User talk:Pencefn/Archive08Q2

The Archive of my Talk Page during April, May and June 2008.

Conversion of Infobox images, etc
I note that you have converted several pages into "hardcoded" image size version, however at the same time you have changed (for example Springburn railway station) from SPT to UK station. This has resulted in the loss of the SPT category and the mention of SPT in the infobox (using the pte). I am sure this was an oversight on your part. --Stewart (talk) 21:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed, I was surprised to see some pages still using the SPT infobox as I thought we had changed them all some time ago (I now see there are about 25 of them left), and in my hastiness to change it I forgot about the other required changes. Thanks for fixing Springburn, I have corrected Dalmarnock now (I think they were the only two?). --- Dreamer  84  22:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Parkhead
I just thought it should be moved to disambiguate it from other stations with that name and it seems that most station articles take the name in which the stations were named just before they closed, so i have seen. Simply south (talk) 16:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Gree Viaduct
Was there today, and got the impression that it was very recent (last few weeks)as there was still the access signage in place from the A736, heavy plant at the bottom, and what looked like recent disturbance of the embankments.

Which was the other viaduct towards Giffen which was demolished earlier? --Stewart (talk) 21:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It was definately demolished in February, or at least the bulk of it was: I was visiting the area every few weeks to see how it was getting on. The viaduct was still intact on 2nd February, and by 1st March all that was left were the bottoms of the pillers and abutments, quite depressing to look at actually! I visited again on 30th March and there was nothing left.


 * Giffenmill was the other viaduct demolished a couple of years ago. Often wonder why it took so long for both of them to be demolished: both were given permission in the mid 90s I think. --- Dreamer  84  22:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Hastings Line
Re your recent revert (which I have left untouched), please see the talk page of the article for a possible solution to any accusation of linkspam. Mjroots (talk) 10:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The cite for that book would be - I can't see an author on the website, but if you know who it is you can add it. Mjroots (talk) 10:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Template:Caledonian colour
Very handy, will save some time when I'm changing colours and won't have to keep copying the code to clipboard. What is your technique for working out the 'lighter' colour? You mentioned something before about 'adding 2' but not sure how that works when I compare a standard colour with its light equivalent. Was trying to work out the light code for solid black for British Rail lines. --- Dreamer  84  11:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think for the BR Black I used a light grey that was suitable for putting a wikilink onto - #888888


 * As regards the "adding 2) - take the CR colour - #496799. Add 2 to each digit 4>>6; 9>>b; 6>>8; 7>>9; 9>>b; 9>>b to give 6b89bb


 * Consider the NBR - #8f691e. To go light add 2 to each digit - 8>>a; f>>f (f is as high as hex goes); 6>>8; 9>>b; 1>>3; e>>f (f is the limit) to give af8b3f


 * Try it for yourself. --Stewart (talk) 11:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah makes sense now, much appreciated. --- Dreamer  84  12:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Larkhall line
Hi Stewart,

I was going around tagging articles, when I came across this orphaned article. I'm not really convinced that it is needed as a standalone article, but its not really covered in the Argyle Line - possible paste into the Argyle Line article and delete? Any thoughts?Pyrotec (talk) 19:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Reply at User talk:Pyrotec
 * Thanks for moving it. I got sidetracked on other tasks.Pyrotec (talk) 16:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate co-ordinates
Whoops, thanks for sorting that. --- Dreamer  84  19:14, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Kirkcaldy Railway Station
thanks for tidying up the references, after the mess i left! i'm still having a bit of difficulty trying to tie references to the same source Kilnburn (talk) 22:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Welsh Highland Railway
Are you sure? My reading of both Google Earth and Ordnance Survey gives what I see as the WHR passing under the Cambrian to the right (east) of Porthmadog station and what appears to be a minor road level crossing. If I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time (as you know LOL) but.. I'll have another look myself shortly. Getting it right is the important thing. Britmax (talk) 15:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes you seem to be right they even had to pay the Cambrian to use it. I will need to sort out the relationship between the WHR and the Festiniog at Porthmadog as they clearly cannot join up at the harbour station with thw WHR coming from the south. I think there was a yard to the south of the crossing over the river from the Harbour Station but this is going to need some digging. Thanks for putting me right. Britmax (talk) 16:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Whishaw templates
Just to say, I've made a few changes to the two Whishaw book templates: there was a reprint of the book in 1842 which makes the 1969 at least the 3rd edition of the book. Since the 2nd edition is available via Google Books, has (as far as I know) no changes to the text but does have some additional plates at the back, I think this would be a better reference than the 1840 edition. --- Dreamer  84  11:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Deletion of Image Redirects
Image redirects haven't really worked for years. They only sorta work at this moment, but certainly not to images that don't exist. WP:CSD is the policy on broken redirects (redirects to pages that don't exist). They are regularly deleted, sometimes by human administrators, occasionally by a bot. Please do not continue to create broken redirects. Cheers. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Find other instances of other users doing the same thing that you're doing and I'll be happy to restore the pages. However, I just took another look at what you had been doing, and you are using code like, which is blatantly wrong. You're missing the preceding colon, causing (sometimes enormous) images to expand on redirect pages. But that doesn't seem to be the only issue. I tested image redirects, and they do not work. Image:Foobar.png does not redirect anywhere. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Troon and Newtonhead
Evening Stewart. While creating a Troon disambig article I seem to have gotten myself confused. On the line with the original GPK&A Troon station, I was mistakenly under the impression that Troon Goods was to the north of the closed passenger station, but now I realise from OS maps that infact they were on the exact same site (I will redo the map in a bit). However, the OS maps also show a large collection of sidings and buildings to the north (which I thought was Troon Goods), just south of Barassie Junction, marked "Carriage and Wagon Works". Could this place be what the Butt directory calls "Barassie Workshops"? I dont have a copy of Jowett handy to check but I believe Butt references a Jowett map for the workshops. Those sidings are still in place I believe, though dont know if they, or the big long track that almost goes to the old Troon station, ever get any use.

Another question, do you know anything about the so called Newtonhead station? It was supposedly on the Monkton to Annbank Branch according to Stansfield, but aside from a listing in Butt there is no other reference to it, and it doesn't seem to appear on any map. --- Dreamer  84  19:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I found another reference to Newtonhead, its marked in the Complete British Railways Maps and Gazetter by C.J. Wignall, which I obtained today. I have my doubts however as it is possible the most inaccurate rail map I have ever seen: Wignall puts Dalry Junction station at Brownhill Junction, Busby station between Ardrossan and West Kilbride, the Troon harbour station north EAST of Troon Goods on a random branch to nowhere, and the 2nd and 3rd Ayr stations about 2 miles apart instead of 200 yards. --- Dreamer  84  16:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Thames-Clyde Express
I've made a start on a diagram for the Thames Clyde Express here. Having noticed your interest in Scottish lines I would welcome any comments and suggestions you may have. Britmax (talk) 19:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Porthmadog WHR
Thanks for the reverts, I would have done it myself! Sorry for the changes but I couldn't see where the bridge was going to go. I'm going to leave this one alone for a while as my cynical views of the limitations of railway preservation projects are obviously left behind by this one. I've rarely been so happy to be wrong about something, though. My invitation to comment on the fledgling attempt to give the Thames - Clyde Express a diagram still stands. Britmax (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Fila
He's popped up again as User:ShakespearesZombie. I've left a comment on dave souza's talk page. --- Dreamer  84  08:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:CRcolour
Template:CRcolour has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. RichardΩ612  Ɣ |ɸ 21:56, May 14, 2008 (UTC)

Modern Railways reference
As you've probably noticed I've been trying to get Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr Railway up to GA status (and hopefully eventually FA status), but the Cook Street Bridge reference has reared its head again as an issue (see our previous discussion here). The reference needs to be fixed before the GA can be passed, or alternatively we perhaps could hide the sentence as a comment until an exact source is tracked down? I'm also keen to hear if you have any suggestions for improving the article. I intend next to work on expanding the LMS days section and to get some rolling stock info put in for that period as well as the G&SW era. Some period photographs are also a must I think. --- Dreamer  84  19:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of List of farmers' markets in the United Kingdom
An article that you have been involved in editing, List of farmers' markets in the United Kingdom, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/List of farmers' markets in the United Kingdom. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? TerriersFan (talk) 21:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Pre-history of St Mary's
Stewart,

The preamble to our St Mary's Constitution says that the congregation was founded by Alexander Duncan in 1715. This therefore can be regarded as the source. Perhaps more interesting is where the writers of the Constitution got this information from. It seems they got it from Dr James Gordon, a Glasgow historian in the 19th century (also, the priest at St Andrew's-by-the-Green), who got it from an earlier Glasgow historian called James Cleland writing in 1816. The reason I did not add references was because they are the ones on the page I created for Alexander Duncan, which also includes a brief summary of Glasgow's Episcopalian congregation during his lifetime.

In outline, from Diestablishment in 1689, Episcopalians met in various locations, such as Provost Sir John Bell's lodging (1703), Paisley Abbey(!)(1710), a meeting house location unknown (1712-14), a house in Bell Street, another meeting house in Broad Close, High Street, Candleriggs, Stockwell Street, whilst they were proscribed. Proscription ended in 1792, and from 1799 they rented a room in the Grammar School until they could build Old St Mary's in Renfield Street in 1825.

I have just completed my research on the early Episcopalians of Glasgow, as 52 pages of text, and can bore for Scotland on the subject. I propose to expand the history section, although probably not before I head for warmer climes next week.

Regards, Roger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clydekelvin (talk • contribs) 17:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Date St Mary's opened

 * for discussion see User talk:Clydekelvin
 * --Stewart (talk) 17:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Founding of the congregation
Stewart

The most important thing to remember is that because of the penal laws, etc., there is no continuous record of the congregation, so it is a question of trawling for information, and hoping for the best. Most of the standard history is based on secondary sources, primarily in the 19th century, and they distort. Particularly, Wodrow's early letters were not published until the 20th century, by which time the standard history had already been formulated.

The earliest contemporary reference to Glasgow's Episcopalians comes from Robert Wodrow, and dates from January 1703 when there was a riot following a sermon preached to mark King Charles the Martyr day. Wodrow writes that "We had on Saturday last, January 30, a preaching by Mr Hay in Provost Bell's lodgings. The rabble and some collegians disturbed them and broke all their windows, till the magistrates and Principal dispersed them . . . The Episcopal ministers had a meeting the night before wherein Mr Fullarton opposed their preaching in town or, at least, openly.  He told them this was an incensing of the people and giving them an occasion of making a riot.  He advised them to go out to Barrowfield and preach there. &c"

Wodrow was the minister of Eaglesham, and it seems he relish recording gossip, and stories putting the Episcopalians in a bad light, so it's as well to treat his evidence with caution. How, for instance, does he know what happened at the meeting the night before as he can't have been there in person?

There are, however, a number of inferences we can reasonably make from his comments.

1. He expresses no surprise that there are Episcopalians in Glasgow, which suggests that they are well established. 2. It seems that in meeting in Provost Bell's lodging to mark King Charles the Martyr, the Episcopalians were being quite aggressive. 3. It seems that Barrowfield provided a safer and less aggressive haven for the Episcopalian community. 4. It seems that there were a number of clergy present: Mr Hay, Mr Fullarton and others unidentified. And, again, this is not regarded by Wodrow as unusual. 4. The year 1703 is significant because it is the first King Charles the Martyr day since the death of William III, and it seems that Episcopalians hoped that their treatment under Anne would be more tolerant, so there is an element of poking their heads above the parapet, after keeping hidden since 1689.

There is a list of congregation members dated 1713, and this makes it pretty clear that there was an Episcopalian presence in Glasgow continuously from Disestablishment.

So, where does the date 1715 come from?

Here is how the preamble to the Cathedral Constitution starts:

"Whereas the Members of the Church of Scotland disestablished shortly after the Revolution on 1688 regularly met for public worship in Glasgow after the Revolution, and the Reverend Alexander Duncan, subsequently Bishop of Glasgow, presided over them as Minister in the year 1715; and whereas the Congregation has been uninterruptedly continued under regular Episcopal jurisdiction, and whereas in the year 1823, the Congregation was then under the pastoral care of the Reverend Alexander Jamieson and of the Reverend George Almond as his Assistant and Successor, and in 1824, a piece of ground was purchased on the east side of Renfield Street, and a Church erected thereon, to which was given the name of Saint Mary, which was opened for public worship on the 22nd day of May 1825, under a special licence from the Right Reverend Daniel Sandford, D.D. Bishop of the Diocese, &c."

So, the first priest mentioned in relation to the congregation is Alexander Duncan in 1715. This information may come from a memory or lost record within the congregation, or it may come from the anthologist historian Dr Gordon, who got it from Cleland. Cleland may have got it from Jamieson (Cleland quotes the size of Jamieson's stipend, which suggests they had some sort of contact). The problem is that whilst this date is citable, whereas 1688/89 cannot be cited, I reckon it is wrong.

I will e-mail to you a copy of my historical researches to the bonnyton address.

Roger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clydekelvin (talk • contribs) 22:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Sparkford

 * for discussion see User talk:Pyrotec
 * Stewart (talk) 21:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Stewart, Thanks for the reminder, I've checked & changed them all - they were the same. I hope the airport stay is by choice and not imposed.Pyrotec (talk) 21:36, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Rest of line

 * ''for discussion see User talk:Simply south
 * --Stewart (talk) 15:38, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Future projects

 * for discussion see User_talk:Simply_south
 * --Stewart (talk) 19:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * See reply on my page. Simply south (talk) 19:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Johnson-Glasgow

 * ''for discussion see User talk:Pyrotec
 * --Stewart (talk) 20:05, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Aintree stations
Thanks for the remarks. I am thinking along these lines (no pun intended) and will look at the articles you suggest for ideas. Britmax (talk) 06:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I must go to work now but HERE you will find the first work towards a disambig page. Comments welcome. Britmax (talk) 08:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Bellahouston station
Hi Stewart. Thanks for spotting that. I've replied on my talkpage.Pyrotec (talk) 16:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Answer about an image on Commons
Hello, you've got an answer on commons:Image talk:Class 303 at Wemyss Bay (April 1984).jpg. Regards, → Spiritia  15:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello again. I saw your edit stating "for use on English Wikipedia only" and I'd like to again explain to you that this is a non-sense and I reverted your edit.
 * Ten months ago, on 1 September 2007 you chose to release this image under free license GFDL + CC-BY-SA. This release is irrevocable and lasts forever. Consciously or not (seemingly not), you have granted rights to everybody to use your work, to make copies and modifications, to publish it elsewhere. Now, any attempts to restrict the usage of this image are impossible, what's given for free remains free forever. I'd advise you to learn more about free licenses and carefully decide for the future which licenses would suit you best, if any. For already uploaded images however you may only relicense them in the direction to a make them freer, and NOT more restrictive than before. For instance if you have once chosen to license a work under GFDL (reserving some rights like copyleft and attribution), you MAY now decide to relicense it to public domain (thus giving up even these rights). But you MAY NOT go the other way round because this will infringe the freedoms of potential content reusers who have made use of your works in the meanwhile, aware that they use a free content. Please, make sure that you understand the meaning of free content.
 * Have in mind that if you want to contribute to Wikipedia with personally produced illustrative content, only a free license is option. You may chose among several available free licenses, and the major decision making and mindset forming criteria are listed here: freedomdefined:Licenses. But you must forget of statements like "for educational purposes", "for Wikipedia only", these are a huge irrelevancy. On every page that you open for editing, is written If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it. Same holds for images, as well. I do hope that after reading the links which I gave you, you'd end up with a clearer vision what can and what cannot be done in the situation. Because this will apply also to all your uploads made up-to-date and maybe will influence your personal licensing policy for the future. By the way, the multiple license GFDL + CC-BY-SA that you have chosen (or hitted by chance :-) ) is one of the best licensing options as for you as a copyright holder, as well as for all other downstream users of your content.
 * Should you have further questions, feel free to contact me again. → Spiritia  07:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)