User talk:Pc13/Archive

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Nissan Bluebird Sylphy
Hi Pc13: thanks for your great edits—always enjoy seeing your name on the car pages. Just wanted to let you know I changed Pulsar and Sunny back on the Nissan Wingroad page, and in case you think I'm an idiot, I thought I'd explain: while the Pulsar sedan might not have been offered in Japan, the Sunny sold there, while related, is considered to be part of a different lineage to the Bluebird Sylphy. If you check out the rear doors, they are a different shape—that's the main giveaway. To put it another way, the Bluebird Sylphy and Wingroad are on the N16 platform and the Sunny (namely the last one sold in Japan that you are probably thinking of) is on the B15 platform. Some Sunnys today are on N16 but these are not sold in Japan, according to the Nissan Japan site. Of course, I'm willing to discuss if you still think I'm wrong on this. Stombs 21:44, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi there—sorry I didn't reply instantly. I had a project to work on and they didn't have broadband! Anyway, I think you are right that B15 and N16 are related. I know Renault had been upset about Nissan having so many different platforms and began to rationalize, so your suspicion is probably correct. I don't know for sure how close the two are but the wheelbase is a good giveaway. :) BTW I'm not on that other forum you mentioned but I think I should pop by and see what he's writing! Stombs 12:18, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

nbsp's on Fiat Croma
Hey there, why all the non-breaking space entities in Fiat Croma? &mdash;Neuropedia 06:48, 2005 Feb 1 (UTC)

Mazda Levante
Thank you! Had been bugging me for a while. Stombs 22:59, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

Lexus IS200
Thanks for ur comments. The Kw figures are incorrect & I'll redo them later. The problem lies with the horsepower figures. Yes, JIS uses ps as measuring unit, & so does the DIN standard (but they call it hp for export markets). In the beginning, I just put the actual JIS ps figure (e.g. 210ps for the 3S-GE engine on the RS200), but it was edited to 206hp by another member. Seeing that uniformity is needed in the measuring unit, I converted all ps figures into hp figures. I also think a distinction needs to be made on the standard the power & torque are measured, as there are subtle differences between JIS, DIN, SAE & ECE. By standard I mean the conditions of which the power is measured, e.g. ambient temperature, air pressure etc, not the measuring unit. As for the 1G-FE engine in the IS200, the power output is JIS 160ps, so it translates to 158hp measured under JIS standard. Btw, I never said the RS200 is available officially outside Japan.

Thanks!! I converted into hp cos a lot of my pages on JDM models were edited from ps into hp by other writers.

BMW 3 Series
Uh, oh, did I break the page? I thought it looked good - I use Firefox. Maybe it doesn't. We can revert it... --SFoskett 14:17, May 13, 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, I guess you're right. I've formatted it more normally now.  --SFoskett 15:02, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

Vector
Thanks for tackling that Vector page. There are a couple more besides that need lots of help. That new user is adding lots of text, but much of it is useless... --SFoskett 13:37, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Hyperion
I never put the numbers in order because I was too lazy to do so. You should have seen how bad the entry was before I revised it. The section on Supreme Power was almost 12 paragraphs long and nearly unreadable. As far as using the word "trendish" if you have a better way to phrase it, go right ahead. The article was considerably far more NPOV before I edited than after. Oh, and Hyperion (I) was a professional artist and as he is the equivalent of Superman and Superman is brilliant (not a genius just very smart), you can kind of deduce that Hyperion would have to be too. They wouldn't make him an exact duplicate except for his brain, after all. Thanks for your efforts. Your revision of the Supreme Power entry portion is an improvement.ScifiterX 05:27, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Wolverine compromise section
I've set up a section on Talk:Wolverine (comics) and would appreciate your input. Steve block 13:29, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Mugen Motorsports
Thanks for fixing my misconceptions! -- BD2412 talk 15:11, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Supreme Power
Nope. (ask an editor at Marvel if you don't believe me, you can contact them via website). According to Marvel Nighthawk I is the Squadron Supreme version and II is the Squadron Sinister, Defenders version. That is OFFICIAL.

As far as the stuff for Doctor Spectrum being out of order. Then put it in the right order. There wase very little to that article before I started it. Its going of annoying when I go through all of that effort and you pop up and complain about something so irrelevant. You don't like the order its in? You can put it in the right order. No one is stopping you. ScifiterX 19:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Look, I appreciate your input but your coming on my talk page and demanding that I only edit entries the way you see fit is way out of line. The Roman Numerals are the way Marvel seperates different variations of characters. Its no big deal. ScifiterX 23:16, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

The Character history I add for the Supreme Power Doctor Spectrum was deleted ! Why ?--Brown Shoes22 16:30, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Talk:Supreme Power Arc III, The 1st take ! Add, edit or redo the Plotline

ThunderbirdExiles (comics)
Yeah, I speedied it. I was just leaving it as evidence of Exiles03's odd behaviour for the wikiproject to see. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 15:35, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Dance Music Artists
Thanks for making the corrections. I've already made other corrections in some of the other postings I made. By the way I had to update and modify some of the other artists listings that were made by other posters because there more info on these acts. User_talk:Robert Moore - 23:05(PDT), August 16, 2005

List of automotive superlatives
Thanks for the new automotive superlatives! Nice to have you here! --SFoskett 14:05, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * It was nice to see more additions but why remove the &amp;nbsp; tags? They're suggested in the WikiStyle manual...  And in&sup3; is preferred to cu.in.  Just an FYI.--SFoskett 13:36, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't want the bias, but can't ignore that I'm an American of limited experience! I didn't feel good about calling the 860 a road car...  The 125 isn't a road car either - good catch!  The Ferrari 166 was, though, so its 1995cc V12 is probably the smallest.  I assumed someone would know of a larger I4 than the 2.8L Atlas, but I couldn't find one quickly.  Thanks for catching it with some larger examples!  --SFoskett 14:56, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

You got me on the most powerful! I was just looking up the Eldorado ETC when you made the Seville STS edit. Nice catch! --SFoskett 17:06, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what I can really do about. If he's vandalizing pages, I can block his IP temporarily. But there's not much to do about someone who just doesn't follow the rules apart from reverting the edits. Since this is an anon IP, I think the presumption of quality for his edits is far lower than for a real account... --SFoskett 17:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics/exemplars
I worked up ideas on how to structure comics related articles from the previous discussions and placed them at WikiProject Comics/exemplars. I also copied relevant discussion to the talk page. Please feel free to comment and amend. Steve block talk 23:09, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

All Star Batman and Robin
Y'know, I thought it was Brown Shoes22 who had typed "Dick Grayson is then taken by a still somewhat inexperienced Batman for the first time." Proofreading is your friend :) - SoM 16:56, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Comics Collaboration of the Fortnight
As a member of WikiProject Comics, I thought you might be interested in the Comics Collaboration of the Fortnight we have set up. Please feel free to vote on the articles listed, although bear in mind that a vote for a particular article means you are pledging to help improve the article. The goal of the collaboration is to improve articles to Featured Article status, as we feel Comics is under-represented in that area. Thanks for your help. Steve block talk 15:52, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Suzuki Baleno GTi
Could you please stop deleting the Suzuki Baleno GTi from the hothatch page? It does indeed exist. And you could have come to the same conclusion simply by using a google query.

It has a 1839 cm3 engine producing 121 HP.

For more information see this page: http://www.autoweek.nl/carbasedata.php?cache=no&vpos=&id=13692&cache=no

2005 USA-Race
DNS stands for when a car does not take a a race start. Makes sense. By having Ret listed that mean the driver has actually started in that race and will count a race starts towards the driver race start tally.. The formation lap does not count as a lap at all as it is not added towards the race classification. For when does a driver 'start' a Grand Prix? To my mind he does so only if he is on the grid when the flag drops or light goes green at the final start. Should a driver have failed to compete the formation lap, for instance (as was the case with Prost at Imola in 1991), he cannot truly be said to have started the race. In the case of restarted events such as the British GP in 1986, poor Jacques Laffite certainly did start the race, but this was declared null and void and he was not presented to take the restart, which is the only one that counts. For true official race results is best to get them off www.forix.com as they receive their race results from the officials. Yes I know formula1.com is official but not 100% official in statistics. If you decide to leave it as Ret then you must give all the drivers a race start count!

I have spend hours in researching and asking many F1 statistician who are famous and know more on Grand Prix. All the statisian I have contacted and got back told me it is actually DNS not Ret, they also have mention the formula1.com is not very accurate with their race results. The formula1.com is incorrect as listing as ret instead of DNS for 2005-USA. This were the responses from the following people. Renowned F1 statistians, like David Hayhoe or Autosport's Peter Higham agree that all Michelin drivers were DNS in 2005-USA, but consider a RET if a driver didn't made a re-start, for example. That was the common view in the past - no contemporary source listed Lauda as a DNS in 1976-Germany - and they simply ignore the current "null and void" FIA rule. I totally agree to change it as DNS not Ret as they didn't take part on the first lap.

Here is a intersting fact. Button will start his 100th race start in the 2005-China race. But according to wikipedia when doing the math by adding all Button race starts it would be his 101st race start in China as Button has been listed as Ret instead of DNS for this year 2005-USA race. Does this make sense to you. That means wikipedia will have an extra race start for all the drivers who have no started in the 2005 USA race have an extra race start which wouldn't be official to the drivers stats.

I am trying to help you all to have accurate data on Formula 1 on wikipedia. I DO beleive the formula1.com site doesn't not give out accurate race classifications. As I have been involved with FORIX and autosport.com for many years as my job is to look for incorrect data on their server. Andreas 04 October 09:36

New Avengers discussion
I know things are getting heated here, but please, PLEASE assume good faith and be civil. I was just trying to get Avengersfan to calm down and take a step back from the situation. I really don't see why you needed to reply with an accusation. Perhaps we ALL should take a few deep breaths and a step back, alright? Cool heads are going to solve this, I assure you. --InShaneee 16:02, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The Blur
I reverted the Blur -- as I fully noted on the Whizzer "Discussion" page, as we are supposed to on major changes -- because The Blur does not belong in a category for the superhero The Whizzer, having never used that name.

No one looking for The Blur who didn't already know who he was would look for him under The Whizzer.

The relationship -- an alternate-universe (MAX) version OF an alnerate-universe (Squadron Supreme) version of a Golden Age hero -- is extremely tangential. Any explanations as to the Blur's background can be addressed in his own entry. Please do not revert unilaterally without Discussion. -- Tenebrae 13:34, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Featured article for December 25th
I noticed that you have listed yourself as an atheist Wikipedian. You will probably be interested to know that Brian0918 has nominated Omnipotence paradox as the front page article for December 25th. You can vote on this matter here. The other suggestion being supported by others for that date is Christmas, although Raul654 has historically been against featuring articles on the same day as their anniversary/holiday. AngryParsley (talk) (contribs) 08:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Comic books
Sorry I wiped out your changes on comic book. What I was trying to fix was only some vandalism, but in the time between my finding it, and fixing it, you had added some good content. Not sure how this can be avoided, unfortunately, except that it may help to do vandalism fixes separately from major edits. It may also be related to a cache problem I had yesterday which meant I was seeing out of date content. I've fixed that. Apologies again for the inconvenience. Notinasnaid 13:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Sfoskett auto chat
I added a reference for the US Suzuki SX4. That was the first I heard of it myself! As for the Simca engine, it should DEFINITELY be renamed IMHO. I couldn't find the name except for people calling it the "1100" but if that's the name, then that's the name! Thanks! --SFoskett 14:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Asking for help !
I'm asking for your help, Hat in my hand ! Help me fix the Comicsbooktitlebox goto Template:Comicsbooktitlebox to fix box! To look at the BOX goto [] and add new part of you like feel free to do!--Brown Shoes22 04:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Dauer 962 and Audi pages
Information I was able to uncover does seem to indicate that the 962 counted for production status, as Dauer was offically recognized as a manufacturer. I think that some serious discussion needs to take place about it's status as a production car.

As far as the Audi pages are concerned, thanks for the commendation. I meant to re-add information about European engines but have not been able to dig up much information, I'm in North America and those models were never avaiable here with those engines. Please add whatever information you have, as long as it is accurate.

Questions on "Wikifying"
Accidently first put this on your user page. When " == " page breaks are brought in, are the different 'areas' considered different pages, or one entire page? If the latter, then the 500 page is actually still quite 'dirty', and should be refined down to perfection. Likewise, on the first-reference links (as opposed to what I was going with for awhile and will now desist from, giving the flags even on non-links), would not it be most condusive to show the nationality 'when letters are in blue', for viewers possibly interested in which driver is from which country? Granted, at times these matters are written into the work, but as said elsewhere, aren't images easier to process quickly? Just thoughts, for the moment. --Chr.K. 16:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The believe that the same should be done with the Indianapolis 500 page as has been done with Formula One, where at the beginning of the 'History' section, a main-article link to 'History of Formula One' is provided; Indianapolis should have this in the same overall format, and changing complete "==" chapters that are part of that history into bold-sections, so that other areas, such as the nature of the month-long preparation for the race and the proceedures for practice, qualifications and racing can be given. As for the "See also" lists (now up to, in alphabetical order: deaths, pace cars, Rookies of the Year, winners, winning numbers, winning starting positions, winning team owners and IndyCar), the third, fifth, sixth and seventh of which by my own hand, I'm wondering if they seem too in-depth on historical minutae, and thus perhaps better being coupled with said upcoming "History of the Indianapolis 500-Mile Race" page (to use the same phrasing as the "History of Formula One").  Your thoughts?

VW Polo
actually most of my recent edits were taken from the ones added by User: 81.179.241.125 the other day, as mentioned on Talk:Volkswagen_Polo, which was copied and pasted (from Club Polo UK Website) over the top of the whole VW Polo article. On checking, i see that this (which is stated as a source on the article page already) is the same as the text from the page you mentioned - i don't know which is the original. It certainly wasn't my intention to make a copyright violation. I know, it's full of mistakes, unencyclopedic in style and i don't like the UK pricing either. I think it has useful info, so stuck it up there, with a quick read through. There's still bits i don't like, and i'm trying to tidy it up, hence my recent edits, but would appreciate any help. Agree with you about mph too. Spute 17:39, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Mercedes-Benz C-Class
I have made the following corrections to the C-Class page:


 * Removed incorrect W202 V6 information
 * Added correct hp value for the C230
 * Clarified that the A-Class is the least expensive Mercedes in most world markets
 * Added the model changes for 2006

Is there anything else the article needs to be considered factually accurate? I can't find any other mistakes on the page, it appears to be well organized, and I would like to know what else (if anything) the page needs in order for you to consider it "cleaned up." Thanks. Jagvar 15:21, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Nice changes to Formula Ford
Excellent work giving more background etc. Would you be able to explain there what a "stressed member" is? I assume it means something like the structure of the engine is critical to making the car itself rigid, but I don't have the mechanical knowledge...thanks! Stevage 15:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

hey
you undid some changes on the scarecrow other media section. the show was named the super powers team, saynig fouth season is not being specific enough. I see the points of your changes, i'd like you to edid or improve those paragraphs.--T for Trouble-maker 02:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC) I did some more changes to met you in a middle point, pointing some more media.

i'dont undertand your last change to "the scarecrow", can you explain me what was so wrong with te paragraph you erased?? my head is hurtin trying to understand what was so wrong...why??--T for Trouble-maker 09:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

i know!
That’s why I’m asking you. I dunno if you noticed, but I didn’t simply undo your work, I tried to meet you at the middle point. I think you could put a little more about the characters. I’d like to have your view on this point: There is a Batman article, and it has Batman info. And there is a Scarecrow article with Scarecrow info; but there is no article on their relation. You couldn’t talk about the episode “the fear” which is one of the most significant episodes of the Superfriends series, and went where no animated show had gone before: Talk about the Crime Alley, the murder of the Waynes, the personal fears and motifs of Batman and how the Scarecrow was able to manipulate Batman and the police with his weapons. Where else could you talk about that?… Would you like to give it a shot and write it yourself? I could also send you the paragraph and you could edit it and then put it on the page About the war, it just is a personal stalker I got myself, he used to be ok, but out of the blue, he started following and messing with me everywhere… Not that I’m not learning a lesson for what I did before, but nobody deserves that. I’d rather avoid the talking about the issue. --T for Trouble-maker 18:27, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Stop defaming me to others by calling me a stalker. Dyslexic agnostic 19:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Audi S4
Hi. I'll address each of your points that you wrote to me in your message. 1. If my revision "readded" (restored) incorrect information, then I'll endeavour to correct that based on the subsequent edits to the page. 2. Please take a look at what has been written. I was very precise in my diction. Note the reference to Motortrend -- the information is available for free on their online website. Note the introduction of the second paragraph: I explicitly state "enthusiast community". Note the third paragraph "if historical trends".

The section on the upcoming fifth generation sedan does exactly what users have attempted to do for the previous four sections: organize information as best available in as best of fashion as possible to generate a well-functioning article. Merely because the best available information is restricted to small magazine references, historical trends, and Audi S4 mechanic and owner discussions does not imply that there is no currency for writing an article. In fact, it might be a powerful impetus to organize what we know, so as to stimulate further inquiry.

I take exception to "this is not an automotive blog". It suggests I think it is. I do not. I think it is an informational article. I would like to understand why you view it as inappropriate to gather and publish data regarding the future of the subject covered by the article. This is a common practice in many different fields -- academic journals, industry publications, subject dossiers in the government, etc. More plainly, it's informative to know the likely future of something.

Lastly, I'll ask again to please give me the courtesy of an actual discussion, especially, before you attempt to delete an entire section. You're a registered user here. You've clearly done a great deal of useful work on a variety of topics. You should know that that isn't how to operate in the wiki realm.

Thanks

_______________

I've modified the Audi S4 article in an attempt to reach a compromise between no mention of the upcoming next-gen platform release and the original section in light of the "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball" concept. While I may have disagreement with the policy, I do recognize it as a legitimate one.

If the article seems US biased, I'd invite you to (as you have been doing) be sure to include non-US information, numerical conversions, etc. I will aid you in this process time permitting, as it isn't that hard to find the relevant info.

I'm not going to be registering any time soon. I'm what is referred to in wikipedia as an exopedian. See - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Exopedianism.

Since you so kindly referred me to the Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, I would like to similarly refer you to Criticism of Wikipedia under the heading of "anti-elitism as a weakness".

Point to fact (and I will not elaborate on this, more out of concern for my own neck than anything else) I have a memeber of my immediate family who works for the corporate branch of Audi within North America, although he has certain more global functions given his position. ! The information in that post was, in fact, based on more than just speculation. ! I can understand the general policy which you referred to -- in most cases, it even makes sense. But, you should be mindful of the need for flexibility and the benefits that come from an ability to grasp unique opportunities. Read: insider information is cool to have published ahead of time. (and you're right, there will be variations in the overall dimensions of the Euro / NA sedan if not avant releases for pedestrian laws). You've effectively chased away direct access to substantive info.

Lastly, any performance statistics which I list for any of the models are based on the .pdf direct copies of the Audi product info sheets which are available in the dealerships at the time of the models release. Keep in mind: informational articles ==> official statistics take precedence, and independent tests should only receive "second billing" beneath the official ones.

Okay, have a good one.

Edited a comment
I just edited your comment under WP:NPA; even if people are irritating you, it doesn't help to show you are annoyed in that way. Mozzerati 17:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Enemies of Batman
Just ignore T-Man's personal attacks on the talk page, this has escalated enough for one day....--Gillespee 05:57, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Review of Taurus
hi, I submitted the article Ford Taurus for featured article status, but it failed. I fixed many of the problems told by the users there, and now it is up for peer review, and I am hoping you could review it for me. the discussion can be found here. --Karrmann

Car size in Audi A6
I was relying on the definitions in Mid-size car and Full-size car. Whereas I understand your point, I don't see why reclassifying the cars according to what they'd be called in Europe would be better. There seems to be a consensus already that the Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, and Mercedes-Benz S-Class are full-size and the Audi A6, BMW 5 Series, and Mercedes-Benz E-Class are mid-size. TomTheHand 13:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd be 100% in favor of including two size classifications on each car page: the European one (A/B/C/D/E/F) and the American one (subcompact/compact/mid-size/full-size) but I'd be against trying to equate European size classes to American names (the Jetta's a C so it's mid-size, etc). TomTheHand 14:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "The European cars you're trying to keep alone in full-size segment exist in a very limited market, where size isn't even a consideration, but luxury level is. The F-segment exists solely to cater to the needs of a select group of wealthy individuals."

I believe that your view is as European-biased as mine is American-biased. The Ford Crown Victoria is almost 5.4 meters long, which puts it solidly in the European F-segment according to Vehicle size class, but I would never say that it caters to the needs of a select group of wealthy individuals. Even the Chevrolet Impala and Ford Taurus, which many Americans would consider mid-size cars, are longer than 5 meters. I'm glad you agree about including both size classifications. I hope there isn't a lot of argument from others. TomTheHand 15:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Geo Storm
hi, I was wondering if you could contriblue to the peer review of the Geo Storm? thanks --Karrmann

Important WikiProject Automobiles Discussion
Hello! As a WikiProject Automobiles member, I just thought you might want to input your opinions on an important discussion we're currently having about whether articles regarding similar vehicles should be merged into one or split by brand. If you would like to comment or read further, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles. Thank you in advance for your thoughts and feedback. Airline 23:48, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Portal de Portugal
Já abriu o Portal de Portugal na Wikipedia! Junta-te a nós para trabalharmos em prol de artigos, listas e imagens relacionadas com Portugal. No portal, encontrarás um artigo geral, um artigo biográfico, um artigo geográfico e uma imagem todas as semanas em destaque. Para além disso estão apresentadas também secções de Notícias, Curiosidades, Listas, Citações, Opentasks, informação sobre artigos recentes, etc. Futuramente teremos um WikiProject para geografia de Portugal (de modo a estandardizar todos os artigos relativos às localidades e divisões administrativas portuguesas), história de Portugal, biografias, e possivelmente desporto. Também temos em vista a criação de uma Colaboração Semanal para artigos sobre Portugal. Por isto, e tudo mais, pedimos-te que venhas ajudar-nos. Estamos também à procura de colaboradores, por isso, se estiveres interessado, é só pedires que já estás no grupo de manutenção do portal. Saudações! Gameiro 19:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Censorship
A watered-down version of the proposed policy against censorship is now open for voting. Will you kindly review the policy and make your opinions known? Thank you very much.Loom91 18:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Opel timeline
Sure, send it on and I'll give it a shot. --SFoskett 01:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thoughts? --SFoskett 19:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Pc13 (and Steve too), I appreciate the great amount of meticulous work you put into developing this timeline. Nevertheless, I believe this resulted in something really busy and cumbersome, much harder to use as a navigation tool than the previous template. To somebody not really into Opels (and these are the people we write those articles for, don't we?), K/A/D or Admiral/D won't say much and might be confusing, given all the Corsa A B C Ds and stuff.

Please consider developing the timeline as a separate article, not constrained by template requirements. Thanks. --Bravada 19:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

PS. Don't get me wrong - I could imagine myself doing something similar too, and being proud of its completeness and correctness, but I think user convenience has the right of way here.


 * Bravada and Pc13 - thanks for the feedback. I didn't really know these cars at all so I messed up the coupe and roadster bit...  As for splitting it, I'm all for it since it will conserve space and make it less visually cluttered, though it will remain as tall as it is.  I'll take a stab at that today.  --SFoskett 13:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, here they are split and massaged:


 * Thoughts? --SFoskett 14:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for considering my suggestions. I let myself correct some formatting stuff in the "later" template, class designations as well as added LCVs, Prototypes and the unfortunate Blitz. Let me add that I really appreciate your work and the pride you take in designing your templates.
 * Still, I believe it should be reconsidered whether we really need to replace the template with a timeline, for the following reasons:
 * Even after splitting and "cleaning up", the template itself remains rather busy and IMHO is not as clear and concise as the previous non-timeline template, perhaps due to the limitations of the WikiTable and convention chosen
 * These timelines take into account only Opel and only in main markets - remember that most modern Opel models were also sold under many other brands - preparing templates for all brands and markets could be very time-consuming, not to mention that the size of templates would exceed the size of articles in many cases
 * A large number of models are present on both timelines, so it will lead to what is the case with Renaults - two very large templates under one article
 * I think I thought of something more but I forgot it. I will expand the list once my mid-term memory recovers :p
 * Let me repeat - a timeline like that is a very useful and important source of information, but I believe it should be a separate article, and perhaps done using less constraining means.--Bravada 18:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * PS. Steve, you have inserted Pc's user page into my talk page, I believe it was by mistake, so I corrected your message to what I think you meant. I hope I didn't do anything wrong.
 * PS2. Pc13, I want to apologize for using your talk page as a discussion forum on those templates, but there are so many pages where we can discuss them now that I believe it would be best to keep it all in one place.