User talk:PAIRdoc

AfD nomination of List of local children's television series (United States)
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WP:FILM September 2011 Newsletter
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Grateful Dead albums
Thanks for creating the Road Trips Volume 4 Number 5 article. It looks great so far. By the way, have you considered writing the article for Europe '72 Volume 2? You're kind of on a hot streak now. (If you reply here I will see what you say.) — Mudwater (Talk) 01:23, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the accolades. I received an email yesterday announcing Road Trips Volume 4 Number 5, so I thought I would run a bit with it. I can't properly complete everything in the article yet though, until I receive the physical disc in the mail next month. I did briefly contemplate writing the article for Europe '72: Vol. 2, but I'm not sure how complete I can be without the actual CD in hand (I didn't order it). Plus, time is always a bit limited, of course. Having claimed these limitations, however, I might just give it a shot, since I do have a couple hours free today. Maybe you can help fill in some of the inevitable deficiencies I create in my wake... Best regards. &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 12:56, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


 * There you go! Its lookin' good.... — Mudwater (Talk) 17:57, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I was able to find enough info on the web to write most of the necessary article details. Since the tracks were derived from so many shows, I came up with a somewhat new format for listing their recording dates. There are certainly other possibilities, and I don't know if this is the ideal one, but it seemed to be logical and readable to me. &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 18:05, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Like you said, the tracks from the album are from a lot of different shows. My initial reaction is that what you've done is the best way to organize the information, so I'd be in favor of leaving it that way.  The only thing I'm not sure of yet would be the fine points of formatting -- that is, is it best to have the concert date and location in italics, as a bullet point, with the songs indented underneath, or what.  Maybe you could try "show preview" with a few of them not in italics, or whatever, and see what you think.  Like I said, I don't have a strong opinion either way, so far anyway, so change it or keep it exactly the same, whatever looks best to you. — Mudwater (Talk) 18:17, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

2011 WikiProject Film coordinator election
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Europe '72 individual concert albums
You probably would have noticed this anyway, but, I've added the track listings for the first three concerts to the main article. I also moved the discussion, from the discography talk page to the main article talk page, Talk:Europe '72: The Complete Recordings, where I'm floating the idea of not having individual articles after all. I could still go either way though. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:20, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the recent updates to the article. No pressure or anything, but feel free to add the track listings for the other two currently released albums if you want to.  One question: Where are you getting the track timings from, and the other information, like the album credits, and the part about "Big Boss Man" being cut and "Casey Jones" being missing from the first show?  (If you reply here I will see what you say.) — Mudwater (Talk) 11:37, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm always up for contributing in any way I can, so I'd be happy to add the track listings for the other albums in my free time (which, admittedly, is a bit hit-or-miss). The track info comes from the backs of The Complete Collection CD cases, copies of which I was able to obtain from a friend who splurged and bought the set. &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 13:35, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, access to the actual CD liner notes. That's awesome!  Also, yes, I'd encourage you to add more track listings as your time and inclination allow.  I will too.  Who knows, maybe other editors will join in the fun. — Mudwater (Talk) 23:23, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Will do (just added Europe '72: Stakladen, Aarhus University, Aarhus, Denmark (4/16/1972)). Thanks! &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 00:54, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The latest updates are looking really good. Now we have all the currently released single albums.  The horizontal rules and the links from the dates in the Concerts section are nice touches.  One question: For the 4/17/72 Copenhagen show, you listed the first set break after "Next Time You See Me" and before "Black-Throated Wind".  Is that what the CD liner notes say?  DeadBase XI has it after "Black-Throated Wind" and before "Casey Jones". — Mudwater (Talk) 16:02, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Good pickup – thanks (I've corrected it)! FYI, the liner notes do NOT have the original set breaks indicated, so I am relying on a variety of sources for this info. Interestingly, some sources (e.g., deadlists.com) indicate that "One More Saturday Night" was an encore for this show (because Weir says, "Bye, bye" at the end of the song), although I'm not sure that is correct. It may have been related to the fact that a portion of this show was broadcast on French television. I have an email out to Blair Jackson and to David Gans asking for their clarification. What does DeadBase XI say (unfortunately, I don't have – and can't afford – a copy)? &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 16:29, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * For the 4/17 show, DeadBase XI lists "One More Saturday Night" the same way it's in the article -- after "Sugaree" and before "Hurts Me Too". — Mudwater (Talk) 16:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Here's something else good. The DeadBase concert lists are available online, at http://www.deadbase.com.  When you get there, click on Search in the upper left.  To look at a set list for an individual show, fill in the concert date in the Date area, in the first line of the search parameters, and click the Submit Query button.  It will list the show, so then just click on the date to see the set list.  :) — Mudwater (Talk) 16:44, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the tip. I have used the DeadBase site intermittently over the years, but wasn't sure if the content was the same as in DeadBase XI (a physical copy goes for $250 - $800 online!). BTW, I just received replies from Blair and David regarding "One More Saturday Night" on 4/17/72. Blair states that the song order is correct as listed on The Complete Collection CD case (same as DeadBase), but that he believes that OMSN was envisioned as the closing song for the TV segment, which might explain Bobby's "Bye, bye" comment (i.e., to be directed at the television audience). I reviewed some video of the broadcast show and at the end of OMSN, there is clearly some rhythmic audience clapping, as if requesting an encore. Presumably, this is in response to the "Bye, bye" comment made during the taping. It appears, though, that songs following OMSN were also televised, so it seems odd that OMSN would be the last song of the broadcast. However, DeadBase indicates the broadcast was in three parts. If true, perhaps OMSN was the last song in one of these broadcasts? Speculation, speculation — oh, well, this might be one of those questions that might go unanswered... &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 17:34, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The DeadBase website was set up by the same people who wrote the books, and the set lists, I'm pretty sure, are exactly the same. And for the 4/17/72 show, the notes at the end of the online set list are exactly the same as in the book: break before the second set to set up for TV broadcast - TV broadcast: "TV from the Tivoli" in 3 parts on 04-17, 08-12, and 08-25 - first "He's Gone"  No doubt there's some content other than the actual set lists that's only in the book, or only online, and of course the material is presented differently.  The ability to search set lists in different ways is a big plus for the web site, I think.  — Mudwater (Talk) 19:05, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I heard back from David Lemieux regarding my question about the placement of "One More Saturday Night" on 4/17/72. He confirms that the Europe '72: The Complete Recordings project team listened to the master tape very carefully and concluded that the placement of OMSN between "Sugaree" and "Hurts Me Too" is indeed correct, although, admittedly, a bit unusual. The rationale given is that because OMSN was a new single at the time, they wanted to promote it on the television broadcast that was being filmed that night. However, only portions of sets one and two were filmed for the broadcast, which explains why OMSN was not in its usual position as show encore (i.e., at the end of set three in this case). It also explains why Bobby said, "Bye, bye" at the end of the song, even though the song was in the middle of set two. Thus, http://www.deadlists.com/ (which is usually quite accurate) is apparently incorrect with respect to this show, due to an erroneous assumption. As an aside, for interest, see also http://www.furthur.net/furthurmorefriday/253-week84. &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 12:19, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Very interesting. Thanks for the follow up! — Mudwater (Talk) 12:44, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Looks like the next six albums are up in the GD online store now. Mysteriously, there's no set list for the Beat-Club show, so far anyway.  You have the liner notes -- is that album on only one disc?  As you probably already know, that was a short concert done for a TV show. "P.S." I'd definitely be in favor of the lead section saying that the box set has 73 discs.  That is a production detail, I admit, but since the number is so large and noteworthy, I really think it belongs in the lead. "P.P.S." Thanks for your continued improvements of the article.  — Mudwater (Talk) 15:27, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't realize that they were up, as there's no mention of it on the main dead.net page. The Beat-Club is a single disc with 10 tracks; DeadBase lists only seven. The tracks are: "Bertha"; "Playing in the Band"; "Mr. Charlie"; "Sugaree"; "One More Saturday Night"; "Playing in the Band" (again); "Beat It On Down the Line"; "Truckin'" > "Drums" > "The Other One". These were recorded for the eventual broadcast on May 27, 1972. Sorry I moved some of your copy around. Clearly, you understood the intent, but, you're right, the total CD count is noteworthy and really should be mentioned in the lead section. If you think the production team's original underestimate is worth mentioning, perhaps that can be mentioned in the Production section, too. If not, leave it out. I'm fine either way, and I don't ever take offense at such constructive edits. I realize that these articles are dynamic works in progress that often undergo continual refinement with the goal of producing as informative and accurate a description as possible. In this light, I welcome (and look forward to) your contributions. We are, without a doubt, working towards a common goal. &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 16:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I feel the same way.  P.S. Re the recently enhanced Production section, I like it a lot. — Mudwater (Talk) 16:44, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I've added the track listings for the April 21 Beat-Club and April 24 Dusseldorf concerts/albums. If you take a look at the April 24 track listing, it appears that the song order has been changed, I'm guessing to avoid breaking up continuous streams of music.  I'm comparing it to DeadBase, and also to Rockin' the Rhein with the Grateful Dead.  I don't fully understand it though, since Rockin' preserves the original song order, and also fits on three discs.  I wonder if any of the songs were shortened for the older release. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I believe the order on Europe '72: Rheinhalle, Dusseldorf, West Germany (4/24/1972) is correct. I think the Rockin' the Rhein with the Grateful Dead liner notes (see http://www.allmusic.com/album/rockin-the-rhein-with-the-grateful-dead-r690711/review) helps unlock the mystery. The fact that "Dark Star" begins set two is also listed in The Complete Recordings liner notes, but there is no mention of a third set. Also, http://www/deadlists.com only lists two sets. So, it is not entirely clear to me if there were two or three sets. But, at least the actual song order has been properly established. &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 03:34, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Very interesting! Thanks! — Mudwater (Talk) 11:06, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello. You'll be interested to know that another editor has removed the album covers from the article. I've started a discussion about that, at Talk:Europe '72: The Complete Recordings. Feel free to join in. Thanks. — Mudwater (Talk) 16:08, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi PAIRdoc. I believe the second batch of six individual concert albums was released today.  Up until yesterday, when I went to store.dead.net and tried to add one of them to my cart, it said it was not available, but it just let me add it now.  Or is there a better way to determine the release date for this batch? — Mudwater (Talk) 21:58, 5 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hey, now. For the first batch, I merely called Rhino and asked the CSR directly what the official release date was. Subsequently, I emailed Dr.Rhino@rhino.com and asked what the release date for the second batch would be. I received a response on October 28, 2011 that it was available. However, I didn't try to verify this by adding an album to my cart, so I can't be sure. Your method sounds reasonable and the timing is close to a month after the first batch release date. Perhaps a call to Rhino next week might be in order. On a different note, it's too bad that the album art got deleted. I'm thinking that individual pages might be appropriate at some point. Be well. &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 22:27, 5 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, and thanks for your recent edits too. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)


 * For whatever it's worth, I bought a copy of Musikhalle, Hamburg, West Germany (4/29/1972), and received it a few days ago. That's what clued me in to the fact that Scott McDougall did the cover art, which he apparently did for all 22 individual albums, according to the online chatter.  I may or may not make some minor changes to the production personnel in the article, based on the liner notes.  One thing is that the article says that the box set, and presumably the individual albums, were produced for release by David Lemieux and Blair Jackson, but the Hamburg album says that it was produced for release by Lemieux.  I don't see Jackson mentioned in the CD credits.  Which is kind of a surprise actually.  Where did you see that he was one of the producers?  (Separately, I've replied to your post on my talk page.) — Mudwater (Talk) 02:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * You are correct about Scott McDougall. I believe I misspoke in the Talk page for the article when discussing keeping the individual album covers in the article. I incorrectly stated that the artwork was created by, rather than inspired by, Stanley Mouse, which was misleading. Scott McDougall indeed created all of the artwork for the set. As far as Blair Jackson is concerned, though, I don't recall suggesting that he was one of the producers. I think he, along with David Lemieux, was listed in the article when it was first created in February. As a side note, I have been adding a notes section to each album for relevant footnotes. I have completed the first seven. Thanks. &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 02:57, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Ha ha, you're right. I asked you why you edited the article to say that Jackson was a producer, when it was me who did it.  I'm going to update that now.  Thanks.  (And for our other thread I've replied again on my talk page.) — Mudwater (Talk) 03:25, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * P.S. Yeah, nifty notes on the individual albums. — Mudwater (Talk) 03:27, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, today certainly marks a happy milestone for the E72TCR article, with the track listings for all 22 concerts now being included. And that's largely because of your valiant efforts. I think it's great, and I wanted to say thanks for all your work on the article. — Mudwater (Talk) 02:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the generous feedback! I believe getting to this point was clearly more of an equal joint effort. Certainly, I could not have done as much as I have been able to do without having you as a "mentor" on WP, and I am grateful for your guidance. It is certainly safe to say that reaching such a "milestone" yields a great deal of personal satisfaction, which I suppose serves as fuel for the next project(s). There is still a bit more left to complete on E72TCR, but "I know we'll get there soon" and "at least I'm enjoying the ride". &mdash; PAIRdoc  &bull;talk&bull; 11:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

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Furthur
Hi PAIRdoc. Since you've been a contributing editor on the Furthur article, I think you'll be interested in a discussion on the article's talk page. I'm proposing that the article be split into three, and other aspects of the article have also been discussed. Feel free to join in, at Talk:Furthur (band) Thanks. — Mudwater (Talk) 13:28, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Hello. I hope you're doing well, and are busy with real life, and not disenchanted with the Wikipedia process.  I'm eager to hear your additional thoughts on the Furthur article. — Mudwater (Talk) 03:37, 25 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Greetings. Just to let you know, I split the Furthur article, creating separate articles for Tamalpais Research Institute and Terrapin Crossroads.  I also restored the Website and Ticketing sections, and started a new talk page thread about that -- Talk:Furthur (band). — Mudwater (Talk) 23:14, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

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