User talk:PalestineRemembered/Archives/2008/September

Land Day /Jewish exodus
The background of the former is completely skewed, as you note. The latter article is premised on a wholly ideological POV attempt to establish a symmetry between the expulsion of Palestinians, and the far more, and much later (generally) exodus of Jewish communities from the Arab world. The Arabs did not encourage Palestinians to leave. Zionists strongly encouraged the Jewish diaspora in the Arab world to make aliyah. As it stands, of all I/P articles, the Jewish exodus registers as the one which narrates almost exclusively an Israeli/Zionist POV. Quite remarkable. This is how Shlomo Ben-Ami puts it, in his review of Benny Morris's latest masterpiece,1948, regarding, precisely operations in the Galilee (celebrated in Land Day.
 * In October of that year, on the eve of Operation Hiram, which led to the expulsion of many of the Arabs of the northern Galilee region, Ben-Gurion declared, "The Arabs of the Land of Israel have only one function left to them -- to run away." And they did; panic-stricken, they fled in the face of massacres in Ein Zeitun and Eilabun, just as they had done in the wake of an earlier massacre in Deir Yassin. Operational orders, such as the instruction from Moshe Carmel, the Israeli commander of the northern front, "to attack in order to conquer, to kill among the men, to destroy and burn the villages," were carved into the collective memory of the Palestinians, spawning hatred and resentment for generations.
 * There are only two points on which Morris' splendid analysis falters. He is unconvincing in his attempt to pardon some of Israel's original sins by creating an awkward symmetry between the Palestinian refugee crisis and the forced emigration of 600,000 Jews from Arab countries and Iran, which Morris quotes Israeli leaders as calling "an unplanned 'exchange of population.'" Regimes hostile to Israel were not alone in getting Jews to leave; envoys from the Mossad, Israel's intelligence agency, and from the Jewish Agency were working underground in several Middle Eastern countries to encourage Jews to go to Israel. More important, for many Jews in the region, the very possibility of immigrating to Israel was the culmination of millenarian dreams. It represented the consummation of a quest to take part in Israel's resurgence as a nation. No matter how painful the memory of their eviction or how humiliating their second-class status in Israel, these new Israelis never sought to return to their lands of origin. By contrast, the Palestinian refugees were forced into the wilderness of exile with no guarantee of a new national home and no prospect of returning to their native land. The yearning for return thus became the Palestinians' defining national ethos.
 * Morris' characterization of the conflict of 1948 as an Islamic jihad against Jewish-Western infidels in Palestine is also unpersuasive.Shlomo Ben-Ami A War to Start All Wars, Foreign Affairs, September/October 2008. Review of Benny Morris 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War. Benny Morris. Yale University Press, 2008 Nishidani (talk) 16:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Tiamut just did a great job of getting the Land Day section back in shape. Her approach is a model for all of us to follow. I hope other editors let it stand.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 17:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

''PR, please see this cautionary note and please be responsive. Thank you very much, take care, HG | Talk 13:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC) ''
 * I strongly second HG's note. If you can't rebegin by burying the hatchet and making a fresh start, as Jaakobou is trying to do, then you're wasting your own, and our, time. Those who can't, if not forget, at least 'suspend' the pressure of, the past, will inevitably repeat its errors. Everytime you are tempted to make these boring remarks (boring because no one needs to be reminded of them, since we all know these things intimately), think of the rules you are obliged to honour, and play cat's cradle until the itch passes. Thank you Nishidani (talk) 16:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC).
 * Thanks PR. And remember, HG, Jaakobou and anyone else would have been perfectly in their rights to haul you over the administrative coals for that lapse. They didn't. Nishidani (talk) 16:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * True. But PR did remove it, thank you. HG | Talk 16:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Note
Hi PalestineRemembered, This personal commentary seems inappropriate and I've therefore decided to remove it. With respect,  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  18:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That was a pity, it was addressed to Tiamut, and it seems unlikely she had time to see it. I thought it important to tell/remind her that identifying racism is far more dangerous than practising it. PRtalk 19:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * PalestineRemembered,
 * I request you avoid making personal commentaries about my "suffering minority". Such comments seem quite inappropriate.
 * Cordially,  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  19:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I also thought it important to assure Tiamut that, far from abusing her over her ethnicity, you'd be keen that this not happen. PRtalk 19:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please, in the future, make sure to avoid racial commentaries. Making racist comments is not the same as "identifying racism" and "defending abused editors". Perhaps it would be best if you focused on contributing content to Wikipedia, rather than making personal comments on my talk page.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  19:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I also thought it important to assure Tiamut that, far from abusing her over her ethnicity, you'd be keen that this not happen. PRtalk 19:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * As they say, The Road to Hell is full of good intentions. Remember to avoid making racist comments, and we'll be fine.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  20:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I also thought it important to assure Tiamut that, far from abusing her over her ethnicity, you'd be keen that this did not happen. PRtalk 19:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

PalestineRemembered, you really need to stop making false claims towards fellow editors.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  20:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've made no claims about you. Well, other than telling  T i a m u t talk that you'd not racially abuse her - if you prefer to tell us you would, then of course I'd have no problem with you doing that. PRtalk 20:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I know that'll sound silly, but can you please both unwatch each other talk pages and ignore yourselves cordially? Don't read the talk page, don't comment on it. Don't even think of trolling there. Seriously... If you can't do that for yourselves, do it for us... -- lucasbfr  talk 21:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * (Under Review) PRtalk 10:32, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Latrun
Hi PR, There are indeed issues in the article. But I would like we discuss all these when the translation is finished. Particularly concerning the lead which is assumed to be a fair synthesis of this and in theory should not require sources. Ceedjee (talk) 11:17, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Jenin
I was not inferring that it was vandalism. The anon had accused both Jaakobou and myself of vandalism for reverting, so I suggested he read the definition of vandalism. I still think this is a case of WP:BRD and WP:ONUS, which should be settled through discussion, not edit war. Cheers, -- Nudve (talk) 16:21, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Al Husayni
I see you have noted the passage in Huneidi, and wonder why you refrain from providing the relevant text, now that I have reverted to the hitherto unsourced passage (I never thought this required documentation, it is so widely known).

In any case, you proposed a good solid edit. I.e. after 'Palestinians. .were recruited' etc. ref =Sahar Huneidi, A Broken Trust: Herbert Samuel, Zionism and the Palestinians, Library of Modern Middle East Studies, v.15, I.B.Tauris, 2001 p.35

Why the hesitancy? Nishidani (talk) 10:27, 21 September 2008 (UTC)