User talk:Paleface Jack/Archive 4

New rfc on merging List of cryptids
Since you participated in the rfc earlier in the year, I am letting you know of another rfc to merge List of cryptids. Which ever way the wind blows you are welcome to join in. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:50, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Meat-puppetry related to list of cryptids
It appears that you have been canvassing—leaving messages on a biased choice of users' talk pages to notify them of an ongoing community decision, debate, or vote. While friendly notices are allowed, they should be limited and nonpartisan in distribution and should reflect a neutral point of view. Please do not post notices which are indiscriminately cross-posted, which espouse a certain point of view or side of a debate, or which are selectively sent only to those who are believed to hold the same opinion as you. Remember to respect Wikipedia's principle of consensus-building by allowing decisions to reflect the prevailing opinion among the community at large. Thank you. Simonm223 (talk) 13:26, 31 December 2018 (UTC)


 * That's definitely NOT what happened. Slandering my name is not okay.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:50, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Late replies
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to stuff. I figured I would do it here since my Talk Page is so backed up. I have recently started editing Wikipedia regularly again. I'm going to go through and clean my Talk Page and hopefully start being on top of responding to everything. I was also involved in a time-consuming years-long administrative matter that has now ended.

To address some of the key points you have raised:
 * If the user is still doing his POV-pushing across cryptid articles, my advice would be to open a discussion at Dispute resolution noticeboard. If the Wikiproject responds, that may very well solve the issue and determine a consensus.


 * I'm going to try and get Halloween (2018 film) to GA quality, and help bring the Leatherface draft to FA quality. I recently nominated Hellraiser: Judgment for a GA review as well. It looks like Chatterer was turned to a redirect by an administrator due to a lack of quality and sourcing, although I wouldn't call it irreversible since there was no consensus or deletion discussion. I don't think I will have enough time to do much on Begotten, since sources are scarce, but if you need anything specific done or have sources containing information that hasn't been added yet, I can definitely help out there.


 * On a side note, my Professor Pyg draft has been put on hold due to time constraints.

If I missed anything or if you have any questions, feel free to let me know. Sorry for the long wait.  Dark Knight  2149  19:34, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * No need to apologize, it's great to see that you are still alive since I thought you were either dead or you were mad at me for involving you with the whole BloodofFox issue. In regards to THAT fiasco, I was given the exact same advice but I was debating whether or not I should do it since I don't think I have the sort of sanity that goes with that, and that whole thing has sort of been getting worse in that user's interactions with me. Anyways, no need to worry about the Begotten article. You can always check the talk page on the userspace draft for all the tasks that I still need to do. Thanks for all the help and the heads up man, if there's anything you need help with don't hesitate to ask.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:13, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

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Non-free content use
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Leatherface question
Are Birth of an icon and Development meant to be separate sections, or is Development intended to be a subsection under Birth of an icon? I'm not really sure.  Dark Knight  2149  19:15, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Begotten seems to be in a weird situation. The Blu-ray was going to be released in Fall 2016, but this never took place. The director created an official page for the film on Twitter for fans to follow updates, but it has since been protected . It could be a distribution problem, but it's hard to say.  Dark Knight  2149  19:34, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't get back to you sooner, I've been dividing my time here working on an updated version of the Billy article since it's in such a state of underdevelopment, and trying to find a way to include some podcast interviews with Merhige into the Begotten revision draft. To answer your questions, no, Birth of an icon wasn't intended to be a separate section but rather a sub-section as is the case with the "Men Behind the Mask" sub-section. As for the Begotten Blue-ray stuff, we can add it with the info stating that it was not released at the intended date and no further news has been reported.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:25, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Added a short blurb on that.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:42, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure the Begotten Blu-ray will be released at some point. 2016 and 2017 were bad years for horror movie delays, for some reason. Leatherface, Begotten, Hellraiser: Judgment, Hellraiser: Omnibus Vol 2, the Human Centipede graphic novel, ETC. Dark Knight  2149  17:49, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Indeed!--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:07, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Metacritic's "normalized" scores
Hi Paleface Jack. Thanks for your contributions to film articles. I notice that you follow a pattern that goes back many years of describing Metacritic's scores as "normalized". I'd like to ask you to consider using weighted average instead. It's far more accurate. Please see the discussion at WT:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 6. The word "normalized" was used years ago on Wikipedia to describe Metacritic's scores, and editors have duplicated the wording since then without actually understanding the meaning. Some of us have been trying to correct this over the years, and we've made some headway. Many articles now do not use the word "normalized". If you could use "weighted average" instead, it would save us the trouble of having to fix it. Thanks!

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Consensus
Hi there. Thanks for all your hard work on those film articles. Whilst adding stuff you might want to check the spelling of "consensus" – it is consensus with an S and not concensus with a C. The way I remember it when I get confused (i.e. most of the time for me) is that in terms of its roots it is like having consent rather than having something to do with the census, tempting though this is! I do hope that this helps, and I wish you Happy Editing! Cheers DBaK (talk) 16:24, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Stephen Richards (murderer)
The article Stephen Richards (murderer) you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold. The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Stephen Richards (murderer) for issues which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Example -- Example (talk) 19:21, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

October 2019
Hello, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. This is just a note to let you know that I've moved the draft that you were working on to Draft:The Golem (2018 film), from its old location at User:Paleface Jack/The Golem (2018 film). This has been done because the Draft namespace is the preferred location for Articles for Creation submissions. Please feel free to continue to work on it there. If you have any questions about this, you are welcome to ask me on my talk page. Thank you. -Liancetalk/contribs 23:45, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: The Golem (2018 film) has been accepted
 The Golem (2018 film), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created. The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article. You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. If your account is more than four days old and you have made at least 10 edits you can create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer. Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia! Bkissin (talk) 14:30, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_talk/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=The_Golem_(2018_film) help desk] .
 * If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider.

Consensus again
Hi there. Thanks for all your hard work on those film articles. Whilst adding stuff you might want to check the spelling of "consensus" – it is consensus with an S and not concensus with a C. The way I remember it when I get confused (i.e. most of the time for me) is that in terms of its roots it is like having consent rather than having something to do with the census, tempting though this is! I do hope that this helps, and I wish you Happy Editing! Cheers DBaK (talk) 17:39, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Gosh dang it! I keep forgetting that. Thanks for the reminder.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:01, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * You're most welcome. Just keep saying consent vs. census to yourself and you can end up a sad old obsessive nitpicker like me! Enjoy!! Cheers DBaK (talk) 16:06, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Will do.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:59, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

The Collaboration: General Points
Welcome fellow collaborators. I just want to reiterate that our goal here is to expand this article to FA status which means we will need to follow the guidelines for FA status article very carefully. Along with expanding all aspects of this article, reworking/rewriting certain points we should also work on making sure that all information is clearly stated and not absent from the article. This article needs to be expanded to its fullest extent with all the information from each individual source stated in the article (if multiple sources state the same information, then they should both be cited).

Here are some other goals for this article:
 * Finding and citing all sources that mention film critic Susan Sontag's review on the film (we also need to find the main article of Sontag's review.
 * More information on the production and release of the film's sequel Din of Celestial Birds (which I have petitioned to be merged with this article since it doesn't have enough sources to be its own article).
 * If possible, adding a section discussing the film's different themes.
 * Finding other works that have been influenced by the film.
 * Interviews from the film's cast and crew if they exist.
 * General expansion and reworking of all sections of the article.
 * Correcting and sorting references and notes.

--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:32, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

So I've been working more on this article and I still need help with the above mentioned goals. Also I am finding that I need more information and appropriate sources that detail the works of director Merhige himself. Specifically I need information on projects before and after Begotten that Merhige has worked on with all of the director's works that he completed before working on Begotten should be added to the "Development" sub-section of this article (provided that it's properly written and sourced) and projects done after this film's release can be placed in the "Legacy" section. There is some unsourced information that can be found on the wikipiedia article for Merhige that can be added to the article but it needs to be given proper citations. I am also looking for more works that may have been influenced by Begotten so if there are any more that can be found they should be added to this article with proper citations. This article is coming along well and I'm excited for the end result. FA status here we come!:)--Paleface Jack (talk) 15:23, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Adding information on the film's themes as well as including the different religious themes from different mythologies should also be added to this section.--Paleface Jack (talk) 15:53, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Problems with Editing
Just wanted to give you all an update. I have been working on this article today and I have noticed that for some reason most of the release section is absent from the article. Checking the code, the section is all written down correctly but for some reason only the home media sub-section is showing up and for no apparent reason it's in the production section?! I have been trying to fix this but have had no success so far so if anyone else is able to fix this problem please feel free to do so.--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:35, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Fixed it. :)--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:30, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Never mind... Still don't understand what is going on here. An entire sub-section is missing from the article even though it appears while editing the page. If anyone knows what is going on and can fix this problem please do so.--Paleface Jack (talk) 15:52, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Additional sources
I have found some additional sources from several different books. Problem is I haven't gotten around to adding them in the article yet. Here's a list of some of them:
 * 1) A New Pot of Gold: Hollywood Under the Electronic Rainbow, 1980-1989.  It would be helpful to see the previous page, but this extract has a few useful bits of critical commentary. Pages are missing from Google Books so we will have to find an actual copy of the book.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:01, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * 2) Contemporary North American Film Directors: A Wallflower Critical Guide.  Short and sweet.  This concise biographical entry has some useful critical commentary mixed in.
 * 3) The Avant-Garde Feature Film: A Critical History.  This is much longer and more in-depth.  I haven't finished reading it yet. Pages are missing from Google Books so we will have to find an actual copy of the book.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:59, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * 4) The Pleasure and Pain of Cult Horror Films: An Historical Survey.  I've use this source for other articles, and it's usually pretty good.  I haven't read this yet. Pages are missing from Google Books so we will have to find an actual copy of the book.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:59, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * 5) The Magic Hour: Film at Fin de Siècle By J. Hoberman Added.
 * 6) Disorders of Magnitude: A Survey of Dark Fantasy By Jason V. Brock. The film is listed as number 7 as the authors personal favorites. Not sure if this is notable enough to warrent adding it to the article.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * 7) Nosferatu: A Symphony of Horror By Cristina Massaccesi. Gives information on how Merhige was hired to direct Shadow of the Vampire because of Begotten. I will add this to the article myself.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * 8) TLA Film and Video Guide 2000-2001: The Discerning Film Lover's Guide edited by David Bleiler. Added
 * 9) The New York Times Film Reviews. A selection of New York Times reviews on Google Books that includes the film.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * 10) Aesthetics of Discomfort: Conversations on Disquieting Art By Frederick Luis Aldama, Herbert S. Lindenberger. Regardless of my personal feelings for the film, this one's necessary to add as it chronicles one of the negative reviews of the film.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC) Added
 * 11) The Resistance: Ten Years of Pop Culture that Shook the World. The page is not viewable in this form so we will have to find a physical copy somewhere.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * 12) Nicolas Cage: The Unauthorized Biography. Has more information pertaining to the film in regards as to how Merhige was hired to direct SOTV (Shadow of the Vampire). Will need to find a physical copy of the book as the pages don't expand to show the information needed.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) The Resistance: Ten Years of Pop Culture that Shook the World. The page is not viewable in this form so we will have to find a physical copy somewhere.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * 2) Nicolas Cage: The Unauthorized Biography. Has more information pertaining to the film in regards as to how Merhige was hired to direct SOTV (Shadow of the Vampire). Will need to find a physical copy of the book as the pages don't expand to show the information needed.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

The trouble I'm having with finding sources is that many of the results for my searches are sites I'm unfamiliar with (and can't advocate their reliability) or are already listed (such as the New York Times). I did, however, uncover this article that could be helpful (an analysis written by a critic that is recognized by Rotten Tomatoes). I plan on going through it and seeing if any of it can be used to develop certain sections. Do you know where I can find reliable sources that have covered Begotten?

Also, from what I can tell, things have been strangely silent in terms of the Begotten Blu-Ray and 30mm release, which Merhige talked about in 2016 (There seems to be a lot of that going around recently... Amityville: The Awakening, Leatherface, Hellraiser: Judgment, and Children of the Corn: Runaway all went silent for months or longer). It would be cool if KL Studio Classics or The Criterion Collection released a restoration on it, but we'll have to see what's going on with that.  Dark Knight  2149  03:13, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Unfortunately I was coming up empty myself when looking for additional sources. There are some that I've haven't listed here that I can't seem to find anywhere. I will get back to you on that as soon as I can. Hopefully Criterion picks this film up. It's really good and was very influential on me as a filmmaker. We shall see. Personally I would like to hear what you felt about the film.--Paleface Jack 03:37, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit preoccupied with Hellraiser: Judgment, but I'll be back to tell you once I've applied the finishing touches (such as the lead, Plot, ETC). Begotten is one of those films where it's hard to give your thoughts and interpretation without going into deep detail. The short version is that I thought it was a disturbing, yet thought provoking film. It's like an allegorical commentary that was intentionally disguised as a fantasy-horror film.  Dark Knight  2149  00:50, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Good to hear.--Paleface Jack 01:08, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

More Sources
This article is looking good so far, although it still needs to have sections like the one on Din of Celestial Birds expanded in more detail. Information from the above listed sources will also need to be included some time soon. Apart from that, I am listing more sources that myself or others can add at a later date. Here they are:--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:52, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * https://ultraculture.org/blog/2015/12/20/e-elias-merhige/
 * http://filmthreat.com/uncategorized/the-bootleg-files-begotten/ Added
 * http://www.artnews.com/2017/09/11/zola-jesus-on-artists-from-different-disciplines-who-inspired-her-new-album-okovi/ Added
 * https://archive.org/stream/Begotten_201310/begotten_djvu.txt
 * http://thesnivelinggoat.com/begotten-e-elias-merhige/
 * http://history.sffs.org/films/film_details.php?id=448 Added
 * https://www.askmen.com/top_10/celebrity/10-hard-to-stomach-horror-movies/begotten-1990.html Added
 * https://www.highsnobiety.com/2016/11/08/most-disturbing-movies-of-all-time/ Added
 * https://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/rochester/adam-reviews-frankenstein-bemshi-and-one-frogless-evening-a-tribute-to-amphibian-artiste-michigan-j-frog/Content?oid=8116261 Added
 * https://www.arthaps.com/show/begotten_1

Here are more sources:--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:46, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Pg 20 (lists the film as an example of independently financed films)
 * No preview of the entry is available thus a physical copy will need to be acquired.

Tasks to Accomplish
This article is getting closer and closer to completion. However, there are still some tasks that need to be completed in order to get this all ready for a GA and FA Status. The list below details all the tasks that still need to be completed before this article is ready.


 * Finish expanding Themes section (Any reviews, or article that acknowledge or explain the film's themes should be included.


 * Finding Proper Images to include into the article. The Links to those images and where they shall be used should be posted on this talk page.
 * If it exists, add information on the actors, or film crew (from interviews or what not). I have been having a hard time finding anything on them so it may not even exist.


 * General addition of any information that is not found in the article.


 * Including all information from the following sources:
 * 1) A New Pot of Gold: Hollywood Under the Electronic Rainbow, 1980-1989.
 * 2) The Avant-Garde Feature Film: A Critical History.
 * 3) The Pleasure and Pain of Cult Horror Films: An Historical Survey.
 * 4) The Resistance: Ten Years of Pop Culture that Shook the World.
 * 5) Nicolas Cage: The Unauthorized Biography.
 * 6) John Dee and the Empire of Angels: Enochian Magick and the Occult Roots of the Modern World

This article is soo close to nearing completion. I can't wait to get it to FA status!--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:18, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

There is also a podcast interview with Merhige, that provides a bunch of very insightful information on the film and some of its themes. Unfortunately, the original podcast post is dead (the podcast itself id dead linked but the link to the podcast's release is not) but it can alternately be found on iTunes. I myself have never cited audio or podcasts before so this might require some secondary help. I will include the "dead" link and the iTunes link Here: "Dead-link": E. Elias Merhige, Director of 'Begotten' and 'Shadow of the Vampire,' Chats About Magick and Remote Viewing iTunes link: Ultraculture With Jason Louv by Jason Louv on Apple Podcasts (Episode 40) --Paleface Jack (talk) 17:39, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Found another Podcast Interview with Merhige: https://archive.org/details/JustinBeahmRadioHourEEliasMerhigeEpisode171016_201607

Possible Images to Use in the Article
As this article nears completion, I've decided to begin discussions on possible images to include in the article. If anyone else has more ideas/opinions on other possible images that could be included, where they should go, and why they should be included feel free to list them.

Here are my ideas of possible images and sections they would be used in and ones I still need to find: --Paleface Jack (talk) 17:57, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Atalanta Fugiens - Themes section (Illustrating the film's incorporation of Mythological figures and events such as the inclusion of Mother Earth)
 * Image of Theatre of Material- Development section (Illustrating Merhige's original intention for the film to be a theatre piece, as well as the film's use of actors from Theatre of Material)
 * Screenshot of the film and/or image of an optical printer- Post-production sub-section (Both would be used to describe the film's visual style)
 * Susan Sontag image- Reception section (Used to show Sontag as the film's main advocate and had helped get the film released)
 * Image of Chicago's Film Forum- Theatrical release section (Used to illustrate the film's first official premiere at Chicago's Film Forum)
 * Poster of Din of Celestial Birds- Legacy section (Used as a visual reference on the entry of the film's spiritual sequel)

Addressing the Current Citation Style and FINAL Tasks
For the past week and a half I have been completely rewriting the article's citation style so as to get it all GA and FA worthy. I am now in the process of gathering the remaining sources that need to ba added to the article, which is mainly comprised of audio interviews with the director and finding better references to replace the Amazon.com information I gathered. I will list the audio interviews on this talk page if anyone wants to work on those. I am also going to go ahead and look for the appropriate images that can be used in the article. Anyone that knows of any sources that I've missed feel free to let me know.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:20, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Sources That STILL Need to be Added
Please note that this sub-section is mostly a reminder to myself however, if someone is able to add the information from these sources, feel free to let me know. I am transferring all previously listed sources that have yet to be added here along with any new ones that I find. I have yet to figure out if I can and how to cite information from audio sources so someone with experiance will probably be needed.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:34, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Audio References Alternate links: Literary References
 * https://archive.org/details/JustinBeahmRadioHourEEliasMerhigeEpisode171016_201607
 * "Dead-link": E. Elias Merhige, Director of 'Begotten' and 'Shadow of the Vampire,' Chats About Magick and Remote Viewing (This podcast interview with Merhige provides a bunch of very insightful information on the film and some of its themes. Unfortunately, the podcast itself is dead linked but the link to the podcast's release is not)
 * 
 * 
 * 1) A New Pot of Gold: Hollywood Under the Electronic Rainbow, 1980-1989.
 * 2) The Avant-Garde Feature Film: A Critical History.
 * 3) The Pleasure and Pain of Cult Horror Films: An Historical Survey.
 * 4) The Resistance: Ten Years of Pop Culture that Shook the World.
 * 5) Nicolas Cage: The Unauthorized Biography.
 * 6) John Dee and the Empire of Angels: Enochian Magick and the Occult Roots of the Modern World