User talk:Paddler22

March 2012
Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. However, please do not add promotional material to articles or other Wikipedia pages, as you did to Battle of Maldon. Advertising and using Wikipedia as a "soapbox" are against Wikipedia policy and not permitted. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thank you. Old Moonraker (talk) 09:55, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Moonraker,

Thankyou for pointing out my error in adding my own books to this artical although they are as relivant as any of the others that are listed.

I have always lived in the Maldon area and studied the history of the local battles so would like to help edit this artical. I lead walks around the Batlefield sites near Maldon and give talks on the subject for both the Battlefields Trust and for the Maldon Turist Information office. My next scedualed battlefield walks/talks are on the 2nd of June as part of the Queens 60th celibration.

The artical is very good as they go but could be improved. Just as an example the tital is Battle of Maldon. This is singlar and makes it sound like the 991 battle was the only one, but that is not the case.

For example:

In the year 917 The Maldon Burh was besieged by the Vikings. It is recorded that the garrison held out till reinforcements arrived. (See the Anglo Saxon Chronicles for 917)

Perhaps this artical should be amended to : Battle of Maldon 991 to clear up this ambiguity? Or have an apendage on the 917 and other recorded local battles.

This artical also apears to take the Northy Island battle site for the 991 battle as fact. It isn‘t there is no proof of this at all. Alternate possible sites for the 991 battle are at Heybridge (Over the Hey Bridge) Langford just west of Heybridge (Over the Lang Ford) and on the land adjacent to Osea Island causeway. After all it depended on whether the Vikings wanted the ease of attack or the best defensive Island as Osea would have been easier to defend. It really depends on whether the poem was written at the time, just after the battle or at a later date. Early poets could and probably did twist anything to fit in with the political scene at the moment and to arrange rhymes.

Is it possible for me to list my suggested changes that could be vetted by yourself or others before inclusion?

Keith Scrivener
 * Thanks for the response; it's always good when experts on a topic contribute to Wikipedia. The policy when your own books provide valuable material is much as you suggest—details here—but I see that the work you added to the article was a novel, and fiction can't be used as a reliable source, in the project's terms.


 * As an aside, don't forget to sign your talk page posts: --~ typed at the end gives a username and timestamp.--Old Moonraker (talk) 16:43, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Old Moonraker, thank you for your helpful comments. I agree that my novel should not be used as a reliable source. But it was added to the (In mordern Fiction) section. None of the entrys in this section could be used as reliable sources. That includes Tolkien, or the long fictionalised account of the 991 Battle of Maldon, described from the Scandinavian side. Nor do the two musical arrangements help with the reliability of the source. My novel ‘Vikings Saxon Holocaust’ in chapter 16 depicts the 991 Battle of Maldon as close to historical truth as I could get. Mine is probably closer to what we know than any already in that section. The fictional part of the novel is that I show the lead up to the 991 battle and what could have happened to the survivors. This novel also includes the earlier Battles of Maldon.

I asked in my earlier text if I should get my edits checked by yourself or another editor before I changed anything, what do you think? Thanks again.--Paddler22 (talk) 10:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)Paddler22
 * Fiction in Wikipedia needs to be notable, with regard to its "reception and significance" (see here), and verifiable. It's easy to verify that your novel exists—I note some book signings in local retailers, for example—but notability is more tricky: a reliable source has to declare the work in question notable. I haven't checked through the "Fiction" section of Battle of Maldon to see if all comply, although perhaps someone should.


 * Your points about including the 917 battle, and your suggestions for improving the article, are better discussed on the article talk page, where all the regular contributors can have a look. All the best.--Old Moonraker (talk) 11:15, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your guidance on editing I will take up your excellent suggestion on using the article talk page to test out my possible alterations. After all we historians all have personal theories and takes on ancient happenings like the Maldon Battles.

The other sources, references and external links are excellent and I go to the same gym as Derek Punchard.

However regarding fiction as ‘notable with regard to its reception and significance’ 10th century historical fiction seems to me as almost impossible to quantify. If we mean is the writer famous or dead that would include Tolkien and C.S Lewis but their fiction is no nearer to the truth than mine. Even worse I cannot see how songs on album just with the name The Battle of Maldon have any notability reception and significance’ or even relevance at all. See below. •	The United Kingdom black metal band Winterfylleth has two songs in their album The Ghost of Heritage (2008) that remembers Maldon Battle (track 2: "The March to Maldon" (03:46) and track 3: "Brithnoth: The Battle of Maldon (991 AD)") The Norwegian / German symphonic metal band Leaves' Eyes has a song called The Battle of Maldon on their 2009 EP, My Destiny Sorry I forgot the signiture Paddler22--Paddler22 (talk) 14:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The article entitled The Battle of Maldon is quite good but could be improved. For example the title ‘The Battle of Maldon’ implies it was the only battle of Maldon, although that is not the case. For example on the second of June 2012 I led a party of Battlefield Trust members around one of the earlier battles of Maldon the 917 battle where the Vikings besieged the Maldon Burh. Incidentally the Maldon warriors held out until help arrived then left the Maldon Burh walls and killed hundreds of the besieging Vikings. (See the Anglo Saxon Chronicles.) Making the title ‘The 991 Battle of Maldon’ would add accuracy. Suggesting the poem description seems to match the Northey island causeway is valid. However this was only suggested in 1925. Before then it was believed to have been else ware and some locals still consider other sites more likely. 4 possible sites for the 991 battle have been suggested: 1/ Heybridge = At the Heybridge causeway near the Fullbridge. / Near the Hey Bridge near Heybridge church. / Near the Benbridge 2/ Langford = over the long ford 3/ the land opposite the Osea Island causeway 4/ the land opposite the ‘original’ Northey Island causeway After leading my tour of the 917 Battle of Maldon site I took the party round Heybridge one of the proposed 991 battle alternative sites. In the afternoon I jointly led a party around the site you describe including crossing the Northey island causeway. (With the kind permission of the National Trust.) This article also states unequivocally that the battle ended in an Anglo-Saxon defeat. But if this is true what did the Vikings win? As the Vikings had plundered several other towns in the south east I think it can be safely assumed this was their reason for attacking Maldon. When they left it is recoded they had barely enough men left to man their Longships. This indicates the Vikings had lost a substantial amount of their men. They had not taken Maldon or any plunder apart from the severed head of the Saxon leader. I would be interested in others opinions on my statements. Paddler22--Paddler22 (talk) 14:46, 3
 * A useful-looking roundup of a dozen or so scholarly opinions appears in Cooper (1993) The Battle of Maldon: Fiction and Fact ISBN 1852850655. A source like this, comparing and balancing the available conjectures, is just the sort of thing that the article could use; where so many theorists have taken the field it would be WP:UNDUE to rely on just one source, even if it did meet the WP reliability requirements. Unfortunately, as a scholarly work you would need to pay a scholarly price for it: about £111 on eBay right now, £113 on Amazon. A local library (local to you in Maldon, that is) might be persuaded to get a copy for you, but I don't hold out  hope for much in my rural backwater. Good luck!


 * I saw your proposed tour advertised somewhere (I was in the town a few weeks ago) and thought about joining it (anonymously!), if it were open to the public. However, I see that you managed to cover quite a bit of ground; as Old Moonraker I may have found it hard going! --Old Moonraker (talk) 10:48, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Old Moonraker, thanks for the tip, I happen to have the Janet Cooper ‘The Battle of Maldon Fiction and fact’ on my desk at this moment. As you say copies are prohibitively expensive but our Maldon backwater has a couple of copies although only one can be borrowed. It’s fascinating especially in the section attempting to decide if the poem is contemporary to the actual 991 battle or not. I also have copies of Stenton’s Anglo Saxon England, Donald Scragg’s The Battle of Maldon 991 Lavelle’s Aethelred 11 Books on Byrhtnoth, and several versions of the poem and on the Vikings. If you come Maldon way again contact me and we can have a discussion about the historic aspects and I would be glad to take you round to the four possible sites of the 991 battle. I live within running distance along the sea wall from Northy Island and also canoe round it so know from first hand how treacherous the waters near the original causeway in Southey creek are. In fact as the high tide level was 8 feet lower in 991 in would have been more so. What do you think about my suggested slight adjustments to the article? Paddler22--Paddler22 (talk) 14:46, 3

Bias towards the poem, rather than history
I couldn't afford Cooper (who could?) but for £4 I've found a copy of Gordon, which should arrive soon. My interest is to separate better the poem and the history (but not the long and the short battles, if indeed there were two) but Gordon may not be the best for this as his field was the literature; the article's still going to rely on you, with your access to Cooper!

As far as I can see WP:SS isn't being followed properly: the page here carries too much overlap from The Battle and I hope to tweak this at the same time.

--Old Moonraker (talk) 13:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Old Moonraker, I also have a copy of The Battle of Maldon edited by E.V.Gordon. When you get your copy, check page 7 re the first battle as mentioned in the book of Ely. Four years before the 991 battle. Glad to see you’re on the case as well. Paddler22--Paddler22 (talk) 14:46, 3