User talk:PeeJay/Archive 29

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Starting XI
Hello. As to this, I know Roman numerals are common, but I'm not convinced they're suitable for encyclopedic tone. A prose reviewer at this relatively recent FAC wasn't keen, either. Not sure why you're so set against using the word "eleven" (it doesn't fail MOS:NUMERAL: Integers greater than nine expressible in one or two words may be expressed either in numerals or in words), but next time I update Mr Ruddy, I'll change it to starting lineup. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:54, 14 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, I've done it. – PeeJay 21:39, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

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Football box collapsible
Does the format "football box collapsible" look not better than the normal "footbal box" format? Who decides that it is ugly? regards...Magawla61 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 15:07, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * It definitely doesn't look better when there are horizontal bars between each template already. Didn't you look at your edits after you made them? Also, per MOS:COLLAPSE, we shouldn't be hiding content in collapsible boxes if it can't be found anywhere else in the article. It's not fit for purpose. – PeeJay 17:06, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Of course I am looking my edits after I made them. Well, OK. According the above manual, I won't hide the content from now on. I think that "collapsible" format looks better though.

Scorers in FC Twente in European Footbal Deleted
You also removed the scorers from the FC Twente in European football page. Why is (was) that? (You missed some of them too.) It is really tiring to struggle with such things while I want to make contributions. Highly discouraging. Can you please tell me your point(s) on that? Magawla61 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 21:08, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Competitions by country and most played teams
May I ask why you deleted the "competitiions sorted by countries" and "most played teams" from the page Trabzonspor in European football? Is there a policy for that? Because I really gave quite an effort for those statistics. Regards... Magawla61 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:56, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * That info was unsourced. – PeeJay 21:35, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Look. The info was derived from the games they played. They can be calculated from the results. I did the calculations. Does that not count? Magawla61 (talk) 22:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * And there are many team pages alike which contain such statistical information. Magawla61 (talk) 22:32, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

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Reference for the football scores
Hello PeeJay. I would like to ask you something: The "football box" template contains a "Report" field. And that field contains the link of the result of that game. Do we need to add another reference for the score of the game? According to me, the "result" field is enough and we don't need to add another reference for thae score. What do you think? Thanks in advance. Magawla61 (talk) 19:31, 5 February 2023 (UTC)mgwl Magawla61 (talk)


 * Adding a link to a reliable news report, or the organisers' official match report should be enough. – PeeJay 21:57, 5 February 2023 (UTC)


 * No no. I My question was: If I added a reliable link in the "result" section of the "football box" template then do I need to add another source with for the same match? (I guess not.) Regards... Magawla61 (talk) 20:16, 6 February 2023 (UTC)mgwl Magawla61 (talk

footballdatabase.eu reliable?
Hello PeeJay. I would like to ask another question: Is "www.footballdatabase.eu" a reliable source? According to me it is. What do you think? Regards... Magawla61 (talk) 20:35, 6 February 2023 (UTC)mgwl Magawla61 (talk

 to 
Sorry for bothering again. I was converting the  to  because it will take less bytes like that. Something wrong with it? Magawla61 (talk) 13:00, 7 February 2023 (UTC)mgwl Magawla61 talk

to  does nothing to change the outward presentation of the article, and it saves only two bytes for each one you change. It's not worth storing an entirely new version of the page on Wikipedia's servers. – PeeJay 13:02, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, you shouldn't make edits just to change something that won't be represented to the reader. Changing from
 * OK. Thanks for the clarification. You are right. Storing a new version with such a minor edit takes much more bytes from the Wikipedia servers. I shouldn't have missed that. Regards... Magawla61 (talk) 13:24, 7 February 2023 (UTC)mgwl Magawla61 talk

Disambiguation link notification for February 15
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Barbarians vs New Zealand, 1973, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Alan Sutherland.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:04, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Sourced info only.
Please don't revert again. You didn't even have the numbers right (it's 19-15 including playoffs). The rest has to be sourced. Fred Zepelin (talk) 18:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Reliable sources
Please read up on WP:RS. You added what is basically a personal website. I've now asked you to discuss on talk, which you ignored, and posted an edit warring warning on your talk page, which you removed. Next step is a formal report, and likely, a block for you. Fred Zepelin (talk) 19:53, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm perfectly within my rights to remove any messages from my talk page. In fact, per Wikipedia guidelines, you should take its removal as tacit acknowledgement of the message. Now stop making threats and explain, using your big boy words, why the source I added isn't reliable when its numbers can be corroborated. – PeeJay 20:03, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That discussion is ongoing at Talk:Cowboys–Vikings rivalry. I would also ask that you, again, refrain from reverting the article to add things that aren't backed up by a reliable source. And that you refrain from personal insults as you did in your comment here. Fred Zepelin (talk) 21:58, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. The thread is Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Thank you. Fred Zepelin (talk) 22:08, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

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Scoring and icons
Hi there. I noticed you've removed scoring icons from the List of 2023 Super Rugby Pacific matches page. Whether icons are necessary or not, is debatable. It looks much better than without, but yeah, maybe not necessary if you don't care about how a page looks to a page visitor. "Totally unnecessary" is too strong IMO. However, the use of "c" and "m" as indications of converted try and unconverted try is terrible. The casual visitor to the page will have no idea what "c" and "m" means. So I suggest we remove that (too). It's a bad habit that is user unfriendly and something that should have been elimiated from match lists a long time ago. Ruggalicious (talk) 12:32, 25 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm happy to abolish the use of 'c' and 'm' after each try, especially if we're choosing now to add the time each conversion was scored. I initially implemented that code as a way of indicating whether a try was converted or not, back in the days when people didn't used to record the times of conversions (I would argue it's pointless to mention conversion times since they have to happen within about a minute of the try being scored, but that's what sources do, so meh...) I don't think it's too strong to say the icons are totally unnecessary though. Per MOS:ICON, icons should "serve as visual cues that aid the reader's comprehension", but I would argue that they are redundant. It's not immediately obvious that a rugby ball indicates a try; that is done by the section header saying Try immediately above. Unfortunately, the icons are used on hundreds of pages and it will take a monumental effort not only to remove them but apparently also to convince WP:RU of their pointlessness. – PeeJay 12:39, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I would also say that I think we should be referring to scorers by their surnames (and an initial when necessary). – PeeJay 12:42, 25 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Icons are also widely used by sources. Ruggalicious (talk) 12:43, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Icons are mostly used by sources when they don't have headers like we do. The BBC, for example, don't use any icons (see here). – PeeJay 12:50, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * By the way, the 'c' and 'm' indicators are widely used in Northern Hemisphere rugby articles, so would it be possible to restore them to the 2023 Super Rugby Pacific season article for now? – PeeJay 13:07, 25 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Only because it's done in some NH rugby articles doesn't mean we have to repeat it in other or SH rugby articles, if it doesn't add anything positive. If you remove icons because you consider them "totally unnecessary" then it's entirely consistent to also remove the 'c' and the 'm', which are not only totally unnecessary but may also add more confusion than clarity for page visitors. Now (at the start of the season) is a good time to do it differently. Ruggalicious (talk) 13:49, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, well let's use this as a test case for forming a better way of displaying rugby results, but let's do it based on actual sources. – PeeJay 13:53, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

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Precious anniversary
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

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Scarlets
Hello PeeJay, just wanted ask about the removal of current league standings on Scarlets page. Noticed it on all other Welsh and Irish clubs page, and also on English Prem clubs, so I added it. Saw you removed it right after, wasn’t sure if it should be pulled from the other clubs or find a better way to integrate it to the current Scarlets page. Seems to be acceptable on other page, wasn’t sure what the general thought was. Been trying to update history and add content to page, some stuff is out of date and missing sections relative to other clubs. Thanks! RodneyParadeWanderer (talk) 21:45, 26 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Yeah, totally. I think improving rugby team pages is a great idea. However, I think adding current tables is a bit excessive for any team, especially when they're involved in multiple competitions. The tables on the Scarlets page were absolutely huge too, since it's not just the overall URC table but the national Shield tables, not to mention the conferences in the Challenge Cup are quite hefty! Honestly, I wouldn't include tables on any team page. – PeeJay 23:18, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That’s fine, I am happy either way, just wanted to chat and see your thoughts. Thanks for all the updates and cleaning up my additions!
 * RodneyParadeWanderer (talk) 23:24, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

&mdash; The Anome (talk) 15:47, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

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Infobox ideas and changes
In light of recent debate on modifications to Template:Infobox rugby biography, I've expanded it to include other issues that demand attention. As you frequently contribute to rugby union articles, please feel free to respond with your suggestions for improving the most recent discussion on the templates talk page. Kidsoljah (talk) 18:43, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

West Brom v Man United (2013)?
Hi mate. Would you like to help me get an article of the 5-5 draw to standard? I've already started it off in my workspace, with the core information and other tidbits, but it does need some padding out before it can get properly published.  VEO one five 16:44, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

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European Cup Altafini record
Hi,

Why don't the First Round goals count? Especially since they are mentioned as records both on player's page as well as on European Cup/Champions League records page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.43.17.69 (talk) 12:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Goals in the first round do count, goals in the preliminary round don’t. Check the source. – PeeJay 12:37, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

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1997-98 and other Seasons of Champions League edits
Why in Champions League cannot have listed the teams who did not have already qualified in the next editions as that is in the World Cup and Euros editions? Metufit (talk) 14:20, 16 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I have no idea what you mean. Can you show me an example? – PeeJay 08:12, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Wrong how?
I changed FA Cup Third Round to FA Cup third round and you reverted saying "wrong". How so? Most sources (books and news) lowercase it that way. Dicklyon (talk) 15:18, 22 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Because the FA doesn’t do it like that. The rounds in the FA Cup are capitalised. – PeeJay 17:12, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you mean. This news search shows that they are usually not capped.  How the FA prefers it is not our concern, per MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 17:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Also thefa.com mostly uses lowercase "third round". Dicklyon (talk) 17:57, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Here's uppercase on official webpage: https://www.thefa.com/competitions/thefacup/round-dates Red Devil (talk) 07:54, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * There's no signal on that page, as there's no use of the phrases in sentences, just title-case headings or list items, including "Round Dates". See the other pages at the same official site that use lowercase in sentences (which I linked a search to, above). Dicklyon (talk) 13:53, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Hearing no objection, I'll go ahead and lowercase such things. Dicklyon (talk) 01:10, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No, it’s officially upper case, so don’t do that. – PeeJay 08:10, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * You're just ignoring evidence to the contrary, so don't do that. Dicklyon (talk) 13:53, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no evidence to the contrary. You’re talking about something different. – PeeJay 13:54, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about the case of "FA Cup third round" and such in sentences, which WP would also use in headings and list items per MOS:CAPS. I believe that's representative of your revert where you said "wrong".  What different thing are you talking about? Dicklyon (talk) 14:07, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Let's discuss where more people understand WP's capitalization guidelines: WT:MOSCAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 14:16, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

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Dj Pollard
Two candidates: MbappeUnited and GerrardLeeds 185.165.188.68 (talk) 10:24, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll add those to the report. – PeeJay 10:27, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Another one on the 2023 FA Cup final. It’s better to watch this article because he returns there from time to time. 185.165.188.68 (talk) 18:39, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

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Sam Cookson
Sam Cookson was not born in Wales and was not Welsh. Every census and the birth registration shows he was born in Shrewsbury and Cookson is not a Welsh name. What source do you have (besides the amateur MU fan club site) that supports your claim he was Welsh? —МандичкаYO 😜 05:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * How do you know the Sam Cookson mentioned in your census data is the correct Sam Cookson? Also, Cookson can definitely be a surname used by a Welsh person. – PeeJay 08:06, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

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Contact sports
If you are around at some point would appreciate you going over the Contact sports article for readability etc as I see you reverted Steady James. I have rebuilt the article based on the only authoritative source I have found that describes in detail the issue at hand, and you can see some aspect of the discussions [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Contact_sport#Debate_if_Association_Football_should_be_a_Limited_or_Full_Contact_Sports? here] and here. From what I can tell the article was started and became focused around martial arts, and so they have defined everything based on only combat sports as being "contact" and everything else moving down a rung on the scale of violence. Generally most sources don't differentiate between "contact" and "full contact" because the concept of "full contact" doesn't exist for sports outside of martial arts. There's still plenty of work to do on the article. Koncorde (talk) 15:13, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


 * To be honest, mate, I don't get much time to do any large amounts of editing these days. If I get a chance, I'll take a look, but it's pretty low on my list of priorities, I'm afraid. – PeeJay 15:17, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That's fine, I just thought with you reverting that it might be on your attention list. If it isn't, I'll see if I can tag in someone from one of the projects. Cheers. Koncorde (talk) 15:23, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I can manage simple stuff like a revert here and there, but checking an entire article is a bit beyond my abilities these days. Good luck! – PeeJay 15:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Thenewsaints.png
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New Zealand U20 article
I don't want to start an edit war, but I wholeheartedly disagree with you about removing the results section from the NZ U20 article. This is exactly what visitors to this kind of pages want to find. They don't want to have to search for past results from a particular team on different tournament pages. They want to see it all together on the team's page. This is 100% relevant and useful. I'd like to hear the opinion of others, including Rugbyfan22 and Kidsoljah, before I revert your sledgehammer approach again. Edited to add that I would not object to hiding the most recent results in the same way as the 2008 to 2014 results. Ruggalicious (talk) 13:05, 15 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think you can reliably claim that's what readers want. I'm sure there are some readers who might, but Wikipedia is not a stats repository. I'm working on a summary table, but a list of all-time results is not appropriate. – PeeJay 13:07, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think you can reliably claim that's NOT what readers want. Wikipedia may not be a stats repository, it is supposed to provide useful information about a subject, in this case a team, and a team's results belong in that category. Ruggalicious (talk) 13:12, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure results listed like this are what are required. A reader would be able to find this information in the relevant U20 competition page. Text would be much preferred giving a synopsis of results. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 13:13, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you really think that people interested in the NZ U20 team's results want to go from tournament page to tournament page to see the team's results? As I said, I don't mind if it's hidden, but I think it should be there together. Ruggalicious (talk) 13:16, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Give me 20 minutes and I'll have a summary table in place for the team's performances at the U20 World Championships. I can even do one for the Oceania Championships. But yeah, a game-by-game list of matches is bananas. – PeeJay 13:16, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Annemiek van Vleuten
Just an FYI that Annemiek van Vleuten is written with a lowercase v for van Vleuten - as with other Dutch names. Turini2 (talk) 14:40, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Sorry, you're wrong. Check out tussenvoegsel for an explanation. – PeeJay 14:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @PeeJay fair enough - I guess the previous editor who explained it to me was misinformed! Turini2 (talk) 15:20, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Where at tussenvoegsel does it say that uppercase v are to be used? Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 15:23, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "In Dutch grammar, the tussenvoegsel in a surname is written with a capital letter only when it starts a sentence or is not preceded by a first name or initial." – PeeJay 15:25, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * And in English grammar? Robby.is.on (talk) 15:31, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * What about it? These are Dutch names. If anything, English grammar says we should capitalise, since that's what we do with English surnames. I have a friend whose name is "[first name] de Caux", but he would always be referred to as "De Caux" when mentioned without his first name. – PeeJay 15:33, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I would assume rules exist for how Dutch names are to be treated in English but I haven't found anything. Thanks though. Robby.is.on (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think every outlet does it differently. I know Manchester United’s website always lower-cases “van de Beek” when referring to Donny. – PeeJay 17:02, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Dean Henderson
Dean is currently heavily linked to a return to Nottingham Forest, therefore my edit was correct.

Sources: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12305003/Man-Uniteds-Dean-Henderson-set-join-Forest-20m-deal-Andre-Onana-completed.html https://theathletic.com/4697265/2023/07/17/nottingham-forest-dean-henderson-transfer/ https://oldtraffordfaithful.com/dean-henderson-closing-in-on-nottingham-forest-move-in-20m-deal/ OdexFarinae (talk) 20:16, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


 * There have been no edits to that article pertaining to any transfer, so there's no need to post a warning template. – PeeJay 22:16, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Jonny Evans
Based on The official website https://www.manutd.com/en/players-and-staff/detail/jonny-evans he already takes #27. Beside Alex Telles moved to the Saudia league already but still waiting for the official announcement — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eng kika (talk • contribs) 14:35, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * They're both #27 according to the club website... – PeeJay 14:51, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * exactly, and that what I make here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023%E2%80%9324_Manchester_United_F.C._season&oldid=1166125743
 * the both #27 with note — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eng.kika (talk • contribs) 14:58, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * But they can't both be #27, and since Evans is only on a short-term contract and we don't know the status of Alex Telles, it doesn't make sense to make that change. – PeeJay 15:03, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

revision on cricket article
hi, i saw you undid my revision here, and I'd like to ask why? no recent article lists Pakistan as pakistani/s, and I never remember it stating 'Australians/South Africans' etc all those years ago as well. If that's not the case please let me know and I'll be happy to learn but otherwise I just feel like writing 'pakistani' instead of 'pakistan' is strange. thanks! Nautilusblue8 (talk) 07:48, 22 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Sure. In old editions of Wisden, touring sides were referred to by their demonym for their non-international tour matches. This was a way to indicate that players did not earn caps for those appearances, as they were not technically playing for the national team, just a team of Pakistanis or Australians or South Africans. The practice may have changed retrospectively, but that was always the case at the time. – PeeJay 11:00, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * alright, thank you, I'll keep that in mind! Nautilusblue8 (talk) 15:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Evans No. 27
https://www.manutd.com/en/players-and-staff/detail/jonny-evans is official. Thanks. JMHamo (talk) 10:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)


 * That's not evidence of any form of registration. The United website uses a common database for player profiles and its match hub; they used that match hub for the friendlies we played over the last few days, in which Evans wore 27, so of course his player profile will show that number. However, Evans is on a short-term contract that may not extend into the 2023-24 season, so we have no idea whether he will be given that number when the Premier League season restarts. Thanks. – PeeJay 10:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It's official enough for now. Please stop edit warring as usual. JMHamo (talk) 10:28, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There's no such thing as "official enough". It's either official or it isn't. In United's own news story, they said Evans will wear number 27 for the friendlies, but they have been very careful not to say whether he will continue to do so in any official games. And as I've said, numbers worn in pre-season are not official. Thanks. – PeeJay 10:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * At WT:FOOTY now to get consensus. JMHamo (talk) 10:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Template:PGA Tour seasons
Several editors have now reverted your changes. Please start a discussion and gain consensus before making them again. wjematherplease leave a message... 06:02, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

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nowrap usage
Hey, I have question regarding my edits of 2023–24 Manchester United F.C. season, where I put "nowrap" around scores and I believe you reverted it. I did it because at least in one case the score was divided into two lines because it didn't fit, like "3– 1" and for me it's incorrect and looks bad. I used nowrap function to control any future change in text. Don't you think it's good idea? :) Cheers! Red Devil (talk) 10:24, 9 August 2023 (UTC)


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You started edit war by editing my contribution. I cannot understand your standard and coercion from when you added the word "Province" in Park's place of birth. -- Pinineeon (talk) 17:23, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

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A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Manchester United Badge 1960s-1973.png, has been listed at Files for discussion. Please see the to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:56, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Preseason game summaries
Stop reverting my edits without a discussion. It is your responsibility as the editor seeking inclusion of disputed content to start a discussion, not mine. I will not be sucked into an edit war because you would rather revert twice instead of starting a discussion. Start the discussion yourself at WT:NFL to get a consensus for inclusion of preseason game summaries. Because once again that is your responsibility.-- Rockchalk 717 18:22, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * That content has not been disputed in similar articles for years, why suddenly come along and remove it now? – PeeJay 18:28, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I'm just gonna let this go. I don't have any good argument against inclusion other than we don't usually include it. All I'll ask is you consider adding it to the other 28 team articles too if you have the time.-- Rockchalk 717 18:28, 20 August 2023 (UTC)