User talk:Pdfpdf/Archive06-Mike-Flicker

From User talk:71.35.161.45

Mike Flicker
Post Script: 'Mike Fisher played guitar for Heart's predecessors "The Army" and "White Heart", and relinquished the role of musician when Nancy Wilson (guitarist) joined the group; there is no evidence that he is or was a percussionist. Conversley, Mike Flicker is credited on Zoo albums and several Heart albums as a percussionist; there is no evidence that he is or was a guitarist.' 'There is evidence that Flicker was in LA 1967-1970. There is no evidence that Fisher was in LA 1967-1970, and there is no reason why he would have been there at that time. Conversely, there is some evidence that he was in Seattle 1967-1970.' Consequently, I think it highly unlikely that Mike Flicker is Roger Fisher's brother. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Mike Flicker (born Michael Fisher, 1952)
 * Was he really!?!? Well, that would explain a few things! Have you got some evidence to support that?
 * Mike Fisher as in Roger Fisher (guitarist)'s brother?
 * Pdfpdf (talk) 13:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Well you said it! It certainly does explain a lot, doesn't it? Mike Fisher had already adopted Flicker as his professional name before the age of 18.
 * Is there any evidence to support this? Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

But why did he suddenly move to Vancouver B.C., a city which had a tiny rock music scene? It was fortunate for Fisher that there was a big boost to the music business in Canada when the government started the Canadian content rules in 1971. We already know that Mike Fisher left the U.S. when he became eligible for the draft at the same time.
 * If Fisher was born in 1952, then he was 16 in 1968, and 18 in 1970. There is evidence he moved to Vancouver in 1974. What evidence is there that he moved anywhere before 1974? Why would he have moved to LA before 1968? (There is evidence that he was in Seattle in 1968, and that Flicker was in LA in 1968.) Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is some of the evidence that I can share with you. Consider the following:

-Having an assumed name certainly made things easier for Mike Fisher during the early 70's when he living in Canada and wanted by U.S. authorities for draft evasion. By 1977 or so things had cooled down and evaders were pardoned by Jimmy Carter. At that time Michael Fisher moved back to the U.S and continued to work with Heart until the Fisher brothers and Wilson sisters had a falling out around 1980. At that time Mike Flicker's name disappears from Heart's album credits along with Mike Fisher.

-Most of the recordings that Mike Flicker worked on during the 70's and early 80's also credit Mike or Michael Fisher. A quick look at imdb.com shows a lot of these coincidences in music for films.
 * I had a long look at imdb.com - I only found one entry with both names. Please supply pointers to the recordings that Mike Flicker worked on that also credit Mike or Michael Fisher. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

There are also the same credits on all the early Heart albums as well as rock and pop albums that Flicker recorded for other artists.
 * There are? I haven't found any. Please supply pointers. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

-Both Michael Fisher and Mike Flicker have worked as professional drummers and sound engineers or record producers.
 * I haven't found any evidence that Fisher has ever worked as a drummer. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The engineering and producing professions are so closely related that it is often hard to tell the difference between the two. Both men have had essentially the same career path since the very beginning.
 * The evidence I have does not support that statement. 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

-Both Roger Fisher and Mike are seen in early promo pictures of their group "The Army", which later turned into Heart. The young Michael Fisher bears a striking resemblance to the adult Mike Flicker.
 * I haven't seen ANY pictures of Fisher, anywhere, so I can't comment. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

-In interviews Nancy Wilson mentions details of Mike Fisher's draft evasion. Then she suddenly says Mike Flicker just appeared on the scene as a successful musician and record producer who wants to make the group famous. The interviews of which I speak can easily be found online.
 * I haven't been able to find them. Please supply pointers. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Where did Mr. Flicker get his experience in the music business?
 * In LA. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

From Michael Fisher, of course. Why did Heart suddenly move to Vancouver? The answer is that Ann Wilson followed Michael Fisher, who was unable to return to the U.S. at the time.

There are just too many coincidences for for there to be any real doubt. Mike Fisher and Mike Flicker have always been the same man. Check it out for yourself and I am sure you will find more.
 * I have checked it out. I can't find any supporting evidence. In fact, all I can find is counter-evidence. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

BTW, if you intend on keeping the "Mike Fisher (guitarist)" article you will need to change the name to "Michael Fisher (producer and drummer)" or something like that. The Michael Fisher we are talking about here never worked as a professional guitarist to my knowledge. Roger Fisher was the guitarist, not Michael.
 * Before Nancy came along, both Roger and Mike were guitarists. (Remember, three of the four Beatles were guitarists, four of the five Rolling Stones, etc.) Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply - can't respond right now - be back later. Pdfpdf (talk) 09:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * All highly plausible.
 * However, there are a few statements in a few places that are contradictory, and a few gaps. It would be nice to sort it out and have some consistency.
 * It would also be nice to have some verifiable sources.
 * The conflicting sources and other related pages that I've come across (so far) are:
 * Heart (band)
 * Magic Man
 * Magazine (album)
 * Michael Fisher (disambiguation)
 * Mike Fisher (disambiguation)
 * Michael Fisher
 * Mike Fisher
 * Mike Flicker
 * The holes in the story are:
 * There's no explanation of how Flicker could be living in LA and Vancouver while Fisher was living in Seattle.
 * Johnstone & Derosier were credited with playing drums from 1970-82, not Fisher.
 * Fisher is credited with playing guitar 1970-79. That should read 1970-74. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Fisher was Ann's "boyfriend" from 1970-79. She was living in Seattle 1970-1974. So was Fisher. However, Flicker was living in LA & Vancouver.
 * The idea that Fisher was the Magic Man has been put up and removed several times, because no-one has found any supporting evidence.
 * Now, I (personally) would love this to be true, but there are too many holes.
 * And nobody is providing any supporting evidence.
 * I'm afraid that until you supply some verifiable evidence, I have to treat this as a lovely fairy tale.
 * And I really don't want to; I want it to be true. Pdfpdf (talk) 11:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh: "BTW, if you intend on keeping the "Mike Fisher (guitarist)" article you will need to change the name to "Michael Fisher (producer and drummer)" or something like that. The Michael Fisher we are talking about here never worked as a professional guitarist to my knowledge.  Roger Fisher was the guitarist, not Michael."
 * Yeah, that's a problem, isn't it. I didn't create that red link, but you can see why that other guy did.
 * Without some evidence, I don't know what to do about that one. Pdfpdf (talk) 11:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi again, I actually agree with most of your points. But I think you may have jumped to some rather strange conclusions here. This definitely needs some more explanation.

Fisher and Flicker were NOT living in different cities at the same time. Michael Fisher was already in Vancouver since 1971. Flicker had previously been in LA, but moved to Vancouver in 1971. They had both just become eligible for the draft at the same time and were the same age. They had the same careers and moved to Vancouver for the same reasons, to escape the draft and seek new opportunities in the Canadian music industry.
 * The period-in-question is 1968-1971, when Flicker was in LA and Fisher was in Seattle. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Mike Fisher stopped playing drums with the group when they were still "The Army" during the 1960's.
 * I can't find any evidence that Fisher ever played drums. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I never claimed that Fisher actually played drums with the group while they were called "Heart." A guy who is on the run and using an assumed name would not remain a part of any rock band trying to make it big. That is why M.F. dropped out of the spotlight and became a behind the scenes member of the Heart entourage. Remember, he worked with them as engineer, producer, manager, etc.

I have NEVER seen a primary source that credits Michael Fisher as a guitarist.
 * And I can't find any evidence that Fisher ever played drums. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This is an error in the Wikipedia article about Heart and it is not even properly documented in the article. Heart already had 3 guitarists, Roger Fisher, Howard Leese and Nancy Wilson so why would they want another?
 * Mike Fisher & Nancy Wilson were never musician members of the band at the same time.
 * I don't think Mike Fisher & Howard Leese were either; Leese didn't come on the scene until Vancouver. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Even if Michael Fisher really did strum a few chords here and there in between producing and engineering the albums it would not really conflict with anything in my argument. ANYONE can learn to strum a few chords and call themselves a guitarist.

Aside from the error about Michael Fisher as guitarist, most of the Wikipedia information about Heart is, I think, correct. The articles you list don't conflict with my argument. If you think I am wrong about other details I would be glad to go over each one in detail.

Fisher would not have been living in Seattle from 1970 to 1974 if he was evading the draft. If he had a high draft number as I suspect, he would have most likely been drafted in 1970 or 1971 when he turned 18. If he had a low draft number there would have been little reason for him to take the risk of leaving for Canada in the first place.
 * Yes, but what about being in LA 1968-70? Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know exactly when Michael Fisher and Ann Wilson first met. All I know for sure is that they were romantically involved while living together in Vancouver starting around 1974/1975 and lasting until 1979 after moving back to the U.S. around 1977. Of course, this does not rule out the likelihood that they met much earlier while living apart. For a long time they had friends and family, like Roger Fisher, in common. There would certainly be no problem with Ann visiting Michael Fisher in Canada, in fact we know she did that many times. But as a draft evader between 1971 and 1977 Michael could not visit the U.S.

I just noticed that you are not from the Northwest. Perhaps it was relatively easy for me to untangle this mess because I am from the area where Heart originated and have met people who know the group members. I also remember a lot of the circumstances surrounding the Vietnam draft era. Precise details of Heart's early history have always been rather sketchy and hard to pin down. The members don't like to go into much detail about these things because some of the politics of that time still make them a bit angry. Personally, I have always thought that they (especially Ann Wilson) had a habit of glossing over the details and embellishing stories. Even among fans in Seattle there is a lot of confusion about the group's early history. Most of their early success happened about 300 miles away in Canada. The most complete source of information is probably the "Behind the Music" documentary about Heart that was broadcast on the VH1 music channel about 10 years ago. Have you seen that?

Author Charles R. Cross, who wrote excellent books about Northwest rock legends Jimi Hendrix and Kurt Cobain, is currently working on another big project. I don't know for sure, but the most likely subject would be Heart. Cross did extensive research and exposed the truth about Jimi Hendrix's military record. Hopefully he will be able to set the record straight about the Fishers and the Wilsons, as well as the whole debacle with Mushroom Records, and the early singles by "Ann Wilson and the Daybreaks." Ever heard those records? Ann Wilson is still trying to forget them!!!

The reason why the stories of Michael Fisher as the "Magic Man" keep popping up is because the band and their press agents told the story for years. I first heart the story in 1976 when it was told by disc jockey Casey Kasem. He told the story while doing his weekly radio show of the U.S. top 40 chart hits. Casey sure did tell a good story. Some of it was probably even true!

I don't want to seem argumentative here. But I really hope that you will continue to check out the facts, because they really do make sense! Thanks for reading anyway.

zz 66.212.64.234 (talk) 00:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC) 71.35.161.45 (talk)


 * Again, thanks for the reply. This might be boring-the-pants-off of other readers, but I'm fascinated.
 * As I said: "I (personally) would love this to be true".
 * I'm disappointed to say I don't have time to answer you now. Sorry. (I have to prepare a powerpoint presentation for tomorrow, and I'm going to be out-of-town next week, and have to prepare for that too.) But I will give you a reply worthy of your efforts next weekend if I'm unable to do so this weekend or next week.
 * Just a few points for you to keep in mind until I can get back to you. (Maybe you can address some of them in my absence?)
 * I don't think you are being argumentative. Similarly, I don't think I'm being argumentative. I hope you don't think I'm being argumentative, because that is most certainly NOT my intention.
 * Please "sign" your comments with four tildes viz: " ~ ". This puts a time stamp on your comments and makes it easier to work out who said what, when.
 * I assume you are both 66.212.64.234 and 71.35.161.45? i.e. I assume I'm talking to one person, not two different people?
 * Now I really don't want this to sound pretentious (but I'm afraid that it probably will!) WP is intended to be an encyclopaedia, not a blog. Statements are supposed to be verifiable, and the evidence be from reliable sources. Opinion, hear-say, and annecdote are not reliable sources.
 * If you put something on WP, it's up to you to provide the independent reliable verification. (Not me.)


 * I'd like to go on, but I don't have time at the moment. Quickly:
 * "But I think you may have jumped to some rather strange conclusions here" - I don't understand. Can you be more explicit?
 * "Fisher was Ann's "boyfriend" from 1970-79. She was living in Seattle 1970-1974. So was Fisher. However, Flicker was living in LA & Vancouver in the period 1970-1974." - You didn't seem to address that point. (Or I wasn't paying enough attention, in which case, my apologies.)
 * Got-to-go. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 09:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I see you have sort-of-addressed the AW-MF relationship. But not the 1970-1974 period. Again, how could they have been a couple if she was in Seattle, and he wasn't? Pdfpdf (talk) 10:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Glad to hear from you again. I understand about your need to be brief. Sorry that my use of Wikipedia has been inappropriate. I would be glad to discuss this in detail somewhere else if you prefer. Sorry that my logging in from 2 locations confused you. I didn't think you were being argumentative either. It was just my awkward attempt to be polite.

Seattle and Vancouver are only about 2 1/2 hours apart by car. I have made several weekend getaway trips myself. I see no reason why AW and MF could not have carried on a long distance relationship like this for quite some time, perhaps even years. Aside from their romance they needed each other for other reasons. MF knew that AW had the looks, ambition, and talent to make the big time. AW knew that MF was a shrewd manager and had connections with big-shots in the music business. Together they were one unstoppable team! I really am a fan of the group. I hope I have not sounded rude toward them.

When I talked about "strange conclusions" it was because I think that some fans of Heart have been much too quick to just swallow the vague stories and hype told by some members of the band. You are right, I don't have verifiable proof for some of what I have told you. But I also know from personal experience that some of the stories the group have told really just don't add up. Of course I also think the group was used by Mushroom in the scandalous and totally misleading "Dreamboat Annie" advertising campaign. But that is the way hype works. Each side tries to use it to their own advantage.

Has the band ever produced any conclusive evidence that MF was living in Seattle from 1970-1974? I don't think they can do that because as I said, MF was on the run from U.S. authorities that entire time. I don't completely fault the Wilson sisters for misleading the public about the Michael Fisher/Mike Flicker story. I am sure that they group only wanted to protect someone whom they cared for very much. Not only that, but in the early days their success in the music business depended entirely on MF staying out of the draft. The consequences of draft evasion were taken VERY seriously by both Americans and Canadians at the time. But the draft ended over 20 years ago! I think it is time that the truth can finally came out. Thanks again for reading!

zz ~

Errr. Where were we?

 * Hi. I'm back in town (after being surprised how hard it is to find an internet cafe when you're travelling.)
 * As I've said several times, this is all very interesting, but to place such statements in Wikipedia, no matter how true they are, you need to be able to verify/support them with information/evidence from a reliable source. So far, I've seen no such information. Pdfpdf (talk) 10:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi again. For now I would like to just improve the existing articles on this subject to make them more accurate and consistent. Better to call the two "Michael Fisher" and "Mike Flicker." It gets too confusing when Michael is also called Mike. Will the "Mike Fisher (guitarist)" article be renamed? I will see if I can do more research on this subject. zz97.113.12.219 (talk) 04:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, don't understand; there is no "Mike Fisher (guitarist)" article. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Nor "Michael Fisher (guitarist)" either. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, sorry. My mistake. I guess it is just that there are a number of links that point to a non-existent article. It is just the bad links that need to be fixed.

I know some people I can talk to for more information about MF. Is there a better way to discuss this issue with you outside Wikipedia? I can give you an e-mail address if you prefer. Thanks.

zz97.113.12.219 (talk) 19:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You can email me from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Pdfpdf Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 23:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I found my copy of Dreamboat Annie! (12" vinyl bought in L.A. in 1979; played once when recorded onto cassette. About to be played a second time when I record it as an mp3.) Pdfpdf (talk) 09:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC) BTW: I haven't noticed any emails from you. Pdfpdf (talk) 09:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Mike Fisher - verified/verifiable facts
OK. So, what do we know and can verify? Pdfpdf (talk) 09:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * From the 1976 Canadian 12" vinyl release of Dreamboat Annie:
 * Mike Fisher is not mentioned as a band member of Heart
 * Major credits are: "Ann Wilson, Nancy Wilson, with Steve Fossen, Roger Fisher, Produced by Mike Flicker"
 * There are no song-writing credits or "musician credits" for Mike Fisher
 * However, there is one mention, on the record sleeve: "Special Direction: Mike Fisher"
 * (Mike Flicker credits include: Magic Man, percussion; Dreamboat Annie (Reprise), Tympani; Album Produced by Mike Flicker; Arrangements by Heart and Mike Flicker; Engineering, Mike Flicker and Rolf Hennemann)

What do we think we know
Pdfpdf (talk) 16:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Fisher born 1952 - Source?
 * Fisher member of The Army 1963 (aged 11?) - Source?
 * Source: http://www.mikeflicker.com/MikeFlicker.pdf
 * Flicker was 16 "in the early 1960s"
 * Flicker spent "the next 4 years transitioning into publishing"
 * 1971 Flicker relocated to BC and founded Mushroom
 * 1975 "discovered" Heart; relocated to US the following year
 * 1977 left Mushroom
 * 1991 formed Mike Flicker Music Services in L.A.
 * Source: http://www.mikeflicker.com/musiccredits.html
 * Includes: 1967 The Zoo - "The Zoo Presents Chocolate Mousse" - Drummer & Lyricist
 * http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/links/0,,431130,00.html#artist_name
 * http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/appears/0,,431130,00.html#more

Things to resolve
Pdfpdf (talk) 16:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * When was Fisher born?
 * Is Mike Fisher older or younger than Roger Fisher? (Roger born 14 Feb 1950)
 * When did Fisher join The Army?
 * What were/are Fisher's musical skills? i.e. What evidence is there that he is/was a drummer?
 * When did Fisher leave Seattle?
 * Did Fisher move to L.A.? When? Why?
 * When did Fisher move to BC? Why?
 * Was Fisher ever a member of Heart?
 * What did Fisher do after 1979?
 * Where does Fisher live now?
 * When was Flicker born? How long was it between when he was 16 and 1967 (when "Chocolate Mousse" was released)
 * What did Flicker do between birth and 1967?
 * Where does Flicker live now?

Roger Fisher's journal
Roger Fisher's journal http://www.rogerfisher.com/journal.html makes a number of references to Mike. July, 2005: October 4, 2006: October 24th, 2007: 3 December 2007: Pdfpdf (talk) 17:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * next year they can expect another visit from me, joined by brother Mike and sister Kay.
 * Brother Mike's kids, Colie, Nick, Tyler and Josh
 * Brother Mike was co-architect of one of the biggest rock groups of the '70's. I've watched over the years as he has, with precise prescience, talked about many various things which didn't exist until 10; 20; even 40 years later. The inventions he is working on are brilliant. Time will tell how they're received in the marketplace. Being the father of 11, he consistently models what it is to be a gentleman who shows great insight, tact and patience.
 * Albert Hall is one of the most beautiful venues in the world. From the outside, it is an elegant, red, round building just off the Kensington side of Hyde Park. Being there again brings back memories of Mike Fisher and I catching a Kiki Dee/Elton John show in 1976.
 * It's nice to say hi to Brian May again. We had pleasant conversation after the Queen show in Seattle in April '06. At that time he reminded me of how he and Roger Taylor would always come visit my brother Mike, Ann and Nance and myself whenever Queen had a show in Seattle. Brian is one of the most gentle, charismatic people I've met.
 * Last July I turned down a free round-trip ticket to Seattle to attend my brother's wedding. It was to be a grand affair, involving all our family in the Pacific Northwest -- nearly 20 people -- for a 5-day stay at a fantastic resort east of the Cascade Mountains.
 * In the late '60's, brother Mike, Steve Fossen and I were vegetarians for three and a half years.

Roger Fisher's Questions and Replies
http://www.rogerfisher.com/qr.html Pdfpdf (talk) 17:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Another was the first time I heard All Shook Up, by Elvis. Wow! Brother Mike and I went around singing "Amashaka" all day:-) In second grade I made my public singing debut standing on a desk in the front of the classroom singing Hound Dog. Don't Be Cruel, Love Me Tender, and Jailhouse Rock also rocked my world.
 * In June of 2005, sister Kay, brother Mike and myself went to Andalsnes, Norway to meet with our family there.