User talk:PaleCloudedWhite/Archive 1

This archive covers the period between December 10th 2010 and January 1st 2013.

Welcome!

Hello, PaleCloudedWhite, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome! Victuallers (talk) 19:29, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
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Hi Again
Thanks for the reply PCW. Its not a very chatty occupation,but its interesting. Do give me a poke if you need help or just someone to notice! I see you are doing plants and Derbyshire places. I take an interest in the latter, but would help with either Victuallers (talk) 21:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Marc Almond - Pearly Spencer
For better or worse, Marc Almond's version of Pearly Spencer changes the original story to give a happy ending. This is a fact. If you consider that a PoV statement, that is *your* PoV!

Injun name
Hi. I noticed your injun name at plant. I am part apache (1/64 or so... but I always list it first). But I look like a pale clouded white. :) PPdd (talk) 19:48, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Is my username an "injun" (is that the preferred spelling?) name? My username comes from a song title (see my page). But I'm happy to be an honorary injun..... :) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 19:55, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I mistook it for a dyslectic version of "pale white cloud". :) PPdd (talk) 20:00, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to have the association, even if mistakenly... :) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:04, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought it was a butterfluy....but I was thinking of cabbage white a la Whites (butterfly)...(introduced here in Oz) :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:04, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I describe it on my user page as almost a butterfly - see Echoes In A Shallow Bay. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:11, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I was about to query anyone's ability to actually decipher Cocteau Twins' lyrics (more accurately sounds) when I realised it was actually the song title... :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:39, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, titles are safer .... :) (Although they are lyrics, and some of them are discernable - see my earnest(!) comments at Talk:Tiny Dynamine) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Rosa wichuraiana/wichurana
Hi, could we discuss the question of which name is correct by email? You can find my email address through my web page. Thanks! Nadiatalent (talk) 15:10, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I've sent you an email. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Great, thanks, I've replied. Nadiatalent (talk) 13:15, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

An invite
Hi PCW, can I tempt you (and your camera) to Derby - we need geographers as well, hope to see you at Derby Museum on the 9th. Sign up for free lunch, tour etc Victuallers (talk) 19:57, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the invitation - it sounds like it could be an interesting and enjoyable day - but unfortunately I'm too busy with work (and various projects) to be able to commit. Thanks again anyway. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 19:38, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Cattistock
Hi, I see you edited that article a while back. Are you familiar with that village? If so, I have a question or two about it. Thank you! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:45, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for the enquiry. I'm afraid I'm only a long-distance admirer of the county of Dorset, rather than a resident, so I might not be able to offer much assistance, particularly if your enquiry relates to recent affairs in the village (I last visited Cattistock in the mid 1980s). Still, although I'll probably be reliant on books and other sources (rather than first-hand experience), I'm happy to try and help if I can... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:16, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I appreciate any help you can give. Do you know if any of the editors here are more familiar with Cattistock? In any case, there's a particular building, or set of buildings (centuries-old farm buildings) that I'm trying to find on Google Maps. I'll send you an email about it shortly. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:24, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Oops, you don't have email activated. What I'm looking for is a something called Holway Manor, where a Reverend John Bishop was born in 1610 or some such. It wasn't really much of a manor, it was just a regular two-story house. I've seen photos before, but I can't find one on the internet to show you. Ever heard of it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've just had a quick scan of my maps of the area, and think that what you're looking for might now be known as Holway Farm, which lies just under a mile NNW of Cattistock, at grid reference ST585011. If you follow the road heading north out of Cattistock, bear left at the first fork, go over the railway, bear right at the next fork, then Holway Farm is about 700 yards further on, down a short track on the right. I think this might be the building you're looking for because on my 1:50000 scale Ordnance Survey map of the area, 'Holway Farm' is written in a font indicating it as a non-Roman antiquity (at least it is on the 1993 version of the map - on the 1979 and 1987 versions it's written in a standard font). If it's not this building, there are 2 other buildings in the immediate vicinity with 'Holway' in their name - North Holway Farm (about 3 fields north of Holway Farm) and West Holway (about 3 fields northwest of Holway Farm). Is that any help? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 10:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * By George, I think you've got it! That first farm appears to be the one. Thank you! Now, a detail question: It looks to me like the house has a "sunken" roof, that is instead of being a peak, it appears that it's like there's a peaked roof on each of the 4 sides, as if they were going to catch rain water in the middle. I don't think my mind is playing tricks, because the shadows are revealing. Was that a common practice in houses of the 17th century? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:10, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think I can help with that last question - architecture isn't a speciality of mine; perhaps there's an Architecture Wikiproject that might help? (Although before you approach specialists with a question, it might be a good idea to get a second opinion on the roof construction; I've also had a look at the farm on GoogleMaps, and although I agree that it seems to have the construction which you describe above, something also doesn't quite seem right - for a start the roof apex doesn't appear to maintain the same height all the way round, and hence the northeast corner of the building doesn't fit together as logic suggests it should.....) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean. The northeast corner seems to be constructed differently from the other three corners. The only pictures I've seen of it were from the west and south sides. Google Maps indicates GHS location as 50.807925,-2.588892. I'll look for an architecure project. Thank you for finding the building! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:03, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I left a question on the architecture talk page. Meanwhile, one more question for you: Do you have any idea what the word "Holway" means? Would that be geographical term? Or merely someone's name? Or maybe both? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:13, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've had a look at the sources which I have to hand, and can't find any explanation for the derivation of "Holway". I'm sure there are books (and probably therefore also online sources) which give derivations of UK placenames - try Google. I did however find a reference in one source to the Bishop family in the 16th and 17th centuries - not in the immediate Cattistock neighbourhood, but elsewhere in West Dorset. You haven't said why you're interested in this topic, so this info is possibly not relevant to your enquiries (and it most probably refers to different Bishops anyway) - but I can quote you the source if you're interested. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 11:12, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank You
Thanks - I do what I can. I think expertise might be stretching it a little - though I admit I do have a special interest in that area. Actually, I can't ever recall having been given a rose before - not even a virtual one - so you have that small honour. Thanks again! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 11:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

re your notes about my edits
Thank you for your note. In this case, I take the position that those consulting this list will often be folks with sine urgency involving these plants. So, I've been including all the common names I have come across, a description of leaves, flowers, habit, distribution, confusibility with less dangerous plants, ... Observations about the folk history, to the extent I've added them, are brief enrichements for the more casual reader.

In short, adapt to likely use, and if that stretches Wiki policies of one sort or another, well, it's a collaborative enterprise. I lease some things for others. Though I do try to catch the typos I can see...

ww

Trade designations
I think I've about conceded that sources are too muddled to hope to reach a consensus on how to mark trade designations (see my latest post at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Plants). As you and I seem the only people really interested in how to mark them, I thought I would say here that although it was originally a joke, actually I agree that Comic Sans looks better than monospaced font, so I changed tdes. See Rosa Iceberg now. I may still delete the template altogether... Peter coxhead (talk) 07:26, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Another possible way of marking trade designations, which I hadn't considered before the most recent postings at WP:Plants' talk page, is to add a 'registered trade mark' symbol (capital letter 'R' within a circle) after the name. Doing such would not only avoid the presentation problem of using a different font, but it would also be (to a certain extent) self-explanatory to readers. Although it wouldn't be following the notational recommendations of the naming authorites, I'm not sure if that would matter too much seeing as the sources don't seem to follow them either. Of course the question of when to use such notation would remain (ie what is a trade designation and what is a cultivar synonym), but I think that that is a different issue to whether or not a notational differentiation for trade designations should be available for use. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:42, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It's true that registered trade marks can't be cultivar names and so must be trade designations, but not all trade designations are registered trade marks... Peter coxhead (talk) 16:57, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh well, I guess that's it - I can't think of any more options. I agree that Comic Sans has been the most satisfactory to me so far (although it still shouts out a bit when the text is highlighted in bold - at least in Windows/Firefox - which is why I had the not-so-bright idea of using the trademark symbol). However, seeing as neither the sources nor other editors present concensus on the matter, it's all rather academic.... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, I didn't mean my previous remark quite so negatively. If sources are clear that a name is a registered trade mark, then the &reg; is a good marker, for example. But when you find that the supposedly definitive Registrar for Rosa seems to have an inconsistent list, it's hard to see that we can sort out a consensus on Wikipedia. Peter coxhead (talk) 03:09, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh well
Yes, you know what they say - "Ruth Is Stranger Than Richard". Someone else might like to use Canute B. Trosted, OffalPunGent or even Major R. Slicker, to unname but three. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Castleton
Hello,

Many thanks! Aren't you quick off the mark? How did you read it so soon after I posted it on Martin Evans' page? Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 23:52, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Martin's page is on my watchlist at the moment, as we've exchanged a few lines recently. I've also just amended the layout of Castleton slightly, to better separate a couple of sections - take a look! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 00:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Great! It looks much neater.  Thank you.  We have common interests: roses, maps and the countryside.  Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 01:23, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hello again!
 * I have put more content into the above article: Three photographs and, also, moved the section "Railway" down the page.
 * Further to your formatting , I could immediately see the improvement, but what actually did you do?... and, does it still have a use?
 * Looking forward to hearing from you. Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 09:50, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

It's an instruction to begin the subsequent text only after there is a clear break on the page, in this case on the right-hand side (if you type "left" instead of "right", it begins the subsequent text after a clear break on the page on the left-hand side.) This enables you to avoid having section headings squashed between images/infoboxes etc. (or, to look at it another way, it enables you to keep an image attached to a particular section, without it overlapping into subsequent ones). Does that help? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 18:15, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It certainly does help. Many thanks, Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 18:36, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Hello! The layout of the photographs is far better... once again, "thank you", and I shall now try to work out exactly how you achieved that. Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 19:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Thought that you might help me on this formatting query. In this article, today, Owain has altered your "clear breaks"... see above... removing a left, and substituting a right with , but I cannot see why, or what it has achieved. Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 18:43, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the 'left' break was removed because it was superfluous - all it did was slightly increase the space between the article's first line and the contents box. And the replacement of the 'right' break with 'style=clear:left' has removed a lot of white space before the article's 'Transport' section. I think both changes are improvements. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:42, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I can see that, on careful comparison this morning; although I had read your reply yesterday evening, and thought it deserved a "fresh" mind in order to give it my full attention. What does the 'style' actually do/mean?  Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 09:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello again Gareth. There are a number of different ways of altering the formatting so that breaks are produced or reduced or eliminated; I wouldn't claim to be familiar with them all, I have just encountered some of them (the template

is another), and sometimes I share what I have found with others. I am no formatting expert! I haven't looked into this particular operation in any detail, but it could be just that the change effected by User:Owain was similar to using, or it may be more precise, I'm not sure. Have you tried consulting User:Owain on the matter? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 14:14, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello PCW. That all makes sense, and I believe that I am picking up more every day thanks to kind fellow users such as yourself.  I did not ask Owain, because I thought he might have taken it as some type of criticism, and I have only recently (last Wednesday) started building a relationship/conversation with him.  On the other hand, I feel I know you quite well now.  Odd, isn't it?  With best regards,  Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 18:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

One year and a thousand edits!
Hi PaleCloudedWhite, congratulations on your stamina in wikipedia! I think your shining example warrants the creation of a special *Walrus & Carpenter award* *For continuing to clean up Wikipedia for more than half a year* You deserve two of them, i.e. and bar. Since you're already one day over the year, I'll give you a roll of ribbon to cut to whatever length you need: The Walrus and the Carpenter Were walking close at hand; They wept like anything to see Such quantities of sand: "If this were only cleared away," They said, "it would be grand!" "If seven maids with seven mops Swept it for half a year, Do you suppose," the Walrus said, "That they could get it clear?"
 * Nadiatalent (talk) 16:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Nadia! A very imaginative award - I am honoured! A very apposite quote for all us editors! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 02:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Section edit:
A question for you. What is the purpose of – i.e. { { n dash } } ? Why not just type - ? Kindest regards, Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 11:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I happened to see this question: see Dash for considerable explanation. Nadiatalent (talk) 17:08, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks Nadia (again!) - a better answer than I would have given, and actually quite educational for myself, too - I'm sure that in my editing, I'm inserting inappropriately-lengthed dashes all over the place! (probably a couple in that last sentence...) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 18:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * ... and thank you from me, Nadiatalent. Your reply has led me on and on, to learn more and more!
 * Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 18:39, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

"Short sutured rice"
... and likewise with your fix to the sedimentary agriculture. It is good to be able to laugh at the bloopers sometimes. JonRichfield found a splendid one about a month ago at phytoliths, where carbon was being sequestered as silica (would be quite a breakthrough, if it were possible). Nadiatalent (talk) 01:43, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, the phytolith example is interesting; it's not a malapropism as such (unlike the 2 corkers in History of plant breeding), but it does demonstrate how quite a minor difference in the language used, can confer a completely different meaning... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:52, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, History of plant breeding doesn't seem to have much more mirth potential, it needs way more time that I can give it. Nadiatalent (talk) 16:23, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Omg, rofl. How touching. Yes, even wigless, so very welcome at this time of year ! Haha. Many thanks for that. Knucklehad-McSpazatron (talk) 17:19, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a great signon! It's tempting to draw a picture of "Short sutured rice: artist's impression", photograph it, and add it to wikipedia ... It would be interesting to see how long it lasted. (Sorry PaleCloudedWhite, we're writing all over your page!) Nadiatalent (talk) 21:49, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit conflict
Thanks for sorting that mess out. I couldn't see properly what was happening, and actually wrote to Lavateraguy, thinking that I'd wiped out his edit! It certainly wasn't giving those neat messages that one sometimes sees about edit conflicts. Nadiatalent (talk) 17:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think there must have been a glitch in the working of the software, as the edit history seems to show that my posting about the Langenscheidt dictionary was successfully uploaded, but then it was wiped out when you tried to respond to it, although from my end I wasn't aware that my posting had successfully loaded, and I got a message telling me I was caught in an edit conflict, so I tried to upload it again, and in so doing erased your response to the posting of mine which I didn't actually think had gone through in the first place, but obviously you had seen in order to try responding to it! Work that one out... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Confused SSSI article
Hi. This is almost certainly a transcription error - well done for spotting it and please do go ahead and fix it. SP-KP (talk) 23:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Gold Hill picture
There are a number of reasons why my picture has more quality than the previous one (taken in bright sunshine but without any black whatsoever). It has to do with the quality of the lens and the camera, the amount of pixels, contrast, sharpness and the improvements while processing the picture in Adobe Photoshop CS5. I hope you are somebody who can be persuaded by arguments. If I can't convince you, check with somebody who knows about photography. No hard feelings though... :-) Thundercloud (talk) 20:31, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Whereas in principal I can always be persuaded by arguments, when considering images my concern is always the appearance of the image, not the means by which it was produced, and although it is true that my monitor is currently not reproducing colours faithfully (leaving my judgement of images a little weakened), I still feel that your pic is too dark. Furthermore I prefer the composition of the pre-existing image - in your pic the houses are more distant and in my view the wall on the right is too dominant. However in a "one versus one" situation such as this, it is probably advisable to canvass a bit of extra opinion, so I shall seek that from some of the other WikiProject Dorset members. Thankyou for your politeness. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:05, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * a picture taken without sunshine is always darker... It represents the amount of light present at the time the picture was taken. For me, the abbey wall is an important part of Gold Hill, but this is only my opinion... :-) Thundercloud (talk) 21:24, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with PCW here. You are right, Thundercloud, the Abbey wall is important, but this is difficult to convey in one image. But, in my lowly instamatic opinion, that second image is "well mingin" (technical term) - do you have one that could replace that? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

(After edit conflict) I also agree that the wall is an important component of Gold Hill, but the effect on the composition in Thundercloud's pic is to draw the eye to a point at the foot of the wall's buttresses (where the lines of the street and the wall converge), whereas in the pic in the sunshine the eye is drawn to the line of houses. Also the pic in the sunshine more closely resembles the image of Gold Hill, and therefore is in my view also preferable on that account. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:41, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not too familiar with Gold Hill myself, so I can't comment on which photo has a better composition. I will say, however, that I think the brighter photo looks better in the page than the darker photo. It's a lot easier to pick out features within the brighter photo. That being said, I think the darker photo is generally superior at full resolution. Could it perhaps be lightened to look better in the thumbnail? Mahahahaneapneap (talk) 22:31, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I have to say that I prefer the top image. It is, to me, more pleasing visually but perhaps more importantly, it is instantly recognisable as Gold Hill whereas the lower image is not. The less seen view from the bottom is an interesting one however and I don't see why an article on Gold Hill can't have both. Two images of Gold Hill in an article about Shaftesbury however is too much.--Ykraps (talk) 08:22, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Ykraps, thanks for your input, however the 2 images being discussed are not currently both displayed on the page (ie it is not a choice between the top and bottom images, but rather between the 2 different versions of the top image, one of which is currently displayed, but the other is the image as uploaded by User:Thundercloud, which is viewable only in a previous saved version of the page). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:35, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * My mistake! I've got to go to work now but will take a look when I get back.--Ykraps (talk) 08:49, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * My aim is to reflect reality and the weather conditions at the given time. I try to discuss the "quality" of the picture (less sunshine=less brightness) and a picture with much more resolution always includes more detail. Thundercloud (talk) 11:05, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I like Thundercloud's image too but not as much, sorry Thundercloud. One reason for using images is to convey additional information (and there is more information in Thundercloud's photograph) but another reason is to attract people to the article and a 'prettier' picture will do that more successfully. I agree with Martinevans123, we could do with a better view from the bottom if you have one.--Ykraps (talk) 17:57, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * PS I understand how disappointing it is to have one of your photos replaced as it happened to me, for reasons I still can't fathom today.

I think the brighter image is the better option for the lead thumbnailed image. I find the wall intrudes a bit too much into Thundercloud's image and is a little bit distracting. There's a collection of images on the commons so I've created a category (which includes Thundercloud's image) and added the link to the article. Barret (talk) 21:12, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I don't regret the replacement of my picture - I've stated my case :-) and as long as there is exchanges of opinions and reasoning, I don't see why my view should overrule everybody's else's. Sorry for my poor English... Thundercloud (talk) 21:35, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * uw Engels is better dan mijn Nederlands--Ykraps (talk) 00:46, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for everyone's contributions on this. If no-one objects, I'll copy this discussion over to the talk pages of the relevant articles, so it's easily visible to future contributors. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:14, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That's fine by me. I'm sure this discussion will be more useful over there. I must say that I am (perhaps even more) disappointed by the current lower image, with it's E-reg car (is that a VW Passat Estate?) so beautifully framed. It looks like a classic image of the 1970s, but was loaded as recently as 2005. Would Thundercloud have something bright enough to replace this I wonder? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:49, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it is a Passat, and - though this is wandering off the subject a little - I wonder how easy it was (or was not) for the owner to get it into position. It's a long time since I last visited Gold Hill, but from memory I cannot recall it being possible for vehicles to access the street from the top, hence the Passat must have come up from the bottom. Although memory tells me that the gradient does ease further down the hill, I still wouldn't want to attempt to turn a vehicle around halfway up it, so the driver must have reversed it up from the bottom (which actually makes sense - who'd want to reverse a hill as steep as that?) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 18:38, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well that's an old(ish) car (registered between 1 August 1987 and 31 July 1988). In my opinion it makes the image look even older. Am surprised that we are allowed to use any image of a car with its plate fully displayed and not pixelated out (like in Google Street view). But surely there are better, and more recent, images available via Commons? For me, cars just don't seem to fit with the classic idea of Shaftesbury, do they? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:28, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I hadn't thought about the privacy issue from the point of view of number plates - I wonder if anyone's ever complained? Actually there are a few other 'looking up' Gold Hill pics on Commons, though in my view they're mostly lacking in one way or another (either too gloomy, or too dominated by the road). There's one brightish pic that's not too bad, though it's got a few tourists in view - don't know whether that contravenes privacy concerns..... There's also one which shows the wall on the left and the church at the top, though the cottages are not presented to best effect..... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:58, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, tourists don't have registration plates (usually), so I think they are fair game. Maybe we should encourage our Dutch friend back to Dorset on an non-Thundercloudy day. He has been very understanding (and his English is quite excellent, as far as I can see). There are already 25 to choose from in Barret's category. These three all seem better: ,, . Martinevans123 (talk) 22:19, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I've now copied this discussion (in slightly amended forms) over to the talk pages of the relevant articles ( [1] + [2] ), so I suggest any further postings be made there. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 00:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Hollyhurst
Hey Pale. Things certainly move quickly when the gears are set in motion. We tried to reform (and inform) the individual more than he probably deserved - I'm sure he got his jollies from having us talk to him as if he was being serious. But that's what WP:AGF is all about. Glad to have you around and participating on the English Wikipedia! If you ever need anything, have any questions, or want an opinion - give me a shout. I'm more than happy to lend a hand. My user page also has a link to email me (which will likely get my attention more rapidly) if you would like to get in touch with me faster than posting on my talk page. Happy editing Pale! --Slazenger  (Contact Me) 01:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

360 Dorset virtual tours
Hi, I understand that you reported a selection of Dorset virtual tours for being 'Spam'! These virtual tours gave viewers a full 360 view of various beautiful and historic areas of Dorset, each tour can take a day to create and 6 months was spent mastering the technique..(Spam really)! (All that is needed to view these is the free quicktime player as used by millions worldwide or a free DevalVr player as downloaded by 7 million viewers).

Had the other gentleman simply emailed me, I would have removed the branding but he simply deleted the links with no questions asked. 'It is always easier to destroy than to create'.

He has also graciously offered to monitor this activity for any further virtual tours that may appear as though a serious criminal offence has occured! Please rest assured that I will not add any further virtual tours and have asked that my account be terminated. I actually live and work in Dorset, pay my local council taxes and contribute to the local community. Prey tell how an individual living in Derbyshire contributes to my fair county? --- Wessex Web Design --- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stvn66 (talk • contribs) 10:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Hello. I assume you have read the posting I placed on Bob Re-born's talk page. In my view I didn't 'report' the addition of the external links, rather I drew them to the attention of another editor who has more experience in these matters than myself, and I asked them for their opinion. You can read for yourself that I asserted that the addition of a 360° tour could be a beneficial addition to an article, but that I felt particular aspects of the link were unacceptable according to Wikipedia's policy on such matters. You may wish to know that having read your response to User:Bob Re-born on his talk page, I have myself been musing as to how it may be possible to add features such as the virtual tour to Wikipedia articles, without contravening policies on spam. I am guessing that the only acceptable solution would be to have the tour embedded within the article, and not as an external link. You should be aware that Wikipedia articles are continually subjected to attempts to add spam, and I hope you can appreciate why it is necessary for editors to keep watch for such additions. A particular problem with external links is that they do not appear on editors' watchlists if and when changes are made to them (unlike when changes are made to actual articles), consequently I hope you can appreciate that even if you were to remove the branding on the virtual web tours, it is unlikely they would be acceptable as external links because it would be more complicated for them to be monitored (which is why I suggested above that the only solution might be for such features to be embedded within the articles). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 11:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

- Hi, That's fine. It is not my loss, only the Wikipedia viewers with this interactive experience rather than mundane images and text, if you want to attract young people good luck with that. It is curious though as to who is more offensive, the virtual tours or the image used by the previous moderator ?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bob_Re-born — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stvn66 (talk • contribs) 11:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha, yes, that's an interesting question. There are some differences that I can see: as far as I am aware, Bob doesn't work for the company which makes "Spam", so there isn't a conflict of interest, plus of course the image doesn't appear on an actual article page here, but rather on the page of a user (much like, say, a Facebook page), so the product in question is not being given the veneer of being approved by anything other than an individual. Perhaps you'd better put the question to User:Bob Re-born himself? Of course it is true that there's still lots of spam attached to many Wikipedia articles, and I understand if you feel somewhat aggrieved for having been targeted whilst other commercial links (or potentially commercial links) still remain (they remain simply because editors haven't got around to removing them, not because editors believe they should be there). I agree with you that it is a loss if Wikipedia readers cannot access a virtual 360° tour of places. If indeed your desire in this matter is solely to aid Wikipedia and its readers, I wonder if it may be feasible for your tour to be made freely available to local government, who may wish (I don't know) to upload it onto their own website/s,and Wikipedia could access it from there? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 12:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The trouble with people who have a conflict of interest (see WP:COI) is that they find it hard to accept when other people delete their links. This is a good example. Stvn66 thinks his/her work is great, I think it is self-promotion. In fact the content itself is not in question it is the fact that the site owner is promoting it that is the main issue here - although I would have deleted the link anyway as I did previously with other image sites such as oldstratforduponavon.com, somerset3d.co.uk, imagesofdorset.org.uk, and 360panoramas.co.uk - the latter being another 360 degree panorama website. In that case the site owner earned a both a permanent user block and a domain blacklisting for his persistent spamming. --Bob Re-born (talk) 14:53, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Section retitled: Cwm Rhondda
I show a posting below that I received last night on my talk page, together with my reply, and the user's response:

Bread of Heaven

I enjoyed your collection of flags at the top of this page.

I know (the English version of) the hymn that includes the line "bread of heaven". In fact, it is right up at the top of my favorites. But please tell me what is the specific connection between Welsh rugby and "bread of heaven".

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 22:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Cwm Rhondda is a very well known Welsh hymn tune. First performed in 1907.  Cwm Rhondda translates as "the Rondda Valley" in English, and more often than not, sung to the words: Guide me, O thou great Redeemer.  Wales rugby union supporters adopted it years ago, although the reason is not understood, apart from the fact that it is an inspiring song which everyone knew (Sundays in chapel) and could keep repeating, and repeating... I think it splendid.


 * It was sung at the funerals of both Princess Diana and the Queen Mother, and at the wedding of Prince William and Catherine Middleton.


 * Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 23:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)


 * It is indeed splendid, both tune and words.  The version I learned (in the United Church of Canada) began Guide me, O thou great Jehovah.


 * The part of the story I did not know was its adoption by the Rugby union. A great anthem, known to everyone in Wales.  I guess it is a natural.  Wanderer57 (talk) 03:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)



I am wondering if you would be kind enough to add below any knowledge you may have on this topic.

Many thanks for your time.

With kindest regards,

Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk)


 * Sorry Gareth, I have no knowledge on these matters. I see that you have contacted a number of editors with regard to this. I know that it's considered courteous to let another editor know if you talk about them elsewhere within Wikipedia, consequently I'm thinking it might be similarly courteous to let Wanderer57 know (if you haven't done so already) that you've multiply transcribed the above discussion. Sincerely, PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 19:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Good morning PCW, Thank you for the info' and the good advice which I shall carry out.
 * Best regards, Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 07:49, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Western Gazette
Thanks for getting in touch. As far as I remember (it was in 2007) the link contained specific info about the Western Gazette & its circulation figures, but I can't find any mention of the Western Gazette on the Northcliffe site now. A suitable source now might be this from the British Newspapers Online site.&mdash; Rod talk 20:37, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've updated the article. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:57, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Poetic justice?
"Quiet industrious editing"? .. surely some mistake.. it's just a smokescreen, I'm afraid, to hide my cunning and devious plan to replace all Wikipedia articles on poets with a selection of some of their finest complete poems - so the reader is not distracted by the details of their sordid and tragic lives - as most of them fully intended! Ah, shucks, now I've just told you. Martinevans123 (talk)
 * Subversion is indeed attractive when carried out so ... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually I am reminded of a quote by Henry James, who was complaining that the romance of the Brontë life story got in the way of appreciating their novels:"'Literature is an objective, a projected result; it is life that is the unconscious, the agitated, the struggling, floundering cause. But the fashion has been [in looking at the Brontes], so to confound the cause with the result that we cease to know, in the presence of such ecstacies, what we have hold of or what we are talking about.'"(from 'The Lesson Of Balzac', in Two Lectures, Boston and New York, 1905, p65, cited in The Brontë Myth, Miller L., Vintage, 2002, p63) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)


 * How intensely apposite that Henry James quote is. One inescapably re-invents the life of one's literary heroes in terms of the work they produced - Dylan lighting that green fuse] in lowly Cwmdonkin Drive, Bill dreaming of the The London Fog as he lies with a shattered foot in a field in Renfrew, Ontario. Such are perils of poetry. Martinevans123 (talk) 00:06, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, poetry has - perhaps more than any other art form - the ability to romanticise the tragic aspects of life. But I bet most poets who have become venerated for the intensity of their life stories, probably in fact led quite humdrum lives. I'm reminded of another quote, this time by the singer Elizabeth Fraser when she was interviewed in a music magazine; if I remember rightly, the interviewer was fishing for evidence that Fraser led a somehow other-worldly (or "ethereal") existence, which hence would explain Fraser's other-worldly singing style, but Fraser replied by saying something like, "some days all I do is go to the local shop to buy a tin of baked beans".... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 01:26, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


 * ouch!! Martinevans123 (talk) 11:25, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha, yes, I was actually thinking about The Bard, although I think he can be forgiven, seeing as "in nontechnical usage the terms may be synonymous"! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 19:39, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Will Shakespeare walks into the local Garden Centre. Manager: "Oi you, y'bard!" Martinevans123 (talk) 19:48, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Obviously he was heading for the shrubs with a poetic youth. You know what they say, "a bard in the hand....." PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:15, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * omg. "sob". But while you're waiting.. here's a site that should obviously be linked to his wiki article . Martinevans123 (talk) 20:26, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * And how about.. Dibber for Dibber? or even Much Ado About Notting? and that old favourite.. The Merchant of Fences? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:04, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha, that insults generator is fun, and could be handy - I think some of them have a Knucklehead McSpazatron kind of feel about them, don't you think? Whilst playing with plays, don't forget  Vitis Andronicus and Julius Caesar by The Daffodils.... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:39, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha yes. As opposed to that well-known drunken cockney play Titus (a Ducks Arse) Andronicus? ... but Julius Caesar by The Daffodils ...? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a passionate tale of love at first sight.... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:39, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Coriolupins? Troilus and Watercress? Hamlettuce?? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:10, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * We must have covered (butchered) most of them by now, haha. The sequel to Julius Caesar by The Daffodils involves Julius doing more than just looking, and instead getting a bit more 'hands-on'; it's called Julius Caesdar by The Melons (Oh dear, I seem to be descending into smut...) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:56, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Gahw-on Julius, mah son!! All's Welly That Ends Welly? The Comedy of Marrows? The Compest? .. the list is endless ... (but, alas, not painless) Martinevans123 (talk) 00:07, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm a serious editor, you know (haha), but I think I'd join the queue to see The Comedy of Marrows, as I'm sure it would induce more "rofl" (my version) than much of what passes for comedy on Radio 4..... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 00:32, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I can often wet myself over a good stand-up squash. But fortunately the doctor says this is just a common sexual perversion. Phew. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:22, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you mean "the doctor" or "" (adopt fruity bass-baritone and an overly-long scarf)? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:29, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, now you mention it, his "surgery" was in this really old Police Phone Box thing. Full of used truncheons and other paraphenalia. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I hope you were mindful of where he placed his ... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:40, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It felt more like a Sonic shower !! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:49, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Or a sonic boom....? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * As You Fork It perhaps? or maybe Love's Lugumes Lost? or even The Taming of the Shrub? fnaar, fnarr. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:41, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * King Leek! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:50, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, where would this thread be without Sweet William Shakespeare? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:30, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * indeed. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:36, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Just spotted "That's your actual French" edit summary. Hahahahaha! very apposite, n'est ce pas? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:05, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I particularly like to picture KW adlibbing lines like "Lau your luppers on the strillers bona" and knowing as he did so that most listeners hadn't a clue what he was on about, yet laughing anyway. subversive, as in a way the joke was really on those listeners.... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:00, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * All's Bona That Ends Bona. Oooooo, nice. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Dorset
Hi PCW, What are the changes you want to make to geography section and do you want to make them before I request a second review? --Ykraps (talk) 11:35, 24 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Ykraps, these are the lines which I think might need a bit of attention:


 * "Both Portland and Purbeck stone are of national importance" - doesn't state in exactly what way they're important, presumably as valued building stones, but a reader could interpret it as meaning they're important in other ways (eg to the country's balance of payments etc)
 * "Almost every type of rock present from the early Jurassic to the mid-Tertiary period can be found within the county." A few things not right with this one. The sentence is still a bit ambiguous in implying Jurassic is a type of rock, rather than a period of time. "almost every type of rock" is probably referring to the rocks of that age found within the UK, but I think a reader would interpret it as referring to a global perspective. "Tertiary" is now a deprecated term.
 * "Dorset has a number of limestone downland ridges" My understanding of the term is that "downland" strictly refers to the habitat of permanent grazing land sometimes found on chalk hills, but doesn't refer to the actual hills themselves (the confusion probably arises from the fact that the hills are usually called "downs" even if they are completely covered in arable fields and don't have any downland pasture on them at all)
 * "Between the areas of downland are large, wide clay vales" This is a bit of an overgeneralisation I think, although I can see what it's trying to say. The main large vales are the Blackmore Vale in the north and the combined valleys of the Frome and Piddle between Dorchester and Poole. The Blackmore Vale is actually composed of broad bands of clays divided by narrower bands of limestones, and of course strictly it isn't actually the downs of the county. The valleys of the Frome and Piddle contain some clay but my understanding is that they are mostly a mix of sands and gravels overlain by alluvial deposits from the rivers.
 * "These thin soils" - I'd like to think of a way to phrase this which uses a term other than "thin" that is less conducive to being misconstrued
 * "more chaotically-arranged strata" - This is my own doing, as I inserted this phrase! - but I'd like to come up with something a bit more precise (there are a few geological faults in the west of the county, but I haven't yet got to grips with exactly where they are or how they intersect etc)
 * "The coast documents the entire Mesozoic era, from Triassic to Cretaceous" - it isn't obvious from the way it's worded in the article, but this refers to the World Heritage Site as a whole (ie including east Devon), and I think is not strictly accurate from a Dorset perspective (I'm fairly certain that the oldest rocks outcropping in Dorset date from the early Jurassic, not the Triassic)
 * "the chalk stacks known as Old Harry Rocks, formed over 65 million years ago" - this is a bit ambiguous/misleading; the of which the stacks are composed was formed over 65 million years ago, as was all the chalk in Dorset, but the actual shape of the stacks themselves was carved out much more recently (ie at the same time as the sea broke through between Purbeck and the Isle of Wight at the end of the last Ice Age)
 * They're the main ones I can see on a quick perusal. Apologies if it seems as if I'm coming in at the last minute with a load of criticisms, but as I've mentioned before I think, I've been trying myself to get to grips with the geology of the county recently, and I've been learning as I go along. Also I prioritised working on the Geography article, seeing as I did say I'd do that quite a while back on the Geology article's talk page! Plus, I'm aware that in order to make changes as I suggest above, we'll possibly need to find some new citations. (I say "we" deliberately, because you're very welcome to help if you wish - I've noticed that you're very good at tracking down references!) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:47, 25 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, I see. I can help with the first one; although they are valued building materials as you say, the main reason is that many of the nation's historic and important buildings are constructed from them. They are therefore, of great national importance for restoration work.
 * I would advise copying the section to a user space or sandbox where we can work on it without compromising what we already have. My experience is that it is much harder to reference something retrospectively so it pays to preserve any existing references.--Ykraps (talk) 21:18, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I've copied both the geography section and the points which need addressing to here, so it's all in one place and hopefully easy to work on. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 19:22, 26 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It appears that the issues with this section have been resolved. Would you like to transfer the contents of your sandbox to the Dorset article?--Ykraps (talk) 11:58, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 14:34, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've requested a copy edit for the Dorset article here.--Ykraps (talk) 17:53, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Page move
Hello SilkTork. I noticed your recent move of Purbeck (district) to Purbeck District. I haven't much experience of page moves, and have a technical question regarding the process involved: why was it first necessary to delete Purbeck District? I've tried studying the history, but can't work out exactly what has been deleted (as there is still a Purbeck District). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:59, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * When a page has been redirected more than once, it needs to be deleted before the name can be used again.
 * The page history was:

(del/undel) (diff) 11:54, 6 August 2007. . Chris j wood (talk | contribs | block) (32 bytes) (←Redirected page to Purbeck (district)) (del/undel) (diff) 11:04, 18 May 2007. . HeartofaDog (talk | contribs | block) (21 bytes) (create redirect)
 * I hope that helps, if not, let me know and I'll try to be clearer.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  21:10, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Bumblebee orchid
Your wikichortle idea is an excellent one! It is a bit difficult to laugh at the absurdity in the context of an edit war, but real people surely couldn't make up some of this material, at least not if their brain is engaged. Nadiatalent (talk) 21:42, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Horticulture and Gardening
Just a quick note to thank you for joining the project. Northamerica1000(talk) 19:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I'm always a bit short of editing time, but I hope I can be of at least some assistance. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:02, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been working to invigorate the project, so any and all help is appreciated! Northamerica1000(talk) 11:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Plants Collaboration of the month
I'm attempting to revive the Plant article COTM, and since you're a member of WikiProject Plants, you're being notified about this hopeful revival. Please feel free to propose articles for collaboration, and thanks for your consideration! Northamerica1000(talk) 13:42, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikichortle: non-decorative dried rose
Indeed, you got to the heart of the problem there! Nadiatalent (talk) 20:48, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm glad that amused you! Such things are somehow funnier when the joke is shared! One wonders if that editor felt they just to use that image .... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:13, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Somewhere I'm sure that I've seen advice to dry only red roses, and that white one demonstrates the problem. The poor shrivelled thing hanging there is so undignified. It's amazing what can be amusing, some times! Nadiatalent (talk) 21:31, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think sometimes it's the juxtaposition of the edit and the edit summary that creates the mirth potential, or it can even be just the edit summary itself - edit summaries amuse me on a regular basis (I noticed you gave a good one a while back at Petiole - "Quibble from someone whose rhubarb routinely goes to seed"....) There must be a Wikipedia special page devoted to the choicest edit summaries.... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:04, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh no, not rhubarb! ROTFL. Nadiatalent (talk)

New collaborations
from: Northamerica1000(talk) 01:00, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Lauraceae
Hi PCW, about ruthlessly reverting those additions: I came to much the same decision last night, but didn't have a lot of time, so I reverted the last batch on Neocinnamomum. By this morning it was all back there, with a sprinkling of citations. I've just been laboriously arguing various points there. I'm starting to wonder if the person involved is a child, perhaps willing to learn (hence the added citations in response to "unsourced" messages) ... This IP is also active right now. Mostly, I just don't have enough time to do very much of this cleanup, but hope to be more thorough as time permits (in between the French translation that you know about ... 55 pages! Google Translate is amusing, it turns rose prickles into cattle prods). Nadiatalent (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Amazing things, people! When you cleaned up that copyvio from ZipCodeZoo that has been on Neocinnamomum from the very beginning, did you see what that editor has been doing lately? Editor: Saga City has been combatting some amazing material. Nadiatalent (talk) 14:01, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That editor's editing all seems to follow the same pattern (chunks of copyvio material, quite garbled English, an obsession with Lauraceae ecology etc.) The poor grammar makes it more difficult to assess its worth - is it stating something true and valueable that's hidden underneath the clumsy language, or is it just a muddled and repeated assertion of a statement already deleted from elsewhere etc.? I confess I can't find the Saga City thread you're referring to; I've read your comment on SC's talk page, but can't find the edits/article in question - but I am mightily intrigued! Good to know that you're finding time to wrestle with Google Translate; an occupational hazard of mine is I keep snagging and scratching my clothes and hands on all these 'cattle prods'! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:33, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been offline quite a bit lately, thus the late response. Your poetical appreciation might be piqued by the edits of this original-thinking person, some of which have been emended by Saga City. There's something about "umlouts" in there; not sure what kind of person those would be. Sorry to hear about the cattle prods; the blackberry seedlings that you helped me to save seem to be cattle-prod free like their mother, which would be a good beginning, but the real test will be whether their fruit taste any better than the mother plant's. In this cold climate the hardy blackberry cultivars are very sour. P.S. the recent messages on our talk pages are quite poetic too! Nadiatalent (talk) 19:54, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Martinevans123 very recently made me aware of this interesting page, which would be a perfectly apposite riposte to the remarkable sentiment in the "facts entered. Do not delete unless you can disprove that these are false!" edit summary. (Another riposte would be to pedantically point out that the double negative resulting from combining "disprove" with "false" actually makes the edit summary have a completely different meaning from the one presumably intended). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:48, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a very interesting page. The title of the page would be a nice name for a small pet animal, perhaps a hedgehog or a small rotund cat. For an imaginary pet it would be an even better name. Nadiatalent (talk) 17:29, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Biodiversity of Madagascar
Hi, you are a botanic, I am not botanic, besides, my English language is not fluent. I wish you to create a Biodiversity of Madagascar article, because Madagascar botany is very important too, and it is a very forget botanical area too. You can do it. I'm sure, please, do it, because these Islands are very important ecologically and they are a very forget area. I'm sure that if you are busy, or you think is too hard for you, missis Nadietalent can help you from scratch. He is a very hardworker and clever one, and you have the idea of an article as a whole, just not dripping and spurring, please please please, do Biodiversity of Madagascar. You can do this article from scratch. Nadietalent maybe could not do big articles, althought she has the talent. Can You help her, please?

My poor grammar makes it more difficult to assess its worth - is it stating something true and valueable that's hidden underneath the clumsy language, or is it just a muddled and repeated assertion of a statement already deleted from elsewhere. Thank you very much.

Estimado caballero, solicito la colaboración de usted, asi como su ayuda desinteresada en la creación del articulo arriba mencionado, de gran importancia en un area tan importante a nivel medioambiental como tan dejada de la mano de dios, dicha tarea, podría realizarla usted mismo o compartirla con la distinguida señorita Nadietalent, que ha demostrado su valía y extraordinaria pericia llevando a cabo innumero trabajo en condiciones de extrema dureza descifrando mi alcorzada y esbarizada labor. No dudo de su gran pericia en la labor y que con su habitual tono animoso y entregado prestara la atención debida y "from scratch" concluira tal redacción a un resultado profesional. Muchas gracias por su atención, quedo a la espera de su contestación. User:Curritocurrito|Curritocurrito]] (talk) 06:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at User talk:Alchymist3
You are invited to join the discussion at User talk:Alchymist3. Nadiatalent (talk) 18:49, 11 May 2012 (UTC) Nadiatalent (talk) 18:49, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

wildlife-biodiversity in Madagascar again

 * Hi Curritocurrito, PaleCloudedWhite and I are very busy people in real life, and although we are trying hard to correct wikipedia, we cannot cope with all the poor-quality material that is already in place. I feel quite strongly that it is not appropriate to create new articles until the existing ones have reached a high standard. I agree that the biodiversity of Madagascar is an extremely important topic. I have created a redirect to the page Wildlife of Madagascar. Nadiatalent (talk) 14:15, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, mister, Nadiatalent is very busy, but she love to work with Lauraceae. Madagascar is plenty of Lauraceae too. Can you create this article, that Nadietalent thinks too is an extremely important topic. Can you create the article from scratch? Really in real life Nadietalent is a very very busy people and cannot do too much in Wikipedia, fortunatelly she can stay. Can you looking for valuable people for this project, please. Madagascar is a very ignored area with very interesting issues and evolution. I am interested too in African biodiversity, may you can find people for these areas so interesting and important. how many botanical volunteers have Wikipedia? Where can I find them? who are more interested in make information available to college students? I just know you, but I think that you are a person very involved with Wikipedia and with much work done. Congratulations I hope to find more people like you.83.44.49.151 (talk) 10:02, 12 May 2012 (UTC) Please, can you create this article about biodiversity, and other about Biodiversity in African areas and regions? Of course I am Curritocurrito (talk) 10:06, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello Curritocurrito. Thankyou for your sincere and openhearted invitation. I confess it is difficult to resist when you implore so earnestly, and I agree that the subject matters which you mention are indeed important. In spirit I would like to assist, but any help I could give is certain to be quite restricted, due to both my shortage of time and lack of expertise in the area. Are you able to explain why coverage of this subject is so important to you? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

"The biodiversity of New Caledonia is of exceptional biological and paleoecological interest. It is frequently referred to as a biodiversity hotspot. The country is a large South Pacific archipelago with a total land area of more than 18000 km2. The terrain includes a variety of reefs, atolls, small islands, and a variety of topographical and edaphic regions on the largest island, all of which promote the development of unusually concentrated biodiversity. The region's climate is oceanic and [[Tropics|tropical"
 * Hi, this is a case similar to this:

I am from Spain and my mother language is not English language. Many country side areas, and Natural areas and Living beings are in Countries where population cannot collaborate with Wikipedia, but their Natural World and its highly economically valuable species are very important too in the human knowledge and developtment of the mankind. People should have information because these matters are important, not just a curiosity only. This unknow world is from Poles to ecuator, in unoccupied oceanic areas closely to Europe, in Deserts as Sahara, or whatever. But to me the main aim is to gather the abundant information disperse about living communities and living beings that have existed for millions of years because they are disappearing and in 20 years they will are not longer exist. Curritocurrito (talk) 11:42, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

notable people of Chesterfield
Hi, I am desperatly trying to add this (* Tom Rickels, singer and songwriter.       )but you keep deleting what I write; I mean, I give eight sources from four different sites and you delete my contribution while half of the "notable peoples" on this page don't even have one source ... why ? As we can see on youtube, this guy sings (very well) so he is a singer, he creates his own songs so he is a songwriter. On each of the four sites he is named Tom Rickels so I guess it is his true name and, on the four sites also, it is written that he lives in Chesterfield. On his Facebook and Tweeter we can see hundreds of very personnal photos so they are his real accounts. I don't know what you need more... thank you for being so consciencious and, by doing this, protecting our information right. Looking forward to your reply... kanguolai
 * Hello Kanguolai, thanks for your enquiry. Wikipedia has guidelines on how it functions, and one of the generally accepted guidelines is that a subject's inclusion on Wikipedia is dependant upon a certain amount of 'notability' having been achieved. This 'notability' is measured by whether or not the subject has received coverage in what are termed 'reliable secondary sources' (see WP:RS). In my view the sources which you have provided so far (a blog, Facebook and Twitter) do not meet the required criteria, hence the removal of your addition. Please note that I personally have only removed your addition once - the previous times it was removed by different editors, who presumably agree with my assessment of the sources. If you are able to find sources which meet the standards advised at WP:RS, editors should not remove your content. Also please note that, although it would be better if the other people on the "notable peoples" list had sources backing their inclusion, there are 2 reasons (that I can think of) why their entries have not been removed:
 * 1) They all have their own Wikipedia articles (or are linked to one)
 * 2) They are not new additions, hence they are not being scrutinised so carefully by editors who are watching the Chesterfield page


 * Although these 2 reasons are not sufficient to justify the lack of sources of the other entries, they may help explain why it seems your addition has been singled out.


 * I hope that is helpful; please ask if you have any further questions. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 00:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi PaleCloudedWhite, Thanks for having taken the time to explain me and given me those advices.--Kanguolai (talk) 15:07, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Stability of classification systems
You asked "I suppose it would be hoping too much to think that the introduction of DNA analysis has resulted / will result in greater agreement?". As it's not really to do with Camassia, I thought it best to reply here.

That's a good question. I'm only a reader of this stuff, not a professional botanist, but I think that the sheer number of angiosperm researchers involved in the APG and their status (see Angiosperm Phylogeny Group) has tended to silence critics. But these do exist. For example, in the British Isles, the "definitive" flora is by Clive Stace and in the latest edition he has deliberately decided not to follow some parts of the APG3 system, so those of us who use his book have to learn his minor variations on APG3. Some bulb specialists are unwilling to sink as many families into the large Asparagaceae as APG3 does; I've seen relatively recent stuff coming out of Kew that still uses Hyacinthaceae.

The issues are not the actual phylogeny but what this implies for classifications, e.g. whether paraphyletic groups are ok (Stace says they are, APG3 says not), and how differentiated a taxon needs to be to call it a family versus a subfamily, etc. (APG3 people seem to be "lumpers", others are "splitters", if you know that terminology). Peter coxhead (talk) 09:04, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * This is very interesting. I'm surprised that some authorities such as Clive Stace are of the view that paraphyletic groups are ok, as that seems to be making their classification system based less on actual relationships (and therefore more 'artificial'), but I guess they have their reasons. Having looked at Angiosperm Phylogeny Group, what is of interest to me personally is my realisation of the importance of Mike Fay in the world of botany; I knew him when I worked as a gardener at Kew (20-odd years ago), but had no real notion then of what he did - he was just one of the science lab workers who would chat to me when I manned the Jodrell Gate on weekend duty. It's continuously surprising what editing Wikipedia can open your eyes to... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 10:27, 17 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The problem with rejecting paraphyletic groups is that this can lead to a lot of splitting. For example, the evidence is that the Cactaceae are nested inside the old Portulacaceae. So to keep Portulacaceae monophyletic, it had to be split (as noted in the article), and APG3's Portulacaceae actually contains only one genus. Stace's view seems to be that we should not split up a well-defined and recognizable family just because one group has "evolved away" from the rest.


 * As you say, it's surprising what cross-connections emerge from Wikipedia editing. I'm a regular at the Birmingham Botanical Gardens and I know some of the horticultural staff there who started at Kew. (The BBG page is another one on my to-do list...) Peter coxhead (talk) 14:25, 17 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm puzzled why rejecting paraphyletic groups would necessarily lead to more splitting. In fact I would have thought it would lead in the opposite direction - more "lumping" (as indeed you refer above to the non-paraphyletic APG3's lumping tendency). Why did Portulacaceae have to be split in order to keep it monophyletic? Why is it not the case that if Cactaceae is nested within Portulacaceae, the latter is just expanded to include the former? (I'm probably missing something very fundamental here and hence asking a dumb question, so please excuse me on that!) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:20, 17 May 2012 (UTC),


 * You are of course quite right that one solution is to include Cactaceae in a very broad Portulacaceae, perhaps as a subfamily. However, the cacti are a very distinctive group with clear apomorphies, e.g. only cacti have areoles. I've been working on Cactus fairly intensively recently. When you write about a group of organisms, you have to make generalizations. If you create taxa which are too large and too diverse, then they aren't useful – they don't have features which identify them, there aren't many generalizations you can make about them, you can't accurately predict the features of a member of the taxon. A broad Portulacaceae including cacti would have very few shared features.
 * This is the dilemma of purely phylogenetic classifications which use only evolutionary history and disregard similarities. As another example, what can you say about the current family Asparagaceae apart from listing its genera? Not a lot; it's just too diverse. But in such cases if you don't lump into one diverse taxon you have to split into poorly differentiated ones. Just look at how some of the genera like Hosta or Polygonatum have been moved around before finding their way to Asparagaceae subfamilies. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:15, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean, it is a bit of a dilemma, although it doesn't seem right to me to demote the biological facts of connection to a place below the interests of making classification more acceptable from a very human point of view. As humans we like to categorise and classify as a way of making sense of the world, but maybe a different approach is to just accept that some living things may look rather different but are actually closely related (and the converse which is that just because things look similar, it doesn't mean that they're connected). I used to work in a private garden where I grew quite a few Dahlias to provide late season colour and cut flowers for the house, and one year the owner of the house saw me lifting the tubers and commented that they must be related to potatoes. I corrected him, and of course for anyone interested in plants and botany his mistake seems absurd, but he was in a way only doing a version of a non-phylogenetic approach to relationships - picking on an identifiable feature and lumping it with something else with apparently the same feature. Of course this is only an analogy which I use in the interests of posing a question, and I accept that the realities of the issue are rather more complex. Going back to the original dilemma, I think that creating subfamilies perhaps goes some way towards satisfying both approaches (as I guess is indeed what has happened in some instances); the taxonomic grouping is maintained (or perhaps largely so), but at a different taxonomic rank. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 10:19, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Ocotea
I want to thank you by your help in Ocotea. I hope you help me again in other articles. I apologize by my bad english. You are welcome. I'm very interested in botany, I hope you can put more information in these species that have great economic value, besides to be very beautiful and important for biodiversity (I am a fan of Kew gardens). I would like, when you have time, your help for Mascarene Islands biodiversity. I am really interested in your help, please, check it. Thank you very much by your help.Curritocurrito (talk) 08:19, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Why do you wipe out about columbiformes??? Curritocurrito (talk) 10:12, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The information which you added needs to be introduced in a different way, one which is more akin to an entry in an encyclopaedia. I will assist you as and when I have time, but your additions as they stand are not helpful, for reasons I explained on your talk page. English is not your first language, so please work with people for whom it is. Set up a sandbox for yourself, and add the information to that for the time being. Thankyou. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 10:33, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I thank you by your help again. The article is better with your help and Nadiatalent help. I hope you help me with other articles. You know that I write in Lauraceae but really I am interested in information about each animal or vegetal species in forgotten countries of which there are little information. You are welcome Curritocurrito (talk) 11:56, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Knowledge of Dipterocarpaceae
Hello, How are you? I need your help. I ask you if you could enlarge Dipterocarpaceae making better known this group of trees in Wikipedia, adding links to "Dipterocarpaceae" and information about  "Dipterocarpaceae" existence on topics as trees articles in tropical articles or botanical or biodiversity articles. Do you know people that could be interested about Dipterocarpaceae article? They are welcome too. Thank you very much. Curritocurrito (talk) 11:15, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Mister PCL thank you very much
Hello, How are you? I need your help. I thank you your help in the articles and I hope you help me again in future. I ask you: Can you find more people willing writing in tropical trees, genera and families? I ask you if you could enlarge some articles making better known this group of trees in Wikipedia, adding links to genera and families and writing information and asking people if they are interested in writing about topics as tropical trees articles, tropical forest articles or botanical or biodiversity articles. Do you know Wikipedia forums that could be interested about these type of articles? They are welcome too. I thank you very much. Curritocurrito (talk) 11:33, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Horticulture and Gardening Project COTM
— Northamerica1000(talk) 00:25, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Gertrude Jekyll
I've expanded the article, merged all the information from the Gertrude Jekyll's Garden, Upton Grey Manor House article into it, added more inline citations and four more reliable sources that are comprised of significant coverage. This article definitely has the potential to be further improved to meet Good article or Featured article standards. Northamerica1000(talk) 18:28, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Damping off
The article has been expanded and improved. I've added five new reliable sources that can be used to further expand the article and to add more inline citations. This is another article with potential to become a Good or Featured article. Northamerica1000(talk) 19:05, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input. You're very prolific! I've removed one of the new images, as although it illustrates a plant infected by one of the causal agents of damping off, it doesn't actually illustrate symptoms of damping off itself, which is specifically a condition of young seedlings (the causal agents of damping off may produce other symptoms on older plants). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:43, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Rose
Hello. You reverted my edit to the section on culinary uses in the Rose article. Your edit summary said this was because I used an "inappropriate primary reference", but you replaced it with text with no reference and I feel the replacement text is less universally accurate and gives a false impression. I have brought this up on the talk page and would appreciate it if you would read it.Anonymous watcher (talk) 21:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Tropical Families and tropical genera, I thank you your collaboration.
Hi, I thank you your help in tropical flora. I hope your help again in the future. Best regards Curritocurrito (talk) 09:23, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Talkback
 elektrik SHOOS  (talk) 07:34, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you hear about that terrible nightclub fire tragedy in Pamplona? The building did not have enough fire exits and many people were trapped or crushed. The moral of the story – "don’t put all your Basques in one exit." Apologies. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:00, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Ooh, you and your black humour, haha! Some people might disapprove of such jokes of course, but I know that your sympathies are always with the people in difficulty, and when humour is combined with sympathy, the end result is a benign release in my view. Others will disagree I'm sure! On the particular issue which I raised at ANI, I didn't find it easy to decide on the very best course of action, and I felt I didn't have much time - not if the situation was indeed serious. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 11:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought your Talk Page was a more suitable place for any attempt at an appallingly contrived spoonerism. Last time at ANI, if you remember, my comment about allowing an anonymous editor "enough rope" before "giving him a block" was misinterpeted as poking fun at the potential suicide bidder (instead of at wiki policy as intended). Since then we've also seen another anon threat involving deadly nightshade from an ip in South Wales. As I heard no more about that one, I assume it was a hoax and/or was dealt with satisfactorily. I was just amazed at your detective skills in the field of the Catalan Euskara language. I think the main part of the problem is that most apparent suicide bids will be made just by mindless vandals (even if presented in the lyrics of a song). Martinevans123 (talk) 11:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * My detective skills aren't as great as you might imagine - myself and several other editors (particularly at WP:Plants) have had quite a bit of trouble with that user, and I'm familiar with their editing history. In fact this probably heightened my fear that they were about to take their own life, as a sockpuppet investigation about them has just been opened, together with quite a bit of evidence against them and their editing style, and logic would suggest that as a result they may be feeling persecuted. Yes I do recall the "enough rope" thread - it seemed quite harmless to me, but then as I stated above, it depends if one knows where someone's sympathies lie.... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 11:54, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I've only just noticed your extra linking of Basque - so you got the stockings joke in after all! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:12, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit conflict? certainly not..
"Great minds" etc., etc., but two edits, at exactly the same time (23:09)! How is that possible? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:43, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps JW has SPECIAL POWERS that enable him to cut right through edit conflicts (though I notice that only your edit actually performed any change...) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I refuse to be photographed (for legal reasons). Yes, he has special transcendental powers. Or so I've been told. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Darzet
Hi PCW, Barret and I are currently checking the references in the Dorset article in preperation for FAN. I can't seem to get hold of a copy of Wightman's book but Barret seems to think those references were added by you. Do you still have the book and would you be willing to give it a second look to ensure there is no plagiarism and that the source fully supports the sentences in the article? Best regards--Ykraps (talk) 07:31, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was me who added those refs - guilty as charged. It's a shame that you can't get hold of a copy, as it's a very readable overview of the county, even if it is a bit dated now. I'll have another look at it and at the sentences I added. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:10, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * That would be great and very much appreciated.--Ykraps (talk) 18:34, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I've adjusted a couple of sentences, plus I've also added to the page numbers of one of the citations - you may wish to check that I've abbreviated/formatted the ref properly. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:04, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the time to do that. I'll continue to look out for his book, as you consider it a worthwhile read. Regards--Ykraps (talk) 07:12, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Horticulture and Gardening COTM
From: Northamerica1000(talk) 05:02, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Plant collaboration of the month
From: Northamerica1000(talk) 05:43, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

GOD merger.
Hi PCW, I think I'm just about done with my rewrite and I'm looking to merge the two. Any ideas how this can be best achieved? I've been looking at the existing article and wondering if some bits wouldn't be better placed in the Geography of Dorset article. Any thoughts?--Ykraps (talk) 07:38, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * To be honest I think it's probably best just to replace the whole of the existing article with your rewrite, as it's far more relevant to the subject of the article's title, and has its own internal cohesion. If any bits of the existing article are considered suitable for the Geography article, they can be retrieved from an old version of the page. I do recall deciding not to use any of the Geology article when I created the basics of the Geography page, although I didn't get as far as creating a habitats section, which is where stuff about downland etc. should sit. I've noticed that you've added an introduction to the rewrite, although this looks like it's been pasted in from elsewhere and has a few issues that need addressing - is that part still a work in progress, or do you want me to take a bit of a scalpel to it? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:23, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeh, the lead is composed from bits taken from here and there. It was just a jumble of ideas which I thought I'd tidy up after the articles were merged but if we are now agreed that wholesale transfer is the way to go, we can finish it in the sandbox. You are welcome to make any edits you see fit. I don't think I'm much of finisher.--Ykraps (talk) 08:58, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry
Sorry, PaleCloudedWhite, I see what I did now. However, if you had not unceremoniously reverted my changes along with some vandalism the problem might not have occurred. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:07, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. My initial reversion of your changes was deliberate, simply because you had left the page with gender notations that were not consistent throughout the article. I did wait a while before making the reversion, in case you were going to continue and complete the whole article, however you seemed to have stopped, and my view was that having the article 'half and half' was not acceptable. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:30, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I will try to get it completed as soon as I can. maybe someone will help. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:04, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks...
...for your contributions to the article Buff (colour)! Chrisrus (talk) 23:22, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Not that I've contributed a great deal!
 * Question: How could you describe someone who enthuses about the colour buff?
 * Answer: Caught in a circularity of meaning!
 * ( at buff....) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No, really, thanks. You had contributed several important things before the more recent contribution.
 * A: A Buff buff! I'm a buff buff, so it bothers me that I can't get the colors right in the flag section.  I've put in a request at the WP graphics lab.  If you're a buff buff too, could you get the colors of the flags to match the coordinates in the infobox?  I don't have the necessary knowledge or skills to do so myself, and a Google Images search for these flags will show you that it's Wikipedia just getting it wrong.  The Maine flag seems to be nearly if not the coorrect color.
 * Also, do sources to your reading have it where the verb is the linguistic father of the color, or the other way around? They seem to conflict.  Some say that it was based on an animal, then the leather, which gave the word to both the verb and the color, while others seem to have maybe the leather getting it's name from the verb.  Caught in a circularity of meaning!
 * Also, in my searches I've seen examples and references to "rosy buff" or "rose-tinted buff", but nothing citable. Keep an eye out, if you would!
 * Finally, do you remember the Manila paper we all used in kindergarten? Can we cite the fact that it was buff?  We have no citation for the color of the commercial envelopes, but so far we've allowed that to stand based on photographic evidence and our own common knowledge.  Chrisrus (talk) 14:23, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok, so the graphic labs people fixed the flags! I'm very happy, as that was bugging me. Second, thanks again for the derived terms section. I tried to restate it in fewer words, but have I lost any clarity? Also, I don't have access to the source. Did my edit lose any accuracy? Please feel free to edit.

Third, more information in that section is needed. We have the first citation of buff as a color, and then the term that derived from the color, but nothing about what the color word derived from in that section. We have that in the lead, where we say that it derived from the color of leather. I think we should repeat that again in that section for better flow. But if you have access to the source, are we sure that when they originally spoke of a "Buff" color, were they thinking of leather that had been buffed or processed, or leather that was used to buff things? Because that's the purpose of Chamois leather, to buff things, so I had made that assumption. But then again, the leather was also supposed to have derived from an animal that it came from, an animal word related to our word "Buffalo", but which I gather was French and may not have referred to European Bison. If you would, please see what your source says.

Finally, I went ahead and added the Manila paper. It's uncited, but unlikely to be challenged, don't you agree? I confirmed my hunch on the fact that article Manila paper says that it's buff; I didn't check sources. The picture is excellent quality, but I don't know if the lighting has washed out the color, but I think it looks less yellow than I remember it. If you agree, I might want to ask the graphics lab for someone to take another picture and concentrate this time on illustrating the color of natural manila paper.

Oversight?
I went to the Geography of Dorset article to get some info about Dorset's heaths and noticed there wasn't any. Is that just an oversight or did you think heathland belonged elsewhere?--Ykraps (talk) 09:43, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither - I just hadn't got around to writing the 'Habitats' section, which would/will include a bit about the heaths. (The Geography article is very much a bare bones effort that I put together quickly so that at least there was up, seeing as I had stated months before on the Geology article's talk page that I'd do something. It also doesn't as yet have anything at all about the human geography - manufacturing industry, tourism etc.) (I'm afraid I'm not as focussed as you are Ykraps, as I get distracted and flit about all over the Wiki - perhaps unfortunately haha! - though I rarely forget about articles and nearly always return, eventually...) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:57, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Focussed, me? I wish. I rarely make more than one or two minor edits before I'm off doing something else.--Ykraps (talk) 16:16, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Evershot parish boundary
Hi there :)

Thanks for your information. I wasn't sure how much of Holywell lay within the boundary, upon checking some online maps it varied, so I removed my previous edit just in case. I'll edit it again accordingly. Das Beta (talk) 15:13, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

beaminster
I see you reverted me, no wonder you're a gardener.
 * The source states it is the only example, not that it is the oldest of many. Nor does the source mention the UK.

What the heck??? It is the only surviving example of a pre-railway age tunnel in regular use, therefore making it the de facto oldest of its type. If there are no other surviving examples like it still in use every day, then it is the oldest. There are many other kinds of other tunnel in this country, but this is the only still in use of its type. How circular can I make this?

Your idiotic logic would only work if this was concerning the Queen of this country, not a Queen of this country. If we did, then you'd be right. But you are not. Only one Queen rules this country. But this is not about monarchs, it is about tunnels, specifically those built before the railway age which there, quite a few in fact. In this case, this one at Beaminster, and only this one, remains in continual daily use, making it the oldest one of it's kind is use every f*&king day!!!

Nor does the source talk about the UK....luck-a-loopy doop...it says "It is the only pre-railway road tunnel still in everyday use." Do you know what the definition of "only" is? Obviously not otherwise you might not have reverted me, as an adverb it means: without others or anything further; alone; solely; exclusively. Without others?? Your statement: "and is the sole pre-railway age road tunnel that is still in daily public use" is now completely meaningless, the reader cannot assume anything. It might be just in Beaminster that is " is the sole pre-railway age road tunnel that is still in daily public use" or hey it could be anywhere, er the world? Without a locale, what will a reader assume? Down the road there could be half dozen of these similar pre-rail tunnels in daily use?? But there is only one around Beaminster. "Only" in this case means the UK or Great Britain, that is what the source meant. You pedant! You think the writer of the source would mean just the town (or the other extreme, the whole universe?). I don't think so, but you obviously do. What a petty, petty fool you now look.

But hey don't worry I am not going to revert you again...on here when I get reverted by some numbskull I never bother again once I have driven it home to them how mentally challenged they are. I mean why should I? Wikipedia can only ever be judged by its weakest common denominator or articles as long as the likes of you are here that is a low set bar.

As a dumb-ass gardener why not stick to shovelling shit rather than writing it. Huh? 86.148.205.89 (talk) 17:31, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Your arguments don't make any logical sense, nor did your edit to the article. And why get so emotional over the wording used to describe a tunnel? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it is clear that the person using the anonymous IP above is the same one who made the illogical edit to the Beaminster page using a different IP. This phrase "I never bother again once I have driven it home to them" suggests that this person makes a habit of abusing Wikipedia editors. Congratulations on standing up to this nonsense PaleCloudedWhite, I hope it doesn't discourage you from continuing your efforts to preserve sense and decency here. Solidarity to you. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:56, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your concern! I am not discouraged, in fact it's rather amusing in a strange way. All in a day's work on "the 'pedia", haha! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:25, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

A beer for you!
Thanks very much! Yes, establishing trust wasn't easy, not helped I don't think by the fact that a previous editor had done a bit of a hatchet job, and we - without having had time to investigate - were defending it! It's actually proving quite a fascinating article to work on - so many twists and turns. It'd be nice to take it to Good Article status - there's definitely enough material. Very nice to have worked with you too - take a sip of the beer yourself! Cheers, PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:04, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

"Sandbourne Bay, past pier thirty-nine.."

 * "He said, "We're going wrong", we've all become the same
 * We dress the same ways, only our accents change".

- looks like Hardy had it right all along! (Oh no, I feel an vicious attack of Welsh-band-lyric Wessex puns coming on... yikes.) Was this only two years ago  Martinevans123 (talk) 22:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not having much success thinking of any Welsh-band-lyric Wessex puns - maybe you're going to escape haha.... I like the 'Top Comments' that accompany that vid - I think I might use the line "it's just not on in my opinion" in future edit summaries..... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:14, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Safe bro. I loves it! Martinevans123 (talk) 08:22, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Hey
I'm pleased to see you are making a go of it, despite my welcome :-)

Pulp pedia's (design) does intrigue. I had been thinking about how this was possible and I'm surprised someone hasnt done it for even more nefarious reasons. I think you areright that the WMF but if it offends you then you can off an email to info@wikimedia.org but I suspect they have larger breaches to hit at. If you get bored then add gibraltarpedia to your watch list. We plan to "do" Gibraltar Botanic Gardens and wikify it from one end to the other. We have funds and permission.... how do I get the botanists involved? Cheers Roger Victuallers (talk) 09:04, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Geology of Dorset
Just to let you know, I have replaced your Geology of Dorset article with the version in my sandbox as we tentatively agreed. I have put your version User:Ykraps/Geology of Dorset (PCW edit) for safekeeping as I think there's some good stuff which can still be used in a number of Dorset related articles. If you've changed your mind, please revert; or if there is anything you wish to add, please add it. User:Mikenorton has written a structure section and is keen to contribute but I will wait until you have replied to ensure we are all in agreement as to the best way to proceed. Best regards--Ykraps (talk) 21:05, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for crediting me with the old Geology article, but really I'd played no part in its creation - maybe you're mixing it with the Geography article? I think your new version is a great improvement, and I see that Mikenorton has already just added his structure section, so all's well as far as I'm concerned. And by the way, congratulations on getting the Dorset article to FA status - a result that's been very much down to your patient editing and dogged determination. Well done! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:52, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oops, I think that's what I did, oh well. I was just thinking that the previous G.O.D. incarnation might make the start of an Ecology of Dorset article. Any thoughts on that?--Ykraps (talk) 22:32, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

A Grand Project
We could do with you if you are interested? Would you believe there are plants like "Pride of Gibraltar" that don't have an article about their sub species? Can I tempt you Victuallers (talk) 09:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you
I greatly appreciated your reply on the Charlotte Bronte page. I was not particularly expecting any editor to reply, but to receive such a fullsome response was welcome. If you don't object I would intend to possibly link to it in future, though I don't have any particular intention/purpose to do so at the moment. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:52, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Horticulture and Gardening Project COTM
— Northamerica1000(talk) 01:11, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Can you help with the abbreviation KL?
Hi, sorry to bother you, I wonder if you have local knowledge that could help to resolve an edit-war situation, or if you could suggest a suitable forum to ask such a question. An editor has been removing a lot of material from the KL disambiguation page, some of it on the grounds that the statement made there is not also made on the target page. Two of these items are: It is quite easy to find confirmation of the nicknames using google advanced search with the phrase "KL", but not in places that are usually acceptable as wikipedia links. Do you know of good sources for this sort of documentation? Thanks. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:29, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Nickname for Kings Langley, Hertfordshire
 * Nickname for King's Lynn, Norfolk
 * Any local knowledge I have doesn't extend as far as nicknames I'm afraid. I've had a bit of a look online but have drawn a similar blank to yourself. Unfortunately official documents of the type preferred by Wikipedia don't as a whole go into the subject of nicknames. Looking on the bright side, any reader who is searching for these communities under their nickname, is likely to know the full name as well, so I assume it unlikely that any readers will not find what they're looking for, should the disambig page not carry this particular information. Sorry I can't be more definitive! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 06:48, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Perhaps cities have to reach a certain enormous size before their nicknames start showing up in sufficiently official documents. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:21, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Horticulture and Gardening/COTM
Just a note: It's time for new entries to be decided at the WikiProject Horticulture and Gardening/COTM. Northamerica1000(talk) 13:10, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, thanks for checking in! Best, Northamerica1000(talk) 13:55, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Sorry for missing last month's vote - I tend to get sidetracked by all the many avenues it's possible to go down whilst on here.... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 14:51, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It's nice to find editors with similar topical interests. Peace, Northamerica1000(talk) 18:24, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Horticulture and Gardening Updated
Thanks for helping out! Northamerica1000(talk) 09:49, 3 October 2012 (UTC)


 * ✅ The talk pages for the September 2012 entries have been updated with the PastGCOTM template. Northamerica1000(talk) 09:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)


 * ✅ Added View and Talk page links to the template: Template:Horticulture and Gardening Project COTM (Updated template above). Northamerica1000(talk) 10:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Glad you've told me what the 'V' and 'T' mean, otherwise I might have overlooked them. I must say you're extremely prolific! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 10:23, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestion to make the template easier to find. Northamerica1000(talk) 10:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)


 * ✅ Made some improvements to the overall layout of the template (reposted above) Northamerica1000(talk) 06:44, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Horticulture and Gardening
Just pinging you to request any ideas for November's picks at WikiProject Horticulture and Gardening/COTM, and thanks for your consideration! Northamerica1000(talk) 01:54, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Horticulture and Gardening COTM
From: Northamerica1000(talk) 15:39, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Edits on Conquistador
Hi PaleCloudedWhite,

I agree with your assessment that the recent spate of edits on Conquistador show the same style as the infamous User:Sonia Murillo Perales (and, as you point out, the same city by geolocation). This IP is extremely prolific with unsourced additions, so poorly written that some ludicrous statements have resulted. Unfortunately (as has been the case in the past with these sockpuppets) it looks as if it will be a lot of work to build a case for blocking and undo the damage! Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:55, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Hopefully previous investigations into this fiendish editor have set a precedent that will make such action easier, if it proves necessary. Actually I think the edits on Conquistador weren't as bad as others we have seen on various plant articles, which as you're aware sometimes resulted in text that was so adrift from standard English, it had considerable comedy value (assuming one could suspend concern that readers might believe some of the assertions being made...) Although having said that, the editor initially referring to Shanghai as Shangay was perhaps almost on a par with previous gems....
 * I notice that you've tried to tackle the edits which the editor has made at Influences on the Spanish language, where at first glance it seems the problems are worse than at Conquistador. As in previous cases, I ponder whether it's simplest (and less of a headache) just to revert the whole lot (which I did at Conquistador), even though this goes against the collaborative spirit of Wikipedia editing... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:00, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "dancing across the water" (from Zaragosa), maybe?? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:11, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * By Montezuma, Martin, I think you've found the fount of inspiration. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:31, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I do apologize for my unrelenting levity and facetiousness. As PCW knows only too well, I'm sure, I often find it difficult to take anything seriously at "wikipedalos". But I know how annoying and destructive ip trolls can be. Even Spanish ones. Good luck in your noble cause. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:45, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure Sminthopsis84 appreciated your levity Martin, though as always when speaking on behalf of others (a dangerous game!), I am open to being corrected. My reply to your levity is this: any dancing is being undertaken in the style of this unforgettable character, methinks. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:02, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Fnaar, fnaar (as our "Northern Viz friends" might have it, by Jove!) Don'tcha just love ip antics. Or not. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:10, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Beep! Beep! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:15, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed. Although, to me, it will always be "meep, meep" ! Martinevans123 (talk) 23:23, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I put 'meep meep' initially, as that's what it sounds like, but the Wikipedia article stated it's 'beep beep', so I assented. Wikipedia knows best, haha! I can't believe 10 people have 'disliked' that clip - I was laughing and my pc won't reproduce sounds! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's even balloon-captioned "Beep beep" by Chuck Jones himself! But I think this is either a mistake, or has been arranged by those ruthless Cold War conspiring meat puppets we know about. I think Wiki Project Canis latrans should be told!! you really must get sound (and email) enabled, PCW... so I can send you links to some of the much stranger YT rubbish I find in my spare time... Martinevans123 (talk) 00:08, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I vaguely intend to get email (and sound) enabled, but have somehow so far not got around to looking into it in any detail (I have a simply enormous back burner, haha!). I'm intrigued - do you have any spare time, outside of this worthy enterprise? I don't believe you'd ever watch anything rubbish, perish the thought, haha! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 00:28, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * you'd be amazed! ..... =(:->)<--<>}⊃∑+[[[ ..... and now neatly back to El Conquistadores: (if you had sound you'd learn that the Spanish for Roadrunner is, in fact, "beep-beep"..) [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] (talk) 08:50, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Goodness, gracious, so it is! Perhaps I was wrong to criticize the claim on Influences on the Spanish language that names for unknown objects were borrowed from other languages. Language evolution is clearly a deeper subject than I should venture into unschooled. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 13:59, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * About Influences on the Spanish language, indeed, the edits that I made in exasperation on small parts of the mess are not worth salvaging. Of course, we should discuss the matter on that talk page rather than here, would you mind copying, or if I copy what you have written above to there, in preparation for a major revert? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:31, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, feel free to copy relevant paragraphs to the Influences on the Spanish language talk page; there they'll probably need an introductory preamble, by way of explanation. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:02, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, more staid than you two, I'm off to do the needful. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 00:22, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha, that's very good! Martinevans123 (talk) 08:55, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think you could ever be considered staid, Sminthopsis84 - after all, your eating habits alone are sufficient to bring civilised conversations to a halt, or so I've been told ( by a reliable authority, haha!... ) PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:54, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess so. We insectivores often find that civilised conversation can interfere dreadfully with a good lunch. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 13:59, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

SPI started. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:47, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Second anniversary in this Wikipediaworld
As Virgil wrote: Sed fugit interea fugit irreparabile tempus, singula dum capti circumvectamur amore I always remember your considerable assistance in my early days here. –&#32; –&#32;Gareth Griffith-Jones / The Welsh Buzzard 11:33, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, at last, a bit of real "cultcha" to elevate the general tone here. Roman poets are GO!!!. But happy anniversary again, anyway, PCW. Yours, Mr Ed, the talking pantomime horse.
 * Congratulations on your longevity in Wikipedia, oh venerable one! Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for all your kind words, they are appreciated. It's nice to hear from you again Gareth (I thought maybe my uncouth tendencies had previously sent you fleeing). I used google to "translate" your quotation from the Latin; it came back with "But meanwhile it flees irreparable period of time, while we, charmed with love of each of the". This is, I'm sure you agree, a 'quality' rendering which, amongst others, might amuse Sminthopsis84, who I know has experience of mopping up after bad translations! Mr Ed, I have had a word with someone who knows Tony very well, and have been reassured that General Tone (as he is more formally known) looks forward to being lowered here again in the future, haha! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 17:09, 11 December 2012 (UTC) Good old Google ... and now being scrutinised for cheating on the their PAYE, eh? Now, how about this,"But meanwhile it flees: time flees irretrievably, while we wander around, prisoners of our love of detail." –&#32; –&#32;Gareth Griffith-Jones / The Welsh Buzzard 20:58, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Good job you didn't mean someone else who knows Tony very well... no, hang on, that was St Tone, wasn't it, not Gen. But great to see a classic equine band like Hot Lips get a mention here. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:24, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not at all, PCW. You have always remained on my radar
 * Now there's a genuine 1960s Prog Rock Groundbeaker to be reckoned with!! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

  Gareth Griffith-Jones  – The Welsh  Buzzard  – is wishing you the season's greetings. Whether you celebrate your hemisphere's solstice or Christmas, Diwali, Hogmanay, Hanukkah, Lenaia, Festivus, or the Saturnalia, this is a special time of year for (almost) everyone.

–&#32; Gareth Griffith-Jones &#124; The Welsh Buzzard &#124; 08:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thankyou Gareth. I've sent you a bird with a bit more meat on it, haha! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:39, 25 December 2012 (UTC).
 * Thank you! He is splendid. I have replied fully here –&#32;

Yo Pale! Nadolig hapus!!
 Martinevans123Santas Grotto wishes you and yours "Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda"

May the true spirit of Christmas bless you with warmth and peace ....

Happy holidays!
Hello PaleCloudedWhite: Thanks for all of your contributions to Wikipedia, and have a happy and enjoyable holiday season! Northamerica1000(talk) 16:10, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Just in case ...
Thank you! He is splendid. I have replied fully [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gareth_Griffith-Jones#I.27m_afraid_it_ate_the_robin.... here] – – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 8:12 am, 26 December 2012, last Wednesday (3 days ago) (UTC+0) Gareth Griffith-Jones  – The Welsh  Buzzard  – 09:24, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Just in case you missed my reply higher up the page -


 * Hello Gareth, you are a very conscientious editor, and always very polite - I think you'd make a very good ambassador for Wikipedia (though if you were to take up such a post, you'd probably have to watch some of your gossipy tendencies, haha!). I had indeed read your reply - thankyou for your enthusiastic and full response. I hope you can make allowances for my rather random approach to editing - I tend to flit about, and get sidetracked down little avenues of interest - which means that I don't always follow threads in a diligent manner. (Also, speaking more generally, I spend most of my time just trying to earn a living - often leaving little energy left for Wikipedia). If I don't reply to postings, please be assured it's not because I've dismissed them, but rather because either 1) I'm knackered or 2) my attention's been snagged by something else, or 3) a combination of the two. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 12:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Ha, ha! I appreciate your kind pronouncementn. I do enjoy the trivial threads that we have enjoyed over the past year, although the appalling weather must have made following your profession something of a tribulation.  I can easily believe you have been feeling "ready for the knacker’s yard" -  Gareth Griffith-Jones   – The Welsh  Buzzard  – 13:04, 29 December 2012 (UTC)