even the Syrian Christians (Simonjoust (talk) 02:16, 29 July 2021 (UTC))

You are more than just a POV pusher. I'm not here to exaggerate someone's the superiority or inferiority. I have never said they are below or above Nairs. You have to point out the Nair subcastes that the Syrian Christians observe pollution with. R.C Outlander07@talk 07:41, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Check the source Jeffrey The decline of Nair dominance page no 9, quoted by someone from the church missionary society, forgot the details. The statement was initially there in the article Caste system in Kerala but was removed by someone with a vested interest. There are sources like LAK Iyer with differences in opinion but they clearly mention the Syrian Christians observed pollution to attain some merits within the society and were condemned after the catholic intervention. R.C Outlander07@talk 07:41, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Outlander07, first of all the portion by the CMS (church missionary society) was about the CSI Christians who were converted from lower castes like Ezhava, Nair, Pulayar, Parayar and Malayarayar. Many CSI Christians claimed to have Syrian Christian origin (Only a section of them,the Syrian Anglicans). The CMS missionaries had noted it clearly that many lower castes were converted to Christianity and had joined the CSI Church which is entirely different from the various Syrian Denominations.

"There are sources like LAK Iyer with differences in opinion but they clearly mention the Syrian Christians observed pollution to attain some merits within the society and were condemned after the catholic intervention.", If so please provide that source, I haven't been in contact with that one. And yes the Syrian Christians followed the caste system and untouchability for gaining Social status, if they had allowed other lower castes to be part of them they would also have been considered as a lower caste community. In the article Saint Thomas Syrian Christians it is clearly mentioned that the purity of Syrian Christians were questioned in some localities after the Latin Catholic oppression (Padroado) the Syrians faced(Simonjoust (talk) 08:31, 29 July 2021 (UTC))

You have your own point of view and want to show the same here on Wikipedia. Moreover, the ritual purity was confined to the Hindu communities and has nothing to do with Christian theology or ideology. You are here claiming the brahmin lineage solely on the basis of ritual pollution that they said to have observed. Frankly, no matter what your lineage is, the touch of a Syrian Christian would definitely pollute a brahmin so he should undergo a ritual bath as of his orthodox Hindu priestly culture. As I said above Moplas of Malabar also had a similar status and observed ritual purity, also the mention of Karthas as a separate caste might be a part of your ignorance as they were nothing but a part of Illathu Nair clan and has no superiority over the rest of Nairs. R.C Outlander07@talk 09:18, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Outlander07, yes ofcourse the touch of a Syrian Christian was considered polluting because they were of a different religion and were meat eaters... anyways the touch of a nair is also polluting..The Moplas were considered a lower caste as many Thiyyas and Nairs were converted. I know Karthas are Illathu Nairs granted a specific Title. Anyways Still now I didn't get any reliable source stating the Syrian Christians as a lower caste.

User:Outlander07, Thanks for responding. For the past one year I had been with you virtually lol... Keeping everything aside I wanted to tell you that please don't feel angry on me for any all the stupid and idiotious things I've done here... Anyway I'm going to be blocked in a couple of hours. Sorry for hurting you and disturbing you. Hope you would forgive me. And hey it's just Wikipedia don't get too passionate 😁😁😁....Bye!!(Simonjoust (talk) 11:23, 29 July 2021 (UTC))

Sorry to say Gough Kathleen source p 310-312, LAK Iyyer p 214, Logan p 317, Mohibul Hassan p117-119 states Mopals of Malabar ranked socially and ritually higher than the polluting castes. It doesn't matter where they are now placed under the OBC category by the govt. I'm pretty sure there are sources somewhere to answer you well in the case of Nairs and Syrian Christians,and I've seen that before but forgot their links and book titles, will get back to you soon once it is found. R.C Outlander07@talk 11:57, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Simonjoust, "For the past one year I had been with you virtually" What do you mean? R.C Outlander07@talk 12:14, 29 July 2021 (UTC)