User talk:Peregrine Fisher/Archive 7

Chloe Sullivan
That doesn't change anything, you are aware of that right? You have not adding anything new that was not already stated somewhere else. There is nothing on the page that warrants separate mentioning. There is no cultural impact for the character. All of her casting information is already stated on the main page.  BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  01:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just trying to improve a page, - Peregrine Fisher 02:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The improvements need to be something new, not more redundancies. The article is written like a biography. There is nothing culturally significant mentioned (other than that piece you added about Lynda Carter, which is about her and not Allison Mack or Chloe). The whole idea of the merger was because there was nothing on the pages that wasn't already on the main article (a fact you've made even more obvious when you put duplicate casting information there), with exception being the enormous plot information. Right now, all the information on the page is already better summarized on the main article. If we need that much extended plot information we can link to her Wikia article.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  02:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just trying to be comprehensive. - Peregrine Fisher 02:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand. But it's going to the side when the article should be going forward.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  02:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You have to admit, in the least, Jason Teague (Jensen Ackles character) and Whitney Fordman (Eric Johnson) have no business being on their own. They were both one season wonders, and not deeply part of the show. Their articles are entirely fictional biographies, and the one OOU thing on Whitney's page (Eric's reason for departure) conflicts with what he told Paul Simpson in the first and second seasons' companion. And since it isn't sourced.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  12:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with you about those two characters. - Peregrine Fisher 17:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm really less concerned about Chloe and Lionel, but they are added because they are in horrible shape and I didn't want to hear the "well these two characters are in just as bad of shape, but you aren't merging them" excuse. I have enough in the books I have to provide some OOU info about the actors' take on the characters, but nothing when it comes to significant coverage outside of the show itself. Nothing from other reliable sources talking about Lionel's extreme parenting technique.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  17:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think once the show starts up again we can find stuff for Lionel and Chloe. - Peregrine Fisher 17:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what will be there. We need some more sources characterizing her, because the companion books (even using all six when they become available) will not be enough. I mean, it will be enough informtion, but it will be limited to certain people's perspectives.  BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  17:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We might be able to cobble something together from here and [here. - [[User:Peregrine Fisher|Peregrine Fisher]] 17:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll have to look at them later. I'll see what I can do about cleaning up the IU problems with Chloe and Lionel, and go through the first season companion again for more perspectives from the actors after I clean up the reception section of Batman Begins.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bignole (talk • contribs) 17:40, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
 * OK. I'll look for some lionel/lex stuff. - Peregrine Fisher 17:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

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List of Akatsuki members
The List of Akatsuki members AfD you participated in has been brought to deletion review here. Please take a look if you're interested. — xDanielx T/C 20:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

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Moving material to Wikiquote or other projects
Please do not transfer material from Wikipedia to Wikiquote or other projects, as you did for Premiere (Farscape episode) (to Farscape), without following the destination projects' guidelines (usually found under Help:Transwiki on the project). Simply copying and pasting material violates GFDL, as the editors who actually contributed the material are not given credit for its presence in the Wikimedia projects. I can say that for English Wikiquote only, we have adopted an informal shortcut of citing the source Wikipedia article (with link) in the edit summary, like so:



You should also notify Wikipedians exactly where it's going by including a similar WQ link in the WP edit summary, like so:



Not only does this avoid problems with articles that have different titles, but it makes it much easier for editors to trace the move and follows the GFDL expectation of an link back to the originating Wikimedia project. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me here or on my Wikiquote talk page. Thank you for your cooperation. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll do what you suggest in the future, but I'm curious why including the source URL in the target pages edit summary isn't just as good as an internal link? - Peregrine Fisher 03:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a good question. One problem is that we're not even sure a clickable link back to the article whose edit history provides the required contributor credit is sufficient for GFDL purposes, let alone acceptable as a form of transwiki. Following existing expectations of non-Wikimedia sites using Wikimedia material would suggest a clickable link at the bottom of the using page (i.e., the target article). en:WQ is trying this compromise because it seems better than the total disregard for transwiki policy, specifically Wikiquote's, that many quote-transferring Wikipedians have been showing lately. (Believe me, I'm happy you gave us something useful!) Technically, both the source and the destrination project are supposed to have a record at Transwiki of the move, though editors in many projects routinely ignore this requirement. The wiki link provides a substitute for the expected links in the transwiki log on both projects, and is arguably more useful, as there is no intermediate page to reference between the origin and destination. It is also is less likely to be cut off by the limitations of edit summary length. But it's admittedly an act of desparation in the face of widespread failure to follow policy. I appreciate your willingness to work with us to reduce this problem! ~ Jeff Q (talk) 11:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Manga entry
Like your boat.

If you'd like to see what I've got so far for fixing up the Manga entry, please have a look at my User page "User:Timothy_Perper/Sandbox"

I'll be adding the references today or tomorrow.

Thanks for your help!

Timothy Perper 19:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for cite to manga sales == ==

Good one! It even references some real Japanese sources!

Can we dig up some US sales figures?

Thanks.

Timothy Perper 04:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Can I ask about another problem?
I edited baku (spirit), and noticed -- it's impossible not to -- that the image is a blur. I downloaded it, upped the contrast (thank you Photoshop) and now have a fairly good image. One can actually see that the baku has the head of an elephant.

I have no idea at all how to put the new image into the entry.

Can I send it to you and would you replace the present image with the new one?

Timothy Perper 04:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Sent you an email about Baku
Hi,

I sent you an email with the Baku (spirit) image. I'm not sure you got it, so this is only a heads-up.

Timothy Perper 14:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I got the email. Could you send it to me again, but in JPEG format? TIFF is owned by Adobe, which is a no no on wikipedia. - Peregrine Fisher 16:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * TIFF is easily converted in GIMP (download). Incidentally, PNG is also a free and widely supported format. / edg ☺ ★ 16:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Sent you a JPEG file
Hi, Peregrine,

I just emailed you a JPEG file of the new Baku image. Hope it's OK -- let me know.

Timothy Perper 00:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Image
What are you talking about?Brian Boru is awesome 01:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Fathom image
What will, I'm sure, be the first of many posts...

I'm not sure I agree with you on Image:00 FADW-01c.jpg. As I said, I totally see the Kiana justification, but given that we don't even have a full article on the Dawn of War miniseries, and given that the visual tone is pretty standard for Fathom - Turner art with a blue color scheme - I'm not convinced that the Dawn of War identification is, in this case, a vital need. I'm willing to be persuaded, though - particularly of Dawn of War is just undercovered and deserves its own article. Phil Sandifer 01:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah. Thanks. Phil Sandifer 01:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Image:Teen_Titans_season_1_episode_8.png
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New page for Manga formatting
Hi, Peregrine,

I just started a new user page for formatting the new material on the manga revision. It's at User:Timothy_Perper/Manga.

I'm using it only for formatting. Thought you might be interested.

Timothy Perper 03:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Glad you like it.
It'd be great if you could format the new material. That's the stuff on Timothy Perper/Manga, not on the Sandbox.

If we can keep this up-to-date, it'd be a big help. I'm going to go to work on the next sections tmw and the next few days. The new stuff I'll put into TP/ Sandbox, and it can be transferred to TP/Manga when it's ready to be formatted.

Timothy Perper 04:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Manga looking good!
The new references and formatting looks good. It's kind of neat that you can cross out stuff. Onwards!

Timothy Perper 04:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Manga looking even better; new page coming soon
The Intro looks really good.

I'm going to create a new Sandbox page, called Sandbox2, for the next section, which is History. Then I'll paste in the opening stuff, which is first draft and you can comment. The existing history section is really nothing more than biographical material about several artists, and reflects a one-sided "fanboy" approach to the subject. I'm going deeper than that.

When the Intro is formatted, then we can put something on the Manga and Manga/Anime Project pages telling people it's done and warning them that we're about to replace the existing introduction with the new one. Then I can archive the existing pages, and we can move to Sandbox2 and Manga2, which will be the history section.

I think that makes more sense than waiting until it's all done and then replacing the original. This way, people will get used to it. I hope.

Whaddya think?

Timothy Perper 14:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

History rewrite
OK, we're moving much closer to fixing up the Introduction. I *really* like the way your editing came out!

Let me know when the Intro editing is done, and we can check the refs and stuff, especially the websites.

The first part of the history rewrite is on TP Sandbox2. It is very abbreviated, without references, but the ideas are starting to fall into place. I've got more references to look up and check, and then I have to figure out how we can compress, or otherwise do something with, the fanboy-style biographies in the present version. I don't want to eliminate them, but weave them into some kind of framework that makes sense historically.

At the moment, I'm citing mostly books and some papers, but there are some first-rate websites out there. It's the damn blogs and fanboy sites I want to avoid, not because of some Wiki ruling or whatever, but because they are often completely untrustworthy.

More coming soon.

Timothy Perper 17:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Can we work Star Wars (manga) into the text? == ==

The reason is that it turns out I can use Star Wars (manga) in the history section, to illustrate and exemplify the principles of cultural transnationalism.

I can introduce the idea cold, that is, without a precursor example, but it strikes me as better if I can *illustrate* "transnationalism" by pointing to Star Wars/Manga (which has already been mentioned). Thus, when Tatsumi writes about globalization, we need either to DEFINE or ILLUSTRATE what he means. In the context of this article, it's a flow of cultural information back and forth across the Pacific Ocean, and it can be defined abstractly (with a bunch of distinctly (in my opinion) non-intuitive definitions) OR can be defined concretely (which I prefer). Thus, "Star Wars" is, on one hand, a distinctively *American* cultural product, but once we encounter the *manga* of Star Wars, we are invited to see how that that cultural product has been adopted and adapted into a J-Pop phenomenon. Thus what is Here is now There, and vice versa, or, to put it differently, "Star Wars" is no longer American or Japanese but is both. Hence international transnational youth culture, or so Tatsumi thinks, and I can't disagree.

Another example is the manga "Kingdom Hearts," which uses Disney characters, and I have a fascinating book about Japanese hip-hop.

Here's the reference to Tatsumi.

Tatsumi Takayuki 2006 Full Metal Apache: Transactions between Cyberpunk Japan and Avant-Pop America. Durham, NC: Duke University Press. ISBN 0-8223-3774-6.

Timothy Perper 00:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Star Wars ref
Thanks! That's what we need.

It will come up again later, when we're discussing transnationalism in the history section. Let's put the Star Wars manga ref in, and then decide again when that part of the history section is done. That will be in the next day or so. Then, depending on what you think of *that* section, we can either leave the Star Wars manga comment in place or remove it.

I'm going to put some history references in today, and then get back to writing more on history.

Onwards...

Timothy Perper 07:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

References put into Sandbox2 for History opening section
I just put a reference list in my Sandbox2 for the History section.

I also added a suggested paragraph in the COMMENTS section down at the end of Sandbox2 that discusses cultural transnationalism and uses the references you found for Star Wars and so on. It's actually a parenthesis, but it's needed -- maybe? -- to explain what these people mean by cultural transnationalism. Let me know what you think of it.

Timothy Perper 16:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

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Recent Progress on Manga Revision
Hi,

I hope you still have time to work on these pages with me. I don't want to impose on your time, but your help and encouragement have been very valuable to me.

I spent some time learning the rudiments of formatting this weekend, and formatted part of Manga2, the history section. I also made some editorial changes, for example including the material on Star Wars. That part still needs the references to be transferred, but I'll get to that soon enough.

There's another part that needs a reference -- right up your alley, too. It's to tagging, meaning kids painting grafitti on buildings, used to wonderfully anachronistic effect in the anime of Samurai Champloo. If you're so inclined, take a look at that paragraph (transnational cultural exchange).

It's moving along...

Timothy Perper 16:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Removal of deletion tags on Flo jalin
Hi Peregrine Fisher. I noticed you removed all the tags on Flo jalin, asserting notability. This article has been deleted twice (including earlier today under the name Flo Jalin); the entire current version is a copyright vio of this. I'm not 100% up on the relevant policies, but if you contest the speedy delete, should it be listed at AfD for a more thorough discussion? Regards, EyeSerene TALK 20:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems like the IGN interviews establish her notability, but if the page is a copy vio, it can be speedily deleted for that reason. - Peregrine Fisher 20:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I pointed out the copyvio, and some copyediting is taking place. I don't know that even with the IGN interviews & swimsuit contest wins this passes the notability bar, but I'll hold off on AfD for now to give a chance for improvement. It always seems a shame when the first contact a new editor has with anyone is a notification that their baby has been dragged out and shot... often within minutes of it being created ;) EyeSerene TALK 20:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

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Graphic novels and "citation needed"
I posted some corrections/amendments to what Kyuu4 said about graphic novels and I asked him to "reconsider." I also made an alternative suggestion. Basically, he's using the current term -- "graphic novel" -- for a much wider range of stuff. So maybe you could change what he said. along the lines of my response to him on the Manga page.

Someone, I know not who, put a "citation needed" thingie after the word "komikku." Here's the link -- it's to Breen's on-line Japanese dictionary. This isn't a fancy deal needing books.

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/jwb/wwwjdic?1C

I see that Cattus accepted holding off adding internal links.

Timothy Perper 17:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Changes to the Manga intro
Boy, do I agree with you about THAT.

I already posted the same thing in reply to KyuuA4 and his inaccurate replacement of the manga definition. It's on the manga/anime talk page.

Lemme look at the new links in a little bit.

Timothy Perper 18:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Lent is the perfect reference PLUS manga definition
You have a damn good eye. John Lent is the *perfect* reference for this -- he's the dean of American experts on foreign language comics.

Now, about KyuuA4's redefinition. Here's the crucial link.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/manga

And here are the definitions given:


 * 2 results for: manga


 * Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
 * man·ga [mahng-guh, mang‑] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
 * –noun
 * a Japanese graphic novel, typically intended for adults, characterized by highly stylized art.
 * [Origin: 1985–90; < Japn: lit., cartoon, comic strip]


 * Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
 * Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


 * Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source
 * manga
 * "Japanese comic books or graphic novels," c.1984, from Jap., "cartoon, caricature," lit. "involuntary pictures." Term said to have been coined 1814 by artist Katsushika Hokusai to "convey a sense of free-flowing composition and quirky style." See anime.


 * Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timothy Perper (talk • contribs) 18:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Started the TP/Sandbox3
I just created TP/Sandbox3 for the next section of the manga article.

I'll put stuff on it in the next day or so. It looks like the problem with the opening definition of manga may be settling down. I'll put more comments onto TP/Sandbox and elsewhere.

I think I'll create some kind of index of these Sandboxes.

Onwards.

Timothy Perper 01:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Manga2 is almost ready to go live
As soon as you transfer the Star Wars manga references to TP/Manga, we'll have something close to a final draft for putting into the main entry.

Why don't you take a look at it and see what needs to be done?

Timothy Perper 02:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Dates in the revision
They're simply markers to keep the references straight. They don't belong in the final text.

Timothy Perper 03:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, cool. - Peregrine Fisher 03:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Problem with reference 23
The main part of the reference got left out. Can you fix that?

Timothy Perper 03:31, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Disregard this. It was about one of the ORIGINAL references. OUR references are fine. Timothy Perper 04:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

TP/Combined
OK, looks good.

Can I suggest we come back tmw when at least I will be fresher? I want to give it a more alert overall read. I didn't see any problems, but maybe I'm getting blurry.

So I'll be back on tmw morning and we can finalize this, including going live.

Timothy Perper 04:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Talk to you tomorrow. - Peregrine Fisher 04:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

TP/Combined
OK, looks good.

Can I suggest we come back tmw when at least I will be fresher? I want to give it a more alert overall read. I'm not sure right now how to fix the problem with then last paragraph at the moment, so tmw? It needs some kind of conclusion, but maybe something else is better.

So I'll be back on tmw morning and we can finalize this, including going live.

Timothy Perper 04:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Combined material
Well, I'm feeling a *little* more alert! I went through the combined material and it looks good. At the moment, the last paragraph of origins seems OK -- it's just a summary. So, whenever you're ready, it can go live.

I'm going offline today to set up the next part, which is on Sandbox3. Timothy Perper 13:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Got a good reference here.
Can you add this to the entry? It's a good reference to the manga/komikku material (which is reference #1, so this should be #2 right after to Lent). See under "terms." This is one of the best on-line summaries of manga history I know of.

1998 A history of manga: Characteristics of Japanese manga.

http://www.dnp.co.jp/museum/nmp/nmp_i/articles/manga/manga2.html

Copyright (c) Dai Nippon Printing Co., Ltd. 1998. (So they're the publisher.)

PS. I have some material for Sandbox3 that I'll add soon. It is VERY first-drafty, but I need your take on it.

Timothy Perper 15:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

How do I add...
Hey, Peregrine, you have this neat little thing on your page that links directly to one of the Sandboxes. How do I add one of those to my talk page to get here to this page?

Timothy Perper 16:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Nice.
Looks good!

Timothy Perper 16:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

New stuff in Sandbox3
New material on history in Sandbox3. It needs your eagle eye and commentary. It also needs a bunch of references, but let's talk about it too.

Timothy Perper 16:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Kasuga
I put a reply to him on the Manga talk page. I also pasted something onto his own Talk page telling him I answered him. His views nicely illustrate the "manga comes from stuff before the War" side of the debate in the material we just put up.

Timothy Perper 22:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah. The changes we are making are attracting attention.  An editor who who understands Japanese could be useful, if he decides to help out.  He already seems to know about some Japanese book sources. - Peregrine Fisher 22:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, and I'd like him to help. Someone who can search Google Japan wouid be very helpful. I already have some questions -- you can try to search them too. My sources don't deal very much with manga from the 1950s and 1960s. We can live with that (just don't include it), but I'd rather have a better idea of that era than I do. Gekiga dates from then (I think), and so do the early roots of shojo manga, then drawn by men and not very popular among girls at all. I have heard, but have no Wiki-citable source, that in those days girls read their brothers' manga. Eventually, these girls got sick of this, and in 1969-1971 came into manga publishing with a real splash.


 * These are the "Showa 24" or "Class of 1969" (need more citations) and I will connect them to Sazae-san, but my sources don't have details. Perhaps the greatest shojo manga of all time comes from this period, the 1971 "Rose of Versailles" by Riyoko Ikeda, which (a piece of trivia) appeared in a shojo manga magazine that then apparently sold **400,000** copies in one week. It is a masterpiece, but never translated into English, though there's a French translation that we have. It's an odd experience reading about the French Revolution in a manga written by a Japanese woman and translated into French.


 * So we need info on Gekiga and on the Showa 24. A lot of it is in Schodt and Gravett, but I'd like to include more from the web that people can link to if they want.


 * Timothy Perper 00:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Where is ...
Where is the reference you found to the quote about Sazae-san? I want to incorporate the Craig reference into Sandbox3. You can put into the comments section of Sandbox3. Thx. Timothy Perper 03:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess...
OK, if you say so. The meta-information line is more or less standard in the work I do, but I'll take your word for it that it isn't Wikipedia style.

But the subheadings have to stay -- the first being the An Overview of Ideas about Manga History subhead, the next being "After WW2." then the "Before WW2" subhead.

There's a real reason for that. The first ("Overview") section gives two positions about manga history. The way I've written it, it sounds -- I hope it sounds -- neutral and, if anything, rather academic. But that's misleading. Instead, it's deliberately NPOV. Let me explain.

The two sides can start flame wars with each other, if not on Wiki, then elsewhere. At root, the argument has nothing to do with manga, not really. The "manga comes from American influences" POV is associated with the sometimes explicit and racist opinion that those stupid little yellow people could not have thought of this without us. The other view, which does not deny a role for American influences, says that manga builds on older Japanese aesthetic traditions and also says that Japanese traditions did not need America, but, when exposed to American art, used Japanese aesthetic history in innovative and adaptive ways.

However, the second view is also associated with Japanese nationalism. When Kasuga said in his attack on us on the Manga talk page that when by removing Rakuten Kitazawa, we were writing "nonsenses" (his word) and then accused us of knowing nothing about the history of manga, you get something of the flavor of how intense this fight is (his word was "heated"). Do NOT underestimate the virulence of these feelings. There are people in the field of Japanese art studies who will not pay any attention to my scholarly work (I mean published scholarly work, not an article on Wiki) simply because I am American. Murakami's view -- which I summarized *very* briefly in the Overview -- is especially clear: he believes that the Americans have destroyed Japanese aesthetic virility. At base, he accuses the Americans of having feminized Japanese men (thus making them into their sexual servants) by forcing cute (kawaii) images on Japan. His argument is more complex, but his message is clear nonetheless.

Tatsumi represents the opposite pole of Japanese scholarship. He says that these forms of art are "transnational," meaning they combine traditions of Western and Oriental art with of great creativity. Wendy Wong is in the same "transnationalist" camp concerning Chinese and Hong Kong comics.

But I will not SAY any of this in the manga article. Instead, I opted to describe the two viewpoints without choosing between them (Wiki NPOV). And now we move to the sections on Manga after the War (which was influenced by Western comics) and after that to Manga before the War (which was influenced by the West during the Meiji period) and was sui generis before that.

I hope this makes it clearer why I put the subheadings in and also why Kasuga was willing to work with us after I said I do NOT deny the role of Japanese history in manga, even though there are Westerners who do.

Let me go find an example, and I'll be right back.

Timothy Perper 23:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Example
This is from the original manga article and is part of what got removed (I added the italics).


 * Modern manga developed from a mixture of woodblock printed books and pictures with foreign art movements. When the United States began trading with Japan, Japan entered a period of rapid modernization and globalization. Thus, they imported foreign artists to teach their students things such as line, form and color, which were never concentrated on in ukiyo-e as the idea behind the picture was normally considered more important [citation needed].

Here, the writer explicitly says that Japanese art students and teachers needed foreign artists to teach the Japanese the rudiments of drawing and design. It's an example of the racist "those stupid little yellow people need us Westerners" viewpoint. Now, the statement is also profoundly ignorant, because Japanese art has, from its beginnings, been characterized by supreme mastery of line, form, and color.

This viewpoint falls into what Edward Said has called "Orientalism," the belief among Westerners of Western superiority over Asian culture, art, and civilization.

I think you can see how this view has been expressed in US anti-Japanese sentiment in WW2 movies that depicted the Japanese in such ways.

So we need to bend over backwards to avoid all this, and the An Overview of Ideas about Manga History section and subheading does precisely that, or it was intended to do that. So we have to have a subheading that points to the content of the section. The section and the headings aren't in there for fluff or mere reference mongering. If one knows the underlying fight -- indeed, war -- it's in there to make absolutely sure that the article is genuinely NPOV and perceived that way.

I hope that's clearer.

Timothy Perper 23:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Headers, subheaders
Thanks.

You have a good point about putting something between the Level 1 header ("history" or "origins") and the start of the "Two Views" material.

Maybe we can concoct that after the three sections are done. It should be something general but informative. But I do want the "Two Views" header.

Origins
 * brief stuff, to be added later.

Two Views
 * stuff we have

After WW2
 * stuff we're working on

Before WW2
 * stuff to come.

How does that look?

Timothy Perper 06:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That sounds good. I guess whatever goes between level 1 and 2 should really summarize all the upcoming subsections, not just the two views. - Peregrine Fisher 06:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

New material in Sandbox3
I added some new material in Sandbox3 and transferred the new section to Manga3. I updated SDBXIndex too.

If you feel like exercising your skills at finding references, there's some stuff we need in Sandbox3.

Thanks!

Timothy Perper 20:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

New fixups on Sandbox3
I did some fixups on Sandbox3, added more complete refs for Thorn and Yoshida, and created a list at the bottom for the footnotes. They get woven into the citations, but it's useful to separate them while we work on this.

Can you do me a favor and try to find a reference for US censorship policies during the Occupation? The man who was in charge of the Civilian Censorship Division was named Gordon Prange, and the ENTIRE collection of all Japanese publications from 1945-1952 are on microfilm and available at the Gordon W. Prange Collection at the University of Maryland. Apparently that includes ALL the manga published in that period, an archive of incalcuable value -- but no one seems to have used it for studying manga.

There may be some other things that need references too. I'm working on them, but if you have time, your skills at digging up stuff will be most valuable!

A couple of people made some minor changes in the article; they're OK with me.

Timothy Perper 05:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Add a reference to the main article
Can you do me a favor and add a reference to the main article (that's the one that's up already)?

Bouquillard, Jocelyn and Christophe Marquet 2007 Hokusai: First Manga Master. New York: Abrasms.

It goes with the mention of Hokusai's better known use of the word "manga." Yes, his name is Christophe, no "r" -- it's French. We use it later also.

Timothy Perper 13:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Add a reference to the main article
Can you do me a favor and add a reference to the main article (that's the one that's up already)?

Bouquillard, Jocelyn and Christophe Marquet 2007 Hokusai: First Manga Master. New York: Abrams.

It goes with the mention of Hokusai's better known use of the word "manga" (third paragraph from then end). Yes, his name is Christophe, no "r" -- it's French. We use it later also.

Timothy Perper 13:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Manga3 has stuff ready for formatting
I put the new material I have into Manga3. There are some references to come, and there will be more text coming, but the text so far says about what I want it to say.

Take a look and comment on it.

Will you be able to format it?

Thanks!

Timothy Perper 14:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

New section formatting
I think it can be formatted, at least what we have. I have two more refs to add, but we might as well work on it while the delivery people take their sweet time about it.

So if you think it reads OK, go ahead and make the transfer to Combined.

Timothy Perper 21:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I added one new ref (the book arrived late today). It's Lee 2000, the Sazae-san reference you found. It's also one of those "X in Y" references; "Lee in Craig 2000." I guess we have to wait for Uno, the other missing reference, until tmw.

Timothy Perper 23:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Manga3 ready to move?
Manga3 needs one more reference (Uno to come).

I should have it by Monday, if amazon.com doesn't screw up. If you're willing to wait for that, sure, move Manga3 into Combined. This is like playing with a 15 puzzle.

Manga3 has a new sub-sub-head. Martha likes subheading things, and she's convinced me. I started a Sandbox4 (it's on SDBXIndex) for the next section.

Onwards!

Timothy Perper 15:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

One of the Schodt 2007's should be Schodt 1986
This is minor in TP/Combined. The reference to no militarism in manga is to Schodt 1986.

I can fix this later.

Timothy Perper 16:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll leave it up to you. - Peregrine Fisher 16:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll be back in a bit
I'm off for lunch and to do some chores around the house. Be back later. Timothy Perper 16:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Ref to be inserted
I don't want to mess with Combined, so here's a reference that needs to be added:

It goes in this sentence:

which, Kern 2006 points out, predates Katsuhiko Hokusai’s better known later usage by several decades.[29]

This sentence becomes

which, Kern 2006 points out, predates Katsuhiko Hokusai’s better known later usage ref here by several decades.[29]

The reference to be added is

Bouquillard, Jocelyn and Christophe Marquet 2007 Hokusai: First Manga Master. New York: Abrams.

Christophe has no "r" at the end.

Sorry about that.

Timothy Perper 21:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Did you ask me about the following sentence?


 * "Superficially Sarii may seem to resemble Samantha, familiar to American viewers as the witch from the 1964 US television show Bewitched, or Jennifer from the 1942 film I Married a Witch, but unlike Samantha, a married woman with her own daughter, Sarii is a pre-teenager who faces the problems of growing up and mastering the responsibilities of forthcoming adulthood."


 * I don't think it needs a reference because it's about the reader, who might think this, and we're trying to correct a potential misapprehension. Actually, I could cite something, namely, the Wikpedia current entry for Sally the Witch but I don't want to seem to criticize another article.


 * Let me go get the quote.


 * Timothy Perper 21:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * OK. Added the ref you wanted, and am working on the Schodt and Thorn refs.  I looked on the web a bit, and found people saying Sally the Witch is related to Bewitched, but haven't found a reliable source for it.  It seems a little original researchy to make the comparison without backup.  It's one of those gray areas.  We're allowed to impartially describe media, but comparing between medias is frowned upon. - Peregrine Fisher 21:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's a quote from the Wiki entry on Sally the Witch.


 * "The first manga series was drawn by Mitsuteru Yokoyama in 1966. He obtained the concept of it directly from an American sitcom: "Bewitched" (known in Japan as "Oku-sama wa Majo"/"My Wife is a Witch")."


 * First, no citation. Second, POV -- "They got it from the Americans."


 * Yes, my version sounds OR-like, but maybe one of the refs you found could be put in with a "for example see" phrase.


 * The idea that Mahōtsukai Sarii "came from" Bewitched and/or I Married a Witch sounds plausible until you see the differences. My own guess (which is OR and I won't put in!) is that Yokoyama had seen both and thought they were kind of cute or something. If so, the influence was indirect at best and is another of those transnational jobbies. And it's unprovable, hence not Wiki-Verifiable, hence neither we nor the editors who did Sally the Witch should include it. But our sentence points to differences in the stories, which I think is perfectly legitimate.


 * Just occurred to me -- it's not *me* who thinks that the two are similar. It's a number of American readers who think so.


 * I don't want to drop this because I want to focus on the kinds of details that do make a difference in a story like Mahōtsukai Sarii.


 * Timothy Perper 22:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Combined looks good!

Timothy Perper 22:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent)It looks like it's going to be one of those things that is true, but not verifiable. I've seen a number of things on the web that says the author of Sally the Witch specifically mention bewitched as an influence, but none of them were reliable sources. We'll work something out. Maybe there is something in Japanese. - Peregrine Fisher 22:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * How about a footnote:


 * American readers may be reminded of the 1964 US television show Bewitched or the 1942 US film I Married a Witch when they see Mahotsukai Sarii (for examples of this viewer opinion, see websites you found). However, Samantha from Bewitched is a married woman with a daughter of her own, and Jennifer from I Married a Witch is also a grown woman, whereas Sarii is a girl (shōjo)...


 * And fill in from there.


 * Something like that ought to fix the problem, yes?


 * Timothy Perper 22:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Notes 34 and 44 need references
Notes 34 and 44 in Combined need references...

Mechademia is in either Sandbox3 or Manga3.

I'm sorry to be such a pest about this!

Timothy Perper 22:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I found a ref that ties Sally and Bewitched together, but it doesn't go into as much detail as the original sentence. I changed the sentence, so see if it's still OK. - Peregrine Fisher 22:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've been holding off on the notes refs because I'm not sure what will happen, but I'll try it now and see if we have refs within refs. - Peregrine Fisher 22:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * New Sarii sentence is fine! Good catch! We'll see what happens to refs within refs. Worse come to worst, we could insert the names and dates. Timothy Perper 23:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) Worse has come to worst, nested footnotes don't render correctly. I don't know if there is a more official way, but the way it is now seems pretty good to me:
 * This section draws primarily on the work of Frederik Schodt (1986, 1996, 2007) and of Paul Gravett (2004). Time-lines for manga history are available in Mechademia, Gravett, and in articles by Go Tchiei 1998a.

We can just remove the "a" from 1998a, since the other Tchiei ref has links to all six parts of his manga history like the other web address we have. If you have a better formatting, tell me what to do or just go for it. - Peregrine Fisher 23:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Why doesn't that surprise me? Yes, use the sentences you just wrote for the footnote. The formatting is fine.


 * I've been chasing down tiny little glitches in Combined. We'll be ready to go live by Monday-Tuesday. I'm working on the next section, which will finish the shojo subsection.


 * Off to dinner now. Talk to you later.


 * Timothy Perper 00:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh -- before I go, I found a marvelous 4-panel manga in Sazae-san that not only shows her but also a kami-shibai street performer telling a story. So far it's the only image that I think might be worth using. I can email it to you if you like, and you can decide if including it is worth the trouble of doing a Fair Use application. Timothy Perper 00:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It might be best if we found something to illustrate the sentence "In Tezuka’s “cinematographic” technique, the panels are like a motion picture that reveals details of action bordering on slow motion as well as rapid zooms from distance to close-up shots." Since it talks about a visual aspect of manga.  If the panels illustrate "Hasegawa's focus on daily life and on women's experience also came to characterize later shojo manga."  That would be fine too.  Basically, the most "fair" use is when describing something visual.  I can probably find something for Tezuka if we need. - Peregrine Fisher 00:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I can send you some scans from Tezuka, but yes, look around on the web. There's a Japanese Tezuka site that may have useful stuff.

The real problem (sigh) is that I want to illustrate everything with pictures, lots and lots of them -- and I can't. I'll send you the kami-shibai image.

Timothy Perper 00:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I feel you. Adding images used to be my favorite thing to do before there was a big crack down about 5 months ago.  Anyways, although I earlier said 5 max fair use images, we can have a few more than that if they accompany cited sentences that specifically describe visual elements of manga.  So, keep you eyes peeled for that kind of info. - Peregrine Fisher 00:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Referencing the Easy Way
I was just checking the references in Combined, and it seems to me that you're doing some of them the hard way. Rather than use the accursedly complicated Wiki formatting "cite book" thing, you can simply copy the references I've already supplied and paste them between the refname and ref wedges.

Take a look at references 37 and 38 in Combined for what I mean.

The only things my references need -- the ones from the TP/Sandboxes and TP/Mangas -- are the various quotation marks to put "real quotes" around titles and to make book titles in italic.

It is MUCH simpler. And it works for all of them, though there may be tricks about getting hyperlinks I don't understand.

I do this kind of thing all the time for the book review column Martha and I edit for Mechademia -- we're stuck with formatting them.

Take a look and see if you don't agree it's faster and simpler. It also preserves all the information from the original reference, including all the embedded X in Y stuff.

I'll continue to check the references so you don't have to do anything about the ones that are in already. I'll do them.

Timothy Perper 06:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Note added later. I fixed the four "X in Y" refs I could find. They're OK now. Now I'll do the Hagio Moto reference (#48). Timothy Perper 07:21, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Either way is fine with me. If you want to create link to an outside URL, use single hard brackets with a URL, then a space, then whatever you want to link to say.  Ex.  Google home page produces Google home page. - Peregrine Fisher 07:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Great. I fixed Hagio Moto, but I have to get the ISBN to you. Timothy Perper 07:36, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Sandbox4
The content of Sandbox4 is now done. It will finish the shojo history subsection.

It needs more references, and if you feel so inclined, your web skills would be most useful!!

After this, we move to the history of shonen, which will be shorter.

Timothy Perper 21:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Did you find...
The Sanchez reference you wanted? It goes at the end of Combined.

The Uno reference is missing, but if you want, you can remove it or put a "citation needed" tag on it, and we'll fill it in the next day or so.

Are you going to overwrite the stuff below, e.g., the Tezuka section? I'll leave that up to you; if you want to overwrite, that's OK with me.

The shojo section is now nearly complete.

Timothy Perper 07:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Combined is almost ready to go
I fixed up several glitches on Combined, and added the Sanchez ref, though you might want to reformat it.

The only thing missing is the reference to Uno, and you could put in a "citation needed" tag.

After that, and if it reads OK with you, it's ready to go.

I have some earlier comments as well.

Timothy Perper 14:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Phil of the Future s01e08.jpg)
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I added the last reference to Combined
As far as I can tell TP/Combined is ready to go.

Sigh... that's a relief. So, check it for any formatting errors I may have made, and then it's ready.

All right. Way to go!

Timothy Perper 20:46, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I just checked the Manga article
I don't know if it's my browser or what -- but when I checked the manga entry just now, the only section we did that I could find was the Introduction and the Overview section.

It goes from there directly to Osamu Tezuka. None of the material on Manga after WW2 is there. Do you know why?

If it got deleted, then I'd like to know, because I'll just stop working on this.

Will you be adding the new material or is there some problem I don't know about?

Timothy Perper 00:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I hadn't added it, but it's there now. I'll start looking for images soon. - Peregrine Fisher 00:23, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I just checked, and so it is. *I* certainly ddn't add it in the past ten minutes. I have no idea what's going on. Is someone else doing this?
 * Can you look at the end of the shojo manga section on TP/Sandbox4 and give an opinion? If the content is OK, I can go ahead and format it. Is that OK with you?


 * Timothy Perper 00:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I wasn't clear. I hadn't added it previously, but I did add it.  To check this kind of thing, click on the "history" tab at the top of the page.  It will tell you what's changed, when it changed and who changed it.
 * User:Timothy Perper/Sandbox4 is looking pretty good. It would be nice if we could come up with more refs for it.  I'll look for some.  Although one can read the manga and reference the plot, it would be ideal if we had a ref doing the choosing for us.  We don't want people to just add there favorite manga because its plot fits.  The best way to stop this is to have a tighter inclusion criteria based on an external source. - Peregrine Fisher 01:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for putting it in!

I agree with you about not having people just adding their favorite manga (e.g., Daisuke the Ninja Boy -- whom I have made up as an illustration).

The references -- yes, by all means try to find some. "Inclusion" criteria will be useful, but no one has to agree with them. Then people will add Daisuke the Ninja Boy. It might be worthwhile to try to find some "exemplary plots" but I'm not sure anything reliable exists for such things in manga. That's the reason why I selected manga that (if you know them) surely DO meet the criteria for whatever kind of plot we're dealing with.

If this were anime, or if we could cite material about anime, then it'd be easier, because there are a number of books about anime that deal with plot types -- Napier, Drazen, Levi, Ruh, and so on.

The reason I did **not** supply a taxonomy of such plots is that I don't know of any in print or on trusworthy web sources. So that gets kicked out as OR.

I'm not sure there is any Wiki-compatible solution to this problem. If there isn't, then we can cut the examples, but that will make the section much thinner.

For example, the stuff about fashion manga, osharekei J-Pop music, street fashions, Gothic-Lolita styles, and live-action film: it's quite clear, and the street fashion/J-Pop writers know it, that these are all part of the same phenomenon. But finding a specific reference for manga, and only for manga -- that's harder.

Why don't you try your hand at it. I'm open to any suggestions you have.

Timothy Perper 01:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

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If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 05:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

More on Shojo Part 2
KyuuA4 with Seizure Dog's support just moved the old "Tezuka" section out of the Manga entry onto the discussion page. That's a relief -- it was really bad, that section. Now we have more room for more revision. I'm going to keep working on the new shojo material today. I have some ideas, heh-heh. There are some tricks to this, heh-heh. More later. I haven't forgotten that I'm supposed to send you a scan of some Sazae-san images. Timothy Perper 12:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

You're Right
You're right about not getting too involved in defining the inclusion criteria. But even so, please come and look at Sandbox4, because I trust your judgment about it. Besides which, there are some refs you might be able to come up with.

Once this part is OK with you, I'll transfer it to Manga4 and add all the references.

BTW, I emailed you a copy of an image from Sazae-san.

Timothy Perper 20:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I got the image. I'll add it in a bit.  I'm looking at Sandbox 4 and adding refs that I can find. - Peregrine Fisher 21:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've been looking for refs, but I can't find much on bildungsroman. Google books has a few refs with examples of it as it concerns boy love, but that's it.  Can you think of anything I can search for besides "coming of age" and bildungsroman? - Peregrine Fisher 21:35, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Bildungsroman is OK -- I've got two good references for it. I see where you added the references in Sandbox4, but I can't find them printed out anywhere. I checked them, and we have the Thorn reference already, but the others are good. Did you put the references somewhere or should I insert them from the webpage? Either way is OK with me.
 * Tomorrow, I'm going to shift this over to Manga4 and start formating the references and footnotes. More soon. Timothy Perper 01:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) I just added them as links so they can be found easily. I figured I'd convert them into full refs after the transfer to Manga 4. - Peregrine Fisher 01:32, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That's great. How do I edit the caption of the Sazae-san image? The caption should read "A kami-shibai story teller from Sazae-san by Machiko Hasegawa. Sazae is the woman with her hair in a bun."
 * And can you get rid of or move the Tezuka image from the Manga entry? I'll send a replacement that shows his cinematographic technique.
 * Timothy Perper 01:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Another question -- can I cite publisher's descriptions for these? If so, it'll be easy.Timothy Perper 02:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. When you want to edit an image caption, look for the image.  It looks like [[Image:Sazae-san kamishibai.jpg|thumb|right|A kami-shibai story teller from Sazae-san by Machiko Hasegawa. Sazae is the woman with her hair in a bun.]] .  The caption is set off with a pipe "|" character.  Anything you type that doesn't have a special significance like "right' (put on the right side of the page) or "thumb" (make it a thumbnail image) will be the caption.
 * Yes, you can cite publisher info. It's considered a primary source (I think), which can't be used to establish notability, but is fine if an article already considered notable, which manga is. - Peregrine Fisher 02:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

HUGE sigh of relief. I've added some URLs already, and I'll finish them tmw. That makes all the difference in the world. Some of these manga also have Wiki entries of their own, which give the plot outlines. OK, I'll be back tmw and finish off these refs. Then I'll start on the formatting. Onwards... Timothy Perper 02:46, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Much of Manga4 formatting is done
I formatted many, but not all, of the references in Manga4. The ones I didn't do were the URLs, since I wasn't sure what was needed (that includes the ones you found, which I inserted into the formatting). I decided (quite arbitrarily) that all we need for a publisher's description is the statement "Publisher's description at ---" and left it at that. The other URLs I wasn't so clear about -- they need stuff, I think.

There are a couple of references I still have to add -- that'll be done by tmw.

So, once you've repaired the URLs and stuff, and given it a look over, it'll nearly be ready to go! I'll want to give it a final look-over, but we're moving along.

I'm starting to work on the next subsections -- a short one on YAOI and then shonen.

Onwards!!

Timothy Perper 15:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The refs that could use your skills are for Yamaji Ebine and Vampire Knight.Timothy Perper 17:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you want me to move it over to Combined and start finishing off the refs? I'll start doing some of the URL refs in Manga4 while I wait for your reply. - Peregrine Fisher 17:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure, if it reads OK and stuff, that'd be great.Timothy Perper 17:50, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Page refs
Make the p12 or p13 reference pp.12-13. That'll settle *that*.

I tried to answer Hitsuji Kinno, who brought up Stuart Levy and TokyoPop on the Manga Talk page. I don't know which version she's talking about; it sure isn't ours. I'd like to hear further from her about it. I *certainly* agree that TokyoPop has a POV!!

I'll get the Grigsby reference in a little bit. I tried getting Vampire Knight on the Viz website, but it didn't load. I'll try it again.

OK, I'll be right back with Grigsby.

Timothy Perper 20:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * p. 12-13 it is.
 * She's talking about a part we haven't rewritten yet.
 * Out of curiosity, I checked the stats for the main pages views, and it gets 15 million views in a day! To get on the main page, manga has to be a featured article.  So, I figured I'd start looking up page numbers with google's book search, since that's one of the diabolical criteria.  I don't know how many views manga gets on a normal day, but Bleach (manga) gets 150,000, so it's probably more than 10,000.  Your work is going to be very widely read.  Probably a lot more than all the people who have ever read the various refs combined. - Peregrine Fisher 20:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, it sounds promising. I like Google book search, **especially** for a book like Schodt, which has a ***miserable*** index. I hope I didn't offend Hitsuji Kinno. She's raising a good point, but we're trying to deal with it...


 * Onwards. Meaning I'm going to try Vampire Knight again.


 * Timothy Perper 20:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Here's Grigsby
Grigsby, Mary 1999 "The social production of gender as reflected in two Japanese culture industry products: Sailormoon and Crayon Shinchan." In: John A. Lent, editor Themes and Issues in Asian Cartooning: Cute, Cheap, Mad, and Sexy. Bowling Green, OH: Bowling Green State University Popular Press. pp. 183-210. ISBN 0879727802.

That's designed to be pasted between  IN HERE.

Timothy Perper 20:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Done - Peregrine Fisher 20:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I vant to drink yhour blooood
Here's Vampire Knight from the Shojo Beat webpage.

http://www.shojobeat.com/manga/vk/

Timothy Perper 20:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Japanese for redisu, redikomi, josei
Here's the Japanese for the three. They can be popped in where we first give the words.

レディース = redisu; literally, ladies

レヂィーコミ = redikomi; literally, ladies' comics

女性   じょせい   = josei; literally, woman or women.

The first two are new words in Japanese, but the last is much older.

Timothy Perper 21:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The Title for 3.2.2
Rather than "part 2" can we call it something like "Shōjo Manga after the Mid-1970s"?

Or "Shōjo Manga and Redisu from 1975 to Today"?

Timothy Perper 21:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * or maybe "Shōjo Manga and Ladies' Comics from 1975 to Today"?


 * Timothy Perper 21:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I went with "Shōjo Manga and Ladies' Comics from 1975 to Today" and added the japanese words. - Peregrine Fisher 21:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm taking off for a bit
Martha's coming home soon, and I've got some chores to do.

I think I'll scan in and send you a copy of the earliest use of the term manga, from Kern's book. We could start with it.

Should we start removing more stuff from the old version to make space?

Timothy Perper 21:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Talk to you later. I'm not sure how to arrange the article.  It is getting kinda large.  Maybe if we talk about what the later sectoins are going to be, that will help us decide. - Peregrine Fisher 21:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'm back
My ISP crashed and left me without any Internet connections since about 6:30PM yesterday. A real bummer.

But the new shojo section seems fine. Put it in, and then we can get a sense of where we're going from here.

Next in this section was a brief section on YAOI, then on shonen manga. That'll finish the history/characteristics section. Then I was going to discuss how readers read and understand manga, some stuff about manga portrayals of people (with several pictures), how artists have used manga to build new kinds of cartooning elsewhere in the world, and then end with a summary of what's been written about the social and cultural origins and effects of manga. The common theme is How does manga affect people? There is LOTS of stuff in the literature about all this. And that was it.

But -- and there is a but -- it's also not obvious what's next, not because I don't know where the text is going (that I do know) but because outside of yourself, the comments I've gotten are all pretty negative. One person said I talk too much (I'm paraphrasing) and someone else lectured me about a sentence in the old version that I didn't write. I really don't care what teenagers think of me (or maybe a little older than that, but not much) but I can't work against them.

So let's put the final shojo section in and see what comes next.

Timothy Perper 08:04, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops. I forgot to mention that we have to do Manga Before WW2.


 * The reason the article is getting longer is that we're adding stuff but not taking any of the old stuff out. Most of the old material can be removed for cause -- meaning that it has no citations and is of doubtful reliability = NOT VERIFIABLE. It's therefore Original Research and could in principle simply be deleted. But I'd prefer to move, not delete stuff.


 * I'd start not deleting but MOVING the "International Influence" section = #6 because there is already a main article "Manga Outside Japan" that we could move it into lock, stock, and barrel.


 * Added later -- I put a note on the Manga Outside Japan talk page asking for opinions. (TP)


 * For "Language Notes" (#7) we lift the kanji for mangaka and put it into our new material, and then we just delete the section. It's redundant now.


 * Dojinshi (#4.1) can be moved completely into the Dojinshi article. 4.1 has no citations and is too short and inaccurate to be useful.


 * #8, See Also, is OK, at least for now.


 * #6.1, Genres, is pure Original Research.


 * #5.1, Types of Manga, is also pure Original Research as well as being too short to useful even as original research.


 * Here's what I suggest. Go through the old stuff and earmark sections for deletion for cause (not verifiable, original research) and then let's you and I compare notes. Then we post something to the Manga talk page warning people we're going to move and delete sections. Then, after a few days, we just move and delete. (In fact, I just did post something on the Manga talk page about all this.)


 * Also, many of the images can be deleted. They don't illustrate anything and they're not very good. The image of Tohru is silly -- the reference to moe in the caption is cockeyed.


 * How's that sound?


 * Timothy Perper 11:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I made my reply at Talk:Manga so hopefully we can get more people into the discussion. I did a word count on the body of the article and it's about 4,600 words.  Refs and see alsos don't count.  According to Article size, a count of 6000 - 10000 is OK, although closer to 6000 is better. - Peregrine Fisher 17:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That's about right, 5-10K words. At Mechademia, our main articles are supposed to be 5-6K words, but Mechademia publishes stuff that's on the shorter side. The reviews are a maximum of 2K words each.


 * If the new shojo section is OK from your side, you can put it in. Then we'll wait a few days for reactions to our suggestions for deletions and moves, and if there aren't any, then we go ahead moving them.


 * I did a scan of the 1798 book page that has the word "manga," but I'd rather use the bandwidth for some really gorgeous images that illustrate the "genres" section -- which I'm going to broaden to something like "Genres and Portrayals." I don't have a title yet.


 * Can you dig out the pre-WW2 stuff from the original article (from the history pages)? I want to edit it and add stuff. No big hurry; I have to do YAOI and shonen.


 * Onwards....


 * Timothy Perper 21:10, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's in. - Peregrine Fisher 21:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)