User talk:Paulrach/Archive 1

This section of my UserPage concerns a debate with ROGNNTUDJUU! over a userbox, and the EU. This user is someone who refused to identify himself or where he was from. But readily attacked anyone who disagreed with his point of view even if he is factually incorrect. ROGNNTUDJUU! started the debate on this page and many others. Admittedly he did make for an amusing debater.

Bad manners
Why do you insult the citizens of other countries? Imagine someone had a user box like yours on the EU and UN on the US or Nepal. It's just bad manners. ROGNNTUDJUU! 19:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Response Thank you for your kind comments. I have carefully considered them and decided that I will leave my page just as it is, but thank you for your concern.

My reasoning for this is as follows (and it is my reasoning, I might be wrong but these are my choices.) Both the EU and the UN were born out of the horrors of WWII, and had at their heart good intentions. However, 'good intentions' is not a secure foundation for any organisation.

EU The EU is an unelected body that decrees laws upon individual self governing and democratically led nations. The EU without any democratic process changed itself from a free-trade organisation into a political entity. While perporting to be the flag bearers for free trade, it is only if it suits the EUs misguided purposes. One example is with Mauratanian camel farmers. The EU could help revolutionise the lives of these farmers by opening up the whole european market to them, however, because of the 'regulations' they don't!

The EU has also allowed German and French power companies to take over the european market place while at the same time allowing the French marketplace to remain closed to outside competition.

Just two examples of why I don't trust the EU.

UN Since the inception of the UN it is reported that we have only had one year of peace. We have seen the genocides in Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia. We have seen the cold war, the Iran-Iraq war, we've seen the world come to the bring of nuclear war on numerous occassions. We've seen the rise of HIV, we've seen the poor response to the tsunami of 2004, we've seen the horrors of famine in east Africa. We've seen Nelson Mandela spent years in prison for his belief, and we've seen Robert Mugabe destroy his country because of his.

My belief that the UN is impotent is based on the evidence of it's own actions.

I believe in free trade and democracy. I believe in peace and equality for all. I believe everyone has the right to make their own choices but also that we must take responsibility for our actions. But I also believe that I have the right to express my opinions in the way I choose fit. Be it a userbox or running naked down the street with the Union Jack tatooed on by bum. My opinion, my choice.Paulrach 16:57, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You have all my respect for your legitimate concerns about both unions. In particular I agree with you about the agricultural regulations which are just a shame. As to your distrust of France and Germany, it seems to me that you perceive their faults while the UK reduction in payments goes unnoticed. Any government does things one may disagree with. You should not forget that on the other hand the EU has done a lot to spread economic prosperity and civil liberties to the continent that had previously been very diverse in its development. Some people even identify more as Europeans than as nationals of their country as they might distrust their government. Some countries had to work hard in order to join the union. I do not believe you want to offend them while there are so many respectful ways to raise your points. The EU does not exist in itself, it is run by freely elected governments. If you do not like it you are free to vote for a party that is against the EU.
 * The UN template was deleted as it violated wikipedia policy that user templates should not be divisive. Mentioning the Iran-Iraq war is a bit ironic in my eyes given it was the UN who finally mediated for a ceasefire. The UNHCR and the UN food agencies help to allieviate the misery of millions every year. Clearly not enough, mainly restricted by national governments' preferences. You should not expect too much from a union that is bound by the vetoes of the five nations of those who hold the biggest arsenals of mass destructions of the world, yours among them. ROGNNTUDJUU! 17:38, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, you seem to be spending a great deal of time and energy arguing petty points...similar in fact to both the EU and UN! The priveledge of living in a free democratic society is that I have the right to choose my own opinion. I have the right to express myself in any way I see fit. In the UK if you want to burn a flag...you can. If you want to march in protest...you can. If someone wants to identify themselves as european, thats fine by me. If someone wants to identify themselves as Norwegian, thats okay. If someone wants to critise the English, fine. That's freedom of expression.
 * If people get offended by my opinion, especially something as trivial as this, I have nothing but pity for them, they need to simply grow up. But then Europe is a very immature place. The need for the excessive regulation that so plagues our region is a symptom of that immaturity. The nanny state mentality of the UK is a prime example, with a need for such petty control over so many areas of the lives of population. You have to live here to believe it.
 * However, more than what you think of my opinion. The real tragedy is that you think that conformity is preferable to diversity. Personally I enjoy the rich diversity of Europe. It should be noted that anything that removes diversity from a system will ultimately cause the destruction of that system. Be it a culture, an ecosystem or a gene pool. Supression of cultural diversity is at the heart of all dictatorial systems. (Look at the Spanish Inquistion, the Nazi era, even what ZANU-PF is currently doing in Zimbabwe as prime examples of this.) Paulrach 19:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I expressly wrote I respect your opinion. What I do not respect is your lack of respect for the official symbols others identify with: user respect. I enjoy the cultural diversity of Europe - I even speak Catalan. I would not enjoy if I had so many other Europeans still living at levels of economic and civil liberty development not at all comparable to mine and I expressly wrote that. ROGNNTUDJUU! 20:34, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree I do not respect the EU. In fact I do not respect any official EU symbols. Though I do respect the individuals who make up the rich tapestry that is Europe. In fact I don't hold with any symbols. The crucifx, the swastika, the star of David, the crescent, the hammer and sickle are some of the symbols that at one time or another have been used in divisive ways.
 * I am a Christian, but don't wear a crucifix. Because the symbol, in that case a cross, is not what I believe in, there is more to being a Christian than a small cross. And that's the same with a flag. A flag is just a coloured piece of cloth, it really does not mean anything. Whether or not I have an EU flag crossed out or not, I still believe that I do not trust the EU as far as I can throw it. I still believe that the EU is an incompetent bureacracy. I still believe that, contrary to your argument, the EU has done very little to improve the civil liberties of any nation.
 * Let us take your argument about symbols to an extreme. Lets say that Football Club badges are the same as official symbols, they are symbols after all....does that mean that chanting and taunting of the opposition fans is offensive? Maybe we should stop the World Cup just in case we offend anyone? Now I know those arguments are ridiculous, but to me so are your arguments.
 * As I wrote earlier - If people get offended by my opinion, especially something as trivial as this, I have nothing but pity for them, they need to simply grow up.
 * Your arguments are symptomatic of the immature political state of Europe. Europe has many young nations born out of the tragedy of war and civil war. Europe has many burgeoning democracies. Like children, their people and political ideologies need to mature. However, like overbearing parents, the smothering nature of the EU will only repress the development of these young nations. Democracy and government can not be imposed on any nation, events in Iraq show the failure of the policies of the US and UK in this direction.
 * But to be honest, I'm not really bothered about your views and opinions, after all they are just that, yours. However, what does bother me is your anoninimity. So until you put your identity to them I have absolutley no respect for your opinions. I once heard it said that cowards hide behind rules, regualtions and children. Likewise your views and opinions are cowardly because it is easy to be a critic when no one can see you face. Stop hiding, and stand up for your convictions.Paulrach 22:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You do not agree because you do not understand. Your crossing shows a lag of respect for the people represented, many of whom identify with the union and might feel offended. I am very sorry that you do not see the EU helped Greece, Spain, and Portugal to get rid of their dictatorships and prosper economically. So all the money that went there did nothing to help? Even Turkey that has not even yet joined abolished torture and the death penalty. All the newly acceded eastern countries enjoy democracy. The Ukraine, Belarus and Russia have serious difficulties with democracy. Just a coincidence? Croatia gave in to hand over war criminals. Not an accomplishment of EU pressure? You have all my respect for your opinion that the EU has some serious drawbacks. I find offensive to express this by crossing an official symbol that stands for much more than those. ROGNNTUDJUU! 01:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi there, once again you have failed to identify yourself, once again you are hiding behind your own prejudices. If you are going to be critical, please get your facts right. Greece, Spain and Portugal had democratically elected governments at least ten years before the inception of the EU in 1992. You are right, all the newly acceded countries are democracies, but they were democracies before they joined the EU and not because of it. Lech Walesa and Vaclav Havel are just two of the true heroes of the democracies. They were paying for democracy with their freedoms, long before the EU was born. The Ukraine, Belarus and Russia are having difficulties but they are just growing pains, they will grow up. And this process was started by Gorbachev and furthered by Yeltin, also started before the formation of the EU. And wasn't it NATO who were the driving force behind the resolution of the conflict in the former Yugoslavia? So in reality the EU's role was minimal.
 * So unless you are going to have valid and accurate arguments, please keep you bigotted and cowardly comments off my page.Paulrach 18:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You are rude. And one of the driving factors of all those countries becoming democracies and ensuring civil liberties was EU influence and the dream of its citizens to become citizens of the EU. Of course they had become democracies before joining the EU, that is a prerequisite. As is ablotion of the death penalty. Turkey followed that in order to join the EU. Had the EU not helped Spain, Portugal and Greece so much in their economic development, the new countries had not had as much hope. ROGNNTUDJUU! 01:37, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi there, we've been missing you. Once again you are incorrect. These countries became democracies before the EXISTENCE of the EU. The idea of EU was created with the signing of the Maastrict treaty in 1992, it only became reality in the years that followed. So it would be impossible for the EU to have had any influence before it was created. Please do not confuse the EU with the former EEC, they were seperate organisations with very different goals and ideals. It would be a good idea for you to read the Wikipedia articles on the EU and especially the one on the European Constitution that states that only upon ratification of the constitution will the flag have any legal basis! So you are arguing for something that has all the legitamcy of a football club logo!


 * You keep using terms like democracy and civil liberties as if they were some ideals that the EU aspires to, but does it? Really?. First of all the EU is not democratic (see the article on the constitution for more information on that one!). There is no provision for the people to remove the EU should they choose to. Democracy is giving the people the power to select and also deselect. The EU does not have these provisions, therefore it is not democratic, and has the potential to become authoritarian. Isn't it a bit hypocratic to promote democracy yet not be democratic?


 * Wikipedia states that: "Civil liberties are protections from the power of governments. Examples include the right to life, the right to self defense, the right to a fair trial, the right to own property, the right to privacy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of assembly." I refer you attention to the freedom of speech. Which I am exercising, right now.


 * I remember watching on the TV news when Vaclav Havel stood in Wenclas Square in Prague with millions of Czechs when the communist state collapsed. He did not need the EEC (as it was then) or the UN to protect or promote his civil liberties. Your ascertions that it is the EU who is the great protector of civil liberties is frankly offensive to those from whatever country sacrificed their own civil liberties and often their lives in pursuit of the goal. While the member states of the EEC/EC/EU were arguing about farming subsidies and fishing rights, the likes of Havel and Dubcek were being persecuted. Not once did this organisation that you aspire so greatly to have the guts to make a stand! Freedoms are something greater than what can be legislated for.


 * So please be very careful when you make arguments that are based on inaccurate information. Please be very, very, careful when you minimise the lives of martyrs and people who have paid a price for their beliefs. And please have the manners to tell us who you are and where you come from. Paulrach 09:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The EU is the continuation of the EEC, claiming that the EU did not have anything to do with the development of democracies in Spain, Portugal, Greece and the Eastern countries is just absurd. Had the EEC countries been ruled by US puppet regimes, what would have been the hope of those liberating from their suppressors?
 * Guaranteeing democracy and civil liberties is a prerequisite to join the EU, and it was the EU that made aspirant Turkey abolish the death penalty. Those who fought for freedom in Eastern Europe have all my respect, but the EU also has my respect as many of the Eastern countries have profited from EU help during their introduction of democracy. The EU also played a major role in the developments of Ukraine. If you cannot face that please do not tell others they lack knowledge of facts.
 * This is not about the legal status of a flag, this is about respect. Would you strike out the symbol of a football team?
 * It is entirely irrelevant who I am and where I come from and most users do not write much about this for good reasons. ROGNNTUDJUU! 16:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi there. I refer you to the following statement: EU relations with Ukraine are based on the Partnership and Co-operation Agreement (PCA) which entered into force in 1998 (for an initial ten year period renewable by consent of the parties). This comes froms the EU website. What does it mean? Well it is a partnership on all levels, trade, justice, etc.. This is an equal partnership. The EU gets as much from the Ukraine as they do from the EU.


 * The funny thing is, this is a similar statement to what the EU says about its relationship with Australia. Is the EU the reason that Australia is one of the few countries in the world that has one of the most prosperous economies in the world at the moment, (more prosperous and stable than any in Europe!)? Is the EU the reason why Australia is a beacon for civil liberties? Is the EU the reason why Australia is doing a fantastic job breaking free of the chains of imperialism? No, of course not? And that is the same for all of the other countries you cite.


 * Again please get your facts right: The EEC was a primarily a trading organisation founded by the Treaty of Rome. This became the European Community with the combination of the EEC, the European Coal and Steel Community, and the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom). These dealt mainly with trade and economic matters. The EU on the other hand is a political entity, with parliment, courts and bank created by the Maastrict Treaty. The EU and EEC are not the same thing at all. Sure they EEC was the forerunner to the EU but they are totally different. And again most of the countries in eastern Europe became democracies without the help of the EU. In the case of the Czech republic. They became a democracy, with a free election, just 46 days after the removal of the dictatorship....all without the help of the EU.


 * You keep going on about respect. Respect is something that is earned and not given. Now you may think that the EU has earned your respect, that is your choice. My choice that I do not respect the EU, I do not think it has earned it, it might with time...but time will tell.
 * Like myself though, for many across the region it has not earned theirs. After all 49% of the French electorate said no to the ratification of the Maastrict Treaty, the population of Denmark rejected it outright. Also the majority of the French rejected the constitution as well. Not a lot of respect there, is there?


 * The relevancy of who you are is this: you insult me and many others on Wikipedia. You call me rude, bad mannered, yet do not have the manners to identify yourself. It seems you do this to anyone who disagrees with you, now that is both rude and bad mannered. With your knowledge of wikipedia yet relatively young life span you are probably a sock puppet. But, hey, each to their own. But you show your true colours with your anti-American jibe. Please remember that most of western Europe was rebuilt with over $13 billion of US aid.  It is funny really how you, and much of Europe forget this. What with this and your revisionist view on history, you really are quite amusing.Paulrach 21:41, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The green box shows you lack the respect for others that I asked for. I am not incorrect about any facts, and I do not agress anyone because of different opinions. If you choose to lie about others and think this is funny you reveal a lot about yourself. Respect for me is something everyone is entitled to get, even those who try hard not to get it like you. If you cannot face the fact that the EU helped the Ukraine and others to introduce democracy then don't face it. Here you have a picture of someone who risks his life in order to show that he would be happy if he could join the EU: Belarusian demonstrant. Your comparison with Australia is just ridiculous, and I have friends in the US and have nothing against those millions of people who are as sick of their criminal government as most of the rest of the world. Good bye. ROGNNTUDJUU! 01:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi there. A few facts for you today. Fact: Ukraine: Independence was achieved in 1991 with the collapse of the Soviet Union, and Ukraine was a founding member of the Commonwealth of Independent States. That's Wikipedia for you! Again pre-EU. And remember the EEC was not the same as the EU!
 * Fact: this was a result of the Gorbachev and Yeltsin legacy! The EUs partnership with Ukraine is bsaed on trade. We want their oil and gas, and they want to sell it to us.


 * It is funny you mention Belarus. Fact: Do you know how the EU is currently helping to promote democracy in that troubled nation? Sanctions!!! Now let me see, in the history of the world has sanctions ever helped anyone? I bet the impoverished of Soweto would think not!


 * Fact: The Green Box is just to separate this debate and to put it into context. So is it okay for you to make alterations on your page, but not for me to do the same on mine? A bit hypocritical don't you think?
 * Fact: A look at the history section on your page and that of the pages where you have commented on shows that you attack anyone who disagrees with your point of view.


 * Fact: There are several hundred edits and re-edits on you page which shows how you deal with people who disagree with you.


 * Okay tell me where have I lied?


 * My comparison with Australia was a little far fetched, but if you had bothered to check the official EU documentation you would maybe learn something! The primary relationship that the EU has with Ukraine is based on the same relationship the EU has with Australia. Fact!


 * Your assertions that the EU has helped Spain, Portugal, Greece, the Ukraine and most of Eastern Europe become democracies are completely ridiculous and are without real foundation. Your arguments and statements are factually incorrect. Just check the time lines, check the historical facts! Check what it says on Wikipedia! Or are the facts that are on Wikipedia not good enough for you.


 * And just a final thought, who are the EU's two biggest trading partners? USA and China. To use your terminology a 'criminal government' and another country with questionable human rights! And after all trade is the reason for the EU's conceptionPaulrach 20:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

 This user thinks it is disrespectful and rude to make comments about other people and their beliefs without having the manners to identify yourself!!! A person who does not stand up and own up to what they believe is a coward and a fool!!!


 * I already told you that saying the EU did nothing to help Ukraine and others to get independence and then democracy is just nitpicking and ignorant. The same countries who now build the EU were already cooperating and followed most of the principles the follow today when they helped those countries. The EU helps Belarussians by controlling the elections and by showing the people that they matter to us. They know that the EU helped a lot in the preparation of fair elections and setting up of parties in Ukraine and count on us, you saw the picture. The sanctions on Belarus consist of prohibiting criminal politicians from travel in the EU, no economic sanctions that would hit the people. I agree with you that economic sanctions do not generally help the people, although South Africa is sometimes seen as an exception because apartheid was abolished when white South Africans saw it was no longer economically beneficial.
 * Your green box shows disrespect. You are allowed to make alterations on your page as every user is. Showing you disrespect others does not increase the respect you earn yourself. Nor does calling others hypocritical while twisting facts about what they accuse you of.
 * I already told you, I never attack anyone who disagrees with me, I just ask for respect.
 * Do not tell me the EU helps Australia with setting up a democracy or negotiations with those they get their oil from.
 * On the one hand you say sanctions do not help. On the other hand you complain about trade with the US and China. Trade is not a means to impose values on others. But fair trade is helpful in spreading freedom and communication. The more Chinese get in contact with others, through trade for example, the more China will open up and become a free country. ROGNNTUDJUU! 00:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi there. Learn to read the English language and then understand the English language before you start to make incorrect comments.


 * I did not say that the EU was helping Australia set up democracy. I said : The primary relationship that the EU has with Ukraine is based on the same relationship the EU has with Australia. Fact! If you don't believe me check out the EU's own website. And there you will also find how little official influence the EU has in Ukraine. So I may be nitpicking but then again if you call the truth nitpicking well I really pity you.


 * When I was talking about the US and China, I was posing a rhetorical question. My apologies if that escaped you! Rhetorical questions are part of good debate and discussion. Again the subtle nuances of the English language seem to elude you.


 * Not once have I twisted any facts. They are available from the pages of Wikipedia.


 * You may think the EU is fantastic and a wonderful organisation. I do not. I have not seen one shread of evidence to believe that a pan-European politcal organisation is in the long term beneficial. You may disagree. Fine. The circumstances in you country might say different. However, once the new countries start to have their resources and funds taken from them to pay for an excessive bureaucracy that in all reality is at the heart of the EU. This is my point of view. So respect my point of view. But please do not give the EU credit for things it did not do. You might call my disagring with you disrespectful, but in all honesty I don't care. I am a scientist by training and look at the evidence and the truth in making my judgements! So respect that.


 * I look at the truth objectively. So when I see other user complaining about your attacking them, I draw my own conclusions.


 * Oh, and by the way the election monitors in Belarus were not provided by the EU, but by the OSCE which is an global organisation. If you don't believe me, the facts are available on their website.


 * So goodbye for now. And just to make things clear: I dont not respect the EU. I do not respect the way you behave. Paulrach 21:35, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You are disrespectful again claiming I did not understand the English language. You had asked the rhetorical question Is the EU the reason that Australia is one of the few countries in the world that has one of the most prosperous economies in the world at the moment, (more prosperous and stable than any in Europe!)? So I replied do not tell me that the EU helps Australia with setting up a democracy or negotiations with those they get their oil from, indicating that the relationship the EU has with Australia is very different from those the EU has with the Ukraine, in spite of the text you found on the website. Looking at the truth objectively sometimes is more difficult that cutting and pasting texts from websites. And by the way, you are wrong about Australia's economic prosperity, it comes twelvth in the world, after seven European countries, four of which are EU members. Nominally there are even nine EU members ahead.
 * I already answered your claims about the US and China, if you have anything important to reply to that except for boasting about your stylistic brilliance please do so.
 * If you had been Greek or Spanish or Romanian, would you have preferred to watch others building a prosperous organization guaranteeing civil liberties while you kept up your dictatorship and economic misery or would you have opted for "excessive bureaucracy"?
 * The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, as the name indicates, is not a global but a European organization that has Canada and the US as members because of their role during WWII. It closely cooperates with the EU. Of course Lukashenko prefers to have election monitors from an organization that has as an influential member another country that is not a real democracy, Russia. ROGNNTUDJUU! 22:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It is really no point discussing anything further with you. You twist words, and you refuse to read what I have said. This could be because you don't understand the language, the context, or it could be because you refuse to see anyone else point of view: I suspect a bit of all three.


 * You said:Looking at the truth objectively sometimes is more difficult that cutting and pasting texts from websites.  I agree. I have not cut and pasted. Your problem is that you just did not like it when I corrected all your arguments with a truthful fact based statement. Furthermore, you don't seem to like it when the EU's own publications go against your own arguments.


 * You are not going to like this bit. It is just me using those darn pesky websites again. But the OSCE website says : With 55 States drawn from Europe, Central Asia and America, the OSCE is the world's largest regional security organization, bringing comprehensive and co-operative security to a region that stretches from Vancouver to Vladivostok. It offers a forum for political negotiations and decision-making in the fields of early warning, conflict prevention, crisis management and post-conflict rehabilitation, and puts the political will of the participating States into practice through its unique network of field missions. Now if that's not global I really, and honestly don't know what is!


 * I really am truly sorry that your worldview is so narrow. And that your approach to discussion is so 'pigheaded'. You are really going to struggle in this big bad world that we live in. Your view of the world is very ideallised, where good conquers evil, right combats wrong. Where the EU and the UN are the saviours of the human race. Unfortunately that is the stuff of fairy tales.


 * For people in the UK, we look at our once great nation in shock and horror as we see what it has become. For many in the UK they still look back to the glory days...we won the world cup....in 1966! For me that doesn't really bother me. But I do know this. While we are giving away billions of pounds to the EU, we have problems with hospitals, crime, education. So please forgive me if I and many of my countrymen do not take the concerns of the people in Greece (or wherever)too seriously.


 * And I suspect that is the view of many millions of people across Europe. Is giving away the inheritances of our children to an organisation that is so wasteful, really beneficial? And think about this for a while...can the countries in eastern Europe really afford to be giving their wealth away to fund childrens playgrounds in Sheffield? That doesn't need an answer, but do take time to look at what the organisation really does!


 * So I have a very different view of the EU to you. Deal with it.


 * You really need to simply grow up. We live in a complex world. Just because someone doesn't agree with your world view doesn't view make them wrong. Just because I have a differing view of what 'respect' is, doesn't make me wrong. If you find that disrespectful, well so be it.


 * Who are you to tell me what respect is? Please remember that I have put my identity to my views. You refuse to. I think that is disrespectful! I think that is cowardly. You might not think so. I really don't care. You cannot lecture me and try to impose your ideology onto me. That is what dictators do!
 * Paulrach 11:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You are well aware of the fact that we do not have a language problem, and your condescending way of writing does not reflect well upon you.
 * The OSCE operates globally, that does not contradict what I wrote.
 * Interesting that the one point you choose not to comment on is the fact that you were wrong about the EU's economic prosperity.
 * The UK largely benefits from trade with other EU members, payments are ridiculous in comparison, and benefits would not be as great had the EU and EEC had not helped so much in the economic development of many of its newer members. What would Ireland look like if there had not been the EU? As its closest neighbour, the UK benefits a lot from Ireland's newly acquired prosperity. If you want to cut down costs, how about stopping to follow criminal US administrations in their wars of aggression?
 * Eastern Europeans paying for playgrounds in the UK is just ridiculous. The EU helps underdeveloped regions all over Europe, and as the eastern countries are by far poorer than the previous members of course they benefit more from this. And once they have catched up it will be to the advantage of all of us, just as in the cases of Spain, Portugal, and Greece.
 * Again, while you write in a disrespectful way and ignore wikipedia's rule not to personally attack, I only ask for respect and engage in a debate, there is nothing wrong with that. ROGNNTUDJUU! 15:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not disagree with your point regarding the prosperity of European countries. But that was never the purpose of my argument. My argument was that the EU's own publications say that Australia and Ukraine have a similar relationship with the EU.
 * Europe, in general, has always been prosperous, admitedly there have been some poorer partners. But it was only with the 19 and 20th Centuries that the power centres of Europe moved west, previous to that power and wealth were held in St. Petersburg, Kiev, Budapest and to some lesser degree Istanbul.


 * You wrote: The OSCE operates globally, that does not contradict what I wrote. However, your original argument was that the OSCE was a European organisation. It isn't. As the text I quoted said, the OSCE IS a global organisation not just a European one, made up of 55 nations from across the globe.
 * And that was just one example of why I have continued this discussion on. My main argument has been that you have been assigning credit to the EU where it does not belong.


 * This bit is important: If you had looked at my past discussions you would see that my main argument has been that the EEC/EU has been primarily a trade organisation. My personal concern, and if this has not come across in my arguments, I apologise, is that I strongly disagree with the fact that the EU has become political.
 * And based on the historical facts I strongly disagree that as a politcal organisation the EU has had any influence on bringing democracy and civil liberties to the continent. This is just absurd.
 * My argument has been that it was the people of those countries themselves, that brought about democracy and not the EU. From the so called Velvet Revolution in the Czekoslovakia to the more violent revolution in Romania.


 * The EU might be the guardian of civil liberties now, especially with the Charter of Human Rights etc. However, I suspect that once the national interests of countries start being compromised that may change. We are already seeing in the UK where people are trying to use this legislation against the spirit in which it was written.


 * However, I do agree that trade is important. I have never said otherwise. My point with citing the US and China was this: we have a tendancy to be hypocritical when it comes to trade - we will trade with China yet we will try and impose sanctions on Belarus. It is this level of hypocracy that I was highlighting. Please note: Personally, I have no problems in trade with China, US or whoever. And you were right, trade with China does have the potential to influence. And trade will help the countries of Eastern Europe just as much as it has benefitted the UK.


 * The question on Ireland is more complex. The EU is helping Ireland now. From the UK's point of view, Ireland entering into the EU could be seen as a bad thing, but that is down to the severing of the UK's imperialistic past ties. But for Ireland, it is certainly benefiting...but through trade. The irish have been fighting for democracy for over a century! But that is a totally different topic.


 * And as to saving money through not joining in the Iraq war. I fully agree. But to pull out now would be as disastrous as starting the war. But then again quite a few of the countries in Europe joined in with that war didn't they? The US, whether you agree with their politics or not, still has quite a lot of influence in Europe.
 * But surely, the waste and excesses of the EU should really be curbed, especially if the EU is to develop?


 * However, on the question of respect. Let us disagree. Because while you may think that my writing style is disrespectful. I find that your unwillingness to identify yourself is disrespectful. And be careful when you start quoting Wikipedia policy...I have seen what other users have been saying about you!!! Have a good day.Paulrach 20:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * First time I remember that you do not attack me. Nice.
 * You had written that Australia was more prosperous and stable than any country in Europe. I refuted you. Australia and the Ukraine have a similar relationship as far as their status is concerned. The relationship is however very different when it comes to actual interactions, as the Ukraine needs EU help in setting up a working democracy and emancipating itself from Russia. The EU did help a lot, if you like it or not. Of course it was only help, of course Ukrainians themselves had to decide how they wanted their country to be run. But help can be very helpful and was in this case as in many others.
 * Ever since the creation of the EU and its preceding organizations have it been the member countries that were most prosperous in Europe, and many European countries were helped a lot in their economic development after joining the organization. Norway and Switzerland were the only exceptions, largely due to special conditions due to in one case wise decisions on investments in the oil industry - and luck in having oilfields - and a banking secret that makes the Swiss profit from illegal activities all over the globe.
 * The OSCE is a European organisation, just look at the name. It is not nations "from across the globe" as you write, ever looked at the map? No Australia/Oceania, no Southern America, no Carribean, no Africa. It is just Europe and because of WWII the US, Canada and former Soviet republics. And the OSCE and EU do cooperate in areas like election monitoring.
 * I had already understood that you strongly disagree with the fact that the EU has become political and does no longer just focus on trade. I am happy that European countries have seen that cooperation in politics is pivotal in order to make full use of trade. How would you trade with the Eastern countries or with those on the Balkans if there still were socialism and war?
 * Had Turkey not longed for becoming an EU member Öcalan would have been sentenced to death. That is not "absurd", that is reality. The preconditions for joining pressured many countries to end questionable practices.
 * There are no trade sanctions on Belarus, EU politicians have explicitly stated that they think this would only hurt the people, thus there are only sanctions on questionable politicians who are denied Visa for entry to the EU.
 * I agree that just pulling out of Iraq would be as disastrous as starting the war. Justice would be to hand over the command to Iraqis and just help them to ensure law and order as long as they need it. And try all those who were responsible for the war of aggression. As the UK system is apparently unable to handle the case domestically Blair and his fellows should be sent to the ICC in The Hague. I admit this is unrealistic. Shame on those who reelect criminals. Indeed, the US influence in Europe led to the catastrophee. Fortunately the US lost most of its credit now. Unfortunately, the reputation of the whole western value system has tremendously suffered from this, and now we have an unprecedented number of fundamentalists all over the world, including Europe. And a tremendous number of disillusioned people in Eastern Europe who once thought the American Dream could come true for them, too, and now realize that they do not share dreams with many from the US.
 * You are indeed not the only one who attacked me for asking to respect others. I am proud that this does not make me refrain from trying to convince others that respect is beneficial for all of us. I already succeeded in a number of cases. By the way, as we originally came here in order to write an encyclopedia, would you be willing to help me with a particularly troublesome article? G33. ROGNNTUDJUU! 00:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, not had chance to reply fully this week due to work patterns. I will with the article. I have done a bit of reseach but can find very little on G33. G20 has much more. Do you have a plan as to how you would like to see it develop? Paulrach 07:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi there, no, I have no particular plan. I think whatever additional information you find would be fine. Seen my new boxes? ROGNNTUDJUU! 12:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)